MovieChat Forums > Travelers (2016) Discussion > Why Doesn't Entering A Supposed-to-Be-De...

Why Doesn't Entering A Supposed-to-Be-Dead Body Worry Them?


I'm on episode 10 right now, and I love the show and everything, but I have a question and wondered if anyone had any possible answers.
So, they've mentioned in a few episodes how they shouldn't save anyone or do anything to disrupt time. However, isn't entering the mind of someone right before they die, preventing that death, basically saving them? Further living out their lives, lives that otherwise would not have been lived, is changing things a lot too, and could create future generations that previously did not exist.
Is this something that's answered at one point or is it just a mistake?

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They do have Protocol 4: Do Not Reproduce. This is only part of it though, since literally everything they do and everyone they interact with after the host should've died is an alteration to the future. It only makes sense in the context of a broad strokes picture of time. The idea that most changes are limited in scope, and don't impact the big things you're trying to manipulate, but occasionally a seemingly innocuous minor act can have major consequences so they try to avoid any and all improvised (unaccounted for) interventions.

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Otherwise known as the butterfly effect.

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There was an air catastrophe in the 1980s in Yugoslavia, the plane was en route from the UK to Greece (if I remember the destination correctly).

The guy at air traffic control got recently divorced, so he was in a very bad mood, and managed to spill coffee on his lap, so while he was preoccupied, he missed seeing the 2 planes on collision course until it was too late.

2 minor acts that led to the deaths of dozens. In the actual grand scheme humans play no part of the equation. Like, imagine, how a traveler would be sent to the 1980s as a Russian into the USSR to prevent Chernobyl, every attempt would fail. It would fail for the simple reason that the dictatorship would view any information or access as foreign espionage, and one of two things would have happened: a show trial, like with the U2 pilot, or Andropov giving the order for nuclear strike, accelerating the events which led to the bleak future. I said Andropov, as preventing it under Gorbachev had been a) already too late and b) a reason to oust him, extending the Cold War.

I live in the Gordius Apartment Complex, my interior designer was M.C. Esher.

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What are you talking about? If you could overwrite someone's consciousness, you'd put a Traveler into an authorized person who'd be able to take appropriate action. Not much point in the whole Traveler program if you can't change the course of events.

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Not every event, and not under every circumstances, as hinted on by Derek why they have to save the bloodthirsty dictator.

Going back to the Chernobyl example, many people are aware what happened and why, but those living in that system and time also remember the propaganda movies they made to bring home the point, it's an state of the art futuristic facility with little robots crawling around like in Star Wars Episode IV. In other words, any intervention would have been in violation of protocol 5, since the travelers can't continue their hosts lives, who'd have been convicted as foreign spies.

That doesn't even take into account, how many alternate scenarios could have been, that a quantum computer can predict, and it's actually happening in real life, as conservation is an international project, but the country itself is in a civil war, and a contingency has been made should the site fall into rebel hands.

It's important to know in the scheme of human existence, how radical a change is. For example, the former Abyssinia modernly known as Ethiopia and Eritrea has never been colonized, but slavery was a staple of their society, so when the Allies had freed them from Italian occupation, the former slaves have literally asked what to do, some even have demanded to continue being owned as the alternative being freedom was an alien concept to them. In other words unless the cause can be changed, humans will attempt to make the same mistakes, and the number of travelers is limited. Protocol 3 is in place to avoid unnecessary and unpredictable changes.

I live in the Gordius Apartment Complex, my interior designer was M.C. Esher.

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It's important to know in the scheme of human existence, how radical a change is.


