The White Western Woman


I don't mean to sound controversial (and pardon me if I do), but a friend of mine watched the film and she though that the Erica sounded like a clueless, disrespectful and ignorant woman. That, in combination with the portrait of the white American woman in the Namesake makes me wonder if Mira Nair has quite a stereotypical image of western females, especially those that who get involved with Asian men. I have not seen Amelia (and I imagine many people wouldn't recommend it). Don't get me wrong, I love the way she presents strong Asian women, but when it comes to western women, it feels quite fabricated. Again, don't get me wrong and please present your opinion with civility.

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Reminds me of a girl I knew back in my teens who had a Muslim boyfriend who abandoned her when she got pregnant(with the support of his family). I think a lot of Muslims see Western women as just "girls to have some fun with" and Muslim women as "women to have a serious relationship with later in life".

I've not seen the film but I can see myself potentially having some sympathy with Erica, depending on how the film plays out. People mistake ignorance for immorality too often.

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you are right Matt, that strain of thought definitely exists within muslim communities.

I don't think that's the case for the character in this movie though. the reason why the white women seems 'off' is because westerners are so used to being behind the microscope, doing the examining, that when someone turns it around on to them they are surprised how they end up looking. in other words, this is a different perspective, something westerners don't normally get considering how dominant their media is.

basically, the white women is now the 'token' minority and it's a weird experience for westerners.

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westerners are so used to being behind the microscope, doing the examining, that when someone turns it around on to them they are surprised how they end up looking.

Really? I don't know about "westerners" in general, but Americans have got to be the most self-conscious and self-critical people in the world. I'd say westerners in general are much more this way than Asians.


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Please put some dashes above your sig line so I won't think it's part of your dumb post.

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[deleted]

I have to agree with bron-tay, and as per my experiences with Americans. Their IQ on world affairs may still be pigeon holed but they simply wise up in other matters. And yes, highly self conscious, self critical (sometimes to my utter frustration), and less judgmental people - unlike Asians.

Their image of "being behind the microscope" is so very 80's.

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The fact that you would believe this shows how unself-conscious you are and your general inability to gauge the thoughts and emotions of non-westerners.

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I beg to differ, but many Americans often tend to be very proud and nationalistic, the complete opposite to self-conscious and self-critical. On the other hand, I often see Asians being a lot more critical of their culture/government/society than I do from Americans. And this is reflected in the popular culture of each region. For example, Bollywood and Japanese movies often critically examine their own societies in ways that you often just don't see from most Hollywood movies. And since this movie is about terrorism, that's a topic which Bollywood filmmakers often deal with in a more mature and three-dimensional manner than Hollywood's elementary good vs bad duality.

EDIT:

I believe the point that the person you're replying to was trying to make is that, generally speaking, Westerners (especially white Westerners) just aren't used to seeing things from a different non-Western (or ethnic minority) perspective. On the other hand, non-Westerners are used to consuming English-language American media, and are thus used to seeing themselves from an outside Western perspective. The same is not true for Americans (and even many Europeans), who generally tend to have a very stereotypical view of non-Westerners and/or ethnic minorities. And that's because, generally speaking, they're only used to seeing their media from a mostly Western (again, especially white Western) perspective.


"WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM???!!!!!"

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@Jag85
Two days ago I saw a trailer for a movie entitled DEAR WHITE PEOPLE. I was on www.moviepilot.com where I blog. The threat that appeared beneath the trailer was filled with westerner (simply put, White Americans who felt the title and the dialogue in a 30 sec trailer were racist) Whereas I wanted to chime in and comment,I urged myself to steer clear of this one. Today I came across your post here on this movie THE RELUCTANT FUNDAMENTALIST and wish I could cut and paste it into the other thread. Its is what I would have wanted to caution those who are often annoyed when marginalized perspective try to elucidate a critique on western behavior by adopting it...albeit satirical in DEAR WHITE PEOPLE.

Making A Living Seeing

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"I think a lot of Muslims see Western women as just "girls to have some fun with" and Muslim women as "women to have a serious relationship with later in life"."

That's pretty generalizing. You know one girl whose Muslim boyfriend left her to raise the child alone and you automatically assume most Muslim men are like that?

