MovieChat Forums > Superman vs. The Elite (2012) Discussion > so are we supposed to support superman a...

so are we supposed to support superman at the end of this.....

posted 12 years ago by brian_alleyne
43 replies | jump to latest

Because his logic falls sooooooo flat
1)Atomic skull murders tons of innocent people, supes locks him away. Only for him to re-escape and kill more people, just as the elite predicted. When Mancjhester kills him, supes seems more perturbed by his murder (cold blooded as it was) than those of the innocents.

2) Pa Ken pushes the truth Justica and American way thing, which may have been acceptable in the 1940's when America was seen as the defender of the world, but kinda falls flat when alot of the world and some Americans seem kinda disillusioned with it since the 60's.

3) Black is made to look villainous for killing the people in the train, but lets note it was an accident and his soster as going to be hit by the train. Killing the father was totally jerkish tho.

4) The elite SAVED SUPES LIFE and NURSE HIM BACK TO HEALTH!!!!!!!! He shows the least bit of gratitude and is more angry for killing the soldiers who were going to kill him.

5) If he was so concerned about them breaking international law why did he intervene in the conflict anyway??? Sure he saved lives but take a stance and stick to it.

6) For one so concerned about taking lives, injecting Menagerie with a something to stop her from breathing is kinda extreme dontcha think???what if she wasnt recusitated??

My point is this- despite being murderous and destructive, at least the Elite stucj to principle, Supes comes of as self-righteous and hypocritical

[–] chidim 12 years ago

imo, some people 'deserve' to die. its like 'GOD'/Nature (whatever you want to call it) made a 'mistake' with some humans. People who support Superman probably have not had someone important taken away from them, pretty sure you might change your view after that.

Killing these villains is sort of self defense because by killing them you are preventing more pain and suffering. Death sometimes, is the only way. A lion must kill to eat and survive, villains must die so that innocent people may live.

[–] 3PocketCharlie 12 years ago

It may be true that they deserve to die, and the only way to prevent them from comitting further harm is to execute them. The point of the movie is that it not for the defenders like Superman and the Elite to make that call.

In the case of the movie, Atomic Skull was imprisoned. A lot of people blame Superman for his second rampage. But he should have been executed by the proper authorites, not whoever captures him. The only time they should kill is if that is the only way to subdue a villian. Once that villian is subdued, it is the responsibility of the justice system.

All glory to the Hypnotoad

[–] chidim 12 years ago

but that's my issue. why should the 'proper authorities' have the responsibility? these so called laws and justice system were created by stupid mortals who are nothing compared to a 'GOD' like Superman.

The justice system is broken. The main point is, killing villains is a good thing.

[–] 3PocketCharlie 12 years ago

Those people were elected, appointed, educated, and/or trained to do that job, for good or for ill. If the justice system is broken, it should be fixed, not circumvented to satisfy the quick-fix, guilty-by-popular-opinion society we have developed into.

Superman is "godlike" to know he should not be making those decisions.

All glory to the Hypnotoad

[–] Gurillanic 12 years ago

“It is better for one hundred guilty men to go free than one innocent man to go to jail” - Thomas Jefferson

It is a matter of opinion, morals, and what each individual person has grown up with. It's a fight that we need to keep having to determine what we are as a species.

Killing villains because they are villains is NOT a good thing, killing villains to prevent innocents' death is. When someone has submitted, is beaten, it is always a chance for change. If we're killing people because they are villains, then who are those that make the decision on who's a villain? It shouldn't be left in one hand or another, it needs to be made by society.

That being said, yes, I agree, Atomic Skull still posed a threat to all around him and could have killed a bunch more innocents around him. Superman was the only one who would be able to contain him and he should have, but was unwilling. Maybe Black was right on that BUT it shouldn't have been decided between Black and Superman. It should have been decided by society, a group, someone appointed (like a jury, if you will). I believe he was acting in society's interests, but he and Superman shouldn't be where it ended.
When people are handed absolute power and ignore rules, even those placed on themselves, they are corrupted. That is what the story is telling us.
Black may have been right, may have been wrong in killing Atomic Skull. The Elite were wrong when they continued the push against all who oppose them, when they became corrupt. In this, Superman then demonstrates to them exactly how they could have handled it, in his way, then leaves them alive and YES they still have a chance at redemption and showing Superman where the line is vs. where his line is.

