MovieChat Forums > The VVitch: A New-England Folktale (2016) Discussion > Why would she become one of them though?

Why would she become one of them though?


That came entirely out of the blue. Unsatisfying end.

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I agree it was a strange choice and felt jarringly inconsistent with Thomasin's established character. By the time she killed her mother, I'd resigned myself to a bitter conclusion. I expected her to starve to death, be gored by a goat, or perhaps make her way back to the village only to be stoned to death as a suspected (but not actual) witch.

I did not expect the film to offer Thomasin an implied choice between 1) a painful, terrifying death that could preserve her chance at an eternity in heaven, and 2) a murderous existence with some pretty frocks and butter that would definitely lead to an eternity boiling in netherworld lava--then have her choose the latter. Only an idiot would choose option #2.

A Puritan like Thomasin would have expected to be tested by the devil and to endure frequent suffering. She would have felt she deserved no better than this even while recognizing it was painful and cruel. Life was not a merry place of blessings in Puritanical thought. The notion that she might rebel against such a system is anachronistic and completely at odds with the Puritan worldview. Even if you ignore this cultural reality, Thomasin was shown to be quite fond of her young brother. She knew the witches and devil were responsible for his torture and death. It makes no sense she would reward those same entities by signing the devil's book.

The ending ruined the movie for me. I cared for Thomasin and respected her efforts throughout the film. Now I'll readily agree the ending was provocative, shocking and a great cinematic spectacle. And perhaps the audience was intended to revel in Thomasin's decision because she had suffered so long and so unfairly throughout the film and now, look, she gets to fly! And, yippee, later there will be butter! But all I could see was that she had just suffered the final, most brutal and humiliating defeat of all. Thomasin had appeared resourceful and caring, but the film ultimately twisted her into an evil fool who would soon enough be heading to an afterlife of eternal, intolerable pain.

I say this as a person who 100% does NOT believe in hell, demons, or anything of the sort. I believe the Puritans were just about as wrong, wrong, wrong-ity wrong as wrong can get when it comes to spiritual beliefs. But in this movie, they are presented as right, so within this story's world, Thomasin's decision left her appallingly doomed.

Now you can try to excuse the film's end by saying the director was attempting to mimic cautionary fairy tales, but this film does not come close to fulfilling the requirements of that genre. Fairy tales use exaggeration and heightened realities. In such works, characters aren't richly developed, they are simply props that allow the morally instructive (or perhaps merely amusing) plot to unfold. If fairy tale characters have personalities, they have one or two traits at most. This film very specifically created an atmosphere of decaying, mundane realism and featured complex characters with nuanced motivations. This does not work as a fairy tale. Furthermore, fairy tales nearly always save the most punitive end for the character who acted in greatest violation of cultural norms and beliefs. In The VVitch, that is the father, not Thomasin. He got off lightly when you compare his fate to Thomasin's.

No, this film simply doesn't fit the fairy tale mode. Instead, it presents complex Puritan characters in a realistic setting and pits them against witches and a devil that the movie shows to be real, not imaginary delusions brought on by malnutrition, stress and ergot fungus. And then it makes the likable, compassionate protagonist choose an alliance with the devil that will inevitably send her to hell.

Sorry this is such a long rant. I loved the first 7/8ths of this movie so much that it was pretty crushing to see such an out-of-character ending. It took the movie from an 8 to a 5.5 for me. I'm happy for those who enjoyed it, but… damn. Literally.

tldr: It violates Thomasin's established Puritan character for her to choose damnation and butter over death and a continued chance at salvation. And it ticked me off. Thbbft!

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I agree, I think what he wanted was to make her rebellious and not down with puritanism and also make the witches the real good ones, like it's all in the perspective but he failed miserably because you can't be good and grind babies.

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It hadn't occurred to me Eggers might have intended the audience to be rooting for the witches. That makes a bit of sense because the film certainly depicts their God as indifferent to the family's suffering no matter how humbly they plead for intervention. Modern audiences might conclude the God character doesn't deserve Thomasin's loyalty and, in fact, has earned her rebellion.

If that is what Eggers was aiming for then, yes: the baby grinding utterly ruined it.

Oh how I wish there were a version of this film with an alternate ending. There is so much brilliance in it, but I can't watch it as-is.

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I think that's what he intended, to say the witches were good and "free" and unfairly persecuted but of course he couldn't pull it off because nothing makes sense, it's so amateurish.

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I think that's what he intended, to say the witches were good and "free" and unfairly persecuted


That's absolutely not what this film says at all. That's just liberals projecting their own warped ideology onto this film even though it doesn't fit in any way.

This film unambiguously asserts the opposite of what you said: that witches are real, witches are evil, and that the witch hunts were justified.

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I think that's what he intended, to say the witches were good and "free" and unfairly persecuted but of course he couldn't pull it off because nothing makes sense, it's so amateurish.


I am literally blown away by how dumb you are.
The way certain people's minds work is absolutely crazy to me.

The fact that you actually think this is the way the director wanted you to interpret the film too LOL.
I made a statement before that the people who hate on this film seem to be morons...
I stand by that.
You are a prime example of this.

