MovieChat Forums > Tut (2015) Discussion > Everyone needs to shut up about the race...

Everyone needs to shut up about the race of the Ancient Eygptians


You're looking at them in a modern "racial" context. Has it occurred to any of you that people in the Ancient Past may have had phenotypes we had never really seen with our own eyes? Obviously I don't think most Egyptians were either nordic European or sub-saharan African. Due to the location of North Africa, it's been inhabited by many kind of people from all over. Middle Easterners from the east of Egypt (which is why it's arabized today), Europeans from the North (Cleopatra was a Macedonian Greek). and Yes, Subsaharans from the south. North Africa is also home to indigenous ethnic groups like the Berbers and Tuaregs. Many of them today have this bronze or brown look.

The point is, who really cares what the actors in this look like? I'm not bothered by the casting of Ben Kingsley or Avan Jogia at all. I think they look fine.

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It is indeed getting really annoying, it needs to stop, this discussion is on every YT video, even here

Cogito ergo sum

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yes it's stop talking about white washing real black kings and queens, but let's complain about there being a black annie, a black girl playing rue in hunger games.




i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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"Real black kings and queens".

Ancient Egypt (Pre-Ptolemy) ethnic portrayal is unknown and hugely complex, people generally agree on a mix between North-African/Saharan/middle-eastern/Persian features with some Nubian component, but we have no way of knowing for sure and this is a debate (and probably will be for a long time) in scientific circles.

There were a lot of different dynasty changes, often caused by an invader overtaking Egypt and ruling it as pharaoh, establishing a new dynasty.
For comparison look at Chinese kingdoms and their history of being invaded by nomadic tribes who then established themselves as the new ruling dynasty before becoming more and more assimilated (culturally and genetically) until they were barely noticeable from a Chinese ruler.

I do agree the characters aren't dark enough for my taste, but again, we don't know what they looked like and the creators of that show had to deal with the same oh controversial issue.

There were "black" Nubian pharaoh (way after the events in this show) for a short period of time who had a huge impact of Egypt.
There were Ethiopian kingdoms who had contact and exchanges with Egypt.
But saying Tut was black and accuse the creator of the show of white washing is utterly retarded.

You cannot compare it to changing the skin color (Black to White or White to Black, both are bad) or personality (personality changes piss me off way way more than skin color changes since it's obviously more impactful) of established and beloved characters which indicate a deliberate will to change those characters.
They are definitely racist who are going to argue against those changes because they are *beep* up individuals only caring about race, but most people will be pissed because they are fans, hell, even if those fans were a minority of protesters, this wouldn't make them wrong in all cases.

But those fans don't participate in the casting process, they don't know if this particular actor was just outstandingly brilliant in this role and not casting him because of his skin color would be detrimental to the movie/tv show.
This is the only valid argument in favor of those changes and the only one that should be used.

You're making a false analogy and stating inaccurate facts.
That's just wrong and makes you look like a lunatic trying to black-wash history which I m guessing isn't the case.

You're not on twitter, you can post a more nuanced comment, better none at all than a blatantly inaccurate one.

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''no way of knowing for sure'' yet there is still artwork displaying black people not ''middle eastern''. what's wrong? are you that threatened that black people were once powerful, and it would damage your white supremacist ego?


You're making a false analogy and stating inaccurate facts.
That's just wrong and makes you look like a lunatic trying to black-wash history which I m guessing isn't the case.



yet here you are trying to white wash africa history. oh dear



i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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You're just kind of willfully stupid, aren't ya?

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[deleted]

How is that fair to say, jackass?

If I were black I'd be pissed off at a halfwit like you defending me.

That said, you assume because I think you are an idiot that I must be a white supremacist trying to hijack black history. Truth is, I think you are an idiot because your posts are idiotic.

Now THAT being said, you ridiculous little turd, I'm pretty damn sure that the ancient Egyptians weren't white. Now tell me again how I'm a white supremacist.



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if you were black and spewing the same rhetoric, you'd be buck dancing for white supremacy.






i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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Okay, so that made no sense. As I said before, you're kind of an idiot.

I really did not want to, but since you are such a silly twat, I felt the need to take a peek at your posting history. Seems 9 out of 10 posts are a bizarre sort of race baiting.

