So they're trying to escape an apartment complex surrounded by gun toting gang members, they kill one and don't pick up his ak?! They have semi-auto pistols and they don't take the assault rifle? May have come in handy for the gun battle in the alley. Liked the movie a lot but this bothered me a little.
shareNo, I think they did the right thing.
The film never says they needed more ammo or that they were low on ammo. So for argument's sake I'll assume they had enough ammo & they were waiting for back up (which was to arrive very soon, since in an earlier seen back up arrived really fast as well). So if you have ammo, and you spot an AK-47 on the floor, you won't take it because your equipped weapon is the one you were trained to use & master. This wasn't a warzone, so there was no need for them to take extra water with them, carry an AK-47 on the side, and all that other stuff that would get in the way. When they shoot the gangster in the car, they do it fast & efficient with their equipped weapon.
Taylor didn't pick it up because he only had one hand. He was shot in the other hand,remember?
Mike was in shellshock and Taylor was having to talk him through everything.
Mainly how to get out of there.
eldo77
Co-sign. Toting around an assault rifle would slow down their escape. They wouldn't have been any better off by taking the AK. They'd be better off if the other units would have arrived faster.
shareI thought the same thing about picking it up. It's a very difficult situation to assess. I agree with most of the posters on here that they were probably better off with their glocks. The AK would have been great if they hunkered down and needed suppressing fire - but those guys were semi-panicked at that point.
With that said, I did wonder why they didn't jump in the car after they blasted the second thug. The guy had a shotgun and a vehicle for a quick escape.
LOL. That's like saying toting around ropes and pitons would slow you down if you're trying to escape a snow leopard by repelling down a cliff face.
Really?! You've just been fired on by a gang of thugs using ARs and you wouldn't arm up if you had the chance? You'd stick with your pistol?!
[deleted]
Yup. Bothered me, too. Two reasons:
First, you are being attacked by people with machine guns. Makes sense to have similar firepower.
Second, ammo. They were not expecting a shoot-out so they probably weren't carrying that much ammo for their pistols. So why not pick up the AK that still has some ammo so you can use it if and when you run out of pistol ammo. Any gun that you have ammo for, even if you are unskilled in it's use, is better than an empty gun.
More importantly, they shot a guy in the car, why didnt they just take the car to escape??
shareMore importantly, they shot a guy in the car, why didnt they just take the car to escape??That hit me too. But, they were under the impression back up would be there right away. And it was right away, just seconds too late. So they were just looking to survive the deal at hand. Not take on 20 bad guys themselves in a glorious "Escape from New York" scene. Needing cars and guns would not have been realistic. Handy, sure. But they were armed.
He could'v picked up the AK-47, Brain was in the army before being a cop. I'm sure he knows how to fire an AK-47, which are one of the easyest rifles to fire.
But keep in mind this took place in an alley surrounded by appartments... as a cop I don't think it's a wise decision to fire an AK in a place like that. As a cop you know you could be in a dangerious situation like that, in order to protect people, not to put them into more danger by spraying an ak47 which could penetrate trough walls of the surrounding appartments.
All of you guys with the big WHYs. Just ask yourself, how many times have you found yourself in your life repeating that same question in your head. "Why did i do it that way, why didn't i choose the other way, why why why"
There could be tonnes of logical explanations, but what if they just made a mistake? It really adds to the realism. You are in a life and death situation, you don't think, just run.
I would have ripped the stuffing out the couch and hid inside the cushions like a hamster!
sharejake was a soldier and either way they coulda used it for suppressive fire
_______
"if seagal was thinner this could have been a theatrical product."
What I think in many of these situations in movies where they just keep running from a certain bad guy or group of bad guys, is why don't they just hide somewhere? There were so many hiding spots in that place. I would'v been hiding for a whole day if it would be needed.
shareIt did bother me that neither of them stopped to pick up the guns, but what bothered me more was after they shot the guy in the truck why didn't they just get in and drive to safety? And after Jake was shot Michael could have dragged him to the truck or somewhere safer than the middle of the alley.
Overall it was a good film but it depresses me when the good guys get killed.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Morgana0x
I noticed this, the guy was supposed to have been a marine before he was a cop. He had a shot up hand but his buddy shouldn't have struggled with it. Gotta assume in that situation you'd run out of ammo at some stage regardless.
They are terribly inaccurate weapons though, but I'd like it for some cover fire.
I love this thread, it's a mash of people who know nothing about guns who like to portray that they do, and people with common sense.
If there's a load of guys shooting at you, and theres an AK available, you do not do the following:
1) Worry about whether your trained to use that weapon or not.
2) Leave it there.
3) Mock the weapon for its inaccuracy when you have a Glock in your hand.
