MovieChat Forums > Now, Voyager (1942) Discussion > Irresponsible and peophilic

Irresponsible and peophilic


Maybe its my modern point of view, but I think Tina's father was very irresponsible to allow his child to be showered with attention and gifts from woman he banged at a traumatic time. Charlotte had obviously serious mental issues. His child had her own problems. I think it was selfish to inject herself in this child life to win the affections of her father. It sickens me that most of the most women over look all this for "romance". Being rich and giving kids gifts doesn't equal good mother. I understand Charlotte's mother was a bitch. Considering her struggle independence vs cash. Looks like Cash won. That's a real nice role model for young girls. If independence and self respect was all that important she would have left. Don't get me started on what she told the fiance "I want to lose my inhibitions"

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Peophilic? I assume that is a misspelling of that other P-word. I don't even want to know how you arrived to that conclusion, let's skip it.

Charlotte was not doing this to steal Jerry. She provided a friend to his daughter, someone who needed one very badly. She too needed a friend in the beginning, and Jerry, by her own admission, was her first. There is most certainly a romance here, but the way these two adults actually helped each other is very pure, innocent, and almost entirely unrelated to their romance.


-Charlotte needed confirmation that she was embracing her confidence properly and was on the right path, Jerry provided it.

-Jerry needed to embrace the career he loved and wasn't sure how to approach his daughter Tina, Charlotte inspired him and gave him insight into Tina's troubles.

-Charlotte needed a push when confronting her mother after her transformation, Jerry sent flowers at just the right time.

-Jerry had a daughter that seemed hopeless to him, Charlotte made her glow in ways he never imagined possible (She even inspired Dr. Jaquith to take her on as partner).

-Charlotte needed something bigger than her own guilt to occupy her mind after her mother's death, which she blamed herself for, and Jerry's daughter was pretty much the perfect miracle for the job.

-Both of them benefit from this secret connection through Tina, with Jerry the father and Charlotte adopting the mother role Tina never had.


Fate has these two people filling holes in each other's lives almost perfectly, and they both admit throughout the film that their romance is impossible. Regardless, they still have something substantial together.

You also seem quite preoccupied with Charlotte's wealth. Remember the 'I'm not afraid' scene? She was ready to toss it away once she realized that wealth was only keeping her prisoner to her mother. The film actually takes a poetic turn for that wealth at the end of the film, but only if you interpret that Charlotte partnering with Dr. Jaquith means Cascade will now have more funding and reach more troubled people. That is how I read that last bit with Claude Rains, and I think it makes the happy ending even happier.

It isn't that your point of view is modern, but you are aiming some rather cynical interpretations at these characters and twisted things in ways they don't need to be twisted.

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I appreciate your response. I know I came off lijke an *beep* see these as very selfish people. Charlotte's main motivation seems to be getting Tina's dad. I o honestly appreciate your response btw my girlfriend sees it your way too.

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but the way these two adults actually helped each other is very pure, innocent, and almost entirely unrelated to their romance


Indeed. So much so that I personally find it somewhat distracting.
I don't mean to underestimate this element of the movie, far from it.
It's just that it comes out of nowhere - sort of - and seems somehow rushed or ill-connected with the rest of it. It almost feels as a sort of "justification" of the romance, and I don't feel this particular romance needs one.

But, in truth, it's been quite a few years since I last saw this movie, so I may have missed some of the nuances that might hold it together.

BTW, that was a great reply, very informative and sensitive.


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Perfect.

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DukeTogo1300, this is a wonderfully insightful analysis of the film. It's sadly ironic that while the contemporary world has opened up enough to allow necessary discussion of formerly taboo subjects, it's also narrowed the focus of many people so that they can see nothing but those taboo subjects in everything. There's so much more to human relationships & desires than mere pathology!

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But Charlotte doesn't expect to get Jerry. She's not using Tina to try to get him. She tells him at the end, "Don't let's ask for the moon; we have the stars." She is saying don't think about what could be if his wife were gone; take joy in the satisfaction they both have in seeing Tina happy and well adjusted--and in the more satisfying professional lives they both had.

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stan,

I am wondering if it some unconscious lechery inside myself, but I interpret that moon and stars metaphor to have meant the moon being their being married, which they do not have, and the stars being their love for each other, which might even mean some further physical involvement. The Code would not have permitted any explicit reference to sex between them, especially as adultery. But this ironically makes one wonder, I think, whether these sorts of metaphors are meant to pack some larger meaning.

Now I am not saying they were having sex at the time or anything like that. But if the stars refers to their love, then sex is a possibility going forward, as it were.

