MovieChat Forums > The Grand Budapest Hotel (2014) Discussion > Gustave did not die...Zero did?

Gustave did not die...Zero did?

posted 9 years ago by jaschjer-76-904076
47 replies | jump to latest

Hello, watched GBH several times and every time i think about the whole "why doesn't 1960s Zero look anything like 1930s Zero" thing.

Maybe this has already been resolved - in that case - disregard this post.

My conclusion is that the Zero of 1960s is actually Gustave.

My reasoning is this:

As Zero (FM Abraham), who i believe is actually Gsuatve, recalls the story to the author during dinner - he tells the glorified version of the story, where he, Gustave, is a glorified version of himself - better in every way than the real thing (L'Air de Panache).

This is why FM Abraham-Gustave looks nothing like Fiennes-Gustave - Fiennes gustave is how he thinks of himself, how he wants to look, the glorified version - the storybook version.

But why does he call himself Zero if he is in fact Gustave?

A prevalent theme is the bond between Gustave and Zero - they become "brothers".

However during the black and white sequence near the end of the movie - this indicates, i think, that this sequence as the only black and white sequence, is a straight-up lie.
We see gustave challenge the ZZ death squad, threatening them. I do not think he did this - i think he did nothing - Zero was taken of the train and executed - Agatha was taken to concentration camp as she is jewish(birthmark?) and died 2 years later of the "Preussian Grippe". Gustave betrayed his friends in a sense.

Because he did nothing - he is now left with a huge "undeserved" fortune, with all his friends gone - and he regrets his inaction and he "dies" metaphoricaly at this moment. And from this point on takes on the persona of Zero. Also note that "Zero" lives in Gustaves cramped quarters at the Hotel.

Does this make any sense?

[–] Kiririn 9 years ago

What do you mean Gustave's quarters? I'm pretty sure they show in the beginning that it's where Zero slept. Gustave had similar quarters but his were a bit bigger, with room for a table.

[–] Yirone 9 years ago

Interesting idea. Especially since they made it a point that Gustav was always "flirting" with Agatha. If Zero died on that train, Gustav and Agatha might have found each other as lovers after his death.

If I ever rewatch the movie, I'll make sure to keep this theory in mind.

Sometimes, the best answer is a more interesting question.

[–] pandaman-81393 9 years ago

It's an interesting theory, unfortunately the newspaper articles that flash up when Monsieur Jean identifies Zero to the author at the beginning torpedo it. Next time you view the film on dvd/blu-ray you may want to pause on them. They're also interesting to read after you've seen the film if only for the fact that they wrote up full text instead of headlines and lorem ipsum.

[–] cannedbrain 9 years ago

The old Zero didn't sleep in Gustave's room. At the end of the day he took 2 keys, put one inside his pocket and showed the other one (key to Gustave's room) to the writer.

Also, when M. Jean told the writer who the old man was, the writer looked up at 3 clippings. The first 2 had the young Zero's mugshots, one mentioned his wife and baby's deaths and the second one about Gustave's death.

[–] taipafan 8 years ago

1st clipping, Trans Alpine Yodel, Monday, February 17th, 1936
2nd clipping, The Continental Drift, Monday 24th March 1940...should be Sunday.
3rd clipping, Daily Fact, Wednesday, November 28,1950...should be Tuesday.
Only 10.5 years, the photo of Zero turned from a early twenty young man into a seventy+ old man.

Any hints on the date? and on the name of the newspaper?... "Continental Drift"? "Daily Fact"?

[–] sage2112 8 years ago

I think you're like me and reaching for some sort of twist or ... just some sort of hidden gem. Something that makes this film more than it is. And it's just not there.

[–] jaschjer-76-904076 8 years ago

Re-watched the film a few days ago with a friend.
Perhaps your right.

Still - I think there is no doubt that a central point of the movie is how stories are retold. When I re-watched it with the "idea" discussed here its even clearer to me that what we are presented with is an idealized "hyper reality" of what really happened. Its how he remembers it - you remember the good things and forget the bad things - the past is "all rosy".
Except for one episode - the train episode.
The only part of the movie that makes no sense (everything else makes sense even if exaggerated - and is "true") - is the train b&w part. I cannot believe that the zig-zag death squad would simply let zero go after a brawl with Gustave!

I think this is what actually happens: Gustave gets knocked out/overwhelmed by zig-zag. Either zero is shot and killed on the train or sent of to concentration camp being a foreigner. Agatha is sent to concentration camp being a jew (birthmark) - she is already pregnant and gives birth in CC. Both die there (Prussian grippe is what the narrator calls it).

[–] Duncan_Idaho02 8 years ago

You are stuck this single thing in this film making sense to your version of reality. You forget this is a film. A movie. Not every person is going to fit what we think they should look like.

To fit your narrative you have to ignore a great many things. first and foremost are the newspaper articles shown as the author is describing who Zero Moustafa is. We see the headlines as follows:

"Immigrant Claims Fortune" where it is explained how Zero Moustafa claimed his fortune and it also talks about the recent deaths of his wife and child. The photograph accompanying the article is one of Zero as he looked when he was younger.