Let me tell you a fact.....This film/story.......MADE SENSE.
You just failed to understand it.

What I just said is not my personal opinion.

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Whatever you say, imbecile.

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Mate, you completely misinterpret the film and then insult the film for being something it isn't.

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But this religious BS is one of the Devils biggest recruiters. The witches represent nature and natural life on earth and the Puritans completely reject that so much that you can go insane. Ironically the religion is the biggest culprit here. Its like blaming a heroin addict for succumbing to it at the addicts weakest moment. Religion is simultaneously waving the bag of heroin in your face while saying your *beep* if you do it.

Also, again, the movie does not depict the religion as good, so I question if Thomasins decision was the ultimate evil. I say she rejected heaven but also rejected stupidity and following morons around. What she chose was butter and dresses. This will be her hell. Its not heaven which is probably way more awesome but its also probably not burning in fire for eternity either. Its being stuck in this world albeit the best of it.

Christianity says become like lambs. Thomasin chose to become a wolf. People look up to wolves more but lambs have it better.

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I agree the absurd tenets of Puritan belief harm adherents and set them up to be tempted to "evil" when they could otherwise have lived happy, natural lives.

But that is, sadly, not what Eggers focuses on in this movie. I would have loved it if he had tackled this subject from a modern, enlightened point of view and had depicted the witches in the way you suggest--as living in keeping with nature. If Thomasin had seen that and had, rationally, been able to compare her family's damaging beliefs with the uplifting lifestyle of benign nature-accepting witches, this would have been a completely different experience. But we got the Puritan version of witches, with all the infant-slaughtering and bloody-fat-and-viscera-smearing that implies. Nothing natural about that.

I fully agree with you that Eggers didn't depict the Puritan faith as good. He depicted it as it was, and it wasn't good. I think you and I can agree that the Puritan faith just sucks. Not sure you've studied it, but in case you haven't: they didn't view God as a loving entity who wanted to save everyone and who cared about human suffering. Not at all. The Puritan God was simply all-powerful and there was nothing a human could do to win salvation except hope that, by God's whim, it would be granted. To snub him was to guarantee an eternity of torture upon exiting the mortal realm.

If you don't think about the ramifications, then sure: it may sound appealing to rebel against a God that's so much of a cruel, egomaniacal jerk, but it's actually just a guarantee of eternal torture. No one would sign up for that.

But in this movie, Thomasin did. And I don't think that's fair storytelling.

If I understand you right, you don't believe Thomasin's choice in The VVitch is going to doom her to burning in fire for eternity--that her hell is just going to be butter and dresses. But the movie contradicts this. Her soul is absolutely at stake. If it weren't--if it were simply, as you suggest, that Black Phillip wants her to debauch herself in silk and indulge in delicious living--then there would be no need to sign the book. Signing implies a contract. Every aspect of Puritan belief with regards to witches and the devil seems scrupulously accurate in The VVitch, so it's illogical to conclude the signing of the book isn't, likewise, exactly what Puritan belief teaches it is: the formal giving of Thomasin's soul to the devil and the consequent damnation that accompanies it.

Look, I don't believe in hell. At all. And I think organized religion has been one of the more damaging concepts humans have hatched. Eggers could have made a movie that approached the subject that way, but he didn't. In the story world of The VVitch, the Puritan religion is actually true. And Thomasin is going to burn in a lake of fire and have unquenchable thirst and agony for all the centuries that will unfurl through eternity--in exchange for some nice churned dairy products and silky dresses for the span of a human life. And she, as a Puritan, fully understands these stakes!

This is not plausible. It would be like a modern human accepting a one-year stay at a nice resort in exchange for spending the following 60 (or more) years of life being burned constantly by acid baths and denied water, but kept alive by artificial means. It is torture without end. Only Homer Simpson would accept such a deal.

You can't just apply your (actually our) modern dismissal of religion to make the argument that Thomasin won't go to hell. That's like watching a Harry Potter film and dismissing the notion that Voldemort's killing curse presents risk to Harry Potter because, in our world, we know that saying Avada Kedavra can't kill people. In the story world of Harry Potter, when witches say and mean Avada Kedavra, people die. In the story world of The VVitch, when a girl signs the devil's book, she is going to eternally fry.

There is nothing in the movie that supports her making such a ruinous, self-hating decision.

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I see what Thomasin did as akin to becoming like the vampires were in Interview with a Vampire. They stay alive in this world by slaughtering babies. Slaughtering babies was more than just to fly, its for making them young and attractive again, the seductive witch but with the old hand explains that. Their hell is watching everyone else die and go to heaven which according to Calebs deathbed scene is something like eternal ecstasy. Sure today we all think that hell is living in cave of fire but with the vampire mythology, Im not sure that was always the viewpoint. The vampire analogy makes much more sense as an analogy to hell than a lake of fire. By refusing God you put all your faith in the material so your soul stays in the material, not the spiritual.

This viewpoint makes much more sense because, what would the devil get out of frying people? Wouldnt he much rather have friends, though extremely jaded and depressed they will become?