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kenny-164, that's not how I understood the comment about the moon and the stars but you could be right. I just thought she was referring to being grateful for and appreciative of what they do have and not discounting it and longing instead for what they don't have.

What I found especially interesting about this movie is the subtlety of their relationship. Clearly they have very strong feelings for each other but I can see it both ways: as an affair that got physical but also as a relatively innocent affair of the mind and heart that never had a physical component; nothing more than kissing.

Even moving forward, it's not clear where the relationship will go. The doctor knows all about it and continues to be involved (due to Tina) so they know they have to maintain a certain distance yet they also talk about him visiting 'his' home whenever he wants. Getting together would risk what they're trying to do for Tina; they both know that, yet they seem willing to risk it. Given how they both still feel, being together can be dangerous; for what might happen and/or how other may perceive what is going on, including Tina.

That said, they both have a very strong sense of duty but that's the very thing that got Charlotte in trouble in the first place. Now, it's JD who is 'trapped' in a situation he doesn't really want to be in. Yet, they both find a way to find a sense of freedom and self even while fulfilling their obligations. Charlotte stayed on with her mother but lived her own life and JB stays with his wife but still manages to pursue his architecture and give his heart to his 'Camille'.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the OP. I chose to see them both channeling the love they have for each other into Tina and helping her overcome at an early age the burden of not being loved or wanted by her own mother. Charlotte is the perfect person to help her because she's been through the same thing herself. As she says, Tina is the outlet for the love she feels for JD. She's not using the child; rather, she's bonded with her through shared experiences and the love they have in common for the same man.

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Having Tina to get her dad? Seriously? Did you actually watch the movie?

It's obviously absurd that a complete stranger would basically be the custodian of a child when both her parents are alive and actually married. I cannot imagine how they would have explained that to Boston society, the same one that is being so vividly detailed to us during the movie.
However, let's not forget that it is made very clear that Tina's mother does not want her. And Tina is a teenager. Charlotte was wealthy and an adult, ready to leave her mother and be her own woman, so while Charlotte taking on mother duties could seem very dangerous, it is not that bad of an idea, but it's really dream-world stuff ;)

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Wow, I took her relationship with Tina a totally different way.
To me it seemed she identified with Tina as they both were unwanted by their mothers. She wanted Tina to experience a mother figures love because she didn't want to see the girl end up like her.
Sure there was the thought that it was Jerry's child, but I don't think that was her main motivation as the last scene shows that she cares more about being able to keep Tina than being able to continue there relationship.
That's my two cents anyway.

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Wow, I took her relationship with Tina a totally different way.
To me it seemed she identified with Tina as they both were unwanted by their mothers. She wanted Tina to experience a mother figures love because she didn't want to see the girl end up like her.
Sure there was the thought that it was Jerry's child, but I don't think that was her main motivation as the last scene shows that she cares more about being able to keep Tina than being able to continue there relationship.


Pontipy, I'm with you.

That, to me, is a major theme of this film. Charlotte grows from being a helpless, miserable person, in need of saving, to a helper, a teacher, someone who is strong and ready to give to others.

Besides helping Tina, she is helping to finance and plan a hospital. She is using her time and the Vale wealth for good, not hoarding cash away and judging the outside world like her harridan of a mother.

That's what makes the film interesting and moving, to me. I see it as much more of a character development film than a romance (and it leans towards being a teacher movie as she learns how to help Tina -- I have a soft spot for teacher movies).

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It has been a few years since I've seen this movie and I'm trying to remember if Charlotte knew that Tina was Jerry's daughter when she first met her? I slightly remember her not realizing it first. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

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Charlotte understood Tina better than anybody else and upon her own recovery and growth, she wanted to return the favor and help this sad, troubled girl. She saw herself in the girl. Their relationship was very moving. She gave her love and self-confidence. Charlotte was the very best thing that ever happened to Tina. I can't imagine how anybody could not feel this.

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I totally agree. Charlotte gave Tina the mother love that the poor girl so desperately craved. It was totally maternal. There's a American saying: Everything happens for a reason. It may well be that Charlotte's own suffering under her b!tch of a mother provided her with a unique perspective to fully understand Tina in a manner Charlotte had wished to be understood as a child. The OT of this thread clearly doesn't understand this. Charlotte wasn't just buying the kid stuff to feel loved. Cash isn't the issue. In fact, there are many circumstances in which a person providing love and attention to a child is a nanny or some other employee of the parents.

If Tina hadn't had a "Charlotte" in her life, she would have definitely become an alcoholic or a suicide victim.

___________________________________
Never say never...

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Hopefully the young girl would not turn to booze or thoughts of suicide, but you never know. Charlotte was a blessing to her.

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You must be sad all the time.

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You're weird!

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Well said lemonhead !

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