MovieChat Forums > Bad Words (2014) Discussion > so...we're all okay now with f-words...

so...we're all okay now with f-words...


...and nudity in front of children, right? I mean, as long as it's funny? As long as get our yuks?

I am absolutely not opposed to crudity, anti-PC humor, the whole nine yards, as long as it's all kept between adults and adult characters where it belongs. Sometimes crude and vulgar can be hysterically funny (although the mere fact of something being crude and vulgar isn't necessarily funny, which a lot of writers and directors seem not to know).

But are we really OK with child actors getting "f@#k" and "sh$%" and various other kinds of profanity hurled at them, or even with having the words in their own lines? Or with an adult woman baring breasts in front of a 10-year-old? This has gotten to be a habit so common as to be both banal and tremendously inappropriate at the same time.

Yes, there are ways you can shoot around it without the child actor actually being exposed to it (although substituting near-profanity and dubbing later is just a cop-out, since the kid "hears" the word he knows is supposed to be there). And I suppose there's a difference between creating the illusion that a younger child is being subjected to this stuff while not actually subjecting the child actor to it, versus having a real person (the child actor) in the middle of it.

But even then, how far can you go with it? Or not "can," but "should"? If you depict an adult woman making sexual advances to an 11-year-old character, is that alright as long as you don't actually make the child actor do it -- if you use various techniques to put it on screen for audience consumption? Point is, either way, isn't there something more than a little bit wrong with using the shock value of children in situations like this to get our entertainment jollies?

And before anybody starts with the "parents were OK with it" argument, that's not an argument that washes. At all. If a parent is OK with a 10-year-old having sex or simulating sex on camera, should we be alright with that? I seriously wonder whether something like baring breasts in front of a 10-year-old for humor and entertainment value isn't illegal under some law. But whether it is or not, have we really gotten to the point where we'll sacrifice anything for another laugh? What is the limit?

And as for the "people freak out about nudity too much" and "films get an R rating for nudity but PG or PG-13 with heads being chopped off," I agree. But the alternative to freaking out about nudity is not to have a child actor staring at the bare breasts of an adult woman who is only a co-worker. If you're OK with nudity in the home and nothing weird is going on, your business. But in the workplace, to be depicted on film and put up on huge screens in front of millions of people? Come on. You know there's a difference.

I mean, am I crazy here? Don't think so.

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The movie isn't advocating or excusing Guy Trilby's actions. He's clearly the example of what not to do or say. He's the product of a bad childhood. This is the consequence of social abuse of children, He's the result of a broken family.
His Dad was never there for him. Similar to the kid's dad neglecting him.

I can see why you feel like the movie is advocating or excusing bad behavior but I really strongly feel like it's a different message.

Kids need friends as much if not more than they need role models. Guy wasn't being a role model, he was being a friend, which is what the kid really needed: A taste of life, a taste of freedom. His Father was so strict and seemed to neglect the kid of any pleasures. What kind of life is that?

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Wow...long thread...I can't read all that crap (read *beep* I'd just like for the op to know kids hear all of that at their schools...thank god. When I see an adult who can't stand to hear the f word or aren't used to seeing a pair of titties...I cringe and just want to say, grow the fck up! And no, it did not bother me at all that the little boy heard those "words" or spoke them.

Ummm...is this person really worried about children looking at a pair of titties? So weird...

Everyday on TV, American kids get to see someone's body parts blown off...but she's worried about tits?

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Of course kids hear all of that at their schools. This is a version of the "if they see it anywhere, they should see it everywhere" argument in which nobody is responsible for anything once the first occurrence happens. It's totally irrational, of course, and even you deconstruct your own argument when you say "Every day on TV, kids get to see someone's body parts blown off." Do you think that's not so good? Why not, if they see it every day? How about graphic dismemberment? You can get DVDs any day of the week, or free clips on the internet. How about graphic pornography? How about violent, abusive pornography? You OK with kids seeing that too? How young, 10? 12? 8?

You really make no sense it all. It's not that this adult can't stand to hear the f-word (I'm not particularly proud of this, but I'm betting not one person on this thread could outcuss me in a fairly-judged contest), and it's not that this adult isn't "used to seeing a pair of titties." The point isn't remotely what this adult consumer of film art is used to seeing or hearing at all.

So here's what it is: It doesn't bother you at all either that the character was depicted saying "f--k" or seeing an adult woman's breasts in a sexualized context, and it doesn't bother you at all that (or if) the young child actor actually was contracted to do those things on set (as opposed to creative editing, etc.). It does bother me. Your articulated standards and rationale are just ridiculously illogical. In the end, it's just that I think it's wrong and you don't. And you think you're more "grown up" because you're OK with kids doing this. I'm perfectly willing to have anybody evaluate your position for what it is.

