REPULSIVE!
I still can't believe that Batman had sex with a goddamn teenager. They demoralized the character on BvS, now this *beep* Where is the moral ground of this character?
shareBatgirl is not a teenager in this. She's got to be at least in her mid-20s (and in the graphic novel Babs appears to be noticeably older). It was a mistake, though, for both of them, but Barbara was the one who initiated the encounter.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
It is fundamentally wrong, Batgirl was created to be the love interest of Robin, lol It was pointless enough back them, now they use her as a sex tool again? And from all possible characters, they choose Batman? She was named Batgirl for a reason, her character represents the young justice, the student, not a love interest. That is lazy writing, they don't figure out a way to bond the male character with the female. Sex was the shortcut... And considering the scenario and the back story, it was a disgusting shortcut.
shareHey, I'm fine with you objecting to Batman and Batgirl's intercourse. It was meant to be a mistake for both of them. But your first post gave the wrong reasons (at least in part). Age wasn't the issue; it's just too bad that the film didn't make that more clear.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
Age is not the issue, the moral is the issue. She was named "girl" not only because of her age, she is an student, a character that represents the younger generation. She having sex with batman is the same of a student having sex with his teacher. In this case, the teacher is basically represented as an assexual character who resisted to have sex even with woman he loves (Selina, Thalia, etc). He even resist Poison Ivy, lol All this background and character development... For him to succumbs for Babs? Out of nohwere? That doesn't make any *beep* sense, Batman has a moral code. That's the fun of the character, he is a sociopath driven by a strict moral code. Teenager or not, she still is his student and protege, she is the daughter of one of the few man he respects. This scenario is all messed up, a know character by his moral ground is now murdering people on movies and banging students on animations? C'mon now...
shareGo back and read my last post. I am not disagreeing with you.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
You said it all, acesso-33! BatGIRL (not BatWOMAN) represents Batman's legacy, the next generation of crimefighters driven by the will of bringing justice to a failed society. She is his apprentice, his student, she is supposed to be his adopted son's girlfriend for christ's sake! Batman is an older and wiser figure that is supposed to guide and protect that girl not *beep* her brains out. I totally got your back on this one. Not only it was unconfortable and of really bad taste it was *beep*ing flawed and a flawed Batman is no Batman. That's the whole point of this particular hero. Bruce Wayne is human. He is limited, vulnerable, MORTAL. The Batman is not. He's a symbol. Something you can't corrupt, break or forget. Villains can tear his body apart, poison and lacerate not only him but the ones he swore to protect but what keeps people's hope from fading is the well known fact that whatever the world manages to throw against him, the Batman will NEVER STOP. He may fall but he will always rise again and continue to fight for them, for what he believes in, for you can twist, bend and scar his phisical form but no one will ever tamper it's moral. His ethical code is what sustains his figure, if it's integrity is compromised the Batman dies. That's the whole point of the original Killing Joke. Those two antagonists were looking into each other (even if subconsciously) for a way to end their characters before being consumed by them. The moment the Joker convinces Batman of this reality with that last gag his life is put to an end and the Batman perishes with him for the Batman doesn't kill.
Bruce Wayne can do Thalia, Selina and even young girls in their 20's (that aren't your protégés, of course) for what i care. But when he puts on that mask, he has to be a bloody monument.
That's the point man, that's the freaking point! We know that Batman has huge doses of protagonism, he is like the ultimate Gary Stu, lol But that's the point of his character, the Batman is supposed to be this monument of morality. They did the batsex just for controversy. It's a filthy strategy, but we have to acknowledge that this strategy works in a twisted way. It got people interested on this animation, even the ones who already read the original comic. They could change the character in alternative universes, change his personality, "powers", identities, etc.. Doesn't really matter, the character of Batman is already established as this monument that you brilliantly exemplified.
shareI agree with you acesso, the ball was dropped big time in making Barbara a whiny, hyper-sexualised teenager that batman gives in to. It derails the movie and its focus.
