British Vocabulary - And Then There Were None (2015) Discussion

[–] Seraphor 8 years ago

As a Brit, I admit that I didn't know what chancery meant before this, however I'm fairly sure 'Red Herring' should be more than well known enough for most people. It's a very common phrase and unless this is the first piece of brit literature you've experienced then I'm surprised you've never come across it.
I'm sure that this was made primarily for the British market anyway.

reply

[–] ryan-j-gallienne 8 years ago

I agree. Why should arguably one of the greatest pieces of Crime Literature be changed just because some people in the twenty first century don't understand some of the words?

I don't expect American films to be dubbed for my English ears, I just accept that I may not understand every word uttered.

reply

[–] randommovies2002 8 years ago

I'm American, and I HATE it when they change words for the American audience. It feels inauthentic. If there's something I don't understand, I can easily look it up (or ask a question on IMDb).

Additionally, I really hate it when American characters in a UK film or program are given dialogue that an American would never say (English idiom). It really sticks out, and I wonder why the American actor playing the lines didn't tell the director that the dialogue was "too English" and not remotely American.

reply

[–] Dreamsincolour 8 years ago

Additionally, I really hate it when American characters in a UK film or program are given dialogue that an American would never say (English idiom). It really sticks out, and I wonder why the American actor playing the lines didn't tell the director that the dialogue was "too English" and not remotely American.

I don't know what particular examples you've found inappropriate. I'm not personally conscious of it that way round, and idiom, arguably, is something that a character could be supposed to have picked up through association. So it's more about pronunciation and content than idiom, for me, per se. But I do know what you mean in terms of finding basic wrongness re what characters are obliged to say irritating. What English characters are supposed to say in American shows, sometimes, is just dreadful. And it's not just indicative of completely warped understandings re basic social mores but it perpetuates ridiculous misconceptions too. So I'm also left wondering at the intellect of all those involved who didn't have the wit or right thinking sense to correct very basic mistakes.

And pronunciation wise, a silly example that irritated the hell out of me recently was in the Constantine series that I've only just watched. I didn't think it was very good on lots of levels, but to have an English actor play an English character who's not supposed to pronounce his own name appropriately, was just too stupid for words!

reply

[–] Lilytoby 8 years ago

Matt Ryan is actually Welsh, putting on an English accent, which might be why.

reply

[–] Miles-10 8 years ago

I know what Randommovies is talking about. For example, in the comedy film "FAQ about Time Travel" an American character says something like "That has been sorted," which is a very not-American expression. Americans sometimes say that something has been "sorted out" but this is rare whereas the British are forever "sorting" this or that, or getting "somebody sorted" (Americans never speak of sorting a person or persons). This is a distinctly British expression. (I could rant about this in a fashion comparable to the Monty Python rant in "The Meaning of Life" about how Americans are always saying "Let me tell you about this or that".)

The expressions mentioned by the original poster don't necessarily qualify as problems. "Red herring" is, indeed, a term used in all English-speaking literary criticism whether pop or high-minded criticism. My wife and I watch lots of mysteries, and we are always turning to each other and saying, "That's a red herring", meaning, for example, the writers are steering us to suspect the butler when the show isn't even half over, so the real killer is probably not the butler.

Expressions in "Then There Were None" that might perplex Americans even more than "chancery" include "God-botherer", a person who talks about God so much that it is annoying, (especially if the person is hypocritical), and "bog", meaning toilets or the restroom.

I enjoy Britishisms. I like learning them. I have a book entitled "British English A to Zed" by a UK-dwelling American named Norman W. Schur, and I keep it next to the couch while I watch UK shows and movies. If I find one that Schur does not have, I research it and write it in the margin on the appropriate page. (Schur lists expressions alphabetically, of course.)

reply

[–] teresah233 8 years ago

I also hate it when British shows change the original British expressions and words. I've been an Anglophile for over 50 years and love to listen to the way they put things. It's fun to learn new expressions, new words.

reply

[–] Jimmy-128 8 years ago

If there's something I don't understand, I can easily look it up (or ask a question on IMDb).

