MovieChat Forums > The Grand Budapest Hotel (2014) Discussion > Gustave did not die...Zero did?

Gustave did not die...Zero did?

posted 9 years ago by jaschjer-76-904076
47 replies | jump to latest

Hello, watched GBH several times and every time i think about the whole "why doesn't 1960s Zero look anything like 1930s Zero" thing.

Maybe this has already been resolved - in that case - disregard this post.

My conclusion is that the Zero of 1960s is actually Gustave.

My reasoning is this:

As Zero (FM Abraham), who i believe is actually Gsuatve, recalls the story to the author during dinner - he tells the glorified version of the story, where he, Gustave, is a glorified version of himself - better in every way than the real thing (L'Air de Panache).

This is why FM Abraham-Gustave looks nothing like Fiennes-Gustave - Fiennes gustave is how he thinks of himself, how he wants to look, the glorified version - the storybook version.

But why does he call himself Zero if he is in fact Gustave?

A prevalent theme is the bond between Gustave and Zero - they become "brothers".

However during the black and white sequence near the end of the movie - this indicates, i think, that this sequence as the only black and white sequence, is a straight-up lie.
We see gustave challenge the ZZ death squad, threatening them. I do not think he did this - i think he did nothing - Zero was taken of the train and executed - Agatha was taken to concentration camp as she is jewish(birthmark?) and died 2 years later of the "Preussian Grippe". Gustave betrayed his friends in a sense.

Because he did nothing - he is now left with a huge "undeserved" fortune, with all his friends gone - and he regrets his inaction and he "dies" metaphoricaly at this moment. And from this point on takes on the persona of Zero. Also note that "Zero" lives in Gustaves cramped quarters at the Hotel.

Does this make any sense?

[–] JdgMoonbox 9 years ago

I think that Gustave is too outgoing a personality for it to work. The Death Squad could have seen him as gay and acted out of homophobia, or they could have been paid by Dmitri who has no quarrel with Zero.

Also, I can picture Zero spending so much time indoors that he can lose his tan. I can't see how Gustave could have impersonated Zero in the early days, how he could explain to people that he suddenly got pallid.

[–] jaschjer-76-904076 9 years ago

I dont think its likely that the death squad would see him as gay - there is no hint of this in any part of the movie. On the contrary he is portrayed as quite the ladies man.

Altho he is vain and somewhat effeminate - keep in mind that what i postulate is that this is his view of himself - not the actual truth. So in "real life" he would have been less glamorous (and less likely to be percieved as gay).

The movie is also about how stories are told and retold - and how this affects the message. The movie, the book, the author, Gustave/Zero telling the story, and what actually happened.

[–] JdgMoonbox 9 years ago

I dont think its likely that the death squad would see him as gay - there is no hint of this in any part of the movie. On the contrary he is portrayed as quite the ladies man.

Dmitri saw him as gay. It's quite possible that the head of the death squad picked up on the same vibes.

His picture of himself probably was a lot less impressive than his depiction, but that doesn't mean he was less gay--the reality could have had him even more gay.

[–] jaschjer-76-904076 9 years ago

Dmitri also called him a "con man". I think Dmitri would call him anything to discredit him.

I think the gay idea is too far fetched. I mean they would pick out a gay man on a hunch and execute him - but let the immigrant live?

Then again - maybe all his tall tales about women, was invented to cover over his homosexuality?

But why did WA cast an actor that so clearly does not look like Zero in any way, well beyond his complexion - play the old Zero. This cannot be coincidence.

[–] PreachCaleb 9 years ago

In all fairness, who looks the same in their 50's as they did in their late teens?

Can't stop the signal.

[–] thrillho1010 9 years ago

Actually, I disagree with your assessment of how Gustave was perceived. This line completely goes against your theory:

Pinky: Me and the boys talked it over. We think you're a really straight fellow.

M. Gustave: Well, I've never been accused of that before, but I appreciate the sentiment.

He admitted himself that EVERYONE thought he was gay.