You know, there are people out there doing something positive for race relations. You are not one of them. You are definitely part of the problem. No self-respecting black person wants your lilly-white saltine ass crusading for them, even if you weren't an imbecile.

It's funny that you accuse people who have never made an even slightly racist post (go ahead, check mine) of being white supremacists when you are the actual racist. So next time you imagine those poor black folks need a white knight social justice warrior to fight for them, maybe get it through your racist little mind that they've fought quite well for themselves without your trifling little ass getting involved to raise them up.


P.S. Reading comprehension seems to be a weakness of yours. Maybe less time on IMDB message boards and more time educating yourself would help. Just a nice bit of advice.

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''race baiting'' another common saying used by white supremacists.


You know, there are people out there doing something positive for race relations. You are not one of them.

and you are also not one them. white supremacists like you are dangerous to the black community




i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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Ah, gotcha. You're a troll. Aight. Well, have a nice day.

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You're not black, so you can't say how black people would feel. I am black and I can see that you are a racist apologist. I'm really pleased that white people stand up to idiots like you, so I don't have to.

You are obviously a troll who doesn't get out much. How I hate uneducated keyboard warriors. Spend some of that idle time reading up on your history!

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That's what's really hilarious in this thread: I AM black. If you and Mr. Idiot (eh.. actually, I'm pretty sure this is just a dummy account you can bring up when you've made such an ass out of yourself that you can't explain your way out, so instead you try to establish some sort of pathetic "oh, look, someone agrees with me!" cred) had bothered reading rather than just reacting you might have noticed something.

Okay, I seriously doubt you made it this far as you don't seem very smart or focused, but I digress...

You're not black, so you can't say how black people would feel. I am black and I can see that you are a racist apologist.


Okay, so when you assumed I was not black, you said I could not say how black people feel.

Yet you follow that right up with:

I am black and I can see that you are a racist apologist.


Now you're either being a really clever parody or you are just dumber than a bag of rocks.

So, what I get from you is:

1. Non-Black people can never know the mind and feelings of a Black person.
2. Black people, however, can know everything about you, regardless of skin color or distance, merely through not-really-reading an IMDB post.
3. You are an idiot.


I'm really pleased that white people stand up to idiots like you, so I don't have to.


Heh.
1. "People?" No. One prepubescent little turd mistakenly latched onto me as the source of his/her aggravation and 1st world problems, except he replied to the wrong person, and continued to do so. That's how *beep* ing stupid this whole thing is. You guys are spewing all of your hate rhetoric at someone who was, for the most part, agreeing with you... all because you two were too stupid to actually read the posts. Good job.

2. He/she/it wasn't standing up to anyone. He/she/it was actually trolling, which means Black people are a joke to him/her/it. Is that what you like?

3. Well, since I am Black and you like "that white people stand up to idiots like" me, wouldn't that make you a really weird kind of Uncle Tom? You LIKE how some little turd stands up to a Black man who was just saying "I'm pretty damn sure that the ancient Egyptians weren't white?" Yep. That's what I posted. Feel stupid now? Good.

You are obviously a troll who doesn't get out much.


Yes yes, I must be a troll because you are an idiot. It's the only explanation!

This was weak. It's even weaker because I just accused your other account of being a race-baiting troll. Way to be original, there, you porkchop.

How I hate uneducated keyboard warriors.


There you go knowing everything about me again. Is it difficult to breathe having your head that far up your ass?

It's also incredibly ironic. I don't expect you to get that, but still... it made me laugh.

Spend some of that idle time reading up on your history!


This was funny because it had nothing to do with the rest of the post, or anything else for that matter.

I posted: "I'm pretty damn sure that the ancient Egyptians weren't white."

Now I have you, a proud (if mentally retarded) Black Lady (or, more likely the same prepubescent white kid who has been all over the threads trying to start racial flame wars on this topic and board) telling me I should "read up on my history"

Okay, fine, you win. Tut was White. Egyptians were White. WHITE WHITE WHITE. You happy now? My only argument is that I was pretty sure the ancient Egyptians were NOT white and I got accused of being a White Supremacist for that
and then told, BY A BLACK PERSON NO LESS, that I need to read up on my history...