4) Think its broken
5) Compare it to other weapons in a "well i wish it was a..." sense.
6) ...
The list could go on forever to be honest, if you were there, you would pick it up, unload it into a wall or whatever, but the point is it would buy you a lot of time.
AMEN!
shareNo one likes a hypocrite. Let me just correct some of your misconceptions and explain to you what an educated person would NOT do in that situation:
1) Pick up a weapon you find on a dead gangbanger when it could be a) broken, b) faulty or c) out of ammo
2) Replace a weapon you know is in good working order and have experience firing, especially not in a urban shoot out (there's a reason cops carry handguns in the first place)
3) Pick up a weapon which anybody with half a brain cell knows can easily penetrate walls and spray bullets over a pretty diverse area when your primary occupational objective is to protect innocent lives
4) Pick up a weapon which is intended to be used with two hands when you only have one functioning one (since Pena was in shell shock, lets just take him out of the equation)
5) Decide to use a weapon which, particularly if you have been in the Marines, you know is notorious for being inaccurate (inaccuracy applies to recoil, not just bullet trajectory), ESPECIALLY when four people have just used them to shoot at you and not killed you
6) Pick up a two handed, long barreled weapon when you know you're going to be navigating tight corners and likely scrambling over walls/through tight spaces where a pistol is perfectly capable (fighting in the environment and conditions these guys were in, the only thing that's going to save you is reaction time and movement - they didn't know they'd end up in a long alley)
7) Stop running to consider the pros and cons of the weapon you just used to put someone down
Good post henry-connors. I'm sick of people on this board whining about how they didn't pick up the AK.
1. Like you said they (probably Mike) didn't have the training to use an AK (Brian possibly with the Marines) but try use it with a shot up right hand!
2. Who knows how many rounds were left in the AK magazine? It could have been 2 bullets FFS. A least with their Glocks they knew how many rounds and magazines they had left.
3. They were involved in CQB (Close Quarters Combat or Battle) weaving in and out of an apartment complex. A sidearm is a lot more easier to maneuver around than an AK47 which is roughly 880 mm (35 in). Plus the Glocks had another handy feature of having a Tactical Light.
4. A pistol in this instance is quicker to pull up and acquire your iron sights then get off a quick accurate shot than pulling up an AK and then trying line up a accurate shot in which you need BOTH hands. Rather than just spraying and praying which the gangbangers were doing.
Any other questions?
If you're not willing to give up everything, you've already lost
Disagree, bubble. Here's why:
1) The AK is very simple to employ. If you are familiar with the AR series of rifles (as any former Marine would be), you could figure out an AK in five seconds, even if you had never held one before. It is likely that - as a "modern" Marine, the character would have had familiarization training with the AK. He may not be an "expert" with it, but he almost certainly could have put it into operation. Also, it can be operated with one hand, though certainly not as effectively.
2) So, it COULD have had two rounds in it. It COULD have had 30. The advantages of an AK over a pistol are so massive that it's worth the gamble. At worst, you get a few shots off with the much, much superior weapon, and then transition back to your sidearm.
3) This is incorrect. When the SWAT team shows up, what are they armed with? Rifles. Are they performing a different CQB than everyone else? No. The fact is that ALL units who do CQB for a living use rifles as their primary weapons, and pistols as SECONDARY weapons. Anyone who knows anything about this would always take a rifle over a pistol, period. As to the light: It would have been handy, sure. Fortunately, mounted lights can be DIS-mounted, and used as a normal flashlight. This is assuming that he didn't have a normal flashlight on hand, which is a BIG assumption, because a hand held light is standard gear for every patrol officer in the world.
4) Again, this is incorrect. A rifle carried in a good "high ready" is just as fast, if not faster, than a pistol. And the normal firing stance taught in all police academies uses two hands, so he's going to be out of his "comfort zone" in any case. Again, it simply boils down to the fact that the rifle is simply SO much better than the pistol, that any negatives are far outweighed by the positives...
So, we can see that - in a perfect world - picking up the AK is absolutely the "right" thing to do. Is it a "flaw" in the movie? No, not necessarily. People do the "wrong" thing all the time, every day, under all sorts of circumstances. Expecting this character to do the "right" thing while under incredible duress is what is truly unrealistic.
Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.
1) The AK is very simple to employ. If you are familiar with the AR series of rifles (as any former Marine would be), you could figure out an AK in five seconds, even if you had never held one before. It is likely that - as a "modern" Marine, the character would have had familiarization training with the AK. He may not be an "expert" with it, but he almost certainly could have put it into operation. Also, it can be operated with one hand, though certainly not as effectively.
So, it COULD have had two rounds in it. It COULD have had 30. The advantages of an AK over a pistol are so massive that it's worth the gamble. At worst, you get a few shots off with the much, much superior weapon, and then transition back to your sidearm.