All behavior is simply a strategy to get specific needs met. For some, healthy strategies are employed, while for others, their strategies are viewed as unhealthy, but they continue as long as they work. For the Ethiopians, and often for long term prisoners, they have become so institutionalized that they are incapable of developing or carrying out a strategy to get even basic needs met. It was the same for the US troops who encountered the concentration camp survivors, and who almost killed them all by providing too much food all at once. A lot of programs fail because they don't manage the transition phase, they remove the bad thing but fail to replace the void which was left with something appropriate. For Phillip, he needs to be tapered off of heroin over about 6 weeks to avoid any sudden withdrawal symptoms. They are doing it wrong, BTW, as one maintains the dosing schedule and reduces the dosage down to zero. Philips approach was to just stretch out the distance between the hills of the roller coaster rather than gradually leveling the whole track.

This is why any quick-fix political change often fails on some level. Those trying to effect the change simply do not recognize the rules under which the fixees are operating. Or they don't see the unintended consequences of their actions. Portland's homeless problem is out of control because the more homeless they feed and house, the more homeless come to Portland to be fed and housed. It is like telling a farmer that the way to get rid of rats is to feed them more. But if you have a whole class of SJW's whose livelihood depends on helping the poor, then having more poor is job security, hence what incentive to fix it.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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I had the "fortune" of once having a job, that provided me with a flat (it was used as a home office), and before that, I was also piss poor, relying occasionally on assistance, and it was there, that I've met people with severe addiction problems, some of them were junkies. Coming from their own world, they couldn't imagine anyone else wanting or needing help, who isn't an addict. I don't think we'd have much of a disagreement over the fact, that our world isn't ideal, and it's not only addicts who become poor and/or homeless. On the other hand, I fully agree on the mistake made by their medic, even in our century, we treat drug addicts hooked on heavy drugs with methadone, almost the same high without addiction, and they become symptom free, provided they stay away from those who want to drag them back into using, and refuse getting help.

As for the people behind the cause of helping others selflessly, I debate and contest the idea, that it's the same as the people who throw money at a problem hoping it would go away, at least "out of sight, out of mind". There's unfortunately no need to "create" homeless people, we have enough evil in our conscience to do it. Ideally, like I said, only ne'er do wells would end up on a street, but it might be as harmless as being LGBT or not believing in god. I'm not surprised less fortunate flock to Portland in hopes for the betterment of their own lives, since social welfare, ever since the first food stamp came out is a state's rights issue. As such, the less fortunate gravitate toward the more humane approach. It's actually pretty ironic, that the model used here in Europe is actually based on an American one, namely housing is but the open door, the road to reenter society is tied to finding an employment, and thus it's selective who they can take in. At times, even factors influence lives very differently. For example, being a felon is a huge hurdle in America, even if one does have housing, around these parts is not having housing, as not many employ someone without a fix address, and a fix address can't be maintained without a job.

My original example was only to demonstrate, how the future dwellers can be totally dependent on an exterior factor all their lives and not knowing any alternative. There's a reasonable explanation for the GI actions as well, only their grandfathers have seen ethnic cleansing for the last time, so even if they had textbooks on how to approach, there was no drill for that, since the 2 Slovakian guys making it to Switzerland and reporting on the camps was taken as Soviet propaganda.

There's also the question that Grace had asked (the real one) as to why they don't assassinate Hitler. The most down to Earth answer is, that the orchestra can play even if the conductor is dead. By the time they started the war, all later to be occupied countries were smitten either with populist or radical leaders, who have greatly helped screwing others or their own country over. While The Director only sends people back in time, it's not impossible the AI has access to parallel worlds, or at least a probability scenario, and it chose to not prevent 9/11. Without emotions, there's no morality, and without morality it's a mere number who is to be saved (the AI proved that in Episode 7) and who isn't. It's not a big stretch to imagine, the Travelers themselves view these dead people as a necessary sacrifice for a greater cause.

I live in the Gordius Apartment Complex, my interior designer was M.C. Escher.

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What I see locally is a bunch of career politicians who want to treat a problem and also take 5% for their efforts, and if they continue through misguided policies to extend the problem, then they have continuous employment at our expense. It is like a constant game of creating socialism without ever calling it socialism.