Hear, hear!!!!!!! [applauds]

reply

[–] [email protected] 8 years ago

There are times when I am greatly exasperated by my fellow "Yanks", and their complete and utter inability to understand anything unless it's dumbed down for them. Indeed, I was not at all surprised when I made an expensive phone call to London, to ask about the reason why legendary author Tom Holt was not published in the USA, and why I had to buy the books on trips to Canada and through Amazon UK. The very kind lady I spoke to, told me she knew why, but didn't wish to say. I asked her to please tell me, as I wouldn't be offended or anything of of the sort. She replied "Because Americans are too bloody stupid to understand the classical mythology Holt bases his works on, and are also incapable of appreciating his wit."

Considering this came as we were being subjected to a pResident with an IQ slightly higher than his shoe size, I was not at all surprised or insulted, just greatly saddened.

reply

[–] greenegg 8 years ago

Thanks for sharing a fabulous anecdote. My great-grandparents were British, so I grew up hearing plenty of British usage. My grandmother kept all of Christie's works at her beach house in DE, so each summer, I plowed through numerous Christie mysteries. If I remember correctly, my grandmother's edition was known as Ten Little Indians. I also specialized in British literature, so chancery was a familiar term (from Bleak House and other works).

I'm equally fed up with my fellow Americans complaining about British and other international idioms; why can't people just look things up? It's easier than ever to check meanings with all our gadgets. All this ignorant and proud of it crap needs to end; it is neither amusing, nor charming. It's just embarrassing. It reminds me of all the morons who keep referring to the Duchess of Cambridge as Kate Middleton; it's so rude. I was always taught to use people's proper forms of address until otherwise informed.

Put puppy mills out of business: never buy dogs from pet shops! 

reply

[–] maggieameanderings 8 years ago

I'm equally fed up with my fellow Americans complaining about British and other international idioms; why can't people just look things up. It's easier than ever to check meanings with all our gadgets. All this ignorant and proud of it crap needs to end; it is neither amusing, nor charming. It's just embarrassing. It reminds me of all the morons who keep referring to the Duchess of Cambridge as Kate Middleton; it's so rude. I was always taught to use people's proper forms of address until otherwise informed.

Excuse me!!! When the whole of the British tabloid constantly had headlines about Princess Di.

You know, The Princess of Wales later Diana, Princess of Wales. You know the woman who never in her entire life was Princess Diana much less Princess Di.

reply

[–] greenegg 8 years ago

The British tabloids are equally awful. Even the best of countries have their rude people.

Put puppy mills out of business: never buy dogs from pet shops! 

reply

[–] ricoliv 7 years ago

It's a pity you didn't have enough class to refrain from airing your political bias while relating an otherwise informative anecdote.

reply

[–] lawdy-freakin-dah 8 years ago

In Total agreement. I am in the States and Red Herring is also a term used here.

Chancery that is another story.

reply

[–] berry1273 8 years ago

I enjoy reading a lot of Catherine Cookson's oldest books. They are full of colorful words that I am always running to Google to see what the character is actually saying.

I do not want books, tv, movies, and plays to do away with the authors words! The authors deserve to have their work presented the way they wrote it. That is the way people learn... by being expose to something new and different from the norm in their lives!

reply

[–] CharlesTheBold 8 years ago

Putting unfamilar words in a glossary makes a lot more sense than rewriting the author's words, particularly when the editor has far less intelligence than the author.

Rowling's American publishers made fools of themselves trying to "Americanize" her first book. She ingeniously adapted a legend about a midieval philosopher who had discovered immortality and merged it in with the Voldamort story. Scholastic was too stupid to see what she was doing and replaced "the Philosopher's Stone" with the meaningless "Sorcerer's Stone". And by following the editor's mistake, Hollywood had to make two versions of each movie just so they could replace "Philosopher" by "Sorcerer" in the dialogue.

reply

[–] nmadura 8 years ago

I'm American and have read shelves full of British authors so for the most part British idioms and usage I understand and translate subconsciously as I go, for example the British tend to use floor whether indoors or outdoors when an to American floor is inside and ground is outside, clothes are another common usage that is different jumper for the American sweater, waistcoat = vest, etc. Chancery, I always thought was some sort of government office having to do with the law field, didn't know it mean hopeless predicament, which certainly was apropos of the 10 peoples position. Red herring, I don't think is British or maybe originated there but a general common knowledge term by now.

