PRICE TERRIBLY MISCAST(spoilers) - Laura Discussion

[–] ZolotoyRetriever 8 years ago

I'm guessing the other young men were off fighting in WWII, so they had to settle for a guy like Vincent Price. BTW, how old is your mom?

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[–] Gubbio 8 years ago

To me, the role required either someone very hot or someone with boyish charm and vulnerability to make all those women feel for him. Price is neither. I think he was a very weak link in this movie.

Aside from appearance, the script is very weak in explaining what a reputedly intelligent girl like Laura saw in this weak ne'er-do-well. He doesn't seem to have any positive qualities to offer. He seemed so far beneath her on so many levels.

A contributing factor for many's disdain of Price as Shelby is that by the time we saw this older film, many of us were used to him from his 1950's horror cycle.

It's a little disconcerting to accept him as a "leading man type." At least, it was for me, and I still find him an anomaly in the part.

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[–] Missyrocks 8 years ago

I completely agree. Contractual obligations in addition to the fact that the film was completely re-cast, new director, etc may have led to choosing him. Even so, objectively, Price wasn't handsome and certainly didn't have the vulnerability quality where women would want to take care of him, to me. Maybe it was Because he was with that studio or the casting couch! Hah! Yes, it was poorly written to have her offer him a job after speaking to him for 30 seconds. And all those women fighting over him. To me, it was ludicrous.

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[–] Gubbio 8 years ago

Because he was with that studio or the casting couch! Hah!

I've always joked that Waldo and Shelby should have ditched Laura and gone out dancing! 😨

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[–] Missyrocks 8 years ago

Hah! That may well have actually happened in real life!

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

I thought that he was fine. He did have a bit of an annoying voice, but he was fine for the part. I wouldn't say he was all that great looking, but I think that the character was the type who somehow knew how to get women to look at him. It's not always the best looking and the richest guys who can do it, either. A former friend of mine was married (very briefly) to this one loser who had had several girlfriends in the past. How he latched on to so many women is beyond me. So it does happen in the real world. I think that those types know the right thing to say and that does the trick.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

When Webb describes Price as "a male beauty (!) in distress", I always
howl. Price??? A beauty? I don't think so, but it's all subjective.
In the Price bio, which is included in the DVD, Price is considered
tall and handsome. Well, he certainly was tall...

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

Price's character knew exactly how to market himself, even though he wasn't good looking. Being tall sure helped him, IMHO.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

To me, Price was too tall, towering over everyone around him, including
the men. I just never found him attractive at all. The character of
Shelby certainly didn't help - what a social-climbing WORM.

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

In the real world, the Shelby-types seem to have a lot of social status. I don't know why. I think they are successful with social climbing (look at how Shelby succeeded with Laura), and they are able to cover up their lousy personalities quite well (at least for awhile). It took Laura some time to see his true nature.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

But Laura isn't much better. She herself uses Waldo, knows full well how
he feels about her, yet she has no problem going out with other men after
she has succeeded in her career and he is no longer necessary. All the
characters, in fact, are ice cold people, some better than others. Even
handsome Mark isn't someone one would want as a close pal. I wouldn't.

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

Good point about Laura, but I think that Mark was okay. What did he do that was so wrong, personality-wise?

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

He was cold, sarcastic and moody. I also don't believe he and Laura
knew each other well enough (in, 24-plus hours?) to truly know if
they were in love by the end of the film.

One thing that interests me: If we are to assume Mark and Laura wed,
would they have continued to socialize with Anne and Shelby, who
undoubtedly wound up a couple? I doubt it. I think the horrors that
bound them all in the film (plus Mark's understandable loathing of
Shelby) would've driven the couples apart to maybe distant letters at
the most (between Laura and Anne).

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

Well, it's not like they were getting married at the end. They exchanged a kiss, but if the film had continued, they might have dated for awhile before marrying (if they married at all).

Socializing with Anne and Shelby in the future would have been awkward. For one thing, Anne is Laura's aunt and the relationship between Anne and Laura wasn't an aunt-niece relationship at all. They seemed more like two unrelated women competing for the same guy. If Anne winds up with Shelby, then she is basically dating her niece's ex. Very weird. All that, plus the murder of a woman who slept with Shelby (or she was about to) would just be too much. The two couples would probably distance themselves from each other.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

We seem to be saying the same thing. And, yes, I believe the film wants
us to believe (as it usually does in 1940s cinema, film noir included)
that Mark and Laura would wind up married (I didn't mean a day after
the case wrapped).