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I also had another Muslim friend who sympathised with the Muslim family and said that most people in his society would do so "let's face it, she was only with him because white girls find non-white guys hot".

It's not that big a stretch to suggest that a reasonable amount(not neccersarilly most) Muslims have that attitude.

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I just think singling out Muslims is kinda ridiculous. It has nothing to do with Islam, rather the culture.

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it's partly south asian culture but overwhelmingly more it is muslim culture. muslims believe, or are at least taught, that non-muslims are beneath muslims. muslim men have the attitude that they can do unpure things to the women of 'unbelievers' but never to muslim women. no need to sugarcoat and get pc here, it's a fact. not ALL muslims are like this but the strain of thought 100% exists within muslim culture.

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Wow, really? You're just digging yourself into a bigger hole here. Speaking as a Muslim, the whole, "Muslims are taught that non-Muslims are beneath them" is complete and utter crap. That doesn't mean there aren't Muslims out there who believe so, but this kind of mentality exists among all religions. So stop speaking on behalf of more than 1 billion Muslims and nakeing such a massive and disgusting generalization.

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There are no '1 billion Muslims', please stop trying to make yourself big.

Also, the Koran actually states that a Muslim should not be friends with Christian or a Jew because they are conspiring to convert the Muslim to their religion. So yes, Islam is about not trusting people of other religions, whether they are People of The Book or not.

And I agree that Mira Nair seems to have a narrow view of white Western Women. Maybe a boyfriend left her for a white woman and now she is bitter about it?

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You have access to the internet, it's easily available to find out the number of Muslims on this planet, and it actually exceeds 1 billion.

I like to believe that I know my religion a great deal better than others who often rant about Islam and yet have never even opened the Quran.

I'm not even gonna bother arguing with you though since I can't imagine anything useful will come out of it.

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I like to believe that I know my religion a great deal better than others who often rant about Islam and yet have never even opened the Quran.


Well, you're in luck because I actually opened the Koran, and it specifically states that a Muslim should not be friends with a Jew or Christian - in fact, there is an entire section dedicated to it.

The Koran is also a handy manual which tells how a man should beat a woman (hit her hard enough not cause a mark on her skin). It also states that a woman is a man's property and children are his property. It also states that a woman is not a reliable witness in court proceedings and that one man's testimony is equal to four women's testimonies. Also, Islam is anti-adoption - an adopted child will never have equal rights as a man's biological children. So much for a loving and tolerant religion.

If anything, it is you who has not read the Koran.

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When you learn to use the correct spelling of the Qur'an, and not your bastardized English attempt at a translation, then you can lecture on a religion whose reality is far from what you've memorized from your hours and hours of worshiping Faux News.

Say all you want in rebuttal, but you've already proven yourself willfully ignorant, so I won't even bother checking this discussion thread in the future. Feel free to bolster your perception of your own manhood by getting the last word on a subject you know little about.

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How can you have a correct spelling in English for an Arabic word? There is a reason that the "Qur'an" is not supposed to be translated into other languages.

Also the previous poster's summary of comments from the "Qur'an" is not incorrect regardless of his anglicized spelling.

Address his arguments not his grammar.

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Not saying I agree or disagree.

But I love your reply to all comments so far.

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The idea that women are the property of men or that Islam discourages adoption is not consistent with general Islamic beliefs. Try again.

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[deleted]

We don't need "Faux News" (by the way, that little sobriquet is so pathetic and indicative of the typical conservative's closed mind) to tell us about what Americans do or think, we have America to look at... Minorities being persecuted and murdered by mobs of roving Christians and nationalists, missiles fired into Asia and Africa, terrorist attacks around the world, bombings of women, bombings of children, rapes of children... We've seen the dedication to advancement of culture and education and women's rights in the killings of school children, mutilations of girls who are just seeking an education.

Yes, we of the Western World know a great deal about our "Religion of Peace." We know its violent roots, its child-molesting originator, its "convert or die" message, its hatred of coloured people, and its intolerance to any dissent.

You don't need our intellectually dishonest "help," thank you.

Fixed. Both the grammar and factual inaccuracy in this post was so pathetic that someone needed to fix it. You can thank me later.


"WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM???!!!!!"