Also I dont think you can necessarily say that because the puritans believed thats what hell was like that the movie is saying thats what it actually is because as you say, who would do it? Sure Thomasin was brought up to believe what her parents believed but the movie is sprinkled with clues that say that Thomasin was more intelligent than her parents, who were foolish, sympathetic but foolish. So she could have had a realization of what partnering up with Black Phillip could be like while her head was down after killing her mother. Also she could have said to herself that her parents and therefore her religion couldnt be right, because look at what happens if you follow it strictly, that couldnt be godly.

As for blood smearing being unnatural, I say it is if you look at it metaphorically, which is what witches, vampires and werewolves are. Compare the blood smearing to being a wolf and killing other living beings to stay alive. Lambs, who are metaphorical to christian thinking, eat grass and have as much as they can stand and also stay alive because they are useful to humans (wool, milk) but are seen as wimpy. Thomasin chose to be a wolf with all the pride and freedom and being at the top of the chain but live a much harder life.

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I did not expect the film to offer Thomasin an implied choice between 1) a painful, terrifying death that could preserve her chance at an eternity in heaven, and 2) a murderous existence with some pretty frocks and butter that would definitely lead to an eternity boiling in netherworld lava--then have her choose the latter. Only an idiot would choose option #2.


Thomasin made the right choice in a bad situation. She's going to hell anyway:

1. God did nothing to save the family so we assume they're already abandoned spiritually. Even he dad repenting did nothing.

2. She killed her mom. Murder = hell.

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I have two reasons that I believe:

1. She had no one else. They were banished by the village (and even if she returned they would execute her for murder if not witchcraft) and she couldn't get to England alone.

2. Her christian god had failed her. The dad repented and begged for the souls of his children, but was still killed and his kids still dragged, we assume, kicking and screaming to hell.

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2. Her christian god had failed her. The dad repented and begged for the souls of his children, but was still killed and his kids still dragged, we assume, kicking and screaming to hell.


Why would she believe that? She was a puritan, raised to believe in God's mysterious ways. Stop making excuses for a *beep* film.

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2. Her christian god had failed her. The dad repented and begged for the souls of his children, but was still killed and his kids still dragged, we assume, kicking and screaming to hell.

Why would she believe that? She was a puritan, raised to believe in God's mysterious ways. Stop making excuses for a *beep* film.


Because the family themselves worried about that. The son asked about Sam. The mom cried for the soul of her son.

They all were terrified that they were doomed to hell even before the *beep* happened.

I'm not making excuses. You ask questions and others are answering. I just paid attention to the dialogue. Their god was scary.

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Yes they prayed for his soul because they believed God was real. No way would they turn back from him just because of what happened.

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What choice does she really have? Either become a witch or starve to death or eventually be murdered by them.

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It felt random at first, but after thinking some more, the ending made sense. Think of her circumstances.

Her family is dead. Even when they were alive, she was gonna be dumped to another family anyway. She felt unloved by the mother and saw the hypocrisy and pride of her father, despite their religiosity. She needs to survive, and she turns to Black Phillip to see what he can offer her.

She also missed having comforts and luxuries. When she talked about England, she missed the beauty and glass. The devil tempted her with the promise of savory food, pretty dresses, and “to live deliciously.” The devil managed to tempt her, and it wasn’t difficult given the awful circumstances and unfair persecution she endured.

Lastly, the devil actually responds to her. He responds to her first “summoning,” while praying to God throughout the whole movie did not help her. In an early scene, she’s begging for God to save her, make her better and not have sin in her heart. She watches her family constant break down in prayer, such as when her father, near the end of the movie, is weeping on his knees and literally begging God to spare his children. The devil, on the other hand, actually responds to Thomasin. He gets her to sign the book and she lets him “guide her hand.”

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Actually, it makes perfect sense. Although she was truly horrified at what befell her family, consider that in the end, she is a young girl alone in the wilderness. At this point she can either 1) starve on a farm she can't work by herself, 2) probably get lost and starve trying to go back to the commonwealth on foot, or 3) even if she makes it to the commonwealth, by some miracle, probably get executed for a witch by the people there when they find out what happened.

Also consider what has transpired from her perspective: she was the last to leave the church her father left, and is the only one to look back. We see her praying devoutly, genuinely seeking to have her doubts swept away, and her faith in God and that she will go to heaven restored. And while she begs for God's mercy and grace, her family turns on her, her younger siblings bore false witness against her, her father let her take the blame for stealing a silver cup he took and sold, and her mother turned on her rage and hatred, blaming her wrongly for Caleb's death. She prayed for God's help without effect, but saw Satan's power work to devastating effect, leaving her alone with literally no where to turn if she wants to live.

As she sees it, God turned a deaf ear to all of her pleas, so... Off to the devil who shows his power, and literally lifts her up in ecstasy, instead of making her feel guilty all the time, the way the puritanical religion of her parents did.

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If you look at the entire family, she was the only one who, for the most part, took the blame for every wrongdoing. She was "pure", so to speak. This made her different from the rest of her family, and in my eyes is connected to her path as a witch.

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