Laura and Anne WERE related, so I believe the couples (and, yes, Shelby
and Anne are obviously bound together) would have a very distant
relationship, but Laura would still occasionally write to her aunt.

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

The relationship between Anne and Laura would be extremely strained and forced.

What about other family members, I wonder? Laura called Anne her aunt. Was Anne the sister of Laura's mom or Laura's dad? Were her parents still alive? Did they know that all this was going on?

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

I'm always curious about the line in Anne's first meeting with Mark.
She claims (sincerely) that she "adored" Laura. Was she acting for
Mark's sake, so she wouldn't be a suspect? Or was she revealing her
true feelings. I mean, later, when Anne is putting on her lipstick with
Laura, she murmurs "I'm not a nice person, Laura." And, then..."No,
Dear, I didn't....but I THOUGHT about it." Perhaps from that point
onward, these two women can never have the same relationship.

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

Somehow, I don't think that the two of them ever had a good relationship. They probably came from a very dysfunctional family where these kinds of problems were the norm (well, not the murder, but the rest of it). In the movie, they didn't seem close at all.

Laura does reference her mother briefly. She says something like, "My mother listened sympathetically to my dreams of having a career, and then she taught me another recipe." The mother sounds like she was clueless about what her daughter was doing.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

I forgot about the line while she's cooking breakfast.

Again, I don't think Laura is a particularly nice person either.
Nothing wrong with her ambition, but she's a real user herself. Only
GT's beauty and class disguise this somewhat in her performance.

In so many ways, it's a very, very chilly film (nobody seems to really
care about poor Diane Redfern's demise, although her meeting Shelby
at LAURA'S apartment, wearing LAURA'S shoes and nightgown...! Ugh,
another cold-as-ice character. One we never meet, but FEEL).

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[–] Gubbio 8 years ago

There's an older thread here about Laura's and Mark's possible future:

http://tinyurl.com/h69baae

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[–] Gubbio 8 years ago

Frank Chacksfield and His Orchestra ~ Laura

http://tinyurl.com/gugyosq

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[–] AliciaHuberman59 8 years ago

Thanks so much for posting, Gubbio. Just beautiful!

In the youtube video's accompanying photomontage, the photo still of Laura and Shelby speaking on the terrace at Ann's party shows Price looking very handsome and very much the leading man. A picture's worth a thousand words, but it's not the whole story!

Someone mentioned further up the thread that Price may have been chosen due to other actors serving in the war. This was certainly the case in Hollywood (Gable and Stewart come to mind) and in real life, as well.

Shelby strikes me as being the perfect "Walker", and that's not so much a reference to his sexuality as it is to his knowing what to say and do as a male escort to a powerful and/or wealthy woman.

"No, I don't like to cook, but I have a chicken in the icebox, and you're eating it."

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

Price, the actor, had class and he was sort of "ascot" debonair. But
he simply was not conventionally handsome enough for me to buy
that all these women would fall for Shelby when he wasn't even employed!

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

Laura seems like she's from a very messed up family. Okay, at first she uses Waldo to move up in her profession, but afterwards, she seems completely hooked on him. This young woman hanging out so much with a guy about 60 (and a major weirdo at that) and letting him control her...what does that way about her background? Was she having major daddy issues or something?

And then her reaction to her aunt saying "No dear, I didn't, but I thought about it"....she barely reacted at all! Of course, the fact that she had such an odd relationship with her aunt in the first place....this is definitely not a woman from a normal background.

I agree with you about the comments about Diane Redfern. Another thing: wasn't Diane missed by anyone? She gets murdered and no one reports her missing after several days?

Back to Laura....she might not have used the best techniques to work her way up in her profession, but if you think that she was "not nice", try watching the 1933 film Baby Face, if you haven't seen it already. Now THERE's a woman who found a Way to move up in her profession. 

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

Yes, I have seen "Baby Face." Young Stanwyck is terrific.

I think it is really Laura who is manipulating Waldo! She knows exactly
what she's doing, and as soon as she's gotten where she wants, she
starts seeing other men (Jacoby, for one; Waldo tells Mark "there were
others"). Certainly, Laura wasn't having sex with Waldo (I can see
Laura sexual with other young men. I don't see her virginal, which
is certainly nothing to be ashamed of).