I'll say something similar to what I said to your other account:

When it comes to representing people of your race/color, you are one of those people who needs to be tied up in a basement somewhere until it's over. You, and people like you are the reason for stereotypes. I loathe people like you, black, white, yellow, red, brown, whatever. You've barely got enough brain cells to operate a TV remote (though I'm sure you get lots of practice*), yet you force those pitiful few little brain cells to stop what they are doing (except the ones that control you shoving food into your mouth*), rally, and try to come up with a coherent thought. You're too stupid to get annoyed when that fails.. because you are too stupid to realize it failed. As far as your vacant cow-eyed stare barely sentient pea-brain knows, you said/wrote/typed something pithy.

But you didn't.


* Because I am black and you said above that being black allows one to know everything about people simply from reading a short post, I tried it. I know now, from reading your post, that you have an enormous ass from sitting on the couch all day eating whatever semi-digestible thing you can shove into that drooling cavernous maw you call a mouth.


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Africa as a whole isn't black, this statement is reductive. Or you're just trolling.

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we are not talking about africa TODAY, after colonization and imperialism. we are talking about africa back then. when black people ruled, in the countries that are being talked about





i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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Most demographic changes happened before western colonization and imperialism.

Africa as a whole isn't and wasn't black (which is also a reductive term, black doesn't mean *beep* to an African, it's a term created by western white men to encompass a rich, diverse and huge group of people solely based on the color of their skin, hell, darkies would be a better term than blacks if it hadn't been sullied by racists, you're reducing all the various ethnicities cultural groups to some homogenic group you call blacks, because that's how you see things in your race obsessed western country, check your *beep* privilege), it's diverse and Egypt was one of the most diverse place in Africa due to it's geographical positioning.

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it was black/moorish before europe colonized the area. stop white washing african land. and the west wouldn't be ''race obsessed'' if white supremacy weren't obsessed with oppressing black people on a daily basis for over 400 years. :)


*Egypt was one of the most diverse place in Africa due to it's geographical positioning* yeah after it was colonized... you do not get to force you way into black people's homeland and then call yourself african. go back to where you came from and give back the resources you stole



i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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"yeah after it was colonized"

European colonization didn't have a demographic impact on Egypt.

And no, the entire west isn't race obsessed, only america for some reason.

I m gonna stop feeding you now, since you're most likely just trolling.

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European colonization didn't have a demographic impact on Egypt.

And no, the entire west isn't race obsessed, only america for some reason


now it's obvious you have no clue about history or you're purposefully being a racist. europe gained their economy from the slave trade not just america (and still refuse to give reparations). they continue to live and steal from africa, and ahve the nerve to open up racist organizations there. white supremacy is worldwide.






i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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No demographic impact, I repeat, no demographic impact or change of the ethnic composition.

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save it for stormfront






i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

http://melanoidnation.org/white-man-warns-all-black

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Well said dude.

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Shut up, sock puppet.

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Why is it every time some one does not agree with you that are automatically a white supremacist racist. That has to be a narrow minded paranoid view of the world. Must be tough to deal with day to day life thinking the racist whitey is around every corner being after you lol.

European influence did not begin in Egypt till Alexander the Great. Till then primarily middle eastern influence I bet, with some Nubian and Ethopian influence as well. If you want an ancient kingdom in Africa that is all black, look at Ethopia, trying to take over others and try to scare people by calling them white supremacists is just ludicrous.

Trying to read up and find out about this series and all I keep finding is racist posts by idiots trying to say everything about ancient Egypt was all black and the white conspiracy trying to make it white when it clearly wasn't, a mix of middle eastern and north african yes.

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because whites supremacy has taught you that white washing black history is okay.








i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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Afrocentrist scum, basing their arguments on total made-up bull$h|t. So backward until this very day but they think they are egyptians. So freaking laughable.




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white supremacist scum. you're a joke if you think anyone with any education would believe a white or even light skin person could survive in ancient africa  stop stealing black history. you're the exact type to claim they were white but then turn around and bring up ''africanz enslavin otha africanzzz''. pick an argument and stick with it





i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

http://melanoidnation.org/white-man-warns-all-black

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Um Rue was black in the Hunger Games book


The description from the book....

"And most hauntingly, a twelve-year-old girl from District 11. She has dark brown skin and eyes, but other than that, she’s very like Prim in size and demeanor."

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look at the racist tweets about the actress playing the part...





i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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What is even more historically questionable could be the depiction of the "Mittani" as black, seeing as how they were located in what is now Turkey and Syria. I bet most people who didn't know of the historical people thought they were Nubians from the south. It's possible, but just seemed odd.