There may be a show called Portlandia which claims to show how life is lived here, but IMHO, a more honest representation is The Sopranos, where nothing gets done without those in charge getting a taste, and since they are all members of the same gang, even when caught no one goes to jail because that would then cause the whole pyramid to tumble. That is why they are terrified of Trump, because a new sheriff be in town, and things which never made it through the local or state level because of politics will now be under a federal eye, and those who are smart will be the first to voluntarily do a plea deal.

I once spoke to the director of NYC's methadone maintenance program. She was absolutely convinced that for an opiate addict there was no option other than maintenance, which is another form of slavery masquerading as harm reduction. I have 11,922 days that say otherwise. And those who go on long half-life opiates rarely, if ever, get off. Buprenorphine is just a program where the addict gives $15K a year to a doctor to shoot them up vs giving $15K a year to the dealer for self-service. As a health care professional, the last mode of treatment I'd ever hope for is that offered by the medical professions, because it is way more about putting $$$ in their pocket than helping the addict.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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With a vast experience in living in an authoritarian dictatorship, then democracy, and for a short while in autocratic democracy, I wouldn't get my hopes up with the new president, he's a populist, not a radical.

At worst what happens is that the new sheriff in town throws the baby out with the bathwater, and nobody, including his supporters get what they hoped for. Since he is a GOP president, it's even less likely, that he will put the federal arm over state's rights issues as that would contradict state self determination (technically it wouldn't, but they like to say that). Florida's governor was caught taking drugs after he ordered all welfare recipients on mandatory drug testing, and he refused to do so.

Not to mention, marginalization doesn't make the problem go away, at best underground and into back alleys. The only way to reduce addiction is to eliminate the factors causing them. Opiate addiction is way higher, than drug addiction, including the majority population, which is the only time when people listen to the problem. Yet that doesn't seem to be his major concern, rather the bulk purchase on new shiny war toys they probably won't use.

Just to be clear, I have no issues with personal responsibility, but it does have its limitations, a problem very clear to the philosophers who influenced the Founding Fathers. If thoughts are like iron particles, the total freedom of thought exchange motivates people to act like iron particles and gravitate to one side of the magnet. Whatever problems you face, you have a hard time to compromise as many of your compatriots only see said problem through a lens of superlatives. Except very few things are that black and white. Regardless of where we live, if a community is subject to predisposed discrimination, it is potential or actual prey to the worst of its members. There's a correlation between poverty and crime, so reducing the former does lead to the reduction of the latter. This is not to say addicts shouldn't be reviewed case by case, only that being a social animal that we actually are is beneficial to all even if we do it for selfish reasons, it's a type of herd immunity, where this delivers a high immunity from property and violent crime.

I was a conservative (today it would be called alt right, though it's still far right), and being a conservative always changes with time. For example, in today's world, only a few would ask for public lynching and hanging, not because it's PC, but because it's wrong on many levels. Compared to a century ago, today's conservatives would be ultra liberals (thinking that non-white people are actually human or that their intelligence grows after the age of 11). And those conservatives of a century ago, positing themselves as proud nationalists were liberals compared to 18th century conservatives, who believed nationalism is turning away from god. Like the saying goes, it's better to teach a man how to fish. There are people who become addicts due to peer pressure, which is not unlike the peer pressure to get someone to hunt. Not that they learn to do it, rather that they were conditioned to do it before they could make an educated choice.

As a fiscal conservative, I support choices based on the limitation the financial body can handle, how it can make profit, or how it can make it less hemorrhaging money. What some fear in the new commander in chief is the firm attitude last seen in the mayor of Vienna who infamously said "Wer Jude ist, bestimme ich!". It's hard to have an open and rational conversation with anyone who fits reality to their own expectations, rather than accept how humans actually behave. I get it, you never had your Stalin or Hitler, and no democracy is immune, but here's hoping he doesn't go further, than Il Duce, because than correct depiction of Portland will be the least of our problems.

