MovieChat Forums > Nocturnal Animals (2016) Discussion > Gay Politics and Women's Rights

Gay Politics and Women's Rights


Does anyone else find it interesting that screenwriter Tom Ford decided to give Amy Adams' character some long, irrelevant soliloquy about her gay brother and her intolerant parents, but then added some story element not found in the novel about her character having an abortion as some justifiable reason for her ex-husband's revenge tale?

It's like Ford's waving his rainbow flag and equating (however indirectly) abortion in the mind of a man as tantamount to a brutal abduction and murder all in one fell swoop.

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The fact that you think that the 'revenge' Susan's ex was seeking was solely because of an abortion is ridiculous.

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[deleted]

The fact that you think that the 'revenge' Susan's ex was seeking was solely because of an abortion is ridiculous.


Who said this?

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Who said this? You.

First there was this:

'then added some story element not found in the novel about her character having an abortion as some justifiable reason for her ex-husband's revenge tale?

BTW, if you can't see the abortion's influence in the novel, I don't really know what to tell you.


And there was also this:

'What exactly was the terrible thing she did? Was exercising her right to have an abortion wrong because...she had an abortion? '

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...which was in response to this:

"Does supporting women's rights mean that we can't criticize women who use those rights to do terrible things?"

But this doesn't translate to me thinking that Edward avenged himself against Susan solely on the basis of her secret abortion. Edward fantastically (i.e., via fantasy) 'avenged' himself for multiple things.

That comment was in response to someone else thinking that her abortion was done with the purpose of doing a terrible thing to Edward.

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Was the abortion in the novel Tony and Susan? I never read it, so I don't know; but according to what I read about the novel and the film, it wasn't. So I was operating from that understanding.

Am I a retarded inbred moron for not having read the novel and having gone on such shoddy information? Jesus Christ.

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But why is this so important for you? In the grand scheme of things, who cares what mainstream gay directors do? Why are you going so far as to say that I'm an idiot and incorrigible simply because I observed that Tom Ford added some plot device about abortion to show how Susan hurt Edward alongside his championing of gay rights...to the point of championing abortion as a worthy, purposeful plot device to defend fictional cuckolded men against their fictional devious wives?

Why must everything be such an argument on here, or devolve into insults? We like films and we take different things from them and make observations and debate and discuss and share ideas. Why are people so nasty and combative on here?

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Well, I said I thought the idea was ridiculous, not that you were an idiot or incorrigible.

Smart people can and do say ridiculous things.

I also don't know why it's important for you to continue to point out that Ford is a gay director, but whatever.

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If my wife, whom I loved dearly, did not love me, secretly aborted my child, and abandoned me for a "safe" life and family, and perhaps most of all, betrayed herself as the woman whom I love and believe in, I would be far more enraged and think even worse thoughts than Edward.

My fantasies against her, melding with my regrets at my own failings, and the pain of negotiating the affront to my masculinity, would perhaps manifest in far worse ways than Edward's sublimation of his experience through his novel.

So, yes, I get it. On a human level, I understand. I watch films. I understand lots about people, or at least I try to.

But all I observed was that from an authorial (or directorial/scriptwriting) perspective--that is, one removed from the narrative of the film--was that bit about the abortion even necessary? Perhaps it helps the story, but really, could it have been handled better, perhaps by using another plot device? An example that comes to mind is Mulholland Drive: in the final scenes, when we see the protagonist's flashbacks that show her growing rage and disintegration, there are mere hints through dinner table conversation that Betty is condescended to by her former lover, which is the only reason she managed to get her bit role in the film, and that another lover has taken her place (indicated through a kiss in passing.) It's the discomfort and humiliation she experiences at the dinner table that resonates with us as the audience, and gives explanation to her later decision to have her former lover killed. But with this film, I just observed that it seemed so out of place (i.e., this soliloquy on gay rights), and then for the screenwriter to also add some bit about abortion as some crude and obvious plot device--a convenient device for us, the audience, to think, oh yeah, well, she definitely sucks. Isn't it a tiny bit ironic that Ford would be so progressive in the sense of having liberal audiences pat themselves on the back for their views on the gays (against the backwards Southern conservatives), and then use ABORTION as a plot device for that SAME audience to revile Susan?

