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jam920's Replies
More or less true, I guess as a society we do not learn from the past then
Orwell was a social democrat and a old school one at that. The SD's and communist were often rivals and Orwell wrote 1984 and Animal Farm based on his view of the Marxist-Leninist. That "true" communism was not achieved or if one believes the US is one of the most evil nations in the history on earth does not change what Orwell's motivations for those books were.
Nobody could argue that the US has manipulated governments and has often failed to live up to ideals it even preaches to other nations. You ruled out the Soviet Union as living up to the ideals of either socialism or truly hoping to reach communism. There are smaller countries like the obvious examples in Scandinavia that have strong social programs but are not socialist. Since they have a capitalist free market, the government does not own the means of production. Are there any nations or societies, capitalist, socialist, autocrat, republic etc. that you feel has lived up to its ideals?
Orwell's book 1984 speaks to totalitarianism, but many interpret as a warning of fascism but really it spoke to the Marxist-Leninist regime like the Soviet Union at the time. Sure there are similarities between the two ideologies. I always thought the political spectrum described as circle makes the most sense with Communism and Fascism side by side on the extreme halves of the circle. That is what is interesting about 1984 because both the left and the right use Orwell's words against one another whenever both drift closer to their extremes.
I agree that we can assume that Himmler position is safe, I am sure he would have already killed off or arrested anyone that was a threat. It was easy to do, you could accuse someone of anything in Nazi Germany if you held the power. I doubt even when Himmler was RFSS he was that hands on to point of calling secret agents in the field. Being at the Year Zero event makes sense though, but it just seems they have Himmler in every scene that involves the American Reich portion of the show.
I might have missed something, what is the connection to Trump in the show? Or is this just general comparison. If Trump were truly like the Nazis he would be finding ways to change the constitution to give himself and his party more control. I get the Trump opposition but to compare a government that killed millions of people to a guy whose immigration or tax policies may not be one's liking seem a little stretch.
What if people from different ends of spectrum both believe they are working towards the betterment of society, yet sometime they are and sometimes they are not.
Socialism could perhaps be more democratic, but democracy just means the majority rules but does not guarantee freedom. The majority government could make all other parties illegal.
That is not to say there are not flaws with capitalism, but hard to have a free society without a free market. This is a problem for socialist or communist societies. Or Fascism where the state still gets to pick favorites in the marketplace. The crony capitalism in the US market probably closer resembles this at times.
Werner von Braun as a figure so close to the US space program might have made him less of a choice. They did attach Werner Heisenberg to the atomic bomb to the story calling it a "Heisenberg device". Which makes sense since he did work on their atomic program.
Although I also agree slavery was and is morally wrong, I am not taking a side in the Civil War; that has already been decided and was long over before I was born. I am only pointing out that they were very partisan at that time and all sides felt they were right and feared the other. I see the attitudes (not as much the causes) today when it comes to politics and economics as much more similar to that era, than different.
When you say both sides, do you mean Democrat v. Republican, Liberal v. Conservative, Socialist V. Capitalist? I would only suggest that they are equal because they are led by human beings and because of that are flawed by nature and have overstepped the moral boundaries to achieve their goals at some point and will do so again.
Sorry I missed your reply from a few days ago.
Like you, I of course have my own partisan beliefs, just as everyone does today or in the past. For example the different groups leading up to the Civil War both in the North and the South were also partisan. They certainly felt different groups were conspiring against their way of life and what their conception of America was.
Even if you believe Trump supporters are not personally conspiring against Democrats, but if you believe they are being lied to than you at least believe they are tools to a bigger conspiracy against those that view things differently than they do, and want to deprive them of power. Today this seems to be the gist of the message I hear from both sides.
But is the news media monolithic today? I am not sure I follow you there, at least their views do not seem that way. I would think maybe from the 1960s-80s during the golden age of broadcast news was probably when that adjective might more closely be applied to some degree.
That propaganda or myth building being done for Trump is not new, either today or for any one side of the political spectrum. As for Trump, I am not sure if a more public person has been elected to the presidency, certainly not in the modern age. One could debate on how much investigation into him is needed, but I think it would be hard to say he has not been investigated, at least that is my perception.
Over the course of history, if you look at the struggles over Republic-ism vs Monarchy, capitalism vs socialism you can see the same repetitive behaviors. The contrast how people view the world maybe best expressed by the countering views of Hobbs and Locke and has been forever.
It all depends. It seems today if someone is of a certain race and especially also of a certain gender they can be automatically assumed guilty of anything because of the real or even perceived crimes people of the same race and gender had done in the past.
These are excellent points, many I wondered about as well.
I know the Nazis have super duper sonic aircraft and Himmler can zip back and forth, but he does seem pretty tied up in things he should have other people handling.
Jazz or swing music was looked down on at least officially. Only rational I can think of is, perhaps the American national socialist were more tolerant, and or because it such a part of American culture it was tolerated more in the American part of the Reich. Still at the official party for eliminating American history it still seems a strange choice.