[–] Lester_Burnham_Risen 9 years ago

Both "gay" and "straight" are merely pronks of the last 20 years but movie was almost 100 years ago.

and this was Europe without american political Correctness

http://www.kindleflippages.com/ablog/

[–] jaschjer-76-904076 9 years ago

Thats absurd!

Clearly by saying this they accept him as one of them - and he gets in on the escape plan.

Surely you dont think "C'mon be straight with me" mean, "C'mon be heterosexual with me" ?

[–] MirrorofReflection 9 years ago

It's very difficult to tell since there are so many morons on this website, but I need to ask, were you being sarcastic?

[–] jaschjer-76-904076 9 years ago

My reply was to this:

Pinky: Me and the boys talked it over. We think you're a really straight fellow.

M. Gustave: Well, I've never been accused of that before, but I appreciate the sentiment.

He admitted himself that EVERYONE thought he was gay.

My interpetation of this part is "We think you're a really straight fellow." == "We think you're a person we can trust."

and NOT =/= "We no longer think your homosexual."

Thus "He admitted himself that EVERYONE thought he was gay." is a misinterpretation.

[–] MirrorofReflection 9 years ago

The first part of your interpretation is correct, but you are wrong on the second part. They meant trustworthy, but the reply was a joke, he claimed people thought he was gay. It's a double entendre.

[–] ajenpersuajen 8 years ago

You can't really be wrong on an interpretation though. It's up to the viewer to substantiate what really happens. It could also be that Gustave had never heard anyone call him straight before because thats the general assumption. Nobody goes up to people and ask "hey are you straight" if nothing is out of the ordinary. It could also mean something else entirely. Idk.

[–] Duncan_Idaho02 8 years ago

Gustave was not gay. He was bisexual. And I agree that his comment saying, "Well, Ive never been accused of that before," is definitely referring the continued implication that Gustave was bisexual.

[–] kjhuang17 9 years ago

Also note that "Zero" lives in Gustaves cramped quarters at the Hotel.

Aren't those young Zero's quarters? Gustave stayed in a large room (seen when Zero knocked on his door with news of Madame D's death).

[–] jaschjer-76-904076 9 years ago

I think the scene your thinking of is when Zero knocks on a door with a stack of newspapers. This door looks like a normal hotel room door (number on the door?) - and Gustave is "visiting" one of the rich, old, blond, clients (who can be heard in the background).
Possibly this woman is his "alibi" that he cannot use as she is the wife of the duke of west phalia or something like this.

I think that the only shot of Gustaves room interior is when he is eating dinner/soup (camera pans across many bottles of L'air de Panache). Then again both Zeros and Gustaves room are very similar looking - so i might be mistaken.

[–] Lester_Burnham_Risen 9 years ago

As Zero (FM Abraham), who i believe is actually Gsuatve, recalls the story to the author during dinner - he tells the glorified version of the story, where he, Gustave, is a glorified version of himself - better in every way than the real thing (L'Air de Panache).

---

Yes, only seen it once but I got strong vibes of the Life of Pi method of telling this story and perhaps even Cloud Atlas [and of course Tarantino].

http://www.kindleflippages.com/ablog/

[–] ladyoftheisland 9 years ago

finally saw it for the second time, this never crossed my mind. I think it was full of things like "the most heavily perfumed man I ever knew" which aren't . . . complimentary. but it is an interesting idea.

[–] Skylightmovies 9 years ago

@ jaschjer-76-904076

I really think that you have 'over thunk' this! :)

I mean they sure didn't get the older actor to 'look' like the younger one but in no way does that mean it is to trick the audience and make the audience work out a plot to excuse that casting choice.

Gustave challenged the death squad because that was his way, he spoke his mind.

There are some films which are quite convoluted and make you think that you have to look for layers of hidden meanings to get to the truth of the story.