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I am a Muslim from Pakistan and I accept that Quran mentions this, though in a certain context. Nevertheless, I agree that there are some things in Quran that are ambiguous and need further explanation in the contemporary world. However, let me also clarify that, since I belong to a middle class, neither too religious nor too liberal family, I can speak for that demographic confidently when I say that most of the Muslims do not beat their wives, do not treat them or their children as property, grant equal weight to female testimonies (except in certain cases, I am not sure which courts or why?) and adoption is not a taboo at all.
Now the question still remains, there are these teachings in Islam that do not fit well with today's definition of basic human rights and very little efforts have been made to reconcile them. As a consequence, young people like me find ourselves in a situation not very uncommon to what is portrayed in the novel. We don't know where to go. We use facebook regularly, watch western music, listen to western music, but at the same time, offer prayers, observe fasts and (try to) act righteously as Islam dictates.
As far as the issue of white western woman is concerned, I think more than anything, it is an issue of a Pakistani muslim's fantasy. Since we usually do not get any chance to meet them in real life, the only place we can see them is in western media. Since their lifestyle is so different from what we see in our culture, a sort of fascination begins to develop which is fueled by both curiosity and the bubbling cauldron of hormones when we hit puberty. With no one to guide us through this tricky period, this idea of western women being "promiscuous", for want of a better word develops. With majority of us having no contact with a white woman throughout our lives, this mentality runs rampant throughout our culture. So, my point is, religion is not completely to blame for this problem.

Anyways, just my 2 cents....

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Amazing ignorance here... I like how you ignored her calling you out for your stupidity about how many Muslims in the world there are, as well. Your characterizations of the Koran would also apply to the Bible if one were to examine the Old Testament thoroughly. Your ignorance and disrespect are clear, and it's people like you that fuel the mistrust between the West and Muslims around the world. Get a clue, read a book, stop spreading hateful ignorance.

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The Bible has the same passages. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity share the Old Testament, and worship the same god. Christianity and Islam both started out as offshoots of Judaism.

Look at literalist Christians now, and notice that they have the same worldviews as literalist Muslims. Also xenophobic, misogynistic, etc. Except for polygamy (even though almost everyone in the Bible are polygamous), because Romans abolished polygamy throughout the Roman empire (and they had conquered the levantine region) in keeping with the Roman cultural tradition of strict monogamy. Which is why both Christians and Jews today are monogamous (that wasn't always the case).

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Sadly, even though it is generalising and it isn't most Mulsim/Asian men you do have a point, mate. This is coming from an Asian Muslim and I do see a percentage of the Asian community with this *beep* mentality.

I think that's why most of my friends are White as I hate parts of my culture and some of the backwards mentality some of my people have, sadly. It's not only Muslims though as the other day my Hindu colleague said 'never marry a white girl' (aimed at me as all my gfs including serious gfs have been white or mixed race). My response to that was 'which century are you living in? Get with the times, you get good and bad in every race/religion'

Some people truly are *beep* though. It's sad that people still have these kind of views.

Sorry about the ran ha.

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I'm an Indian male and I'll vouch for the fact that the majority of Asian males are very hypocritical when it comes to their attitudes of women. They like to have pre-marital relationships but they demand their wives be virgins. And they see western women as more promiscuous than women. And when one's religion or culture puts other cultures at a lower rung it gets much worse.
But attitudes ARE changing for the better with younger generations.

Lee...
___________________
Cogito, ergo sum...

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Totally agree. The younger generations of Asians thankfully are a lot better in terms of their thinking.

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I agree with Matt's comment I think race and culture are powerful factors in people's lives. The Namesake was based on a novel by Jhumpa Lahiri but it is true I think the white western women is viewed as someone Muslim or Asian men should not take seriously.

I would feel sympathy for a white woman who gets involved with a Muslim man and she not understanding the issues around his culture, traditions, ect.

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My students in Saudi Arabia would often take trips to Bangkok ("the whorehouse of the Orient"). When questioned about the morality of being all prim and proper in Saudi and being whore-mongers abroad, the answer was, unsurprisingly, "God does not see me in Bangkok." Islam is a religion of exterior behavior, not interior. So "God" does not see me--i.e., my Muslim brothers...outside of my own society, anything goes. There is a PhD thesis from the 1970s about Saudis studying at US universities. The author went to Portland (Portland State) looking for Saudis to interview. He didn't find any until someone told him, "Go to the bars." Then he found all of them. So much for Islamic morality.