I believe the producers/screenwriter thought most of viewers could deduce unsure meanings by context and didn't find anything obscure in the language. My larger issue is the accents in some British productions, along with very local slang. To me, some thick regional UK accents can be bordering on incomprehensible but not in this production. No problem understanding every word. And I especially love that Aidan Turner was allowed to use his native Irish accent by making Lombard Irish, although he does a good RP.

reply

[–] punk_in_chains 8 years ago

Do you have any examples of British people using floor to mean ground outside? Baffled Brit here who can't recall anyone ever using it like that.

reply

[–] nmadura 8 years ago

That example came to mind right away because I was active in a small fandom (Alias Smith and Jones. ASJ) with an relatively large % of the fans based in the UK. When I used to beta read fanfiction (Most of it quite good, there were some talented writers) I was having to change floor to ground quite often as ASJ is based in the American West of the 1880's. Once this was on my reader's radar I started to notice it occasionally in published British author's works but off hand I can't remember which ones. I'd have to go home and search for cited examples.

reply

[–] GaryDennison 8 years ago

I think that in the example quoted, Sam Heughan is referring more to the DIRECTION in which he was looking, not referring the "ground" or "floor" as such. What may also have contributed to the confusion, though, is the British practice of referring to the lower-most level of a three storey building as "the ground floor" (with "first" and "second" floor above it) rather than the American terminology of "first", "second" and "third" floors to describe the same building. Ah .. two nations divided by a common language!

reply

[–] shellieeyre 8 years ago

Do you have any examples of British people using floor to mean ground outside? Baffled Brit here who can't recall anyone ever using it like that.

I'm British and know no one who would use floor for ground either.

I'm the clever one; you're the potato one.

reply

[–] nmadura 8 years ago

I would link the tumblir post but I don't know how to link the specific posting. Anyway at the golden globes the Outlander male lead Sam Heughan (sp?) is outside being interviewed on the red carpet. It has him saying "There are celebrities all around me and all I'm doing is looking at the floor. Because, I'm like, if I step on someones dress, I'm going to get thrown out of here and not invited back." Now I know the actor is Scottish but does that count as sort of example?

From a British author of a very well written LOTR fanfic "Captains and Pawns" by sian22 - "...He pushed strong arms away and spun to take in the scene beside, men gathered around his brother upon the muddied forest floor." chap 7.

reply

[–] wendycscott9 8 years ago

Forest floor is a term used in the United States, too. I have actually heard lots of Americans say ground instead of floor inside. I don't know if it's correct, but it sure happens at times.

reply

[–] teresah233 8 years ago

It drives me crazy when anybody calls the ground outside a floor. I don't know how it got started but it is sooo stupid. I've noticed it in the last 8 years, or so. And I've heard people of many different backgrounds use it: British, Americans, Mexican. I've seen people on the tube living in the UK or the US with foreign accents also misusing the word floor instead of ground. It makes no sense why people misuse this word.

reply

[–] tgovostis 8 years ago

Red Herring is very much in use in the states, and is in no way a distinctly British phrase. The phrase was even used as a character name in Scooby Doo http://scoobydoo.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Herring

reply

[–] Prismark10 8 years ago

Red herring is a common expression.

It's that man again!!

reply

[–] tgovostis 8 years ago

Also, Chancery means

chancery
ˈtʃɑːns(ə)ri/Submit
noun
1.
LAW
(in the UK) the Lord Chancellor's court, a division of the High Court of Justice.
2.
BRITISH
an office attached to an embassy or consulate.

IE the one killed by "chancery" was executed.

reply

[–] rye9969 8 years ago

Communism was just a red herring.

reply

[–] ryan-j-gallienne 8 years ago

Thank you!

I've read this book at least five times over the years and never understood what chancery meant in the concept of the death.

