MovieChat Forums > Tengoku to jigoku (1963) Discussion > The Nightclub Scene

The Nightclub Scene

posted 14 years ago by nyjack
13 replies | jump to latest

A question on the nightclub and "opium den" sequence, one which by the way seemed to go on way too long playing up the obvious sensationalism of what was shown. The club appeared to have a fairly good number of what I assume to be American black people in it [from a local military base?] apparently mingling quite well with the locals. So, does this show a} how cool these Japanese are, dancing in an integrated place? b} how decadent these locals are, hanging out in the red-light district with foreigners? or possibly c} a dig at the US, as in 1963 such a scene would be difficult to imagine in most of America?

[–] jadow81 14 years ago

The club appeared to have a fairly good number of what I assume to be American black people in it [from a local military base?] apparently mingling quite well with the locals.

There are also good number of white people, why is your question is only about black people?

So, does this show a} how cool these Japanese are, dancing in an integrated place? b} how decadent these locals are, hanging out in the red-light district with foreigners? or possibly c} a dig at the US, as in 1963 such a scene would be difficult to imagine in most of America?

Could you explain why in 1963 such a scene would be difficult to imagine in most of America? I don't get it.
Are you talking about racism in America?

As to your question, it shows how that kind of places actually were at the time.
If there were no foreigners, it wouldn't look realistic.

In his commentary in Criterion DVD (at 1:59), Stephen Prince said:
"Viewers are probably be struck by all of the Americans in the bar.
They are American military personnel. Actual, real American military personnel.
Yokohama is one of Japan's major port cities,
and the Unites States has stations naval and military since the end of the World War II.
As well as nearby Yokosuka, another major port in Kanagawa prefecture.
(......)
In the '60s and early '70s, Yokohama's port facilities were mashed(?) into another American war,
supplying materials and American troops to Vietnam.
At that time, the peer service to average six military ships a day.
(......)
So, Kurosawa's depiction of a band of US military personnel in this scene,
is authentic for the period and the place."

BTW, that place was modeled on the real restaurant "Negishi-ya" in Yokohama (which doesn't exist today).
In a Japanese book on Kurosawa, some old fans talked about their visits to Negishi-ya.
They said its customers were quite varied in ethnicity.

[–] nyjack 14 years ago

Yes, in 1963 America there would be large parts of the country where a scene like that could not have happened and US military bases were just as racist in their social settings as the rest of the country. In the US at that time many people would have seen such a multiethnic social setting as hand in hand with drugs and other decadence. Kurosawa must have known that. Would that whole sequence have played similarly in Japan at the time?

[–] jadow81 14 years ago

Oh, what a fool I am. I didn't notice this movie was made shortly before the Civil Rights Act.

I watched the scene again to see how those Americans interacted.
There were indeed some black men interacted with white people, and they seemed to be having fun.
Now I think I can understand why it caught your attention.

I'm afraid I'm not a right person to answer your question.
I don't know how racism played in the lives of American soldiers stationed in Japan at that time.
(Any such American reading this?)

However, I still think it doesn't mean the filmmakers intended to say something
about American racism. It's a Japanese movie made for Japanese audience.

Stephen Prince said they were real American military personnel.
At least they agreed to do it together.
Of course you can argue they were paid to do it.
But I can't believe none of the crew (espceially Kurosawa himself)
asked them how they would do in such setting.
If white people replied "We never sit with blacks,"
Kurosawa would have splitted them for the sake of realism.

Just my opinion.

[–] nyjack 14 years ago

I guess what concerned me was what Kurosawa meant for that scene to say to Japanese audiences in 1963. Yes, there are what appear to be American white and black people in the bar/nightclub, but clearly the black Americans are highlighted more than the white ones. I admire Kurosawa's work and would hate to think in this case he stooped to using such [American?] stereotypes [1960s mixed social gatherings in a club with jazz and rock & roll yet, which certainly would have pushed a lot of American buttons at the time] to emphasize that scene's supposed decadence. Even today many Japanese animators insist on drawing black people to an outdated, racist American style.

[–] jadow81 14 years ago

I guess what concerned me was what Kurosawa meant for that scene to say to Japanese audiences in 1963.

In the red light district of Isazaki-cho, Yokohama, you see such multiethnic people. - That's all.

I thought "That's what I think" was not convincing,
so I posted a question in a Japanese forum,
asking what it was really like in Yokohama in 1963.

I've got a few feedbacks. Basically they supported my interpretation above,
and Japanese find no special meaning behind it.

