MovieChat Forums > Lizzie Borden Took an Ax (2014) Discussion > inappropriate behavior

inappropriate behavior

posted 10 years ago by Gidgit71
18 replies | jump to latest

Not sure if anyone else has posted about this or if it has been addressed...but did anyone else get the "vibe" that Lizzie acted almost flirtatious with her father in certain scenes? And what about the ring that she had given him? It was "shown" often, Lizzie even "coyly" brought it up to him before his death and he sort of looked and sounded both prideful and repulsed by the mention of it...plus when her sister was on the stand it was brought up, and she too had the same affect, but went on to say how much her father treasured it. I guess what I am trying to say/ask is: does anyone think that maybe there was some inappropriate behavior between Lizzie and her father?

[–] Ttebow15 10 years ago

its widely believed there was incest. Im undecided if it was a molestation situation or a seduction to get her way and get daddy dearest to cover for her when she got light fingered in the shops

[–] Gidgit71 10 years ago

That is what I was thinking, I have never heard of the incest angle before watching this. Thanks!

[–] proverbs_25_25 10 years ago

I've heard that a lot of people believe that he molested Lizzie when she was growing up.

[–] LuvvieHowell 10 years ago

It is a theory but there isn't one shred of hard evidence to support it.

Lizzie had "dark moods" and was very neurotic (shoplifting) so that is one of the bases for this conjecture.

On a side note, her biological mother was said to be 'odd' and prone to depression, although they wouldn't have called it by that name back then.

[–] Gidgit71 10 years ago

Wow...I have read some books and of course watched documentaries, just casually I guess you could say, but I think I missed the part about her mother being prone to depression. In the movie the sister said (or was it Lizzie?) that their mom had died when Lizzie was two years old....was there a cause listed (in any documents or what have you)? Possibility of suicide? And how long was the stepmother in their lives? Just grasping at straws here as this bit of information about the mom as it is very intriguing, and could be an insight into the psyche of the Borden girls.
Thanks!

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] morganseer 7 years ago

its widely believed there was incest. Im undecided if it was a molestation situation or a seduction to get her way and get daddy dearest to cover for her when she got light fingered in the shops

From his reaction I tend to infer that in the movie it wasn't meant to be incest. It was just her way or manipulating him, since he seemed to respond to that sometimes. It looked like he had a bit of a weakness for her, and tried to fight it because he believed in strict, moralistic parenting.

Actually, I think the filmmakers got this particular thing right. If he was such an inconsistent parent when she was growing up, it would explain a lot about her character.

BBL

[–] cabrown482 10 years ago

I wondered that too. I was going to ask a similar question. There is definitely a vibe of something going on.
What did you do, Ray?

[–] lakealice 10 years ago

What you are suggesting was definitely inserted into this story by the script writers, although in reality there was no evidence about that. The writers also inserted their version about what happened re the murders, as if it was the truth, when, in reality, no one knows what happened.

[–] circe-13 9 years ago

Actually it's not something the writers of this movie just inserted into the story. It's been said by more than one researcher in more than one book that it is highly probable that Andrew was molesting Lizzie and had for years. Such things occurred just as often then as they do in this day and age, but usually they were things people would refuse to speak of. Neighbors who suspected anything untoward like that back then would certainly not tell any authorities. So there is likely to be little proof other than comments from people questioned during the original investigation about how Lizzie behaved around her father and how he behaved with her, that today we can interpret as possible inappropriate happenings.

[–] journey794 8 years ago

Yup. That's what some theories have said about why Andrew's face was hacked to bits. Think about it - that much aggression, that much overkill (literally)? It does jibe that a victim would want to destroy the face of their tormentor. Just sayin'.

[–] Catbookss (13664) 6 years ago

"So there is likely to be little proof other than comments from people questioned during the original investigation about how Lizzie behaved around her father and how he behaved with her, that today we can interpret as possible inappropriate happenings."

Except there isn't anything, no comments from people who knew them about Lizzie and Andrew's behaviour that points to Andrew having molested her. It's possible it happened. They were a very strange, dysfunctional family, and it wouldn't surprise me if incest was part of it. It's something we'll never know.