This is incorrect. When the SWAT team shows up, what are they armed with? Rifles. Are they performing a different CQB than everyone else? No. The fact is that ALL units who do CQB for a living use rifles as their primary weapons, and pistols as SECONDARY weapons. Anyone who knows anything about this would always take a rifle over a pistol, period. As to the light: It would have been handy, sure. Fortunately, mounted lights can be DIS-mounted, and used as a normal flashlight. This is assuming that he didn't have a normal flashlight on hand, which is a BIG assumption, because a hand held light is standard gear for every patrol officer in the world.
4) Again, this is incorrect. A rifle carried in a good "high ready" is just as fast, if not faster, than a pistol. And the normal firing stance taught in all police academies uses two hands, so he's going to be out of his "comfort zone" in any case. Again, it simply boils down to the fact that the rifle is simply SO much better than the pistol, that any negatives are far outweighed by the positives...
An AK certainly can be fired with one hand but not accurately. Jake's character had been shot though the left hand so would have needed it hold up the rifle steadily while using the iron sights. We the audience didn't know if he still had 100% function in his left hand to hold steady for accurate shots.
Coming from a solider's POV then of course you would pick up a superior weapon but would the LAPD Academy train/tell boots to pick up weapons off a guy they have just shot dead and switch to that in a firefight instead of their sidearm with 3 spare magazines that they have been trained with?
I agree slightly but look at this raid done by the Australian Federal Police just using just their sidearms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwsM9AO1Zb8 so forgive me as I have seen raids just with sidearms depending on the suspect threat level.
In the US however SWAT teams are now turning up with some "really little" rifles now like the Mk 18 with a barrel of just 10.3 inches. Having the tactical light on the sidearm is an advantage as he would have had a firmer weaver grip with both hands and stay on target more easily after a round was fired wouldn't you say?
First off Rodney I led you astray a bit in that our SWAT teams just rock up and just use their Glocks for a raid which is completely incorrect. Actually the "Tactical Operations Unit" of each State have all the equipment and tactics that the LAPD SWAT use, even some Police Officers from Australia do exchange programs LAPD SWAT. The TOU turn up to the scene armed to teeth with M4s personally tricked out and other weapons like the MP5 and H&K UMPs.
We also have armoured Chevrolet vans and two Lenco BearCat armoured Ford F550s. The reason I posted the AFP doing a raid just with their Glocks was to just prove that it can be done however like I said the intelligence on that house must have been a low risk otherwise they would have sent in the TOU. Here is an example of them in action even if it's long to load:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CXG2xSrrBo
Today, the "patrol rifle" has taken over for the shotgun in many - if not most - police cars. The reason for this is simple - the rifle is better in ever way than the pistol when you are in a gun fight
I agree with everything except point (5.). The AK is not inaccurate, it is minute of man accurate out to 300 yards, probably more.
It get a bad rap because the people using it don't know how to shoot a gun and don't maintain their gun.
As for them not getting killed, it's a movie. Plus, who dumps a full mag on full auto when they are actually trying to hit something?
[deleted]
Perhaps the first coherent and reasonable response of any length I've read so far was by Andy-Wheale. Most other comments are simple opinion- not based on fact or experience, and are totally and utterly off-base.
I don't think I have read anybody state that they have been in a firefight, and that is what is most required to make an experienced comment about this or similar situations.
To that end- not only have I been in firefights, with rounds going both ways- but I have trained operators. I might have only played 1 hour worth of FPS games in my entire life- whereas last week I fired about 1,500 rounds of all flavors, from .22LR up to .50BMG. Also, I have no idea what LAPD procedure is, so I am not commenting on that at all- so don't bother flaming me.
My comments. Yes I know it's a movie, but that is not what is being discussed here either. Proper tactics in an urban gun battle such as this one is the issue.
My actual main problem was communications. How did they both lose their radios? I saw one take a round, but both? And to not have a working cell phone is asking for it. Why leave it on the visor? Because the script told them to. I know guys that wouldn't step into the street without 3 guns- one on their hip, their backup and a .22 mag in a shirt pocket, and their primary radio, cell phone, and some even had a tiny candy-bar phone in their boot. Commo is king. One of the main problems was that they were chased all over the place, and backup had a tough time finding them.
Situation:
1) Both officers were experienced and well-trained. (Yes- except for watching their 6's, for example - point given. It is a movie. I don't know of a ***single movie*** where they did everything right. Anybody?) For that matter I don't know a single experience where everybody acted perfectly correctly either.
Both had been in gun battles before and didn't piss themselves. Both had excellent situational awareness and shown a knowledge of tactical and strategic movement. They kept their stuff pretty wired tight almost all the way through.