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This is a version of the "if they see it anywhere, they should see it everywhere" argument


Again, that isn't actually the argument, though... Of course, they shouldn't see it "everywhere"... but because they CAN already see it anywhere, you're making this individual context into a bigger problem than it really is (in my opinion).

My answer is that the degree of gratuity versus age depends on context - whereas you seem to want to apply an absolute standard, which would take the nuance out of media. (in my opinion)





"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

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This is really an argument from degree, which I agree is a legitimate one. It's exactly my point (or one big part of the overall point, anyway) that this is not a matter for absolutism -- that is, that somebody who really hates seeing this sort of thing isn't a Puritan idiot because his sense of morality and judgment runs in that direction. It's really a matter of where your judgment is versus mine. In yours, you don't think it's such a huge problem. In mine, I actually don't think it's all that huge either. I just think it's wrong. Are there things that are far more wrong and far more harmful? Sure.

But also: Where do I say or imply that "the degree of gratuity versus age" does not "depend on context," thus evidencing absolutism?

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... because you use the 'if this is acceptable, what about... ' argument a lot, which seems to indicate that you're looking for a cast iron system of evaluation that works in every case. I just don't think that's possible; I think it's more sensible to judge each situation on its own merit.

People can hate seeing something all they want, but that's very different from saying it shouldn't be permitted - and at the moment, it SHOULD be permitted, because it's legal. I don't feel I get to dictate to other people what's 'wrong', if it isn't my kid, and it's within the law.







"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

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Hard to tell whether you're addressing this specifically to me, but I'll answer anyway, because I think you were:

I'm not saying the film advocates or excuses Guy's actions. And I do agree that that can matter. For instance, I was just watching Lost in Translation again to remind myself of whether it's OK for the teenagers in this house, minus the one scene in the strip club. I'm not comfortable with a 16- and 13-year-old seeing that scene, but if it were less explicit, I'd probably be OK with it thematically, because the point of the scene really is that Bob and Charlotte (Bill Murray and Scarlett Johanssen) are massively uncomfortable with being there, and they can't get out of there fast enough. They're just not the type for a place like that, their relationship isn't the type, and it's part of the characterization in the storyline that they're fish out of water in that place. There's another scene not long after that where [spoiler alert] Bob gets hit on by a lounge singer at the hotel, and -- it appears out of drunkenness and exhaustion, or maybe just tired habit -- he wakes up after having slept with her. There's nothing explicit about it, and the purpose of the scene within the story is not to advocate casual sex with mediocre lounge singers, but again, to contrast with the better nature of both main characters, to convey a sense of real dismay, hurt, and betrayal on Charlotte's part, and (I think, in a more complex way) to put the audience into the character's heads in a real moment of writing genius: If you like Charlotte, you're crushed for her when she finds out, and you're furious with Bob for "cheating" on her even though they don't have a sexual dimension to their relationship in any official way, or rather, they can't have that because of their life situations. And as soon as you feel the hurt for this "cheating," you remember "Hey, Bob has a wife back home. That's who he actually cheated on, officially." So at the same time it gives you this huge sympathy for Charlotte, it also puts you into Bob's head, because part of the point is that Bob is so often distant from his wife (the film makes a point of showing this) that it's almost like a separate life that he semi-forgets about when he's off on actor-and-celebrity business, in the same way the viewer almost forgets about her when the scene with the lounge singer comes up.

[spoiler over]

Anyhow...yeah, it matters what the film is saying about the specific action, not just the fact of depicting it. Sure. And in Bad Words, the surface storyline isn't advocating this kind of bad behavior.

But here's a bit of a caveat: Whether films that depict it and ask people to laugh at it are in fact sort of side-door advocating it is a different question, and a legitimate one. Cf. the "anti-violence" message of something like Natural Born Killers, which purported to be against violence but then depicted the violence in such an explicit and stylized way that many viewers thought all the blood-spatter was awfully cool. Or, look at the way a lot of TV real-life crime "documentary" work is done on shows like NBC's Dateline et al.: Dramatic music laid behind the story of a real-life murder, hip-hop behind a story of rape and murder by a gang, etc. Are they advocating it? They would tell you no, of course. But the way it's depicted seems kind of cool. Feels an awful lot like having it both ways.

And so: Is the film Bad Words advocating the idea that kids should say "f--k" and see bare breasts in a sexual context all the time? They would tell you no, of course. But then, they made a child actor do it, for laughs. So they're actually trying to have it both ways. This kind of thing strikes me as not only wrong in a moral and ethical sense, but really weaselish.