Remember that Waldo was more than a "weirdo" - he was extremely well
off, respected, and witty. I don't see Laura "hooked" on him; I see
her "hooked" (for whatever reason) on Shelby. Odd.

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

That's why I think that Laura was a bit odd. After a certain point, she didn't need Waldo anymore. She started to see various young men, but she was still keeping Waldo around and she was even calling him to cancel if she was going on a date. Why not just ditch him completely? That's what users do with people who are useless to them. Yet she still treated him like someone to whom she had to report each time she went out on a social outing. He wasn't her father and she was adult. Why report to him?

I doubt that she was having sex with all those guys. For example, that Jacoby fellow stayed with her at her apartment for a bit and then left (curtains open and all). Waldo was watching from outside. If it had been sex, Waldo would have run right up to her apartment and shot her, like he did later when he thought that it was Laura in her nightgown (with Shelby). She was being watched carefully to make sure it didn't lead to sex. Waldo's plan was to "let it go" unless it led to sex.

In the public eye, Waldo was rich, respected, etc. I got a kick out of his speeches, but there was clearly something off about him. What would a very young woman want with someone who talked like that? This goes back to what I said in the first paragraph. Why didn't she just ditch him after she had used him? I adore this film, but this is one part of the movie which never made much sense. And then....Shelby, of all people. He had a way with him, for sure. But he was another loser who was stringing her along in order to be with Diane (who, as discussed before, was no prize herself).

Hmmm...maybe all those "winners" deserved each other. 

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

Well, I think Laura felt an obligation to Waldo. And I do think she
enjoyed his conversations and witty observations. But her coldness is
shown in odd little ways. For instance, the very next morning after
Waldo sees Jacoby leaving her apartment (the same Jacoby who painted
her gorgeous portrait that she hung in her apartment), she is seen
laughing over breakfast in bed while reading Waldo's scathing column on
him. Why?? This shows Laura to be very two-faced and mean.

I find it curious that when discussing Laura with Mark at the restaurant,
Waldo offers, "but I knew Laura could never betray anyone." I think even
Waldo was in denial about Laura's coldness.

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

Sure he helped her with her career, but that didn't mean that she was obligated to hang out with him at his home. She could have met him in some public place every so often for a chat.

Yup, definitely nasty of her to laugh at the article Waldo wrote about Jacoby. Personally, I think that she wasn't really all that serious about Jacoby to begin with. She was pretty dense if she couldn't figure out WHY Waldo had written it. Eventually she clued in and she told Waldo that she didn't want to see him anymore. Took her long enough!

As for Waldo's statement about how "Laura could never betray anyone", I think he had to speak well of her, so that Mark wouldn't think that he had murdered her. Waldo must have known perfectly well that Laura COULD betray someone. That's why he showed up at her home with that rifle.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] Gubbio 8 years ago

I think even Waldo was in denial about Laura's coldness.

In following your discussion with Mrs EQ, it occurs to me that I was so blinded by GT's beauty, that I never saw what a stinker Laura could be! 

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[–] GiaJake 8 years ago

Gbennett - Why do you think Laura didn't tell Waldo she was dating? Although I know he was jealous, they had a mentor/good friends type relationship, which was affectionate at times, but certainly not sexual. Laura could have still been his companion at parties and enjoyed other activities with him, and openly date others. It wasn't like Waldo was her boyfriend. Even if Laura married before the murder of course, she and Waldo could still have gone to dinner and enjoyed each other's company upon occasion. Waldo seemed to want to possess Laura, but couldn't offer the romantic relationship she wanted.

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

Laura was smart enough to know what Waldo wanted, yet she continued to use
him. Actually, her taste in men was quite foolish - Shelby was a worm
(and not particularly handsome either, although that's subjective).
Apparently, Jacoby wasn't much better. Neither - according to Waldo -
were "the others", who Laura dumped utilizing her "own discretion."

I personally feel that Waldo is the classic closeted homosexual (Webb,
brilliant as he was, did not personify anything else convincingly). I
feel he wanted to possess Laura, but not sexually. He wanted to sort
of live THROUGH her. And his constant remarks about other men he
perceived as more attractive than himself ("male beauties in distress";
men who "are muscular and handsome")reveal this. I feel Waldo himself is very attracted to MARK and his jealousy is twofold: he loses Laura as a
trophy, and he's jealous of the sex SHE'LL be having with Mark.

