MovieChat Forums > Ida (2013) Discussion > Learn History!

Learn History!

posted 9 years ago by TeeKay94
72 replies | jump to latest

Do you know what I think of this movie as a Pole?
It's just another disgusting attempt to make Polish people look like they were collaborating with the Nazis... Almost as provocative as certain media writing about "Polish death camps", or Obama using that exact phrase...

Now some education for people who enjoyed this movie:

"Polish citizens have the world's highest count of individuals who have been recognized as Righteous Among the Nations by Yad Vashem as non-Jews who saved Jews from extermination during the Holocaust. There are 6,454 (as of 1 January 2014 Polish men and women recognized as "Righteous", about 26 percent of the total number of 24,811 awards.

It is estimated that hundreds of thousands of Poles concealed and aided hundreds of thousands of their Polish-Jewish neighbors. Many of these initiatives were carried out by individuals, but there also existed organized networks of Polish resistance which were dedicated to aiding Jews – most notably, the Żegota organization.

In German-occupied Poland the task of rescuing Jews was especially difficult and dangerous. All household members were punished by death if a Jew was found concealed in their home or on their property. One study estimates that the number of Poles who were killed by the Nazis for aiding Jews was as high as tens of thousands, 704 of whom were posthumously honored with medals."

UPDATE: The Polish Anti-Defamation League (Reduta Dobrego Imienia) has launched a petition against the film, addressed to the state-funded Polish Film Institute, which backed the film, claiming that the film “fails to acknowledge the German occupation” and “that the viewer with no understanding of history may leave the film with the idea that the blame for the Holocaust lies with Poles”.

[–] arafal3 9 years ago

No one is taking away from the fact that so many Poles risked and gave up their lives to help their fellow Jewish neighbors (like my great great grandfather), and that only Poles were issued the death penalty for doing so, but you can't deny that things like this movie and Pok?osie portrayed also happened. Jedwabne happened, and it's no use trying to cover it up. There are good people and there are bad people in every nation.

[–] TeeKay94 9 years ago

There is no clear evidence about Jedwabne. Most historians claim the murder happened by order of the Germans.

[–] Pi-lady 9 years ago

It becomes a problem when almost all movies that get praised internationally portray Poles in a bad light though. Our cinematography has more to offer than Ida or Pokłosie.

Our documentary Warsaw Uprising wasn't even included on the Oscars shortlist and it's a documentary that's been made entirely from documentary materials of the original chronicles - they've been colourized, had sound added.

[–] TeeKay94 9 years ago

Well said, totally agree. That is exactly what I wanted to bring across with my post.

[–] maximafobia 9 years ago

I'm from Italy, and now that I've seen the movie I don't see Poles as bad people.
Every man is an individue, and he is responsible for his own actions. If i'm a bad man and i'm from Italy, is wrong to think that every italian is a bad man.

[–] lubin-freddy 9 years ago

Each people should be responsible for studying its own history, including the Poles. Some, such as the Germans, have made an honest attempt, that has helped create a new reality in Germany. Others, such as the Japanese, still cling to old notions, and refuse to apologize for anything.

I am a teacher, in Israel. Even though I'm often angered by the hypocrisy of many people in the world who criticize Israel with a double standard, I still talk to my students about the more difficult chapters in our own history.

The Poles need to do the same. There were indeed many Righteous Among the Nations in Poland, as well as many act that need to be addressed, without any childish "what about the others?".

Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.

[–] Jim-1439 9 years ago

Even though I'm often angered by the hypocrisy of many people in the world who criticize Israel with a double standard

The hypocrisy and double standard belong to you and other Zionists. I was raised to be proud to be a Jew, but have been made ashamed by Israel.

[–] lubin-freddy 9 years ago

I take offence, not by your position, but by your use of the word YOU, without knowing me, or my positions.

Yes, I live in Israel. But I've been fighting the policies of Israeli governments for over four decades, and don't need to apologize to anyone, no more than anyone need to apologize for his or her government's policies over history. Do you take personal responsibility for all your country has done? I assume not, and would not expect it. We should meet at a different place.

The point that I was making is that many anti-Zionists (not all, maybe not most) are hypocrites, and that they hold Israel to a standard they wouldn't for other countries. I spend six to eight weeks a year travelling, and meet many Americans and Europeans, and we always end up talking politics. I often find it a bit strange that young Europeans see themselves as morally superior, in that THEY live an a region that hasn't had any wars recently (well, at least outside the Balkans), without realizing that (1) the reason is basically that the US, after WWII, made it happen, and (2) their affluent life-style, that enable them to be trekking around Asia or Africa, comes from living off the remaining fat of their own colonial histories.

So while you and I might agree on most issues, I take strong offence from your decision to stereotype me with the use of "YOU", rather than engage me in discussion. The latter is more insightful and meaningful, the former is more fun.

Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.

[–] everlast-7 9 years ago

Please don't confuse zionism with judaism. Israel is an american war base.

___________


[–] montana_dg 9 years ago

Each people should be responsible for studying its own history, including the Poles. Some, such as the Germans, have made an honest attempt, that has helped create a new reality in Germany.

Oh really? And what might that be? Would it be, perhaps, the persistent use of word "Nazi" instead of "German"?

Who were the Nazis? Were they some invaders from outer space, without land or origin?

[–] lubin-freddy 9 years ago

Modern Germany has made a decent attempt to understand its own history. German schools devote much time to holocaust studies. Holocaust denial is against the law.

It's not ideal, but much better than Japan, for example, which still hasn't dealt with its own past, and won't even give the weakest of apologies to the Korean women kidnapped into prostitution, or to the Chinese for the mass war-crimes there.

Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.

[–] montana_dg 9 years ago

Modern Germany has made a decent attempt to understand its own history.

What's there to understand? Germany, blindly following a lunatic, started World War II and was the reason why millions of people died.

Shifting focus to other nations won't deny the fact that it's actually Germany that heavily promotes the separation of the word "Nazi" from "German". Nazis WERE German and that's the first thing modern Germany should understand.

[–] lubin-freddy 9 years ago

I have no idea what you're saying. I'm saying, if you read, is that German society HAS been accepting responsibility over the years.

Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.

[–] Sammy35-873-772735 9 years ago

Ha, and what about Austria? They have never confessed to their blame, many of high nazi officers camefrom Austria. Austrians stay low, never say about the war and their responsibility.

[–] Sponiatowski 9 years ago

Dear TeeKay94:

Has it ever occurred to you that it might not be to Poles' or Poland's benefit to toot their horns too loudly?

Think about it?

To Be Provocative I Often Put An X Where My Middle Initial Ought To Be.

[–] TeeKay94 9 years ago

Those are just facts I posted. The majority of Poles were helping Jews and not collaborating with Germans. Also a lot of non-Jewish Poles died in concentration camps. Movies that show Poles as antisemitic are misleading the international audience and should not be praised.

[–] pibwl 9 years ago

I'm sorry, but small minority of Poles were actively helping Jews. Some collaborated with Germans, and most just tried to survive and not risk too much, and often just turned their heads, or even reported about the Jew from fear. It is a real life, people are only people, and there are not many heroes. And Poles are probably not much different under this respect from other nations. Read about fates of Jews seeking help in a province, eg. "Jest taki piękny słoneczny dzień". But I'm afraid you'll call it lies or anti-Polish propaganda written by Polish authors.

When the Jews were taken by the Germans, most Christian people probably thought: "it's sad, but I can't risk for strangers". Sadly, there were too many mean people, who would betray their neighbours hiding Jews, or helping the resistance - for money, or just from envy. I recommend to read wartime diaries by Zygmunt Klukowski, a Christian doctor from Szczebrzeszyn.

I must however point out, that there was usually needed an effort of many people to save one Jew - hide, feed, help in illness for 2-3 years - while one mean man was enough to betray the Jew and his helpers...

[–] wegidiusz 9 years ago

It is a real life, people are only people, and there are not many heroes. And Poles are probably not much different under this respect from other nations.

Thats actually quite incorrect, lets take France for example: they get invided by nazis and what do they do? They create pro-nazi government, so that french policeman can look up jews in french documents, and than drive french police cars to pick those jews up and than put them on trains on their way to camps.
When Poland got invaded on the other hand the natural reaction was to fight the germans for as long as possible and never to surrender, when polish army got defeated the natural reaction was to create and underground army (the biggest underground army that ever existed) to keep fighting nazis. There are literally thousands of documented cases of polish families risking their lives to help jews and even if there are few cases where jews were killed by polish people, they happened not because of existence of polish country, but just the opposite, it was because the polish government did not exist at the time and couldn't do anything to stop it.

[–] ivaxxavi 9 years ago

As a Pole I don't have problems with films confronting dark pages of our history. Of course as a nation we never collaborated with Nazis but if there were certain individuals or small groups that helped killing Jews or benefited from Holocaust we shouldn't conceal those facts and I'm glad that Polish filmmakers speak about it.

What worries me is that other nations like Germans, Russians, Ukrainians and to some extent the French and the Dutch choose not to be that honest about their involvement in actions against Jews. Sometimes it looks like they try to pin the blame on somebody else. I particularly disliked portrayal of Polish Home Army partisans (AK) in German TV series "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter".

I think Polanski in "The Pianist" got it right showing villains and decent people on every side because that's how it is with humanity.

[–] lubin-freddy 9 years ago

As I wrote before, each nation need to look at its own history, irrespective of its image. Some nations have done a decent job, others have not.

Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.