It's unfortunate, because I think that if intro was modified to enforce a platonic mentor-student relationship with a strong emphasises Barbara's in-ability to "not go into the abyss" it would have complimented the Killing Joke section of the movie much better. The main theme of the Killing Joke is the insanity of Gordan and the Joker pushing Batman to the very limit. Why not have the sub-plot explore this and have Barbara recognise that she would eventually kill and decide to give up Batgirl for it? Wouldn't that make her a stronger character (perhaps even stronger than batman who eventually crosses that line) that the movie desperately needed?
How the hell is she '' hyper-sexualized ''?
What the hell are you talking about?
Are you some kind of a Catholic nun or something?
Batwoman is younger than Batgirl. This age sh!t is irrelevant -_-
shareBatman's love interest is supposed to be Catwoman, not Batgirl.
Batgirl belongs with Nightwing/Robin.
Here's the thing, Bats has always gone on and off with women whether you like it or now. Catwoman, Talia Al Ghul (for some reason is such a hearthrob for him), and Vicki Vale (for real?, a reporter?) are three I can name. Not to mention the scene between Bats and Babs was meant to be a mistake with them regretting it subsequently after. However this isn't to say Barbara can't have a full fledged relationship with Tim Drake or Grayson down the road (hell, she's even divided between those two as well). The love scene in this movie literally changes nothing at all. Plenty of folks with morals have done the same thing in and out of fiction when they've had an intense falling out. I believe it's called make up sex XD
shareBatman's love interest is supposed to be Catwoman, not Batgirl.Selina, Talia, Silver St. Cloud, Vicki Vale, etc.; but, yeah, not Barbara.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker share
I'm with Otaku-sempai on this one...not that I'm for Batgirl being romantically linked to Batman.
I think in a strictly storytelling aspect it makes sense. Batman has a similar problem to Superman - the mythos is larger than the original character's intent.
Superman became overpowered and Batman became morally infallible.
They took the main theme of the Killing Joke and by adding the Batgirl subplot - raised the stakes a bit higher. Batman was just that more emotionally vulnerable because of 'this mistake'. It placed Batman on a bit more shaky ground against Joker's arguments.
Can any man lose his sanity if pushed far enough?
Would Batman kill if pushed far enough?
Now Batman crossed the line with Batgirl which was seemingly less temptation than wanting to kill Joker! According to many Batman stories, his greatest fight isn't against the Joker (or any particular villain) but against himself - always struggling to not cross that line.
Batman always returns stronger after failure...his failure with Batgirl, Talia, Robin's death and being defeated by Bane. Batman is an allegory about humanity.
Now what can be cooler than seeing a simple human entering a room of over-powered demi-gods and still being universally considered that baddest ass in the room?
Again, I personally don't care for the romance (hell, it made me downright uncomfortable) but I respect the reasoning behind it. It's got my dollar vote.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree with this statement
by adding the Batgirl subplot - raised the stakes a bit higher. Batman was just that more emotionally vulnerable because of 'this mistake'.
They never tamper the Killing Joke plot with the Batgirl intro. Batman is emotionally detached the entire time, before and after the sex scene, during the killing joke, etc.. He always displayed a cold personality. It doesn't physically changed the character. Mentally we could make suppositions all day, but that's not really the point. If they wanted to create a real conection with the intro, they could show that in a more clear way. I don't believe they did that to complement the story, the intro is there just to fill space. The Killing Joke, if it was adapted bit by bit, that story would have the same length of a typical Batman the animated series episode. That is not enough to be released as a full featured animation. share
You have no idea what you're talking about. It's long been implied that Bruce and Barbara had a thing for a while. The entire point of it was that it WAS wrong for it to happen.
They both feel that way after the fact. Barbara was just a confused, young girl that always had a crush on Batman, not Bruce. Batman on the other hand, was lonely himself and went along with it because it seemed like something Barbara needed to do to understand that its not what she truly wants or needs.
Actually Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)was created for and debuted in the Adam West, Batman TV series. In it she was a librarian at Gotham City Library with a PHD in Library Sciences. This would have made her in her early 20s. At that time, most female superheroes were called girls (Supergirl, Batgirl, Dreamgirl,Elasti-girl, Hawkgirl, etc) all of whom were adult women.
shareActually Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)was created for and debuted in the Adam West, Batman TV series. In it she was a librarian at Gotham City Library with a PHD in Library Sciences. This would have made her in her early 20s,Given how long it generally takes to earn a Ph.D., TV's Batgirl was probably about the same age as her actress, Yvonne Craig, who turned 29 in 1966. I think that it was established in the comics that the Silver-Age Barbara Gordon graduated from high school early and entered college at 16.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker share
now they use her as a sex tool again?