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Actually her character is very different in the movie. (and yes, I have read the book and found her a very interesting character).

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there are hypocrites everywhere in all backgrounds or idealogies. You also have to take in to consideration that those Saudis are from a very culturally homogenous, restrictive environment.

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The idea that the omniscient God only sees them in Saudi Arabia is obviously not consistent with Islamic teachings and simply another rationale (one of millions made by men of all religions) for a bunch of horny guys living overseas to indulge their passions. Christians don't even try to rationalize adultery and fornication any more because it has become such a big part of our culture. Talk about hypocrisy.

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You are right, Bangkok is full of Arabs having sex with bar girls. Kuala Lumpur's nightclub district is full of Iranians who want halal food but plenty of booze and dancing.

I am a white, Western woman. The title of this thread implies we are all very similar, but believe it or not, we differ a lot. I have lived in several countries and spent some time India where I was harassed constantly by men when I was alone. I was given to believe that their ideas of western women are formed by TV and porn films so they think if they approach us we will have sex with them behind the nearest tree or rock. For a while I lived near a mosque and the men would come out and just stare at me with hungry eyes and practically dribble.

For a time I was involved with a Pakistani. At first he was nice, and he wanted to get married, at least before he became increasingly unstable and emotionally abusive. Eventually I realised he was involved in forms of low-level criminality, and he stole money from me. Long story, but I told his uncle and he sent the story around the family (who all apparently believed me) and the cash was returned only after my guy's mother rang him and told him to "give the white woman back her money". I think I'm done with Pakistanis, at a certain level their attitudes to women are a bit medieval.

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So, how many western men have left western women because "that girl was just someone to have fun with"?

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I am a Pakistani, my partner is white Australian and we've been together for 9 years, till death do us part!

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Did anyone read the book? Erica is a mentally screwed up woman trying to get over a boyfriend who died. Chavez adores her but she can't commit to him.

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it is absolutely NOT crap. muslims and christians both fundamentally believe they have a monopoly on access to God. all the superiority complexes flow from this erroneous belief.

it doesn't matter whether there are 1 billion or 100 trillion muslims, the teachings are the same. individual muslims can believe what they want, for sure, but when they do they are not acting in acordance with mainstream islam. you'll find millions of muslims who drink, yet that doesn't change the fact that islam forbids drinking.

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Exactly. Well said.

-Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared.-

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Well said. My family is muslim and yes "Muslims are taught that non-Muslims are beneath them" statement is in fact true. I just heard my younger brother's islamic teacher(imam) teaching this stuff to the kids and telling them how in a sense but of course not directly this stuff. I know a lot of muslims will still try to defend their religion which is totally acceptable because everyone thinks their religion is the right one but they have to keep in mind that religious beliefs vary from place to place. Just because you werent taught something doesnt mean its not taught else ware and if thats supposed to be the actual message.

Keep in mind that religion is a complex issue. Even if there was 1 valid proof, then there would be only one religion. But unfortunately this is not the case. Its ambiguous.

IN THE END THERE WILL BE ONLY CHAOS

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[deleted]

Erica sounded like a clueless, disrespectful and ignorant woman, because she was one. Such women exist in every culture - and I'd like to point out that Changez' sister Bina seemed pretty vapid and Westernized too, so it wasn't just western women getting painted that way. It's what American culture wants women to be that's painted that way.

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LMAO @ the bigotry here.

I don't think this attitude is reserved just for South Asians or Muslims, in general. It is attitude that is not uncommon when engaged in an interracial relationship between blacks, whites, asians, you name it. Some go into an interracial relationship for the experimenting reasons, and possibly aware that nothing long term is going to come out of it.

This whole hoopla is just insecure white guys feeling dominated by minority men dating attractive white women. There are plenty of black men, hispanic, and east asian men that likes to roll with white women but don't want to marry with them.

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[deleted]

I am not endorsing the attitude, however, men will be men. Deal with it. Its an attitude found in every culture or subgroup.

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That, in combination with the portrait of the white American woman in the Namesake makes me wonder if Mira Nair has quite a stereotypical image of western females, especially those that who get involved with Asian men.