[–] merimaro1 9 years ago

and by your opinion who did a decent job, and who didn't!? german's did, and polish didn't !? croat's did!? come on!

[–] lubin-freddy 9 years ago

Much of Polish and Croat society (not all) still see their countries ONLY as victims, but refuse to see how and when there was collaboration in committing genocide.

Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.

[–] couzijn 9 years ago

Much of my country, The Netherlands, see their country only as victim of the Germans during WWII. Do we "refuse to see" too "how and when there was collaboration in committing genocide"? Should The Netherlands 'acknowledge its responsibility' for the Holocaust? Its 'complicity', maybe?

Just asking.

I don't hear you asking for it.

Besides, why in the world do you mention Poland and Croatia in one breath? You know full well that in Croatia, once overrun by the nazi's, a nazi fascist puppet state was installed led by Croatians (Ante Pavélic' Ustaše.) which persecuted 'its own' Croatian Jews, while no such thing occurred in Poland, where German nazi's (and temporarily the Russian Soviets in the East) overrun, occupied, and took over power.

So during the War, the Croatian regime made up of Croatians fought *alongside* nazi Germany, while Poland and its government-in-exile fought vehemently *against* nazi Germany. It is ridiculous to put Poland and Croatia in the same category.

So why do you?

[–] couzijn 9 years ago

I wrote: "I politely await your answers to my questions".

Just to inform you that my politeness has its limits.

[–] lubin-freddy 9 years ago

No, the Netherlands is a different case, which is why I wrote "some countries".

Poland and Croatia are not the same, but both have troublesome histories, for different reasons. The Croats cooperated with the Nazis, some Polish communities committed pogroms against Jews returning from the camps.

So I don't put the two countries, or ANY two countries, in "the same category", but both need to deal with their own histories, as do ALL countries. While The Netherlands is a shining example of enlightenment in Europe (I say that as a frequent visitor), there are aspects of their colonial history that need to be addressed.

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

[–] tintin1-2 9 years ago

Actually, "Polish death camps" is a perfectly legitimate phrase in English. It is used in the same way as we say "Polish mountains", lakes or rivers. Get over yourself, OP.

"who has a BOAT in Denver?!"

[–] ivaxxavi 9 years ago

Auschwitz-Birkenau and the other death camps, including Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor and Treblinka, were conceived, built and operated by Nazi Germany and its allies. The camps were located in German-occupied Poland, the European country with by far the largest Jewish population, but they were most emphatically not "Polish camps". This is not a mere semantic matter. Historical integrity and accuracy hang in the balance.

Any misrepresentation of Poland's role in the Second World War, whether intentional or accidental, would be most regrettable and therefore should not be left unchallenged.

American Jewish Committee 2005.

[–] TeeKay94 9 years ago

It is a grammatically correct phrase. It is completely wrong to say so.

[–] tintin1-2 9 years ago

Riiight.
OK then: what would you call areas where Native Americans were forcefully put and kept against their will, and where many of them still live? As far as I know, they are Indian reservations, not American reservations.
By your logic, the word "Indian" should be banned, shouldn't it? After all, it was the white Americans who devised and maintained those places.

"Polish" is just an adjective. Granted, it could be understood this or that way, except one of them is laughably silly.

"who has a BOAT in Denver?!"

[–] TeeKay94 9 years ago

Apparently you have no sense for "historical" correctness.

If the Indians were forcefully put there (and they were) we should call those reservations "(White) American reservations for Native Americans / Indians". The word Indian should not be banned, there is a historical reason for this "wrong" name being used. I don't know if the White Americans who ran their reservations agreed on a name for those. But I'm sure about the Nazis. Death camps should always be called "German death camps", no matter where they are located geographically considering our present(!) borders. The Germans who devised and maintained every death camp called them "Konzentrationslager" themselves. At first they used the acronym KL but decided later that KZ sounded tougher.

You can find out more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"Polish_death_camp"_controversy

[–] ivaxxavi 9 years ago

So is it ok to call Guantanamo a "Cuban detention camp"? To avoid unnecessary confusion and controversy I think it's better to be careful with choice of words. The official name of Auschwitz is "Auschwitz Birkenau German Nazi Concentration and Extermination Camp" and as Poland didn't exist as a country at that time so I see no reason why some people insist on calling it a "Polish camp".

[–] tomkloss 9 years ago

Riiight.
Then, by YOUR logic(something you seem to fail at), the concentration camps on the territory of German-occupied Poland should be called JEWISH concentration camps if we were to follow the system of assigning an adjective based on the race/religion of the inmates(or the majority of the inmates).
Please, before labeling someone's argument as 'laughably silly', make sure your own does not fail miserably.

Have a great day.

[–] Jim-1439 9 years ago

The message of this thread is that nationalism is, as Einstein said, a disease of mankind. (He said a childhood disease, but there's no sign of humanity growing up.)