[–] bpollen 10 years ago

I think the ring may have been indicative of an inappropriate relationship, or at the least a close one, considering Mr. Borden's reputation (as I understand it) for being cold and a hard nose not given to affection. But then Lizzie was the baby of the family and cuter than Emma. Lizzie was still a toddler when her mother died. It's possible that he had special feelings for her for those reasons, and she had him wrapped around her finger up to a point. In my family we all regarded the baby of the siblings as OUR baby, and she was treated differently.

So maybe that was it. Still....it was odd. Especially considering he'd killed her pets, the birds, by axe not long before the murders. So how close did he feel towards her to do such a thing? Or could it have been jealousy?

[–] Gidgit71 10 years ago

I like how you said "wrapped around her finger"! Maybe the writers were being sly and used the ring as symbolism of that?

[–] mikeflw1 10 years ago

Especially considering he'd killed her pets, the birds, by axe not long before the murders.

As I remember this in the LIFETIME movie's version, (Ricci), the birds seemed to have been killed AFTER she had attempted to buy that party dress on credit, (but had to pay cash, presumably stolen from the mother and/or father), AND shoplifted a mirror, AND went to the party she was forbidden to attend. All of that was pretty bad behavior, and far from the first instance as this version presented it.

It seems to me the killing of the birds was something of a drastic punishment for all that.

I must say this movie was SO confusing though.

Two BIG standouts were the "theory" showing her killing her step-mother and getting her white (likely cotton) slip covered in blood, and merely hiding it behind something in the basement, and the mention of a similar hide-in-the-house-and-kill incident that had occurred nearby --- and was not shown in the trial presentation, or ever mentioned again.

------------------ BTW, the A&E TV version of the show with Elizabeth Montgomery has been available on DVD through Warner Brothers Archive Collection, (which I bought and watched a year or two prior to this movie version), and it is FAR more coherent and actually had a better "theory" of how Lizzie killed the parents, and had been administered opiates, and was under their influence during questioning. This version barely hinted at that. I do not remember any mention of the similar incident in that version though.
Again as I remember it, this version was quite clear that Lizzie's sister lied on the stand about multiple things, AND Lizzie told her *something* after the trial... Then it stated the sister moved out and the two NEVER saw each other again. And, those things were pretty different in the A&E version of this story.

So, I have to wonder which version is closer to "the truth"?

[–] simplemines 10 years ago

So, I have to wonder which version is closer to "the truth"?

The Elizabeth Montgomery version. That movie stuck very close to facts. This mess has almost nothing to do with anything that actually happened (except the stepmother and father being axed to death.)

[–] tim-stein 9 years ago

I know this is almost a year later, but I'm just watching this movie now, and so naturally I am IMDB-ing it, and came across this post. Can't help but compare the Elizabeth Montgomery movie (what I can remember since its been so long since I've seen it) Here's a bit of trivia in case you didn't know: Elizabeth Montgomery happened to be Lizzie Borden's cousin, 6 generations separated. How wild is it that she portrayed her cousin in a movie about her cousin killing her parents.... all without knowing about her familial ties??

[–] Catbookss (13664) 6 years ago

"Two BIG standouts were the "theory" showing her killing her step-mother and getting her white (likely cotton) slip covered in blood, and merely hiding it behind something in the basement, and the mention of a similar hide-in-the-house-and-kill incident that had occurred nearby --- and was not shown in the trial presentation, or ever mentioned again."

Yeah, this is a bad version. Lots of inaccuracies, holes, and bad writing. It's somewhat entertaining if you don't care about it being so off as far as what really happened -- that we know about.

"BTW, the A&E TV version of the show with Elizabeth Montgomery has been available on DVD through Warner Brothers Archive Collection, (which I bought and watched a year or two prior to this movie version), and it is FAR more coherent and actually had a better "theory" of how Lizzie killed the parents, and had been administered opiates, and was under their influence during questioning. This version barely hinted at that. I do not remember any mention of the similar incident in that version though."

I agree, the 1975 version was much better. But to be fair, this version did show her doctor giving her morphine several times, and made it very clear she was suffering from its effects when she was being questioned.