We can think of the obverse of this situation, in the film Elizabeth. There a strong independent woman becomes a monarch after being kept away in a tower by her conspiring half-sister for much of her youth. And she encounters a suitor, played by Vincent Cassel, who is brash, lude, and *gasp* wears women's clothing at a baccanial party. She looks at him contemptuously and we the audience are to receive that plot device (i.e., the cross-dressing) as cultural shorthand indicating that he would make a terrible ruler and suitor because, obviously, he's less of a man. (And only real men are rulers? LOL) So in one fell swoop, it's pushing a feminist agenda, CHALLENGING the notion that women are not suited to the role of leadership, but also RELYING on stereotypes against effeminate men as not truly capable of leadership. This cultural shorthand in the minds in the audience furthers the story, but nevertheless betrays that it's not all as progressive as it's all made out to be.

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. . I would be far more enraged and think even worse thoughts than Edward.

Rage is a waste of energy and poisons the angry. After any serious setback, a period of grieving and self-examination is appropriate, before moving on with one's life. This is the prudent course for any person. As far as we know, Edward took his loss like a man and turned his experience into art. According to his note, he felt gratitude toward his ex-spouse for her part in transforming him into a decent author. There's no evidence he harbored any ill-will towards her, apart from a dinner no-show which can be easily explained if one examines the novel's events.
All this barking up the Tree of Revenge is just pursuing red herrings.

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We're talking past each other, but saying the same thing.

Again, I don't see it as a 'revenge' tale, though it could be read that way. If I zoom out all the way, I see it as mostly a postmodern story-in-a-story formal exercise, the subject of which is that tired old yarn of a disintegrated marriage. Who would finance this as a film? Thus, the revenge angle.

That bit about me saying I'd be far more enraged...actually, I probably wouldn't be. This was just more to illustrate that I have emotional depth (and that I'm not some uncritical "women's rights" advocate--in fact, it's precisely these people and their tendencies that I'm drawing attention to). Edward's novel did not have to be revenge; the narrative contents need not have been a metaphor (this is where we get POST-Modern). The manuscript itself, echoed in the fact that the novel Tony and Susan draws attention to itself (is self-conscious) as fiction, was the message. Whatever that says about Edward's character, whether he is vengeful or spiteful or manly or magnanimous, is really beside the point.

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. . that tired old yarn of a disintegrated marriage. Who would finance this as a film?

In the right hands, a disintegrating marriage is far from a tired old yarn - see Bergman - tired old yarns are gangster movies, space operas and superhero fairy tales. Since Ford apparently financed the film, it would be him - and since he's already made a film about a man grieving for his dead lover, he clearly isn't interested in making conventional box office fodder. In actuality, NA is an allegory about how it feels to come out the other side of a disintegrated marriage and achieve peace of mind - nothing more.

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I'm just not as sanguine as you when viewing this film's ending--and I've given you my reasons why from the film. Maybe that's just our different lenses.

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So I don't think these things are ridiculous at all. They're just business-as-usual.

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Consider Braveheart, the macho tale of Scottish Independence.

Mel Gibson decides to paint Prince Edward II as gay and weak and ineffectual: a soft aristocrat under his overbearing and psychotic father, who throws the Prince from a window.

Ok fine, business-as-usual: hardy, manly, straight Scottish nationals against the weak English overlords. Plot device received, understood, and audience sympathies firmly aligned.

But did Gibson give the titular character William Wallace some long solliloquy about how 'backwards' the English are and yet exploit the same 'backwards' thinking in the minds of the audience to further his story?

No, he just straight up went full-on macho.

Maybe Tom Ford could have done the same. Ford should have just went full-on with the abortion thing when it served his narrative purposes and said nothing against Southern conservatives (who also happen to think abortion is wrong as the killing of unborn children--HELLOOOOOOO) when championing well-to-do gays.

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You nailed it. It's quite obvious the political agenda that was being pushed here. And it really damages the film.

The Constitution guarantees equal opportunity, not equal outcome.

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That is a great observation. Yes, I was wondering why he would equate abortion to rape and murder. That seems like a far right wing concept, but the character does not seem right wing at all.

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Why do people have to see liberal politics in everything these days? How come no one ever bangs on about right wing politics in America kicks foreigner butt movies?

'Well I've got two words for you - STFU'

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Does anyone else find it interesting that screenwriter Tom Ford decided to give Amy Adams' character some long, irrelevant soliloquy about her gay brother and her intolerant parents, but then added some story element not found in the novel about her character having an abortion as some justifiable reason for her ex-husband's revenge tale?

I did notice both elements, yes.
But I didn't think they were as contradictory as you seem to think.