P.S.: In my book, Grimm is the best depiction of Portland ;)

I live in the Gordius Apartment Complex, my interior designer was M.C. Escher.

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A reason that I like this show is that it seems to be addressing the issue of consequences when one acts. It starts out with the altruistic motivation of deflecting an asteroid in order to save the planet, but what we may be seeing now is that the act of detonating the antimatter bomb to power the laser may serve as the impetus to start an arms race that leads to the near elimination of the human race, not just the 91M killed on impact day. In an earlier post I likened this event to the attack at Pearl Harbor, which I am pretty convinced the US knew about, but couldn't act because it would then demonstrate that they had broken the Japanaese Naval Code. Our commanders had a choice, save 2000 lives on one day, or save millions over the course of the prolonged war.

Twenty years ago we had a patient who had previously complained of foot pain, so an ignorant podiatrist decide to cut all four sensory nerves to the man's foot, which resulted in 4 horrific neuromas and a near fatal dose of narcotics each day to control the pain they generated. After reviewing the case, the Uber boss stated that "there is nothing more dangerous than misguided good intentions." As I look around, I see more and more cures that are worse than the disease. It seems to no longer be a joke that in order to be safe, one needs to avoid "gun free" zones because that is where all mass shootings seem to take place.

I don't see an immediate fix to all problems in America, but I do envision a shift back to the way things ought to be, which is a country that actually makes and sells things. Manufacturing produces wealth, government consumes wealth. Locally in Oregon we defeated a state bill which by estimates would have eliminated 20,000 manufacturing jobs but would have retained or created 30,000 .gov jobs. To me it was a sign that the people were waking up to the shenanigans that have been perpetrated against them over the last decade at their expense. Do gooders in Portland are in the process of chasing Precision Cast Parts out of town as they have recently done to a couple of custom glass manufacturers. I guess they envision the town being a place where the only jobs are in software, tattoos, and coffee shops.


Grimm is shot in my hood.





My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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Of course in this show we do now have The Faction, who appear to be countering the Director's efforts. So a lot of the tendency of their good intentions to backfire may be due to other people performing manipulations of their own to ensure they do. It's a lot harder to get events off a particular course if a third party is sabotaging your efforts and trying to put things back on that course again. You're not just intervening in the past. You're fighting a temporal war.

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And this essentially true in any world at any time where you have two opposing parties. I freely admit to undermining the policies and practices of the party that I am opposed to for the very reason that I believe they will lead to a worse world and/or decrease my standard of living. I don't apologize because that is human nature, which is to perpetuate my genes into the future. But all of this has to be tempered and examined in cases especially where short trm gains lead to long term losses, such as a strategy of burning a shelter in a fire to generate heat to stay a bit warmer, which eventually leads to everyone being much colder.

In Travelers there is no good outcome it seems, only a possibly marginally better outcome. It may be that the best scenario is to let the asteroid hit and then rebuild back out from the heartland. This of course now raises the significance of "the pipeline" which is either natural gas or oil, and we don't know from where to where. If it brings sand filed oil fro Alberta into the central continental US, that could be a good thing. But perhaps it is just another Deepwater Horizon in the making, and the impact causes a rupture which never seals and continues to pollute forever.

If you look at our planet, the most bountiful regions are also the most unstable, geologically, because it is the instability which has broken up the ground and made it fertile. It is a cruel irony therefore that people tend to live on the planet where they are most likely to be killed by the planet. So it is that way with Travelers, where in the present we try to advance our civilization by making huge changes to the landscape, but those in the future with 20/20 hindsight, well maybe 20/30 because they aren't always right, wish to come back and redo/undo the stuff which doesn't go well. But sometimes we need to the stuff to go wrong as a lesson to do it differently/better in the future. I was once swindled out of $1000 with a bad check. MY AA sponsor told me to consider it as a tuition payment to the school of hard knocks. And sure enough, at a later time, I backed out of a real estate deal that felt dicey and where a lot more money was at stake, which I might not have had I not been burnt earlier. Of course, my frustration is with politicians who keep repeating the same failed policies (socialism) because they believe it was just a matter of the right people not being in charge, when in fact it was the policy that was broken.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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I was joking with Grimm.

