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Lets look at the American atrocities on Japan


In 1946, the Manhattan Engineer District published a study that concluded that 66,000 people were killed at Hiroshima out of a population of 255,000.
The Committee for the Compilation of Materials on Damage Caused by the Atomic Bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki estimated in 1978 that 346,000-356,000 people were present in Hiroshima at the time of the bombings, with fatalities of "some 200,000".
Casualty estimates for immediate deaths in Hiroshima range from 40,000 to 75,000. Total deaths by the end of 1945 may have reached 80,000.

Japan on the other hand, Pearl Harbor: The assault, which lasted less than two hours, claimed the lives of more than 2,500 people. WTF

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http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/

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Reading this well balanced discussion is much more productive than any debate we could have on here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hirosh ima_and_Nagasaki

The Nagasaki bomb and the Soviet invasion were simultaneous, and it's impossible to say for sure whether either or both prompted the surrender, it all comes down to opinions.

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It's a fact not opinion Tojo surrendered after Nagasaki. Not opinion

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"Apologist, thy name is scum"

The Japanese were in the process of negotating, Truman's bombs were inhuman and a cowardly act. Tojo give the light that he was going to sign the treaty. You're talking pure nonsense.

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Tojo wasn't even prime minister of Japan after July of 1944. You're either ignorant or lying. Either way you have no business calling anyone else scum.

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"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind"

The Japanese started the war with an inhuman and cowardly act by attacking Pearl Harbour. They have no cause for complaint.

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Except for the fact that Americans were already consolidating forces into Pearl Harbor in preparation to attack Japan. And at the time it was the only choice, to attack first.

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Pearl Harbor was bad....but then there were the atrocities committed against Chinese civilians - the Rape of Nanking - the horrible treatment of POWs, who died under the Japanese in far greater numbers than they did under the Nazis. Unbroken is based on a true story, and it is borne out by witnesses on both sides...Japanese and Allied.

The Japanese killed civilians by the thousands, abused and killed POWs, and subjected their own people to harm by essentially telling them to fight to the death. They didn't kill to end a war they didn't start. They killed to conquer, even when they didn't have to.

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Well if only you had been at ground zero of either city the world would have been a better place! No matter you'll just get your head cut off by your buddies in the "religion of peace" or thrown off a building because that's what they do to homosexuals like yourself. Better return that prayer rug you won't be needing it after all lol

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Yes, the Japanese were attempting to negotiate an armistice, not an unconditional surrender on their terms. They wanted no Allied occupation of Japan, they wanted no Allied War Crimes Tribunals (they said that they'd take of it themselves, yeah right), they wanted to maintain their military (what was left of it) to prevent Allied landings later, and they wanted to maintain the Emperor on the throne as he was - a living god. Japanese diplomats secretly tried to submit their terms to the Soviets (still neutral in the PTO at the time)who were secretly building up their forces in the Far East to invade Manchuria to honor their word to the Western Allies at the Potsdam Agreement. The Japanese were offered to surrender unconditionally, but they thought they could get away with what they had. So Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed, and the Soviet Union invaded Manchuria, Sakhalin Island and the Kurile Island groups. They rolled the dice and crapped out.

"check the imdb cast list before asking who portrayed who in movies please"

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Makes me smile.

If you were in that camp, you would be the first screaming "more nukes!" Sorry, but this is how it would go. So please do not try to be the right one since it looks ridiculous.

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Well said

Don't forget the Japanese moved into Hiroshima thousands of children into this military target as a deterrent to the USA bombing it

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YOU should do your research.

大日本帝国 was at that time a totalitarian empire. In the movie, -MIYAVI- character (Watanabe) wrongly refer to the empire as "Japan". He should have said "The Empire of Japan". It was usually refered as 帝国 (teikoku, empire) in Japan at that time during the Showa jidai, as the elders refer to that period.

And why this Matthew C. Perry person irrupt on Japan during the Tokugawa bakufu? I say capitalism and greed.

All that you wrote about women and children fanatics of Shodadenko Hirohito is false, the people of Japan wanted the war to end.
And you should be ashamed of saying that the atomics bombs were justified. People full of hatred against other cultures they don't know and don't understand is the most dangerous.

Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language.

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The bottom line, and yes, there is one, had Japan not attacked Pearl Harbor, the bombs would not have been dropped.

End of story.

Quit ya moanin

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[deleted]

Read my post again, I think you are replying to another comment and not mine.


Quit ya moanin

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Do some Googling of Japan's Unit 731 during the war - involving Human Experimentation and other atrocities...

Some of the worst atrocities ever committed during any war in history...

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Thank you!! Another person with a brain

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Instead of googling you should try some documentaries.
Those horrible atrocities committed to other human beings in Manchuria, makes me sick, but you know what? It makes me even sicker that USA government gave all those criminals immunity as long as they gave them (give to USA) all the data collected in the 731 Butai.
USA did not allow Russia to prosecute those criminals, because they wanted the data. SICK!

Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language.

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So you agree the Japanese committed inhuman acts of barbarism

I give credit to Japan for turning it around post war and becoming part of the civilized world

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Of course! What happened in 731 butai is inhuman, Ishii Shiro was a monster.
Terrible things happened during the Nisshinsensou and Nitchusensou (the first and second sino-japanese wars), in those times that the elders refers at the Meiji and Showa (Showa being the worst involving Nitchusensou and WWII).
I know what happened because I was born abroad (Chile). Unfortunatelly, I was born in a very violent country, under military dictatorship. Life is not fair, isn't it?

Most peoples have commited atrocities and acts of barbarism, I have seen it with my own eyes in Latinamerica, countrymen against each other, USA against Latinamerica, and I know history. Stalin was a vicious criminal, just like Mussolini, Franco, Hitler and Pol Pot. There's no "good color", there's bad people on every side, and there's good people on every side too.

