MovieChat Forums > Oklahoma! (1956) Discussion > Anyone else sympathize with Jud?

Anyone else sympathize with Jud?


I hate how all the plot descriptions call Jud "evil" and a "villain"--I think he's more of a tragic character. All he wants is a girl to share his lonely life with, and until the end when he gets desperate, he seems like a nice guy. Laurey rejects him only because he's an unsophisticated hired hand--something that's not his fault. What do you guys think?

Of course, this may be because I'm a huge Phantom of the Opera fan, and am seeing a few parallels between the Jud/Laurey/Curly and Phantom/Christine/Raoul love triangles...anyone else notice this?

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'Scuse me while I beat this here dead horse.

Jud is a tragic character, yet he is also the evil character of the story. And guess what...that makes him conflicted! You can't have drama without conflict.

He's tragic of course in the sense that no one likes him because of his low social status and his uninviting appearance, and this treatment can be blamed for his surly, belligerent attitude towards everyone and their mother, it seems...'cept Laurey.

I have no doubts that he is the one who set fire to the house and killed the family. There is too much detail in his story to Curly and the whole 'the other fella tol' me...' bit isn't convincing. And of course his use of fire to try and kill Curly and Laurey is just a little too continuitous to be a coincidence, don't you think? Of cooouuurse it could be a device used by the writers to make you THINK that Jud did it but actually he really didn't...but we all know he did.

Now see...Jud does have a soft spot, but...only for Laurey and himself it seems. During his and Curly's duet it's obvious that he thinks he's incredibly misunderstood and deserves better treatment (which, arguably he does), but Curly does say something about getting out of that hole he lives in, getting away from the erotic pictures and the alcohol, and 'doin somethin healthy for a change'. So the way I see it, it ain't entirely the territory folk's fault for treatin Jud they way they do...the rat kinda brings it on himself and does nothing to break out of his vicious cycle.
And of course it's obvious he cares for Laurey and it does break my heart a little the way the naive little twit treats him. But the language he uses when speaking about her is very possessive and not exactly the way a woman wants to be thought of. And fellas...unless you're sure that a girl wants you, don't grab her and try to kiss her or hug her. Even Curly doesn't do that, and they both know that she'd melt right into his arms like butter on a biscuit. Sensitive, delicate little prairie farm girls generally don't like to be manhandled (unless it's Ado Annie o' course).

So to answer your initial question, risa, I both have sympathy for Jud, and hate his guts at the same time. And I don't get any of the Phantom connections, but that's an interesting association.

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[deleted]

But what does R&H give us instead? Yeah, Curly is the arrogant quarterback, Laurey the spoiled head cheerleader and Jud the outsider, the "loser" from the wrong side of the tracks. But here, Laurey uses Jud to his death with absolutely no consequence for her.
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Laurey doesn't use Jud. Jud probably kept asking and asking and asking her to go to the box social with him. Jud was a peeper, it's hinted he murdered an entire family by fire, and he did try and murder Curly. He even threatens Curly for even being interested in Laurey. When Curly gets rejected by Laurey, he doesn't decide to kill her. When Laurey changes her mind about Jud, he wants to kill her. What kind of a person does that? Given Jud's non-stop antisocial attitude, I'm only surprised the townspeople were as friendly to him as they were. Not once did Jud ever try to meet them half way. It's to Rodgers and Hammerstein's credit that we at least understand Jud. Bottom line is, he's an anti-social killer. There should be no happy ending for someone like that. There wasn't for his victims, and if Jud had his way, there'd have been no happy ending for Curly.







Absurdity: A Statement or belief inconsistent with my opinion.

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[deleted]

You have to agree that the story as written is not the "sweetness and light" you normally expect from a musical.
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R&H frequently discussed the darkness of the Jud character. Without his storyline, the rest of the show would have been all froth and bubbles.







Absurdity: A Statement or belief inconsistent with my opinion.

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[deleted]

I almost always sympathize with the villains, too, but Jud came across as a mentally ill pervert (hence the erotic pictures and spying in the window). He tried to take advantage of Laurey in the carriage, and she was definitely nice enough to him before then, going to him when he was sick. She tried to get out of the social engagement with Jud in the beginning of the movie, but he started threatening her. She may have been "using him" when she agreed to go with Jud, but she was tactful enough to go through with it until Jud tried to hold her. It's implied in the dance scene that Jud raped Laurey, or something to that extent to make her "impure" along with the other burlesque dancers. Those who knew him for who he was probably didn't miss him. And, since he never came out of his hole, the others in society didn't know them and thus also probably didn't feel very sorry at the loss. I didn't really see any friction between Jud and everybody else that he didn't cause by ostracizing himself.