Did the movie say the abortion thing was a justifiable reason for revenge? I don't think so. Yes, the suggestion was that this may have been a reason. Or more precisely: we saw it in her flashback, so she remembered it and possibly created this link in her mind. So you might as well interpret that she believes it might be a possible reason for his attempt at revenge (projection), not necessarily that this is the correct conclusion. Edward may have had other reasons, or the entire novel he was writing may not have been an attempt at revenge in the first place; the movie leaves it pretty open in the end, I think.

And even if the novel was indeed a revenge tale, and even the abbortion was indeed Edwards reason for writing it, still I don't think the movie ever claims that this is justifiable.

Also I certainly don't see how this whole thing constitutes "misogyny" with the director, as you mentioned in further replies in this thread.

-- Greetings, RagingR2

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But I didn't think they were as contradictory as you seem to think.

You're correct - it's not at all contradictory. The OP just wanted to make a political point.
The abortion is entirely necessary for the plot. An ex-husband obsessing about being dumped 20 years after the fact is borderline psycho as well as unbelievable. The abortion adds an extra ingredient.
As for Susan's mother - she ostracizes her son for his homosexuality. We see her glacial, controlling personality for ourselves - and apparently she's also racist and elitist. She's not a nice person.

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I don't think Edward was necessarily obsessing about it for 20 years. As he said, everybody writes about themselves and that whole mess was a big deal in his life. Writing the book propably opened some old wounds and that made him go for the revenge after all those years.

And as you said it's not contradictory at all. It's valid plot point and Tom Ford isn't saying anything about abortion. Even characters of the movie ain't saying if they think abortion is bad or not as a whole, some of them thought that in those circumstances it wasn't the right decision. It was all about how Susan was running away from her fears about Edward not making it and them not getting the high life.
Edward couldn't beleave she was running away to get fulfilment from materialistic things even though they were having a baby and she didn't even tell him about being pregnant.

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I don't think Edward was necessarily obsessing about it for 20 years.

None of us have any idea how Edward has spent the last 20 years, but a lot of posters have assumed he's been stewing in misery, and his novel is an attempt to inflict a cutting revenge on his ex-wife.
I'm sure he has regrets about his failed marriage, but as I suggested some time ago, for all we know, he's been dating a lot of hotties, hiking the Rio Grande at weekends and writing novels in those long school vacations. Now he's getting one of them published. That doesn't sound so agonizing to me.

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Why would these things be contradictory? That mainstream gay men took on the Orlando shooting as their tragedy while the true victims were largely Latino non-gender-conforming queers, and yet also use derogatory terms like "trannies," is not contradictory either: it's just something people do.

That Ford, as screenwriter, would add a soliloquy more against conservative Americans than pro-gay (as something of a mirror image of what he did in A Single Man, which read as a plea for gay marriage), and then add a plot device not found in the novel Tony and Susan regarding Susan having an abortion to further the point for us that she "killed his baby," is not contradictory, as you say, either. It's just something people do.

I'm having a really hard time understanding what people see as political and what they don't. Does one (whether a character or a writer) need to hold up a sign that reads "I'm being political here" to preface their statements, or the narrative choices they make? And why is it so difficult for people to see that filmmakers can be political with their aesthetic choices, and yet so easy for many to presume that I'm being political just by reading my critiques thereof?

I'm not saying you're doing this, RagingR2; but just bask in the delicious irony and hypocrisy of it all for a moment with me.

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Read the above posts for my comments on "misogyny" and "homophobia." Ford doesn't 'hate' women. Ford doesn't really think enough about them to hate them--as witnessed in his use of abortion as a plot device to establish why Edward might hate Susan.

"If they're gunning for you, boy...you've already won."

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This is not a movie about gays. This is a movie about integrity. The woman had none just like her parents. The man had a lot of integrity because in spite of his weakness he persevered till the end, sacrificing all in the process.

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I agree. But that's precisely why the soliloquy sticks out, for me, like a sore thumb--and also invites the side-eye with the abortion plot point. Restraint and staying true to the story would have been better here.

In contrast, there's a nice scene in this newest season of Sherlock where Watson's wife figures out how Sherlock inferred that Watson would find a female psychiatrist. She says something along the lines of choosing a female psychiatrist because Watson was tired of having the world explained to him by a man, "...and aren't we all?"

So here the writers are bringing in a little topical element in reference to "mansplaining" but doing so with wit and brevity, rather than making a political 'statement' out of it.

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