and the most primal....goes to a place in the ooze where no one is good, no one is bad, everyone reduced to the elemental jungle trash dance where the loser is privileged to experience only the most excoriating, utterly scabrous humiliation ever inflicted on a cinematic character. And he left home without it.
shareLet's put it this way, before seeing this movie, I'd have NEVER guessed that Elia Wallach of all people could be so sexual on film!
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it didn't really turn me on particularly cause i'm not into young girls but i thought it was a very good raw film for it's time.
shareRIGHT? I am so disappointed that he was never like this in anything else.
shareI can agree with that.
sharei agree. its only rival for such a title would be "gilda".
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Why do straight guys imagine that a 16 yr old teen acting like a idiot/child and sleeping in a crib with a thumb in her mouth is sexy?
Do you all want to have sex with infants ...or just statutory rape a 16 yr old?
Pretty sick.
It's all just bubble and squeak.
sharewhy would anyone imagine that it is the "crib scene" that straight guys find particularly sexy? check out the "swing" scene the "stationary car" scene not to mention "pot liquor". baby doll was a 19 yr old and although not the sharpest tool in the box never acted like an idiot. i found carroll baker's portrayal to be coquettish rather than child like. marilyn monroe's most famous roles projected a similar persona. however, if you insist on "childlike" i'm not going to take issue with you. as for "sex with infants" i agree that that is pretty sick if what you mean by "infant" is a pre-pubescent female but then this has nothing to do with the movie "baby doll". when it comes to straight guys wanting/fantasizing about sex with 16 yr olds i can only say that it is far more common than many people imagine but cannot accept that this is in any way sick.
shareexactly what's so wrong about having sex with a 16 year old girl if you are in your 20s, 30, or 40s or older???!!! you know hundreds of years ago it was completely acceptable for a young 16 year old or younger girl to be married to a 40 year old man
shareYeah and teen boys slept with older women too. Still do. I knew girls in HS who dated guys in their 20's as juniors and seniors. But a guy in his 30's or 40's liking a teenage girl is sick. The same with a woman of that age lusting after a young guy. But human nature is what it is.
share16 years old? The character goes from 19 years and 363 days old to 20 years old. The actress was 25.
shareHaving just noticed "Baby Doll" on the Comcast guide (on tonite at 10, TCM), I decided to look into the movie here on IMDB. I read this thread and as soon as I saw:
"Why do straight guys imagine that a 16 yr old teen acting like a idiot/child and sleeping in a crib with a thumb in her mouth is sexy?
Do you all want to have sex with infants ...or just statutory rape a 16 yr old?
Pretty sick."
I thought I would respond but you (obviously) beat me to it.
What's sick about a man being turned on by an attractive lady???
I'm curious about the opening words of the post "Why do straight guys"...
Even if she were 16, I would find it far less "sick" to be tempted by a young (19 year old played by a 25 year old in reality) lady rather than any age same sex attraction. (btw, I am not homophobic.)
Be it genetic or psychological, it's an illness to me.
Ponderous.
Memo from the I've-got-news-for-you-department: You are most definitely homophobic. Just listen to yourself!
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<<<<< Why do straight guys imagine that a 16 yr old teen acting like a idiot/child and sleeping in a crib with a thumb in her mouth is sexy? >>>>>
Ok, make me sidetrack first....*sigh*
First off, the character was TWENTY years old (maybe you didn't actually watch the film - or were too distracted by the sexy babe to pay attention to the dialogue?). Ms. Baker was, at the time, 25 years old. Get over it.
Substitute an older female character or actress....still super-charged steam in this movie!
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Why do straight guys imagine that a 16 yr old teen acting like a idiot/child and sleeping in a crib with a thumb in her mouth is sexy?
Do you all want to have sex with infants ...or just statutory rape a 16 yr old?
Pretty sick.
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As many people have pointed out she was 19. But you missed the point, it is hot NOT because she is is immature, it is the sexual frustration from Archie Lee, the sexual awakenings of Baby Doll, Vacarro's flirting and the interactions between the three main characters.
It is a good old fashioned film based on dialogue and great acting which builds up the tension without showing too much. I find Vacarro especially sexy!
The actress Carroll Baker was 25 in this movie. Her character was 20. I'm sorry if you find that perverted, but that says more about you than anyone on these boards or Tennessee Williams, who was a giant of a writer. Her behavior in the movie was a construct of her caretaker, and, sure, was included to emphasize her being owned by Malden's character, but also her manipulation in return. Of course, all you can see is the nastiness. Sail your Puritan boat back to oblivion.