And the reason I put the Jefferson quote in at the beginning is that: We all have a chance at redemption when we are in the wrong. It's what we do with it that matters. Serial murderers, those that kill, those that abuse power will meet their ends by those that kill, those that will abuse their power to make theirs better. But if given a chance at redemption, they can stop that cycle. We're here to save the planet here, not punish those.

(And yes, I'm a teacher, yes in a place that many think that the kids I teach are un-redeemable, the villains of society, and yes they can be saved. Not all, I accept. But Many and damn do I do a good job.)

http://www.examiner.com/x-25119-Monte-Vista-Zombie-Examiner <-- Excellent Zombie Advice

[–] michaelkwon 8 years ago

You are not above God. Who gave you the right to decide another life gets to end? Let alone you are not perfect nor holy... never judge anyone. Worry about yourself. All humans are good but also evil so we should all deserve to die right? but did God kill us? He could simply obliterate us but he has shown us mercy and forgiveness. He has faith in mankind so much that he even sacrificed his one and only son. God is the truth. He defines justice and love and his way is the best way because that is the only way. P.s. my father was killed in a robbery when I was a couple years old but that does not change the truth. We live in a corrupted world reigned by Satan but God will not allow that to continue. God is slow to judgement because he wants everyone to be saved. Everyone gets a chance to change. We are actually very lucky that a being with all authority is so patient with us despite 6,000 years of constant disobedience and betrayal towards him, so we too must be patient because he always keeps his word (unlike man). God wants all to be saved which is why the war is not over and which is why we are in the current state that we are in now. Anyways dont point at the sawdust in your brothers eye when theres a plank in your own.

[–] michaelkwon 8 years ago

God is life and Satan is death. Never justify killing. Never. The action of killing proves you do not belong to God.

[–] chaosroach 11 years ago

There was one minor point that I don't think anyone noticed. As it turns out, Black is almost the PERFECT jury to execute the law/capital punishment, because he can READ MINDS. He said he read both of the politicians minds and they both showed they were completely unwilling to compromise and would only escalate the violence until it turned the city into glass. By that standard, his superhero power is in JUDGING based on more truthful evidence than any other being in the movie.

[–] STIMjim 11 years ago

Just because he's able to read someones mind doesn't justify slaughtering them. People can be persuaded and have a change of heart, they can come to a compromise, or the citizens of the country could elect new leaders in a democratic way. There are loads of options available, killing them is the absolute easiest, laziest, and most unfair way to resolve the situation. So if I think about killing someone in an anger filled rage, is it alright to kill me, even though there's a chance I won't commit the crime?

Criminals, super human or not, should be judged in the same way as every other criminal, by a jury of their peers? lol. Regardless of how they do it, I'm sure destroying and killing a lot of people will almost always ensure the death penalty.

It's funny how the Alien being is the most humane.

[–] MrsBuckyBarnes 9 years ago

There was one minor point that I don't think anyone noticed. As it turns out, Black is almost the PERFECT jury to execute the law/capital punishment, because he can READ MINDS. He said he read both of the politicians minds and they both showed they were completely unwilling to compromise and would only escalate the violence until it turned the city into glass. By that standard, his superhero power is in JUDGING based on more truthful evidence than any other being in the movie.

but was he telling the truth? he wasn't exactly honest about his origins was he? he has massive psychological flaws that can and did impair his judgement. he is the last person i would want acting as judge, jury or executioner on matters of life and death.

very interesting thread. i am on the side of superman; we should aim never to kill, unless in self defence. as for atomic skull, why does the answer have to be public execution? what about more effective incarceration, or better still the use of science to depower him?

before we get started, does anyone want to get out?

[–] odshooter22 11 years ago

Anyone who would defend the Atomic skull not being executed after he keeps breaking out of jail and murdering people, needs to re-evaluate themselves. I'm not some sicko that enjoys murder, but protecting innocents outweighs letting this psycho live because of our moral code.