The most notable feedback came from a man who was an elementary school boy back then.
(Although it might not be Yokohama, since he didn't want to tell where it was, for the sake of privacy.)
His aunt run a bar whose customers were Americans (mostly soldiers).
The bar was near his own home, so he freqently went there, because it had pinball machines.
He became a kind of "toy boy" for the bar's customers. They often gave him sweets and money.
From his experience, it's NOT rare to see black and white Americans came together.

Another person told what he heard from a man who run a bar in Yokosuka (near Yokohama)
during the Vietnam war (a little later than the period we are talking about).
He also said black and white soldiers came there together.
The bar had sevrral photos of such soldiers, in which you can see black and white together.

but clearly the black Americans are highlighted more than the white ones.

IMO it's rather subjective. Until you brought up this topic, the black people in this scene was less impressive to me than the white ones.
Actually, the big guy seen at the beginning of the scene was the only black person I remembered.

and would hate to think in this case he stooped to using such [American?] stereotypes (.....) to emphasize that scene's supposed decadence.

Stooped? Stereotypes? I don't understand.

Sure, the bar was not a place where decent people went.
But you can't say ALL American military personnel were decent.

The real "Negishi-ya" was, according to some Japanese who visited there,
filled with G.I.s, prostitutes, yakuza guys, and police detectives who watched them.

As you know, the drug dealers just took advantage of crowded place trying to make their exchange unnoticeable.
All the other people (black or white or yellow) were just talking, drinking, and dancing. What makes them "stereotypes"?
They were just extras to begin with. You can't expect "good character development" for extras.
And, since all the Americans were NOT actors, it's very likely they were just being themselves.

Even today many Japanese animators insist on drawing black people to an outdated, racist American style.

I have some opinions on this, but I'm afraid it would deviate too much from the OT, and the movie.
I think Anime Board is an appropriate place to discuss this topic.

[–] liscarkat-2 13 years ago

I'll pretend that I don't even understand your questions, then I'll appear to be so incredibly PC that my image doesn't even register in mirrors or on film.

[–] Error_message 13 years ago

There was also Korean writing and (presumably) Koreans. I actually wonder a bit if the girl that he danced with was Korean. But I think I'm reading too much into it. It's just a place where one would go to get drugs.

[–] franzkabuki 13 years ago

"Seemed to go on way too long playing up the obvious sensationalism of what was shown".

I thought all of it was just pretty calmly observed; much different from later American movies such as Midnight Cowboy or Klute, of which newfound licence to portray the "naughty night club scene" was blatantly exploited to give things this somewhat silly "hip", "in-with-the-kids" vibe.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

[–] gribfritz2 8 years ago

I think it was pretty obvious that there were no Americans to be seen anywhere....EXCEPT the large group of them dancing their lives away and mingling with all the drug addicts and other scum. Not subtle at all.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Kawada_Kira (7269) 2 years ago

What a stupid comment. In the first place, the foreign population of Tokyo is very small compared to the native Japanese population (there are a lot of foreigners, but the native population is huge, bigger than many small countries; we're talking about one of the biggest urban areas in the world here), so while you would see foreigners around, they wouldn't be a great abundance in comparison with the native population. Especially in the 1960s. Secondly, most of the movie isn't set in locations with large concentrations of people; much of it is set at Gondo's house or the police station. How many Americans would you expect to see hanging around Gondo's house? Thirdly, the club in question clearly just happens to be a club that was popular with US military personnel. The sequence was filmed in an actual club, not a set. Those people weren't actors who were deliberately placed there; they were extras, people who were there anyway and were told to just keep doing as they were doing. There was no insinuation of foreigners and drugs. The only characters in the movie who were portrayed as being involved with drugs were Japanese. Finally, nearly all of the people in the club would have been just ordinary people, not druggies. The drug dealers would have been using that place precisely because they could hide in a crowd of normal people there and look normal.

Also, "dancing their lives away"? It's just people enjoying an evening out, it doesn't mean they're somehow spending their whole lives there.

Xenophobia is certainly a big problem in Japan, but that doesn't mean it needs to be read into every little thing.

[–] TheArgentinian (6484) 3 years ago

Seeing brothers having a good time shocked me. Japanese dancing with POC while in their home country they were segregated. SMH.

[–] Stratego (29327) 10 months ago

"A question on the nightclub and "opium den" sequence, one which by the way seemed to go on way too long"

That I actually agree with. It really dragged the movie down.

You're ridiculous, the movie wasn't trying to say anything about black Americans. The Westerners in that scene are most likely real US military personnel. Now did it try to say anything about those folks? I don't know, but it does seem the movie wanted to make the point that seedy areas are at least frequented by US military personnel.