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Getting back to this topic, I just watched The Reluctant Debutante (released only two years after Baby Doll), starring Sandra Dee. In the movie, which is a comedy of manners, Ms. Dee plays a young woman who has just "come out". She loves a young man played by John Saxon (about age 27, playing age 23). In the movie, he wins her love and they share a few tender kisses (after all it is Sandra Dee, so she is "lousy with virginity")and decide to marry. Since the dialogue is performed with proper British accents and the décor is lavish, I suspect, I don't think you are going to find anyone questioning the propriety of the relationship between the girl and the man. Sandra does a remarkable job of acting for a young girl. But why do people seem to think it is more proper to marry off young girls when the prospective husband has been vetted for class and wealth? The really interesting thing about this is that Dee's mother misled the studios into believing that Sandra was older than she was. An imdb board for The Reluctant Debutante says she was only 14 when making the film. I think that may be wrong, but she was age 16 at the most. And when you see her on screen--despite her acting ability--no one could doubt that she was that young. Not to get too far off-track, but I thought the two films make an interesting contrast, however you view the topic.
shareexactly, I really don't understand what's wrong with wanting to have sex with a 16 year old or even 14 or 13 year old. I mean women at 13 are sexy. just watch Wanda Nevada with Brooke Shields to totally find this out. or watch diane lane in a little romance to totally find this out.
shareOn the mark and not just by 1956 standards or the child-virgin thing. Kazan has carefully sensualized evry shot to maximize it's erotic content given the structure of the play and content of the lines. He skillfully stayed "within the lines" of each character but underscored the sexuality of each as well. Malden's opening sequence hole-punching's perversity is heightened still further when you learn this young thing is actually his wife! A man his age peering at a female her age has built-in perversity and is a superb prelude to the viewer's entry into the no-man's land of William's - Kazan sensuality. In it's way it is a fantastic exploration of the lustful mind of the male creature set against the background of the forever after exploited South. More later.
shareYour comment about "a man his age peering at a female her age has built-in perversity" made me think of Bogart and Bacall. Did anyone think Key Largo was perverse? Or their relationship off screen? Lol.
shareOr their relationship off screen?
I agree with you. I did not express an opinion. I asked a question. I would hope that most people would agree that the Bogart/Bacall relationship, both onscreen and off, was reasonable, not perverse. But I am sure there is someone out that who thnks otherwise. I merely wanted to point out to critics of the relationship in Baby Doll that there are other models of relationships with the same age difference--and to condemn one was to condemn the other.
I hope others understood what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
If that's where you were coming from (and, going back and rereading your post, I can see it that way now, I fully can see that you were kind of taking altovista1904 to task a bit on the comment of his), then I apologize, too, for not getting what you meant.
I guess when you wrote that altovista's comment "made me think about Bogart and Bacall", for whatever reason, I took it as someone who was perhaps on the fence, or not committed to either side, kind of reflecting on the matter, and suggesting another couple with a big diff in age, albeit one that would almost surely be at least somewhat more accepted than Malden/Baker, and then wondering aloud if THAT relationship (either the onscreen/Key Largo one, or the real life one) would be considered "perverse"....in other words, really wondering yourself, you yourself not sure how you felt about it...I think it was the "or their relationship off screen" part that set me off, honestly, but I can easily read the post again with the understanding in mind beforehand that you don't believe there's anything perverse there at all in the age difference...... that the question was posed by you (someone not on the fence at all) almost rhetorically, ie, a translation of your question could be "you wouldn't think KEY LARGO was perverse, would you?? Or Bogie/Bacall's relationship off screen was perverse? So why do you characterize the other relationship as such?" Same question, word-wise, both times, but it can provoke a different response when one doesn't know the mindset beforehand, that's all.
As far as the onscreen relationships discussed here go, I don't think the age difference is the main reason why someone might think of the Baby Doll one as, if not in ways perverse, at least not quite right, or how it should be, but be fine with Key Largo....while for a lot of people, age difference would be the main consideration, for me at least, I see something rotten about the former, but not due to the age difference between Baby Doll and Archie Lee, but instead the fact that the whole marriage is built entirely upon Archie Lee's lust, and Baby Doll's "beggars can't be choosers" financial reality (dead parents/probably no real job skills, no money, etc)....he's taking advantage of her situation, and at the same time, she's not exactly a choir girl, either...it's all about money, there's no actual love here from either of them...and that would apply no matter their ages. Bogart/Bacall, in that regard, is completely different!
Yes, I could have worded that differently. And, in fact, I was going to say it that way at first. But I decided not to, because I knew that if I said, "you wouldn't think Key Largo was perverse, would you?" it would be assuming something that was not true. If I have learned anything from the posts on imdb, it's that there is someone to disagree with any point of view. Take any movie and there will be people who think it's great and people who think it's garbage. It never fails. So, I am SURE there are people who think such a great age difference is bad, no matter the circumstance. But there might be someone out there who, reflecting upon the reality of relationships like Bogie & Bacall, might change his mind. Also, I was hoping that Key Largo (also To Have and Have Not, The Big Sleep, or Dark Passage) might be a film appreciated by many. The fact is that Bacall was 19 when she and Bogart first fell in love--the same age as Baby Doll. Bogart was 44. Interestingly, Bogart's nickname for her was "Baby".