I think this was just what it was .
A fantastic tale , one man's truth of his own experiences as he saw it.
No more no less.
And it was hilariously portrayed and the cinematography was luxurious.

[–] jaschjer-76-904076 9 years ago

All of WA movies are in the category "Tall tales" - and thats why i like them.

But there is always something more there if you look. You dont have to look - but its not "just" a tale.

But lets say Gustave was killed by the death squad - why did they let Zero live?

Also consider that the movie is "inspired by Stefan Zweig" - in particular these two books:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Post_Office_Girl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beware_of_Pity_(novel)

[–] FacingElimination 9 years ago

WA's movies don't make attempts at realism. So, I don't think he went out of his way to cast older versions that looked like younger versions of either the author or Zero.

There is other evidence of this carefree attitude toward casting. Saiorise Roane's (yeah I butchered that spelling) Irish accent kept coming through. I doubt Agatha was secretly Irish.

[–] catcherbloq 9 years ago

Right. it was pretty clear that Anderson directed all the actors to use their natural accents when performing. The only thing he did line up in casting the older and younger versions of characters was having them come from the same country (i.e., Tom WIlkinson and Jude Law are both Brits, and F Murray Abraham and Tony Revolori are both American). I don't think Saoirse Ronan even tried to cover up her Irish accent. It added to the fantastical context.

OP, I think you've presented a really interesting idea, but I agree with others that you are looking for something that's not there. Gustave's character never would have stood by allowing anything to happen to Zero, and even if he had, there is no reason why he would have uttered the line near the end to the author--while pretending to be Zero--about how his world had vanished long before he entered it. And, yes, poking fun at Gustave's "meterosexualness" was a running joke throughout the film. It line about being accused of being 'straight' was quite deliberately a play on words. Brilliant writing.

_______________________________
Please don't feed the trolls.

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jaschjer-76-904076 9 years ago

Not skin color - but the whole person - face, especially nose, - and adult "zero" is a much more "robuste" frame than the somewhat petite zero(yes i do recognize that zero is very young in the movie).

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Duncan_Idaho02 8 years ago

Good lord, people change when they get older, it happens. Besides, it is not like they were going to find an actor who was going to look exactly like the younger zero just to please people who would otherwise think it was not the same person.

[–] veil182 9 years ago

I will agree, at the very least, that adult Zero looks a lot like an older Gustave

thewritingwriters.wordpress.com

[–] redhotchilipieper 9 years ago

I am not sure if I would stand up against a ZZ death squad to support it, but I certainly appreciate your reading of the film. The most interesting claim in your argument is your postulation that the black and white film reflects the reality as a opposed to the (possible) fantasized ideal. It is unlike Wes Anderson to go without his carefully crafted Crayola boxes of film frames, so he definitely intended the shot to stand out for one reason or another.

[–] kaman-rider 9 years ago

"why doesn't 1960s Zero look anything like 1930s Zero"

That question should be directed to the casting director.
You have a vivid imagination, but I'm afraid it's purely imagining things in this case.
The episode in black & white was because it relates to how Gustave met his unfortunate DEATH. Nothing more.

[–] Off-chka 9 years ago

This does make sense! I thought about it too, but I didn't really think about the black and white scene and how Zero could've died. Your explanation makes sense. And also, the old guy (Zero or Gustave) is about 70, so thirty years ago he would've been 40ish. Young Zero is about 20, but Gustave is 40ish.

[–] Yirone 9 years ago

The age thing is another very good point! Also the fact that Gustav was always "flirting" with Agatha, indicating a love between them might've been also possible if Zero died.

Sometimes, the best answer is a more interesting question.

[–] vitaly-37136 9 years ago

i think the movie is a story within a story within a story. that's why author presents himself as a young Jude Law.

Indian Zero is how the author described him in a book/or how the girl pictured him while reading the book.

that's why the ages and ethnicites do not line up (the older author is also way too old)

[–] PreachCaleb 9 years ago

Well said.

Can't stop the signal.