I agree bribing and blackmail would make sense. Although to hold this over Smith it could be easily used against him. Before the war two prominent Generals on the German High command were brought down by rumor and innuendo. Still if Himmler sees Smith as so important I think he could make sure his daughters get a pass, just as he did with the charges against him by Rockwell.
I think they used Mengele because he is more commonly known and infamous for conducting experiments on people, but was not a physicist. Someone did suggest maybe in the MITC world he was a physicist and did not go into the medical field.
The big Nazi machine at the end, really went off the rails for me. As the heroes spy on things through an air vent, while Himmler overseas his doomsday machine like some kind James Bond villain.
Actually many members of the Nazi party who were devoted to Hitler and National Socialism later disavowed this when they saw how mistaken they were. Of course many never did, many in East Germany joined with the communist. So yes there is many ways it could go.
Herman Goering among the highest echelon would be closest to this. He would have hitched his wagon to whoever he thought could bring him wealth and power. His second wife who had been an actress and had many friends and colleagues who were Jewish had her husband help them. This does not excuse all the horrible things Goering did but his motivation was to himself and his family. When he surrendered to the Americans he even told his wife, "not a bad 12 year run". Unlike Goebbels who killed himself and his family because they could not imagine living in a world without national socialism. In contrast, Goering actually offered to Eisenhower his services to govern over post war Germany.
I don't get the ruling other worlds idea at all. It seems it would take only the 2 seconds of common sense that the logistics alone would make a plan unrealistic. Now maybe to go forward and steal technology or resources to maintain superiority in their own world seems more realistic.
In the first season, I wondered if maybe Hitler was getting films from another world where they lost, and using them to course correct in his world. Of course this did not turn out to be the case in the show. Who know though, maybe it will turnout Hitler war a traveler.
I guess one could excuse the true believer a little more over the opportunist. However, that would only be if the person had no real belief system going in to counter act what they were being told. This would probably only really apply to the young, especially those growing up in Germany post World War 1 and than the world wide depression. This is not to excuse their actions, only it is easier to understand how they could be manipulated. The National Socialists were part of a great class struggle going on and some attached to it on those grounds.
A little off topic, and my memory is a little hazy but I recall that Smith family suffered greatly in the depression and kind of implied it was part of the reason he embraced National Socialism. In this alternate reality maybe a German invasion of the US was also met or joined with a growing support in National Socialism in what was the US?
I think you are right when it comes to the story arc. Who knows what they have in mind with Smith. He and Kito are both interesting because you see them on the wrong side of things but as you said still show empathy. For television characters it makes the plot more interesting.
I know they only have so many episodes per seasons to tell their story, but it would be interesting to see what happen in the years from the war up to a little before the series began.
I agree with you that the majority of the Nazis did what they did because they bought into the belief system of Hitler and national socialism. Same with Stalin, he was not a deviation but a true believer of communism and did what he did for that cause.
That being said, their motivations of course don't excuse their actions. Smith's involvement in the holocaust will make it hard for his character to be redeemable. Also one has to wonder why he went from the US Army to the SS? Not the army, but the SS, for full party members true believers, especially someone at his rank. That does not mean at some point he might have regret, but for a time at the very least he had to be a die hard believer of Hitler and the National Socialist party.
That is the thing about human nature, even the most evil people can be personable and likable. Dictators don't rise to power if they don't have some kind of charisma.
In the first season Wegner talks about the the terrible thing he and John Smith did. Smith seems to have little regret but now with the loss of his son the murders he was involve in might resonate more. So many Nazis, (or others over history) were able to commit such terrible atrocities but were still able to be fathers and husbands etc. Did the events and decision they made turn them evil or were they that way to begin with.
In the 1960s United States homosexuals were not openly excepted so the neutral zone must be much more open society. Homosexuality could get someone sent to concentration camps in Nazi Germany, not sure the laws in Japan at the time but just guessing world wide at the time it was probably not openly permitted.
Smith is an interesting character for sure and agree Rufus Sewell does a great job. I still see him pretty much as a bad guy though. We don't know if he turned his back on his former country as a Lt. in the US Army but perhaps being an opportunist. He seems to be definitely involved in the holocaust as it continued in North America. He has tortured and killed many doing his duty for the Reich, even killing Heydrich was also doing his duty for the Reich not because of who Heydrich was. He killed Dr.Adler and Rockwell to protect himself and his family.
He does care about his family and those that are loyal to him, but that really doesn't negate what he has done to others. I think he is regreting his life's path, with his reaction to Himmler's plans and when he see his alternate world self with his son. The alternate world Smith lives in a world where he did not have to face same decisions.
I think Kito might be a more conflicted character then Smith.
But what is going on today, is in many ways not different than in past, be it the 1960s or the 1860s. People act and respond on their belief system, even when it may be false. False perceptions from both sides of a political spectrum lead their supporters to think the other side is conspiring against them. We seem to be at that point today from both sides, as we have been in other points of time.
I agree with you about Lost, I watched it regularly only in the end did not understand the point of it.
The neutral zone makes little sense to me. For the same reasons you mentioned. Also the area sectioned off as the Neutral zone would still have a lot of natural resources that you would think both the Japanese and Germans would be after.