[–] diegoavilarodriguez 11 years ago

1. The point is the following, would you want to give a man as powerful as Superman the authority to kill? Would you want to grant him that liberty? No. I'm not a big Superman fan, but as I've understood from other users, he has killed in times of war and only as a last resort, but not when his enemy can be easily defeated and contained. He lives the judgement and the punishment of criminals to courts and juries. That's the point, even if we want people to be killed, Superman takes it upon himself to be the better person, to stay calm, and not let emotions get in the way. Like the kid whose father had just been killed by Atomic Skull, he was obviously angry and vengeful, so naturally, he'd want Atomic Skull to die.

2. The point of this movie is that Superman is old-fashioned and what that would mean, facing a new more modern and violent world.

3. I think what people fail to point out is, the villainous aspect isn't that he killed the people on the train, its that he concealed it from superman. He didn't give him the full story, wanting Supes to trust him completely. He also killed his father, sure a drunk a-hole, but still.

4. He is selfless. He cares more about others than he does about himself, why is that so hard to understand.

5. DoctorModenMan took the words out of my mind.

6. Extreme yes, but he did need to put on a show. Like Batman in the Dark Knight Returns, shooting criminals with rubber bullets.

I didn't find him hypocritical at all.

[–] JasonRebourne 8 years ago

1. The point is the following, would you want to give a man as powerful as Superman the authority to kill? Would you want to grant him that liberty? No. I'm not a big Superman fan, but as I've understood from other users, he has killed in times of war and only as a last resort, but not when his enemy can be easily defeated and contained. He lives the judgement and the punishment of criminals to courts and juries. That's the point, even if we want people to be killed, Superman takes it upon himself to be the better person, to stay calm, and not let emotions get in the way. Like the kid whose father had just been killed by Atomic Skull, he was obviously angry and vengeful, so naturally, he'd want Atomic Skull to die.

Well, the Elite were doing a better job.

2. The point of this movie is that Superman is old-fashioned and what that would mean, facing a new more modern and violent world.

Well, what that meant was that he was a naive idiot.

3. I think what people fail to point out is, the villainous aspect isn't that he killed the people on the train, its that he concealed it from superman. He didn't give him the full story, wanting Supes to trust him completely. He also killed his father, sure a drunk a-hole, but still.

Well, Superman acts like a douche over killing Atomic Skull. Can you imagine how he'd flip over an accidental death? As for the father, he deserved it.

4. He is selfless. He cares more about others than he does about himself, why is that so hard to understand.

If he really cared, he wouldn't murder those people by letting bad guys live.

[–] diegoavilarodriguez 8 years ago

1. I guess the question here is, which answer is better in the long run? Remember that Superman is a symbol, a moral guide for people. Which is why he chooses not to kill, not because he can't or he's afraid, but because he is here to teach there is a better way and inspire us to better. He is the eternal optimist.

2. Naive for trusting people? Maybe, but I guess that's better than assuming everyone is out for themselves.

3. How did he act like a douche exactly? He simply didn't want Atomic Skull to be excuted in the streets as if this were the wild west or something.

4. I guess this is were we differ. Supes never murders anyone. The criminals do. He cannot and should not be held responsible for the actions of the criminals he faces. These criminals have autonomy and can choose for themselves. They commit the act of murder and no one else.

[–] JasonRebourne 8 years ago

1. Well the thing is the Elite way is better because it gets the job done while all Superman does is prolong the suffering of innocent people.

2. No it isn't.

3. No, he wanted Atomic Skull to kill more people.

4. And Superman allows them to kill when he can stop them. By refusing to kill criminal he becomes an accomplice in the deaths of innocent people.

[–] diegoavilarodriguez 8 years ago

1. "Well the thing is the Elite way is better because it gets the job done while all Superman does is prolong the suffering of innocent people. "

Well this one is debatable. No one dies in comics because, well, that's how comics are. However, more realistically, once the Atomic Skull is in jail, he is not getting out. Seriously, the jail cell has a small power outage and he escapes. Blame Supes all you want, but the fact is, this part is not his doing.