Just my two cents.

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[–] GiaJake 8 years ago

GB - Thanks so much for the reply. You have some great insights. To me this is definitely a movie that needs several viewings, and each rewatch brings up more questions. How could Laura be so sure Shelby wasn't feeding Diane a load of crap, and know that he didn't try to string her along? After giving Diane the cigarette case, and particularly when she was found in a nightgown, wouldn't most people assume she and Shelby did more than talk, haha?

Yet Laura still covered for him. She should have been furious that Shelby used her apartment, and Diane was wearing her night clothes. You have given me something to think about, as I always felt Laura was sweetness personified, but maybe not.

I do think that Shelby had a certain charm. He would never be my type, but I really liked the way he related to the cook at the party. It was nice to see him banter with a woman who wasn't one of the rich and pampered, and you could see she genuinely liked him. Strangely enough, Waldo's "investigations" really did Laura a favor, but everyone knew he was checking up for all the wrong reasons, which makes those on the receiving end dig their heels in and make excuses. Also he didn't have much on Mark, and had to resort to the ridiculous, saying he called women dames and dolls, haha. I have to say that you were much more perceptive than me. On first viewing, I had no idea who the murderer was, and never saw the twist coming. I love this movie, and could discuss it forever.

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

Thank you for the kind remarks.

Re: Waldo's sexuality. This has been brought up before on this board, with
tons of homophobes becoming furious at the notion. But what I'm stating
certainly isn't fact, only speculation on my part. I do think it's
quite possible that the effeminate Webb was purposely cast to create this
angle. It's hard to buy him as anything but gay. In any case, how
wonderfully fun Webb is in this part. (it should also be noted that
both Price and Judith Anderson were thought to be gay. Coincidental
casting? Probably. But who knows?).

In "Hollywood Enigma", the terrific bio on Dana Andrews, the making of
"Laura" is covered at length. A very difficult production to be sure.
And, yes, as one might guess, Webb made it clear to Andrews that he
was attracted to the actor. Andrews, straight and happily married, was
not interested. Yet they became close friends. Interesting.

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[–] GiaJake 8 years ago

GB - I love classic star tidbits, and at one point was addicted to biographies. Dana Andrews was always a favorite. If he only made Laura and The Best Years of Our Lives, he would have had a proud legacy, but of course he made many more movies. All of the main roles in Laura as so distinctive to me, each character witty and unique. What a pleasant way to spend a few hours. As soon as I got TiVo capabilities, Laura was recorded and will not be deleted. It's a film I never get tired of watching.

On a weird note, when Laura was in the restaurant before approaching Waldo for the first time, one of her dining companions was a ringer for Shirley Temple I thought. It cannot be her of course, and you only get a brief glimpse, but she really looked like Shirley.

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

I'll have to check that out.

BTW, "Laura" was released on Blu Ray not too long ago, and the reviews say
the film is completely speckle/dirt free, and the sound perfect, with no
hissing or crackling. I've yet to go the Blu Ray route, but it's nice
to know that they did such a fine job on the film's restoration.

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[–] MsELLERYqueen2 8 years ago

Regarding Waldo's sexuality: I think it's not relevant because he was so narcissistic. I can't imagine him forming a relationship with anyone of any gender. I only saw him as a guy so full of himself that I just can't believe that he ever put anyone's feelings ahead of his own. Just my two cents.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen 🎇

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[–] Isau 8 years ago

Funny, I thought Vincent Price was super attractive in this. I guess different people have different standards of beauty.

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[–] gbennett5 8 years ago

He was handsome - for Vincente Price (who was classy, cultured and, from
all reports, a true gentleman). But as a cad, Price's flaws are accentuated
and he just becomes ugly to me as Shelby. He's too tall, gawky, and his
nose starts on Sunday and winds up on Thursday afternoon. I would hardly
call him a "male beauty" (!), but, again, it's all subjective. Part of
the issue is a credit to Price's often underrated gifts as an actor: he
was almost TOO good.

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[–] liscarkat (16543) 2 years ago

Price was perfect in the role.

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[–] johnmiller (3357) a year ago

I liked how he said that he was "horrified" at finding the dead body.

Dude, you're Vincent Price. You're the guy who CREATES dead bodies. :-)

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