Speaking of intentions, it was fancy "meeting" you over at The Good Place, as both shows are a lot about philosophy.

Well, to be frank, just look at the posters the War Ministry put out back in the day, they likened the Japanese to monkeys and rats. It is sad to admit, but sheer racism was a huge factor in underestimating the IJN, who practiced the attack from 1935. When they did report back on the replica, the ministry thought the plan to be unfeasible as they thought the Japanese don't have the capacity and range to attack. However the clock needed to be turned back to 1868, the start of the Meiji Restoration. It's a perfect example of ripping a feudalistic society right into modern times. They were the fastest to adapt to new technology, but emotionally they weren't ready. Occupying parts of China and Korea was in their plans in the way back in the 16th century. In hindsight, we can clearly state, that a Japanese plan to overrun Asia thereby establishing their own colonial empire was evident, when they've won the war against the Russians in 1905. Manchuria and Korea were the springboards to the oil and caoutchouc readily available in British and Dutch colonies, but securing path to them was only possible through the Philippines, so a war with America was always in the cards.

Some ethical choices are indeed hard, regardless where one lives. For example, there's the question of chemotherapy, radiation therapy and experimental treatments, that might, can, and at times do lower quality of life versus quantity of life, but not trying them factually does lead to a painful death. I feel myself fortunate living in a place, where the right to a comfortable death is granted, since scientifically speaking there's no reason not to allow it under supervision. That doesn't exonerate doctors who make bad choices, but it's a start. The major difference is though, that it was after a long national discussion on the subject. In a huge country, like Australia, Russia, China, India, Brazil or America, most people are affected by the thinkers of their own culture, not being influenced by exterior factors, which is both beneficial and detrimental. Not being subjected to the physical consequences of one's policies, they can go as far into the fringe end as much as they like, and that slows down progress. By the time America ended its isolation, they had clear ideas about what certain ideals can be by its worst representatives.

This is also the reason why quick fixes don't exist. Russia had virtually no middle class, so ripping the country out feudalism, catapulting it into the modern age was a *beep* even today whatever they have as middle class is actually a loyal servant tier in obligation to the state power. Populism can be both left and right wing, the methods are the same, and they rarely end in positive results, as that weakens the position of populists. I agree with what you'd like to see, just not with the execution on how they do it. It's mostly an attempt to reverse time, and give people menial jobs, that either violate health/environmental code or they are jobs done by robots. Sure, nominally tens of thousands will have employment, but the goal should be sustainable quality jobs, not how much they can create. The cold hard truth is, that most of it is smoke and mirrors, Carrier did keep a thousand jobs, but it still will ship 1400 to Mexico this year, as planned. Being the first in economy is only possible with total output, not where it originates from. Giving up on geographic diversification only favors the Chinese, who won't stop doing it, and unlike 20 years ago, they actually do churn out quality products. It's a fact, that today's "Faction" is the Brazil-Russia-India-China-South Africa alliance, and they're a spanner in the works for at least 15 years. A situation that could get worse if the 7th Fleet will be recalled from its current position, though it already has been made worse by becoming cozy with the Russians. Syria is but a temporary alignment of mutual interests, in everything else, they're hostile.

I think that's where utilitarianism versus consequentialism comes in. Being a fish out of water, the choice is between an intelligence which can't comprehend human bond and its strategic importance in human relations versus a group of rogue humans who promise freedom of choice but use tyrannical methods to achieve it, it's like a facsimile between choosing the Czar and the Bolsheviks.