You realize that they used the first half of the movie to actually develop her character instead of just crippling her to advance the plot? In the comic, she didn't do anything other than get shot. Are you familiar with the "Women in Refrigerators" trope?
She was named Batgirl for a reason
So Hellboy is just a boy too?
share
You realize that they used the first half of the movie to actually develop her character instead of just crippling her to advance the plot?
Why? I get the need to develop her character, but I don't give enough of a fiddler's f*@k about Batgirl to sit through a half-hour front-loaded non-plot about crushing on Batman unnecessary to the rest of the narrative. If I did, I'd watch a Batgirl movie. Her backstory would've been better served by flashbacks actually relevant to the plot, which make up a large part of the Joker's mental narrative anyway; why they didn't develop some flashbacks for the other main characters about Barbara's last case, break up that story through the first half, and actually connect it tangentially with the Joker somehow, I don't know, but all we ended up with was something that needs to be skipped past on a second watch. This was just plain bad writing.
In the comic, she didn't do anything other than get shot.
Yes, a comic. Single issue, not a mini-series or a full-length graphic novel. That means no space to get into a Barbara Gordon Bible.
Are you familiar with the "Women in Refrigerators" trope?
Yes, it's part of the reason we can't have drama about women, because the moment anything remotely dramatic happens to even the female supporting characters on these stories, you can guarantee somebody somewhere is going to start a f*@king petition.
I give f*@k zero. It's like giving no f*@ks, only without the calories.share
Look, I'm with you all the way. My response was merely to show Otaku-sempai that despite his assumption that they just used Batgirl as a sex trope, the writers actually tried to develop her as a character rather than use her as a plot device.
shareLook, I'm with you all the way. My response was merely to show Otaku-sempai that despite his assumption that they just used Batgirl as a sex trope, the writers actually tried to develop her as a character rather than use her as a plot device.Except that I never made that assumption. That is what the original story did. I stated that the filmmakers tried to develop Barbara better in this, but were less than completely successful and might have done better with a different take.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker share
Look, I'm with you all the way. My response was merely to show Otaku-sempai that despite his assumption that they just used Batgirl as a sex trope, the writers actually tried to develop her as a character rather than use her as a plot device.
Well, yes, OK, fine, but part of that character development was apparently her wanting to have sex with Batman, the inevitable rooftop battlebang leading her to quit when it made things awkward, and that's very, very lame. She needed a better motive, like for example, if they'd run someone down and deliberately wounded them to make their escape, Batgirl gets angry enough to want him dead and realizes that's a cue for her to quit.
Barbara: I wanted to kill him. I could almost feel my hands around his throat. And it felt like...joy. I think maybe that's what madness feels like. You know that day is coming for you, don't you? You and him. He keeps pushing you, you keep pushing back. How long do you think you can go on before something breaks?
I give f*@k zero. It's like giving no f*@ks, only without the calories.share
Barbara: I wanted to kill him. I could almost feel my hands around his throat. And it felt like...joy. I think maybe that's what madness feels like. You know that day is coming for you, don't you? You and him. He keeps pushing you, you keep pushing back. How long do you think you can go on before something breaks?
Except that's exactly what the movie did. It wasn't just the relationship that made her quit, it was almost being pushed to kill a guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00mABUfxscM
More specifically, this bit:
"It's just as well you know. I saw that abyss you spoke about. Very scary, but so tempting. I don't know how you resist it. I don't think it's humanly possible after a while."
"If themes are all your story has, save your audience the trouble and write an essay instead." share
Batgirl was created to be the love interest of Robin
Lol, what?? I have no idea where you heard that, but she definitely was not.
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dies ist meine unterschrift share
Maybe acesso is thinking of the original Bat-girl, Betty Kane. She really was created to be a female foil for Robin. On the other hand, Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon were made into a couple for a long time in the comics. Their relationship even survived past Dick's infatuation with Koriand'r in the Teen Titans.
"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved." - T. Isabella