Thanks for your comments.
I don't think atlasmb was saying anything the wrong way as it should be taken; I find the one replying didn't "get the comment." He/she was just observing and asking a conclusive question. Bacall was a very sophisticated young lady when she met Bogart (did anybody see Dark Passage?? She had the confidence and the coolness in that film to be a believable 40-something!)
As for Baby Doll, yes maybe the set-up was perverse as it was about an older man who couldn't wait to take his poor young wife's virginity (I much prefer Malden when he played a "gentleman".. such as in William's Streetcar)... but is there anything perverse about an older man being attracted to a much younger (adult) female? Perhaps only if that's the ONLY WAY HE GOES. I see it all the time in real life and even reality TV, like on Millionaire Matchmaker. Those ones are the true SCUM. My hubby is about 20 years my senior, for example, but his departed ex-wife was his age. Knowing that he doesn't have Peter Pan Syndrome is actually what makes him sexy in my book... I doubt Bogart had any fetishes, or maturity problems either.
Just sayin'...
Uh...as the one replying who "didn't get the comment", I already publicly apologized to atlasmb (post on Feb 9, 2013 at 18:44:41) for exactly that, and atlasmb and I came to a mutual understanding and even thanked me for my comments, so I fail to understand why, over a month later, you've decided that piling on is in order? There certainly was no debate raging anymore, even mildly; everything you posted above was already dealt with, and it was a dead issue, at that point, or should have been...
> As for Baby Doll, yes maybe the set-up was perverse as
> it was about an older man who couldn't wait to take his
> poor young wife's virginity (I much prefer Malden when he
> played a "gentleman".. such as in William's Streetcar)...
> but is there anything perverse about an older man being
> attracted to a much younger (adult) female?
my opinion: of course not. I don't think the movie viewer is supposed to be put off by Vacarro's attraction to Baby Doll, for instance, and he's not in Baby Doll's age group at all. Again, what makes it perverse isn't the attraction alone, it's the fact that the marriage isn't built upon anything BUT that attraction/lust (Malden plays up the smarminess of this in typical genius fashion in his portrayal).
Incidentally, I don't think Tennesee Williams meant for the character of Mitch in Streetcar to be regarded as a "gentleman," exactly....he's far from that, but in comparison to his rougher and less sensitive card pals, he seems like one to Blanche (or, with some mind power, she feels she can create that illusion, something she's good at). There IS some decency in Mitch, but when he told Blanche to her face, coolly and with no emotion whatsoever, that he didn't want to marry her anymore, but that he wouldn't mind sleeping with her, well, I think we have to take his "gentleman card" away from him at that point.
As much as I liked his Archie Lee, I agree his Mitch is even better. One of the most underrated actors of all time, imo.
This was briliant!
shareWhen this film was first released it created a ruckus.
shareHO - LY SMOKES!!!
***sizzle!!!***
I think the thumb in the mouth thing was going too far on Kazan's part. You never see her suck her thumb elsewhere in the film. I suppose it made for a great poster, but it kind of misrepresents the character.
What the OP said about Malden's humiliation was right. I felt sorry for him. He thought he was a good, upstanding citizen who got to have a sexy young wife in middle age. He "earned" it by letting her wait for intimacy till she was 20. And that's generally what his society wanted him to think. But his luck ran out. In a way, Vaccaro represents the "cruel world." We develop delusions about ourselves, and then reality knocks them down.
You can also see how this movie is moving towards a changed South. That old social order, with white supremacy, is about to break down. Blacks are on the sidelines, laughing at the silly things whites do, but unable to intervene in any way.
"Extremism in the pursuit of moderation is no vice."
I agree that the thumb in the mouth was way over the top, and not accurately representative of her character anyway. For years I had been under the impression that she was a minor because of that image, but she was an adult, albeit a virginal one. And the studio further exploited the image with the giant billboard in Times Square, compete with a live thumb-sucking model Talk about bad public relations.
I think the marketing of this film probably contributed to the Legion of Decency's condemnation. Did they even see the film, or just the poster and trailer? This is a very steamy film, but hardly explicit even by '50s standards. The fact that were left to interpret whether Baby Doll ever lost her virginity is defense enough.
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I'm sure Cardinal Spellman had more on his plate than seeing a movie promoting the heterosexual lifestyle. Let's see: rooting out Communists, opposing civil rights, endorsing Richard Nixon, supporting Vietnam ...
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I don't see it, maybe because I'm a woman. I thought she was a frigid, cold pain in the butt.
"Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"
The movie definately had one of the hottest kiss scenes I ever saw. There was just so much passion between the two.
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