I live in the Gordius Apartment Complex, my interior designer was M.C. Escher.

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"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Townsend, 1970.

Every decision that is made has intended and unintended consequences. Someone decided to create "gun-free" zones because they believed that the criminals would obey the law, ignoring of course the fact that criminal is the definition of a person who "doesn't" obey the law. So basically gun-free ones are now where all the violence occurs, because criminals are safe there from people like me who do carry, but don't go into those zones anymore.

In Baltimore, they decided that the high-rise subsidized housing was the problem, so they imploded them and built low-rises at some fantastical cost, IIRC about $200K+/unit, and I understand now that since they are so crime infested and run down that the plan is to raze them (raze apparently is a completely different process than implode, because we wouldn't want to make the same mistake again) and build new high-rises. On a plus note, perhaps we will get The Wire II to illustrate how this change was so much different than before, not!

I can see Travelers s02 being the complete flip flop of s01 in terms of strategies and allegiences, sort of what Bloom alluded to, although it seemed as if she were talking about some of the history that came about AFTER they blasted Helios, which doesn't add up. As long as they treat history like a game of pinball with a very erratic and mostly unpredictable path being taken to the end result, I'll be happy.



My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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I have to disclose about your first paragraph, that it falls into the section I said about big countries and their thinkers not, or not noticeably influenced by exterior factors. As humans, we're equipped to use tools to create a culture of safety or a culture of fear. On a global scale, it can't be determined factually that humans horde tools toward a mutually assured destruction. In other words, different cultures with different rules to gain and limit access to said tools do not have the problems. They don't have it for a simple reason, the lack in culture of fear. Also, there's a difference between having a right and being able to exercise that right. To take a medical example, if someone is brought onto a regimen of medication, that prohibits the operation of heavy machinery, it's wise, that they don't have quick access to weapons.

The common link between school and workplace shootings isn't that they're gun free zones, rather because there are no plan devised to employ deflection techniques to defuse a dangerous situation. In workplaces, a person ability to hold down a job has great importance, that feeds and clothes themselves, and perhaps even their family, but it also provides access to health insurance, and the ability to pay mortgage. When said person is fired, they lose everything, and become desperate. The reason why other places don't have as many workplace murders is exactly because the safety is semi-independent or fully independent from the workplace, nor is a 401k or the IRA being risked on the stock market. Anyhow, desperation= temporary limitation on mental capabilities, combine that with an easy access to a weapon and it's a tragedy waiting to happen.

The Navy yard shooting was such a workplace tragedy, and it wasn't gun free. Once you have nothing to lose, it doesn't matter, if others can potentially stop you. Not to mention, the Orlando shooter was prepared for such a possibility by bringing bombs.

The problem with rent control isn't the size of the houses, but lack of willingness. For decades, non-WASP people were discriminated against in housing policy, and ones they got the vote, it was suddenly very important to move somewhere else. Once integration began, people fought tooth and nail to prevent it, as if crime has creed, religion, gender or skin color. Anthropologically speaking, our species has settled mostly close to rivers, and urbanization started from the center outward. That's why many cities around the world have a historical downtown, and the most expensive properties are in the inner city. America being the exemption isn't due to generally being different, just good old racism.

General poverty can be lowered by gaining access to quality education, health care and employment. The latter hasn't been realized, as people are free not to mingle, the first is tied to property tax, and the second is tied to both. An unwatered plant is still a plant, but only giving it a bare minimum to survive is the gardener's responsibility.

The society of the Travelers aren't different either, some with well above than average abilities get to live better, while others vegetate. Well, except that's class based discrimination, not a racial one. From a point of efficiency, good things can get done for morally corrupt reasons, but those work best in a culture of safety, not fear. The problem on both aisles is that they try to fit the society to the reality best fits their ideals, making it either a step forward in time or backwards, instead of surveying what people actually want. Ignoring that led to the revolution of the low class white workers against the establishment. It has the silver lining, that at least it admits poverty affects everyone, not just minorities. The problem is, that's not what the elephant or the donkey hears, rather who to court to win the next round.