You, my man (woman?) are a legend. They will write songs about you in years to come.

reply

[–] Voice-of-Discernment 8 years ago

"Red herring" is international. So that one's just you.

reply

[–] shellieeyre 8 years ago

Interestingly (or not) Charles Dance played the lawyer Tulkinghorn in the BBC adaptation of Bleak House, a work about an endless case caught up in the complexity of Chancery.

As for the rest, this is an adaptation of a British classic, so no, it shouldn't have been altered for those too lazy to look things up if they don't understand them.

I'm the clever one; you're the potato one.

reply

[–] ib011f9545i 8 years ago

I liked this drama,I agree that red herring is a well known expression and that chancery is obscure but nobody has mentioned the use of modern expression in this version.

There were a couple of expression made me sit up,I can't recall them all but "bog standard" is an old expression that became common a few years ago.

There is always a debate on here when I make comments like this and we are all entitled to our opinion,I was not alive in the 1930s so if someone knows better than me I am willing to be educated.

reply

[–] arto-helenius 8 years ago

I'm neither British or American, so I cannot always hear differences between regional dialects or fully understand idioms. I am from Finland and cannot distinguish dialects in my own language. I have lived several areas in my country, so I have been influenced by several different dialects and also absorbed them in my speech. So I always wonder why people complain that some actors dialect isn't just correct for certain region, because I'm sure also Americans and British move around and they absorb words and ways to speak from others. Languages also change constantly and especially the young absorb words and idioms from their idols.

I think red herring is quite well known internationally. I don't see it as misleading clue per se, but a better offer/clue than other clues. So it lures you to choose it first, because it's most promising one. I think I've seen red herrings first in role playing games and seen them as an extra treaties which you must investigate even though you feel it in your guts that it is most likely misleading or dead end. It is almost like Moby Dick.

Chancery is a government office or a court. In chancery has a little bit different meaning. it is in a hopeless predicament, which is even harder me to understand, because I don't know what predicament means. I knew that chancery meant court or government office, but in this instance it felt wrong definition. Usually being in court or in a government office I feel that I'm or a person is in awkward or in a hopeless situation, back against the wall. Thad led to me reason what in chancery meant.

Some British series are quite hard to understand so I need translation or at least subtitles. especially comedies like Auf Wiedersehen, Pet and Jimmy Nail, Little Britain and Matt Lucas and The Young Ones.

reply

[–] livehindrance 8 years ago

Unbelievable, how dare you ask us to dumb our language down even more for you. Haven't you done enough to it already? As if I should have to watch substandard television because a few lazy ba****ds across the pond are not willing to pick up a dictionary.

Seriously! the bare faced bloody cheek of it.

The BBC role and remit is to Inform, Educate and Entertain. At no point does it mention the need to pander to the whims of a terminal cretin. A foreign one at that.

If you struggled with the language in this show which some consider Agatha's best work, then perhaps I could suggest you try Sesame Street. Maybe even the Teletubbies. They had a vocabulary that may be better suited to your abilities.

Utterly contemptible.

reply

[–] GladyRuth 8 years ago

Thank you, well said. I use closed captioning quite a bit when watching British films and will look up the word before watching more. I've picked up some wonder words along the way.

One recently is collywobbles. I just LOVE using that word now. Americans will say "uh?" but had a chance recently to use it on a Brit and he did not miss a beat.....just went right on with the conversation. I thought he might congratulate me on knowing the word but nope, just took it in stride.

I was using 'crikey' until I looked it up and saw that it means Jesus!! Being a disciple of His I won't be using that one any more.

I also watch Frasier and love Daphne's use of your language. She can get out some pretty good ones.

reply

[–] lynniepinnie22 8 years ago

Btw, Chancery is not a hopeless predicament; it is a division of the High Court. The character was a judge, so it was nothing to do with hopeless predicament s. I think you need a better dictionary!

reply

[–] shellieeyre 8 years ago

Chancery was notorious for being the court where cases went to die in its endless convolutions - see "Bleak House", so it's a metaphor for hopelessness.

I'm the clever one; you're the potato one.

reply