[–] TeeKay94 9 years ago

Patriotism does not equal nationalism. Truth has to be told. This movie fails in telling the whole historical truth.

[–] Jim-1439 9 years ago

Patriotism is, generally speaking, cultural attachment to one's homeland or devotion to one's country, although interpretations of the term vary with context, geography and political ideology. It is a set of concepts closely related to those of nationalism.

[–] merimaro1 9 years ago

if you are an american, then better don't talk about nationalism and patriotism. americans are probably the most self -centered nation in the world. you took the role of the world police, with the power you gained through genocide of indians, slavery and stealing third world natural and other resources.
your hypocrisy has no limits. you judge everybody and everything but you don't see *beep* in front of you.
someone mentioned guantanamo, but there are so many other places in middle east, they are not cuban, iraqi, but american prison camps.

and you argue with a man how rightfully point's out that those camps were not built and ran by polish people. and are not supposed to be called polish conc.camps. and only to a foolish ignorant people that may seem the same as polish rivers, mountains etc..

[–] Jim-1439 9 years ago

This movie fails in telling the whole historical truth.

That is true of all movies. This movie is not a history book, and doesn't tell the whole of anything. Your objection is absurd and it's a waste of my time to talk to someone whose mind is so fogged.

[–] kiwikwi 9 years ago

You know what I thought of this movie as a Dane? That it was a story about a Polish woman looking into her family history, and encountering the sort of opportunistic people that one may find in just about every populated area on Earth.

(BTW, nothing says "Jews are totally first-class citizens of Poland!" as consistently using the word "Pole" to mean "residents of Poland who are not Jewish".)

[–] bethhuntington-407-649992 9 years ago

The sentence that you placed in parentheses is, to me, the most- telling of this entire thread.

As a personal preference, I'd like it even better if the sarcasm was omitted.

Nothing says that Jews are NOT considered to be first- class citizens of Poland..."

Still, brilliant observation.

Thank you for sharing it with us.

[–] Jim-1439 9 years ago

Your objections are laden with emotion and ideology and have no basis in reality. The Poles in the movie were friendly to Jews, harbored Jews, or were Jews.

[–] TeeKay94 9 years ago

Watch this movie again. You might have missed the part where the Poles murdered the Jewish family and took their farmhouse.

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Jim-1439 9 years ago

I didn't miss anything, and I pity someone who thinks that a movie in which *one* Pole kills Jews (to avoid his own destruction) will cause people to think that Poland caused the Holocaust.

[–] locham2011 9 years ago

I agree with you Jim! If for every film based on true stories, people would react like TeeKay we can stop telling any story.

[–] mel-268 9 years ago

Of course there was anti-Semitism all over Europe. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Is it possible that maybe this movie isn't really about Polish anti-Semitism?

One character, a Jewish woman who had fought in the Resistance, is in a position of power as a presiding judge, has a car, and lives in a nice apartment. And has sex with every man she meets. To me, she seemed pretty well accepted by her fellow Poles.

Ida/Anna has been living in a convent her whole life with Polish nuns when one of them says, "Oh, you're a Jew. Didn't you know?" Would they have accepted her as one of their own if they were truly anti-Semitic?

Ida/Anna's family were hidden by a Polish man.

It was this man's son, a frightened teenager, who murders the Jewish family. I defend this young man in another post on this board.

Maybe the movie is about the terror the Nazis inflicted on the Polish people. And succeeds in doing this without showing one SS uniform.

I was fortunate enough to see this movie in a theater (it's cinematography is breathtaking and needs a big screen, but that's for another post), and walked away impressed with the resilience of the Polish people. Dealt just about the worst geo-political hand possible - a big flat country inserted between Russia and Germany - the Poles do they best they can.

[–] montana_dg 9 years ago

Dealt just about the worst geo-political hand possible - a big flat country inserted between Russia and Germany

Hey, we're not that flat, you know! We do have mountains. Check The Netherlands for flat ;)

[–] evilcw54 9 years ago

I'm no historian. I did not feel that "Ida" portrayed the Polish people in a derogatory light. I did not come away with the impression that, as a nation, the Poles had been in cahoots with the Nazis.

Indeed the film suggests that old man Szymon protected Ida/Anna, her parents and her young cousin. In the emotionally fraught scene in the wood, his son, whilst digging for the remains of those he had killed, admitted that he had committed the murders. The film implies, I think, that the son's nerve broke - that he feared the discovery of those they were harbouring, and hence his family's destruction at the hands of The Nazis. The picture of Aunt Wanda cradling her baby's skull is difficult to dispel. But the picture of Szymon's son discovering that unburdening his guilt hadn't lightened his load was also very moving. I'm just thankful that life thus far hasn't burdened me with such a terrible dilemma!