I live in the Gordius Apartment Complex, my interior designer was M.C. Escher.

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General poverty can be lowered by gaining access to quality education, health care and employment.


That is a lie being sold by government and the institutions of higher education that support them.

Getting a good education can in some cases benefit the individual, but in a society that isn't the case as there are only so many jobs out there which can benefit from that education. Not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer, and of the latter, we have twice the number of those that our society can support at the moment as it is. And now look at the crisis faced by those who spent $$$ for a higher education and are now working a job which does not require anything beyond high school. It is a sound bite which sounds good and encourages kids to go into debt so their professors can stay employed, but we are seeing the bottom fall out of it just like the housing bubble.

Everyone acts as if the US is a place of unlimited resources. The more illegals who come here, the fewer jobs available to legal residents. The more that manufacturing is chased out of the country by egregious taxes and an over zealous EPA, the fewer jobs available to legal residents. The blue collar workers in Ohio finally figured this out, not sure why the rest of the country hasn't. maybe they all work for .gov, whose sole purpose is to consume, not produce wealth. Hopefully the cycle of taxing ourselves into prosperity is over for at least 8 years.

BTW, gun sales have been way down for the last 2 months, so at least the dems got that part of their platform.





My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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Perhaps I should've been clearer when I said quality education, I didn't automatically mean Harvard or Brown. I meant equipment, teachers one can talk to, who actually give a sh*t. It's not a lie either, it works everywhere else, why would America be the sole exception?

What you describe isn't uniquely American. Yes, many schools tend to make as much profit as possible without surveying what professions are actually needed. I speak 3 languages, and most of the time I worked in jobs I was overqualified for, but I took what I could get, so I do get your point, but I also see, that tying educational funding to property tax is wrong, for a very simple reason: many kids who could do better can't or can hardly escape the cycle of poverty they are born into, while on the other end tutors can make up to 200K a year teaching kids who would never get into an Ivy League school on their own, some even coach them to stay there. Their "birthright" to be there relies upon their fathers and mothers being alumni, and a hefty check they fill out to ensure preferential treatment. The whole thing is messed up, and that's not touching upon the billions made on students being there on an athletic scholarship, they mostly neither receive a prosperous education nor any penny from what they make for the school.

I have to admit, you're one of the few Americans who actually do admit the place isn't one of unlimited resourcing. However, I contest the idea, that jobs go away because of taxation. I've worked for IBM, and by then it had factories in Europe (the last I checked it was relocated to China). They simply did not want to pay American wages corrected with inflation. We were a new market, and they stayed until we too became expensive (I made 3-400 bucks a month), and the taxation rate on the wages was, and still is the highest in Europe for employers. As for the EPA, we could discuss what constitutes as overzealous. Virtually every place on Earth has banned lead paint and asbestos, yet both is being produced and used. The Clean Water Act was born after a frigging river caught fire, and said act has been weakened over the years, not just by Republicans. Ethanol fuel was a disaster (it only led to the toppling of South American, African and Middle Eastern dictatorships), and renewable energy is being blocked at every turn. To a point I even get the resistance, once the North Pole does melt, the oil and gas found there will be enough for another 50 years. It'd be a total *beep* but they weren't born as caring or responsible people.

I think gun sales went down, because it wasn't Clinton who got elected, and there was no need for further reinforcements to fight the "new world order" as they call it. Funny, I should take note, that David Icke did not claim Trump being a reptilian.