2. "No it isn't."

Well, keep being paranoid dude. Who knows, maybe I'm after you next. (obvious joke)

3. "No, he wanted Atomic Skull to kill more people."

Yes, cause not wanting atomic skull to get killed execution style in the middle of the streets for adults and children to see= Wanting Atomic Skull to kill people. (obvious sarcasm)

4. "And Superman allows them to kill when he can stop them. By refusing to kill criminal he becomes an accomplice in the deaths of innocent people."

Nope. Superman has no knowledge of whether or not a villain would escape, nor what they would do once they got out, hence negating the allegation that he is an "accomplice". This is like blaming a cop for the same thing. In this circumstance, its always the criminal's fault.

[–] JasonRebourne 8 years ago

1. If Superman killed Atomic Skull, he would have not killed any more people.

2. Just being realistic.

3. Glad you admit that.

4. Sups has been doing it for a long time. He should know by now what happens if you don't kill the villain

[–] diegoavilarodriguez 8 years ago

1. And if the jail wasn't faulty he wouldn't have escaped. Not Supes' fault.

2. No, it isn't.

3. You don't know what sarcasm is, do you?

4. This only applies if Supes somehow knows the villain will always escape. Like I said, a cop could be placed in Superman's position. The villain is always at fault, no matter what.

[–] private-651-852710 10 years ago

I'm glad that I am not the only one that feels that way. Beside Superman have killed, so why does he keep saying he haven't kill....

And if not killing is the American way of doing things, why does America order soldier to war and kill....

The only reason they make Superman/Batman not killing is because you can't learn children to kill when you are a good guy in a cartoon.

[–] AmbushBug26 9 years ago

1)Atomic skull murders tons of innocent people, supes locks him away. Only for him to re-escape and kill more people, just as the elite predicted. When Mancjhester kills him, supes seems more perturbed by his murder (cold blooded as it was) than those of the innocents.

So you're saying that it's Superman's fault he keeps breaking out of prison? ...Hurm...Looks to me like it was the prison's fault for not being prepared enough to keep him locked behind bars. Why should Superman dirty his hands, just because the prison system can't keep the criminals locked-up. Superman is not to blame for letting the criminals re-escape to do more harm. The choice is not his to make, and the same goes for anybody else (That includes the elite).

2) Pa Ken pushes the truth Justica and American way thing, which may have been acceptable in the 1940's when America was seen as the defender of the world, but kinda falls flat when alot of the world and some Americans seem kinda disillusioned with it since the 60's.

He's not pushing Truth, Justice, and the American way. He simply says that when people are scared, they often jump towards the person with the easiest plan....even though that plan might not be the RIGHT plan.

3) Black is made to look villainous for killing the people in the train, but lets note it was an accident and his sister as going to be hit by the train. Killing the father was totally jerkish tho.

I'll give you this one. But that just goes to show that once given power...it's hard to not abuse it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

4) The elite SAVED SUPES LIFE and NURSE HIM BACK TO HEALTH!!!!!!!! He shows the least bit of gratitude and is more angry for killing the soldiers who were going to kill him.

That's like saying that just because a serial killer treats you to a nice dinner, that it's okay to just forget that he's a serial killer. The bigger picture here is that Manchester Black and the Elite are doing bad things and masking it like it's a good thing.

5) If he was so concerned about them breaking international law why did he intervene in the conflict anyway??? Sure he saved lives but take a stance and stick to it.

Not quite sure about this one, I'll have to rewatch the film and get back to you on that.

6) For one so concerned about taking lives, injecting Menagerie with a something to stop her from breathing is kinda extreme dontcha think???what if she wasnt recusitated??

That's why he had the robots there to step in and make sure it doesn't come to that as he puts on a show and pretends to be just as bad as the Elite are.

Long story short....killing killers makes you a killer, which may seem fine till another killer of killers decides to kill you for being a killer. It's a vicious cycle, and in a perfect world...should never be the proper course of action.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Save time.....See it my way.

[–] JasonRebourne 8 years ago

I know, Superman actually comes across as worse than the Elite.