The racial composition of ancient peoples is a mystery, since unlike modern times, they weren't so focused on skin color. They had other things to squabble about.

For example, the Sumerians (in their own language) called themselves the "Black headed people" a definite anomaly to what I just said above, since most cultures didn't define themselves by color. But since they lived in modern day Iraq, we won't know until we can do enough DNA testing to find out.

Which is the whole point of my comment. The racial composition of ancient peoples should be decided by archaeologists, not people who are making assumptions simply based on modern geography. There have been many "great migrations" throughout history. Look at modern day South-Asian Indians. Their skin color is dark, but their features are not African. How? Why? And between them is the Middle East. Why are the Ainu of Japan more caucasian-like than asian?

Maybe the Sumerians were early South Asians?

All questions left best to those who conduct the research on such things, rather than those who make assumptions and guess, or do so because of 21st century political correctness.

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it's not a mystery since there is art work and evolution to back up that they were black. stop white washing african history. black people are not just slaves and savages. they were in positions of power.




i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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Some, but not all. In fact, the different classes were often depicted with different colors...

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stop wasting my time with your BS...






i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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Kingsley is a great actor but if you're doing a movie about 18th dynasty Egypt, why not let that be an opportunity to cast talented Egyptians to play those roles?

I'm very sure if we had a black man in the role of George Washington the entirety of the U.S. would have a conniption fit.

Really my point though is when doing these historically based films and you give it to yet another British actor, you shut out a lot of other talented people who could've been better suited for the role. which could be said about any genre of film, really.

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As an American I can honestly tell you, no, I wouldn't. I'm more interested in the performance.

A similar discussion broke out over a recent Danish movie, Royal Affair. All 3 main roles were well acted, but people seemed far more upset by the fact that 1 of them, Doctor Johann Struensee, was played by a brown-haired actor when the actual man had blond hair, and that the whole movie was in Danish even though the language of the Danish court at the time was German (or sometimes French) and Struensee did not speak Danish at all.

White guys have played Othello, black guys have played Romeo, Native Americans have played Latinos, women have played men and men have played women. One of the better renditions of Richard II had Fiona Shaw in the title role.

So maybe you should look at why you are so uptight about this subject rather than assuming everyone else is.

I find this attitude especially amusing considering that Nonso Anozie has recently played Renfield in the tv series Dracula.

If this is the reason one chooses to watch or not watch a performance, then more power to ya, but you will miss out on great performances.

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its proven george washington was white. that is a fact. these egyptians were not black.....darker skinned white people or like middle easterns...again even then the only blacks were slaves.

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but they were black though. why is it so hard for you to accept that black people ruled, and aren't just slaves, mammy's and butlers.





i've got feelings too, ya know - inbetweeners

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Some egyptians had nubian blood, at some point (almost during 100 years) a nubian dynasty ruled egypt.
And no, blacks weren't just slaves back then, there were powerful African kingdoms.

But you're right on one point Tut's dynasty wasn't black, but he may have had some Nubian blood.
We just don't know for sure.

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Kingsley can look enough like an Egyptian to pull it off. Egyptians aren't black Africans, so this is utter nonsense. Look at Omar Sharif. He played a Russian in Doctor Zhivago. When you cast a role like this, you want a great actor in the role, someone with charisma. Why go on a casting call to Egypt, sifting through unknown actors, searching for one with the right skill set necessary to participate in the project, when you've got a known actor right here, who more than fits the bill? I wouldn't do it. Kingsley would be at the top of my list of any project. He's got that thing that makes him compelling to watch.

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@byhisnoodlyappendage: I agree that "talented Egyptians" would be great in the roles of ancient Egyptians. However, for actual authenticity, those would have to be Copts, as the Copts are the descendants of the indigenous population extant when Egypt was conquered by Arab Muslims. Copts make up about 10% of the total population today. Many converted or intermarried so their Coptic identity has been lost. Sadly, I do not know of any Coptic actors. The most famous Copt whom I know is Boutros Boutros Galli. I have Coptic friends and can tell that the Copts are not "black," i.e., sub-Saharan. That must be a great disappointment to those who keep screaming that ancient Egyptians were "black." Sure, there was a Nubian dynasty for a few hundred years, but everyone knew that those were "black." So what "colour" were the actual Egyptians? That question takes pages and pages of history books without there being a definitive answer. I suggest studying about the Copts. The name itself is a corruption of "Aegyptos," the Greek word for "Egyptian."