There's a reason why new jobs come from the support industry, for the moment it's the pinnacle of globalization. It could be tried to turn back the clock, but that ship sailed, when China was accepted into the WTO. They have more people for manufacturing, and a more investor friendly environment, which cannot be outmatched. That battle was lost when people started to buy more efficient Japanese, French and Korean cars, and that was in the '90s. Sure, a solution has to be found, but Ohio's approach is wrong. Unless a smog could cell visible from space is the way of future, in which case, sure, that's the right way. The silver lining is, condo prices in Denver will go up for people who love clean air (I know it's useless with a smog visible from sky, I meant it sarcastically).

I live in the Gordius Apartment Complex, my interior designer was M.C. Escher.

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I suppose in order to advance a show the rules that have been written down on STONE have to slightly change. We are after all only presupposing that the rules for for the future are correct.

The Asimov robot rules were good for his vision of the future but for story telling now may not always be used.

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That bothers me too, though I'm only two eps in. If someone's death is historically recorded, and they get overwritten, history's been changed. The causality paradox is still there.

Of course, I'm not sure you could write a time-travel plot that doesn't have a hole somewhere -- though I'd say The Final Countdown comes close.

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Well, they're not opposed to changing history; that's the whole point of the Traveler program. Their world is so horrible they're willing to wipe out the timeline they were born in, to create a better one. They try to minimize unintended changes, for the practical reason of not wanting to interfere with their intended changes.

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The multiverse concept comes directly from quantum mechanics. Its most basic formula, the Schrödinger Wave Equation, has solutions that include all possible evolutions of a system. In essence every outcome that is within the laws of physics unfolds at once. The branching timeline picture is just an aid to make the math and physics easy to visualize. But in all likelihood yes, multiple timelines probably are how the real world works. Which means time travel might - not definitely is but might[/i] - be possible.

There would be no paradoxes no matter what a time traveler did. For instance, the so-called grandfather paradox in which you kill your own grandfather before he meets your grandmother. You could do it. You wouldn't fade away or any such nonsense afterward. But one of your parents would never be born, which means you'd never be born either. If you returned to the year you started it would be an altered place, a world where you don't exist, there is no record of your birth, and even if someone you knew is alive there (which they probably wouldn't be) they'd have no memory of ever meeting you.

The big problem with this picture is the moment any significant change occurred, the Traveler program from the future would be different - and they probably wouldn't have you on file as one of their agents. They might not even be the good guys anymore. The Director could have become more like Skynet because of what you changed. Or all communication from the future could cease and you'd be on your own for good. Altering the past would be a final desperate act of altruism because regardless of what happened you couldn't save your own world. That would be a causality paradox. All you could do is help create a timeline where the bad stuff in your history never happens. All the agents for the mission would have to be sent to one point in time, i.e. they'd arrive simultaneously. Contact with the future could be lost almost immediately after. It's hard to say. You couldn't count on any more support from home after arriving so everything you need has to be there. And you could only change one big event. After that history is on a radically different course and you no longer know what's coming any more than the locals.

All time travel stories have their issues. There are always questions of the variety "what if they did [i]this
" which have no good answers, and might even tie the story up in knots. It's hard to write time travel in a way that's convincing and free of blatant plot holes. To some extent you have to cut them a little slack. If they tell an interesting tale and sidestep most of the potential contradictions they're doing a good job.

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yes, its the least disruptive way imaginable to act in the past, short of creating new unaffiliated bodies, which their technology does not allow. they are riffing off the quantum entangle theory (spooky action at a distance), which doesnt require actual mass transfer (i dont think).

in that scenario, the best hosts are able-bodied individuals with no actual life span left - morally, pragmatically.

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a single vote on the SCOTUS, or a few votes in FL in Dade county in 2000 changes an election, likely the state of the ME today, dramatically.

Hitler focuses on invading/conquering Great Britain before attacking the Soviet Union.

a warehouse supervisor at the TSD building does a security check prior to the president's drive-by.

all kinds of pivotal moments/decisions made by one or a few can have enormous consequences.

the river flows downhill, but the topological details, or meanders, are subject to modification, because humanity isnt water.

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