2) Typical street load for cops is only 3 or 4 spare magazines- and they burned through a hell of a lot of ammo. I'd bet they were on their last mag or so. NOT good.
3) They were certainly getting VERY low.
4) It was obvious that backup was not coming quickly enough.
Therefore:
1) Pick up the fricking AK. And some magazines. Even Taylor while injured. There are positions that you're trained for- both pistol and long arm- with an injured off hand. No problem there. You need to lay down accurate and heavy fire in this situation. And you're probably running out of ammo. Bad.
2) Length and weight mean nothing in this situation. It is called an assault weapon for this reason. Troops use them (preferably) instead of pistols when they assault things- or fight off multiple opponents. The only drawback is having a barrel for an opponent to grab. Separate issue, easily dealt with.
Anyway, this is the least of their worries. *****Being outgunned is their problem.*****
3) It's nearly impossible for an AK NOT to work. Dropping them would do squat. I've dug out AK's that were buried for 20 years and they still fired. The last thing I would be worrying about is it blowing up- or the sights being a bit off. Please. Batman would show up before that happened. Anybody that talks like that has obviously never experienced any kind of armed combat- or shot an AK for that matter.
4) Holster your sidearms. Maybe one of them might keep their pistol out as it's guaranteed to go bang- for those who wouldn't trust a pick-up weapon. They were facing a literal army armed with assault rifles. Why not even try to even the playing field? All this crap about "ooh, don't move the evidence" is crap too. Their first job is to make it home alive at the end of the shift. That means stealing cars, breaking into empty stores, anything that does not recklessly endanger the public- even if it is furthering their own risk. So entering the apartment is problematical for me- but that is a procedural or doctrinal question not being addressed here.
5) Continue with Harries grip (flashlights) to properly illuminate the target(s).
6) ANY shot that had to be made could be made BETTER with any AK than their sidearm. Heavy breathing, injury, muscle tremor and fatigue would make a fine sight picture almost impossible. The longer sight radius of the assault rifle- even the AK - (and stability with a butt-stock) would make a 3-point weld firing position light-years more stable- and therefore MUCH more accurate. Any time I see a crook with a folded stock I laugh. Nearly useless. That's for storage- inside tanks or while parachuting. And don't even start about a stopping power or over-penetration. Both are an issue- with either caliber. "Know your backstop" is a primary rule in every case. You might even find yourself in a spot where a pistol would not reach the bad guys- like behind a car door or some windshields. Plus it's reasonable to assume the punks were wearing body armor. You would be much more accurate with the AK if missing was the issue anyway. A piece of crap AK could keep to within 4-6 inches at 100 yards, and their pistols- not even close under those circumstances.
7) It was obvious that backup was taking longer than they reasonably had left. They were almost spent. Any advantage would have helped. I would have picked up those AK's in a heartbeat. EVERY TIME. Gang-bangers may be used to busting caps at their adversaries, but they are NOT used to precision return rifle fire from a well-trained pair of officers with (partially faulty) tactical training. That certainly would have slowed the bad guys down too.
8) I probably would have driven out of the kill box myself- given the circumstances and the chance. They had moved several times and kept taking fire everywhere they went. Time to didi. Plus you're sitting in a 3,000 pound battering ram - if needed.
Just off the top of my head.
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
Not sure if this has been mentioned but...
Pena was in shock and not in any state to think straight (hence Jake G basically dragging him out and giving all commands).
Jake G had been shot in the hand! I'm no expert but i'm assuming using a assault rifle with one hand is very very ineffective.
So i reckon they made the right choice.
Also can i say the back up did take a while but also they had run away from the apartment building so it's save to assume the back up went there first then found them, when it was a bit late.
The real problem was not taking the car the gang member (with the shotgun) was in and high tailing it out of there. That's the part that annoyed me.
Do street cops train with AKs? Definitely not. Maybe SWAT, but not street cops.
Do Marines train with AKs? Probably not. If so, at maximum 30 rounds shooting paper at a range.
There are many other reasons why any sensible person would not pick up a random weapon found on the ground. Just ask yourself, would you trust your life to the weapon you have carried and fired for many years, or a weapon of questionable origin you just picked up on the ground? It could blow up in your hands the first round fired.
The best weapon is the one you've trained to use. People saying "guns are easy to use" have obviously never fired a gun: try picking up a never before seen 7.62 AK and hitting what you're aiming at, while moving, while under pressure, even if the target is 10 yards away. It's not easy by ANY stretch of the imagination. It takes TONS of practice. Doubly so because they are cops, and they don't want to hit anything they're not aiming at.
Not to mention 7.62 FMJ will fly through several layers of drywall before coming to a stop.