Yes she does...however both these films were based on books where the male lead has a white American girl. In the Namesake however, there was a future between Gogol and Maxine and it could've worked if Maxine was more clued up. Also Gogol's sister married a white guy and it was accepted by the family, so there was no issues there. For Changez, there would've been problems, like the part he indicated if she would convert - for the kind of person like Erica, Islam would've restricted her and I doubt it would've worked.

I think a lot of Muslims see Western women as just "girls to have some fun with" and Muslim women as "women to have a serious relationship with later in life".

Like alot of men, they want sex. They see western women as more promiscuous, who would be willing to do anything in bed and who can be easily influenced to convert should the issue of marriage arise. However, these same men would beat up or even kill their own sisters if they date men, especially those who are non-muslim. They wouldn't allow muslim women to date non-muslims because they want all muslim women to be virgins when they marry them. This is dispite the fact that the muslim man would most likely have lost his virginity to a non-muslim western woman, the practice of double-standards is pretty much accepted in their communities. I don't know how it would feel for a muslim woman to find out her husband had prior sexual affairs with western momen, when they wern't allowed.

Don't get me wrong, I love the way she presents strong Asian women, but when it comes to western women, it feels quite fabricated.

You know Mira Nair's best films are those dealing with the Indian community. She excels at that - Salaam Bombay, Monsoon Wedding, The Namesake but when it comes to western films like Amelia, Vanity Fair, The Perez Family she isn't as clued up or experienced and just makes a mess. Another Indian-origin female director, Gurinder Chadha has a much better grasp of showing western women in films like "Angus, thongs..." What's cooking, and of course Bend it like Beckham. I think it's because she is British-born and bred (so is a westerner herself), whereas Nair is Indian-born and bred - so Nair is still viewing westerners as an outsider with possible prejudices she may not be aware of.

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Like alot of men, they want sex. They see western women as more promiscuous, who would be willing to do anything in bed and who can be easily influenced to convert should the issue of marriage arise. However, these same men would beat up or even kill their own sisters if they date men, especially those who are non-muslim. They wouldn't allow muslim women to date non-muslims because they want all muslim women to be virgins when they marry them. This is dispite the fact that the muslim man would most likely have lost his virginity to a non-muslim western woman, the practice of double-standards is pretty much accepted in their communities. I don't know how it would feel for a muslim woman to find out her husband had prior sexual affairs with western momen, when they wern't allowed.


Thank you... Plain and simple...

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I am not having people witness my life.It's bad enough that I have to see it.

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It is rather a broader picture than anything else. The fact of the matter is we are brought up to uphold family values and further expect this to translate from our partners. This is contrary to the LARGER American picture where the line of sexes is diminishing. Neither is right or wrong. The New culture promotes women to take up a stand like men, which is good. But in the case of Erica she was doing just that, but he was the, "traditional in an English suit". I have experienced both side of the coin first hand, so what I am saying is right. But we are die hard I will tell you that.

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The fact of the matter is we are brought up to uphold family values and further expect this to translate from our partners.


Then why engage in premarital sex? Do you see the hypocrisy?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?

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Hi
How did you infer premaritial sex and hypocrisy from my comment? But it is ok will still answer your question.

/Following, I will speak in larger terms as before.
This time however, I will not be as neutral as before and will pick a side/
I said before,"The line between the sexes is diminshing". So on that account, If a western women can have multiple dates in the year of 2014 alone, Who is an Asian to change that and how does he become a prey to the naive white women?
Now why do browns not refrain from following these onenightstands, sex is a powerful tool? Speaking of one nightstanders, Does this word mean when one brown man will sleep with a whitewomen the word will be called a one night? Also, does the white women sleeps with the brown man or the brown man sleeps with the white women?
This incident is relevent but not meant for general use. About a month ago, at the curbs of the treadmills stood two girls who seemed to have finished thier run and were chatting with a quick drink. Unfortunately on that day my music battery died and the music I heard was something. One said to another,"It is not that cortez is better, it is good in a different way".
So what is hypocrisy what is not I don't know?
But I would use the terms variable charachteristics, experimental, physical.

Sorry used my phone so
my have lots of grammers

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Have you seen how Muslims treat the women? You have to be a moron to get involved with a Muslim.





- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

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