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LMAO..you go with your bad self #1 IMDb rockstar..a 1000 many many sorries..

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OP I agree emphatically with you. This debate rears its ugly head every time a historical film or show or mini-series pops up. It's ridiculous. Yes the Egyptians were African but like you said, they more likely resembled other Mediterranean peoples with a bronze complexion. Were there white and black Egyptians? Of course, but neither was the norm. People just need to accept that and enjoy this and others like it for what it is.

What's missing in movies is same as in society: a good sense of work ethic and living up to ideals.

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Everyone will shut up when they stop trying to push a false image and cast actors and actresses that a closer to what the people they are portraying actually actually look like. I love how the people who keep starting threads like this all have something in common with the one's who are pushing this falsehood. YOU may not be bothered, but there are some who are tired of the constant perpetuation of this false image of a group of people, it is just flat out dishonest.

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Everyone needs to learn how to spell Egyptians, Pharaoh, Horemheb, etc.

BTW Pharaoh is a Hebrew word.

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BTW Pharaoh is a Hebrew word.


Not so. Pharaoh is a corruption of the Ancient Egyptian, per aha, literally great house, a term which only started to be applied to the King; in a similar manner to that by which the British Prime Minister is referred to as 10 Downing Street, or the US President as The White House, during the course of Dynasty XVIII.

One also needs to remember that "Moses", although taken as being Hebrew, actually forms an element of many Ancient Egyptian names, such as Thothmoses, Ptahmoses and Anummoses, and means birth. However, it should also be pointed out that, although combining elements of both Hamitic and Semitic languages, Egyptian, like Arabic and Hebrew, doesn't really write down the vowels, so we are left with pronunciations which are based on convention and clues given to us by other contemporary sources, such as Hittite texts.

With regard to the debate on the race of the Ancient Egyptians, whilst it is a matter of historical fact that Dynasty XXV was of *beep* Nubian origin, enough bodies of New kingdom and, early, Third Intermediate Period rulers survive; not to mention the thousands of non-royal skeletons and mummies, to demonstrate that they were not sub-Saharan Africans, but more closely related to the modern day Berbers, or strange as it might seem to some, modern day Egyptians. As has been pointed out elsewhere, DNA studies on the worker's skeletons, found in the Pyramid Builders' cemetery, Giza, show that the modern population of Egypt is pretty much the same as it was in Dynastic times.

This means that, despite claims by the Copts to be the only true Egyptians, their Muslim neighbours can, by and large, also lay claim to that heritage.

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I don't understand the debate either. The race issue has been proven scientifically. There's no reason to debate. They weren't caucasian, they weren't negro, they were closer to middle-eastern than anything. There are plenty of modern descendants of them still around. The only ones keeping the debate alive are revisionist historians and people who just want to claim them as their own.

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Yes, well us intelligent, educated people KNOW this. However this is the internet, and any moron is entitled to come here and spout their garbage. Why not just be entertained by their feeble minds?

"IMdB; where 14 year olds can act like jaded 40 year old critics...'

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They were not closer to Middle Eastern than anything else. DNA tests proved they were closer to Sub Saharan Africans but keep continuing to beleive the whitewashed version of history in your lily white world.

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DNA tests show that modern Egyptians are only 15% different than ancient Egyptians. After all of the wars, invasions, migrations, etc. they are still 85% the same as their ancient ancestors.

There is a wide range of skin color, something the ancient Egyptians apparently didn't care about at all.

I don't care if they used Indians, Persians, Hebrews, Palestinians, Libyans, Liberians, Nigerians, Mexicans, Saudis, Jordanians or even Greeks as actors in the production.

I'm more concerned over the atrocious "making stuff up" and calling it in any way shape or form anything to do with Tut. Aside from the names I don't see much similarity. It's like a play written by a sixth grader that didn't read their history textbook.

I do like the sets, though. The costumes aren't bad. But Tut is wearing the wrong crown too often. And they could have done much better with the jewelry.

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People from the Middle East, N Africa, and S Asia are Caucasians.



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Thank you, OP! Somebody needed to say that. :P



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