"Remember men, we're fighting for this woman's honor, which is probably more than she ever did."
- Duck Soup

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[deleted]

Seriously, when Curly starts taunting Jud in the smokehouse, I sympathize with Jud for like 5 seconds...

And then he turned into a psycho.....!

LOL


LIZ 10:“I’m the bloody Queen, mate. Basically, I rule.”Dr.Who

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[deleted]

He started talking about that fire and catching the girl in the barn with another man and getting revenge. He was talking about himself...psycho.

LIZ 10:“I’m the bloody Queen, mate. Basically, I rule.”Dr.Who

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[deleted]

Jud is clearly a mentally disturbed person. The dream sequence wants the audience to realize that emotional disturbance. When Laura uses Jud to manipulate Curly, she is clearly in over her head, as is anyone who deals with a psychopath. He's not misunderstood outsider. He's an outsider by his willingness to commit murder--at least twice in the film story and once as background. His homeliness and lowly status don't make him an outsider, his willingness to murder does.

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steven torrey,
I agree, and I see the attempts to excuse him as one of our society's greatest failings: providing an excuse for almost any kind of antisocial behaviour because of disadvantages in the perp's life. Many of us have less than ideal lives, but most of us do not commit crimes against others.

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I always thought Jud got a raw deal through most of the movie and then because of this he decided he'd treat all of them like they've treated him - as worthless and not deserving to live.

Laurey thoughtlessly uses him to make the man she likes jealous, then she regrets her decision and lets him know she's thinking about rejecting him, then the other guy shows up and at the very least insults him constantly and maybe tries to get him to kill himself, then just because Laurey has a strange dream she rejects him when he wants to profess his feelings for her, then she nearly kills the two of them in a bratty rejection, then she steals his horses and wagon and leaves him miles from the party, he then walks all that way there to bid on her basket and EVERY SINGLE PERSON THERE gangs up against him to try to prevent him from buying her basket, despite offering his entire life's savings, which was a small fortune then.

Yes, he is antisocial and may or may not have done bad things in the past. By this point, though, even the most well adjusted person would be thinking murderous thoughts. Yes, his actions at the end are unforgivable, but it's not like he just woke up one morning and decided to set fire to the farm and kill people.

I do see him as a tragic figure, up until the time he lashed out at all the people who had been hurting him.


"My name is Paikea Apirana, and I come from a long line of chiefs stretching all the way back to the Whale Rider."

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[deleted]

During my most recent viewing of this film, for the first time, I saw Jud as a character with low self esteem. He is definitely "tragic", as you describe him. Jud is unloved, feels unappreciated. In the original Oklahoma!, there was a song sung by Jud, while alone, in the smokehouse. The title was mentioned in the DVD commentary and has been forgotten by me. It expresses his feelings of loneliness.

The scene where Curly meets Jud in the smokehouse was not in the stage show. But it was written into the movie because Curly is presented as the heroic, likeable love interest for Laurie. He is in contrast to the dark, brooding, threatening Jud. Curly is somewhat brave too, invading Jud's space while the latter has a gun and needling him during the darkly humorous "Poor Jud is Dead".
He knows Jud wants Laurie, and leaves no doubt there that he is setting himself up as Jud's rival for her. That begins a tension, that sets the stage for later.


Jud is talking about himself as he describes the burning of the neighbors' farmhouse. By not admitting it, but with the closeup showing his repressed anger
and feelings of being spurned, he gives a suspense to the scene.

His true character is revealed in the first dramatic climax, when he assaults Laurie on the way to the party. One might want to shout to him why he acts the way he does if he wants to be accepted. However, as Curly and Laurie are being married in Aunt Eller's home, he looks through the window at the happy gathering, a total outcast. That's when I felt sorry for him.


It is significant that we first see Jud under a shadow, with his back to the camera. He is the only character who makes a first appearance that way.

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I first saw this movie with my Mom when I was 12. I never had a bit of sympathy for Jud. He is a psycho who very likely killed a girl and her family because she rejected him. Not only that he looks dirty and greasy, and hangs out in the smokehouse looking at dirty pictures. I hadn't seen this movie for years and just watched it this morning. I still find him repellent with no redeeming qualities.This is the first movie in which I ever saw Rod Steiger. I suppose because of it I have never cared for him. If you think about it, he played a similarly slimy (albeit more urbane)character, Victor Kamarovsky, in "Doctor Zhivago".
I'm sure Steiger was a brilliant actor, though.

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[deleted]

Laurey is young and coquettish as most girls of her age are even now. She would have gone to the dance with Jud (and that is all she said she'd do; it's not as though she agreed to go steady with him). Until he made the pass at her on the way, she had no reason to suspect any harm of him or that he was interested in her that way. After he made his move on a deserted road, she had reason to fear him, and pushed him out of the carriage. She did the right thing for her own protection.
There is no excuse for Jud's conduct.

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