Not that I'm surprised by it. We live in a mass culture where as I'm sitting here writing this, the TV is on behind me, and a booking.com commercial is rattling away with its "right booking now...booking-dot-YEAH" script that might've been written by any smirking 12-year-old in a previous era. ("It's not the actual word, Dad! Stop getting bent out of shape!") And the f-bomb is totally common on TV now all the time; the fact that it's bleeped out means absolutely nothing, because people simply hear it where it obviously is. And the sexualizing of children? Please. It's everywhere.

So I realize that's the culture in which this question comes up. If you look back at the thread -- hell, you only have to go to the last page or two -- you'll see people saying they see absolutely nothing wrong with young kids hearing and saying "f--k" all the time, no problem with 10-year-olds seeing female breasts in a sexual context, etc., because after all, they can get it all on the internet (where, of course, they can find explicit hardcore porn, torture porn, animal killings for fun, etc., so presumably anything they find on the internet is OK to depict them as participating in). It's actually amazing how irrational and self-excusing the population has become, but I'm not exactly surprised by it. For nearly everybody who's objected in that "you're an idiot" way on this thread, their logic instantly vaporizes when you simply apply it to more extreme actions. At some point they all say "Of course you can't depict a child actor involved in bestiality [or whatever]!" (although a couple have been OK with that, because "it's only a movie"), which exposes the actual rationale behind their belief, which is simply that they don't think a 10-year-old kid saying "f--k" or seeing bare adult breasts in a sexual context is all that bad. That is, they try to construct the appearance of rationality around something that actually is just a morally-and-ethically "felt" thing. Their sense of it is that it's not all that bad. Mine is that it is bad. They have no more defense for theirs than I do for mine. It's a moral choice, and it doesn't fall into the realm of "I can prove mine is better."

It's amazing how consistent these irrational pseudoarguments are from case to case, too. I had a similar objection to the scene in Moonrise Kingdom where two underage (and I mean way underage) kids are in their underwear, and the boy puts his hand on the girl's clothed breast in a clearly lingering and sexual way. (Apart from that scene, I really liked the film, btw.) I mean, it really pissed people off that I thought this was wrong. The characters were underage, and so were the actors. "But this happens in real life, you Puritan!", they screamed. Of course it does. So does actual intercourse between 12-year-olds. So does oral sex with 11-year-olds. So does child rape, and coercion, and all kinds of stuff that real life gives us. So we depict that on film, and we use actual underage actors to do it? It's not that I'm saying people can't disagree with whether it was right or wrong to do that scene, although it strikes me as very definitely wrong (and, incidentally, clearly seems to fall within the definition of child pornography in Rhode Island, the state where it was filmed). I'm saying that people get absolutely enraged when you even ask the question at all, as they have here. And they can't seem to get their thinking to run along even semirational lines. They end up defending the proposition that because "it's just a movie" and "it happens in real life," why, depicting explicit sex between underage characters is absolutely fine, even with child actors. And so forth. It's just unbelievable to me.

At any rate...I do think your point is correct, in general, and I'm not saying the storyline in Bad Words directly advocates what it depicts, although I do think it winks at it and tries to have it both ways. I think the contrast comes in this way: Had they only depicted the character as doing these things, and not required the child actor to do them, that would've been a much better choice, ethically, IMHO. One line is crossed in the depiction of the character; a much worse line is crossed in having a child actor actually do those things.


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F-ck off

Its time to play.

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Oh, okay. Just because you say so, I will.

Obviously you're out of steam. Go play somewhere else, or keep reading here and piss yourself off. I really don't care which.

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So, in short, you're just wanting to know if you're crazy. I'd say yes.

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I mean, am I crazy here? Don't think so.
Yes. You're a completely irrational prude, in my opinion.



http://rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies

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The best part of all this is I am once more afforded the chance to tell you to 'get fvcked' again, just like I did over on the 'Moonrise Kingdom' board.

There was a time when someone like you would irritate me quite a lot but given the state of the joint in which we all reside I applaud you for starting a thread with countless stonkingly funny replies to your ridiculous *beep*

Keep up the good work!

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And you keep congratulating yourself for telling people to "get *beep* rather than making any sort of substantive argument for your own opposing view. It is you and people like you who are responsible for the state of this "joint in which we all reside," substituting juvenile insults and high-fiving among yourselves for rational discussion among adults.

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Your self-importance is hysterical emncaity. Do you rant and rave on other sites or just the one concerning films?

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