"Zero Corners Market" where it talks about his fortune and it also talks about AJ Henckles bestowing an award to Zero and talking about the first time he met Zero and the late Gustave H. Later the article talks about how that paper had told the story of his apprenticeship to the late Gustave H and how the death of Gustave was a great blow the young Lobby Boy. It then goes on to say how the death of his wife and infant child 14 months later that is what crushed his spirit. Again, the picture accompanying the article looks much like what we know as zero when he was young.

"Pact With Commissar" where it tells of how Zero made a pact to keep the Grand Budapest Hotel. The accompanying photograph shows the older Zero as F Murray Abraham.

if your premise that zero is actually gustave is correct then why show these articles when the author is talking to the hotel clerk about who the man in the lobby is?

I also disagree with the idea that the black and white scene means it is not true. I believe it being in black and white signifies the death of Gustave H. Gustave H. had been like another father to Zero. he filled a void that had been left with the destruction of zero's village and family by war. Once again war had taken more family from zero. That is why it is shown as black and white.

And yes, Gustave was quite clear he was bisexual. While he obviously leaned more heavily towards females who were blonde, the references about his sexuality are throughout the film.

The film is straight forward. It is a fantastic story being read by a girl in a cemetery. At the end we see that, as mentioned in the article referenced earlier, it was the death of his beloved Agatha and his infant child that truly effected him. And that is why he made sure to keep the grand Budapest hotel. That is where he was truly happy at one point in his life.

[–] jaschjer-76-904076 8 years ago

But everything "we see" in the Movie is by definition re-told many times. As i see it the newspapers is as "they are remembered" and not actually what they were like.

You could also be totally right of course - but what i dont get is if this is a straighforward story, why would the ZZ troops kill Gustave on the Train and leave Zero - an imigrant - to live free.

[–] Duncan_Idaho02 8 years ago

Because Gustave fought them and took their attention away from zero. If the troopers in this film were to be anything like those from Nazi Germany then they would kill bisexuals and gays as easily as they would an immigrant. I believe they simply wanted to kill somebody and Gustave gave them a reason to kill him.

[–] seahawk3133 8 years ago

I am so glad that I read this post....

That reasoning would validate what I thought was a weak movie & that I couldn't grasp how Zero did a Michael Jackson change of skin color.

That makes a lot of sense and gives a different spin to the movie....

I might have to rethink my bashing of this movie now...

[–] tobyspencer79 8 years ago

I have to say, I quite like this theory for the following reasons:

1. The ZZ death squad would not have let Zero, a stateless immigrant go free but kill Gustave instead. In reality, Gustave lived and Zero was killed. I still think he would have tried to stop the death squad, but ultimately he still failed and can't forgive himself.

2. It explains why F. Murray Abraham's character is the same age Gustave would have been in 1968 - mid seventies and not early to mid fifties which Zero would have been. You could argue that some licence was taken with the casting, but why cast an actor who's clearly at least 20 years too old (and looks it) for the character he's playing. As regards the newspaper articles which 'feature' Zero's rise to fame and fortune, these could easily have been a pure fabrication by Gustave to seal his ruse and disappear, to wallow in his own shame and self-pity. He did own the paper after all.

3. A slight stretch this one, but when F.M Abraham is talking about Agatha smuggling the tools into the prison, he remarks that 'She saved us'. Of course, he might have meant 'us' to mean Zero, Gustave and herself as a sort of family unit, having only each other and no apparent family to speak of, but equally, it might have been a slip of the tongue and he literally meant the prison gang, of which Zero was not one.

Also, I believe the B&W scene is so filmed, not because it's Gustave's final moments, but because it shows his failure (to protect his friends) which will hang over him forever. His spirit, charisma, enthusiasm - everything that made Gustave such a colourful character is drained from him, as the colour is so drained from this scene.

[–] lordnimbo 8 years ago

Or, is the 'black and white' scene paying homage to another film that Ralph Fiennes starred in, that was also in 'black and white' and dealt with the horrors of the war, which even in a fictional sense, finally intrudes on their lives, showing the cruel reality of the time (the troops who enter the compartment are not 'clean' somewhat-polite gray-uniformed police-like troops, but dirty 'black uniformed' ZZ (SS) gestapo-like ones). And where the line 'a glimmer of civilization still exist' is now untrue, and there's no saving of Zero through heroic acts.

The 'self-description' of Gustave (but spoken by Zero) at the end of the story, is a self-loathing of what he had become, which resulted in him not standing up for Zero.

Is the 'black and white' scene 'the reality' in the story, where the 'in color' portions are the embellished fantasy.

[–] detune 8 years ago

Zero is an arab. F. Murray Abraham is half Syrian and looks it, so you could argue that he's even more Zero than young Zero. The pencil mustache was added to make young Zero look more arab, but the old one doesn't even need it.