I would never forgive the barbarian minds who planned the atomic bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Thousands of innocent people were murdered. That is incredible evil.

Don't forget the Japanese moved into Hiroshima thousands of children into this military target as a deterrent to the USA bombing it


That statement is wrong, I must say.
I don't know where you come from (and that really don't care, we are all humans!), but I wish USA goverment and the ones in control there, would become civilized people, as most of their citizens.

Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language.

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I would never forgive the barbarian minds who planned the atomic bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.


Then I guess we shouldn't forgive the barbarian Japanese for Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, the Rape of Nanking, the more than 10 million Chinese the Japanese killed from 1937 to 1945...

There were many hard choices made to end World War II. Some of them we now know to be unnecessary (although the claims that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings count in that category are shaky at best). But I have no respect for judgmental armchair apologists who condemn retroactively without any grasp of the times or of war itself. You weren't there, so don't pretend you know what you would have done differently.

The bombs were dropped, the war ended, Japan was rebuilt. All we can do is learn and grow so we can make sure it doesn't happen again.

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Then I guess we shouldn't forgive the barbarian Japanese for Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, the Rape of Nanking, the more than 10 million Chinese the Japanese killed from 1937 to 1945...


You are generalizing. I don't.
I am very ashamed of the atrocities committed by the rulers of Japan through centuries. I would not forgive, ever, people like Ishii Shiro nor evil Konoe Fumimaro. Those are evil masterminds. You cannot blame all japanese, as we cannot blame all USA citizens of that time.

But I have no respect for judgmental armchair apologists who condemn retroactively without any grasp of the times or of war itself. You weren't there, so don't pretend you know what you would have done differently.


Of course I wasn't there. Neither of my parents have been born yet. But my grandparents were alive. I haven't experienced war, and I really hope I never do, but I know how it's like to grow-up and live under a brutal military dictatorship. I'm not like USA young citizens.
If you don't respect me and think that I am that way, that's up to you, I'm not gonna change your mind. But I do know what I am talking about. Because I've seen my grandfather face (now he's gone), and I've seen my own parents face (who suffered from a different kind of cruel regime, that I actually remember).


But as I said before, not forgive and not forget. As you say well, we must learn and make sure it doesn't happen again, never, in any part of this planet.

Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

MacArthur struck a deal with Japanese informants—he secretly granted immunity to the physicians of Unit 731, including their leader, in exchange for providing America, but not the other wartime allies, with their research on biological warfare and data from human experimentation.

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I was just about to post this, albeit months after you did! Well done! OP also ought to Google the "Rape of Nanking" or the "Bataan Death March" if he feels the Americans committed more atrocities than the Japanese. Or just Google "Japanese Atrocities WWII".

For the record, I make no judgment on Nagasaki or Hiroshima. History has done that. I think all of it was tragic.

You know, when I was in the military stationed in Korea years ago I saw a T-shirt stand with a particularly acerbic depiction. The art on the shirt had a map of the Japanese Islands with two atomic bomb mushroom clouds emanating from Nagasaki and Hiroshima on the map. The words to accompany the art were "If you don't want to get nuked, don't start a fu^king war!"

Koreans hated the Japanese for all the atrocities the Japanese had put them through for centuries. Guess they made their own judgment...

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[deleted]

I was actually stationed at Kadena AB from 1985 - 1988 flying Phantoms but we spent two weeks of every six deployed up in Osan. Loved that place! Since I was in Okinawa as a permanent duty station I don't think I qualify for the KDSM. But thanks for the heads up!

"Accept loss forever." – Jack Kerouac

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You're right, let's start pointing fingers. "the answer to life the universe and everything"??

or maybe 42..

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According to other research it wasn't the bombs that ended the war. Japan was already in the process of surrendering when the bombs were dropped, which begs the question of why would America drop bombs on a country that they were no longer at war with? Seems inhuman to me.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/

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could PAPA STALIN be a reason?

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The very article you cite states categorically that Japan was NOT "already in the process of surrendering" when the bombs were dropped, simply that they were holding out for Russian negotiations that would end the war on terms that would still be favorable to them. Simple insanity, that a nation losing a war so utterly would think they could negotiate a favorable end to the war they were losing. But it was obviously clear that without those favorable conditions Japan would not surrender. It was not so much that Russia declared war on them, but that the Russians proved they would not mediate any favorable end to the war, that was the straw that broke the camel's back of delusion that the Japanese leadership still clung to. And even then, it is well documented that many in the Japanese leadership still wanted to continue the war, willing to die (and take many millions of Japanese with them) for their twisted beliefs.

And what the article fails to take note of is that the Russians declared war on Japan AFTER the Hiroshima bomb. Why? They could have declared war several months earlier; after all, the war with Germany had ended in May of 1945. In fact, the Russians had already agreed at the Yalta Conference in February of 1945 to enter the war against Japan after Germany had surrendered. Why did they wait? The article states that until Russia declared war days after the bomb, Japan STILL thought they were neutral and a possible asset to Japanese desires to end the war on their own terms. Why didn't the Russians tell the Japanese earlier that their (secret) negotiations were pointless?

The premise that atomic bombs alone did not end the war is interesting, but full of hindsight and not conclusive. No one in 1945 KNEW any such thing; all they knew is that they had to do whatever they could do to end the war as quickly as possible. Even the article states that the Japanese knew an Allied invasion of Japan would be an unparalleled bloodbath - hell, they were COUNTING on it. The article states also that the Japanese had very little concern for civilian Japanese casualties, and the Battle of Okinawa had already proved that. It is a fact that the firebombing of Tokyo killed more Japanese civilians than the Hiroshima or Nagasaki bombs. But some of you simply don't seem to grasp that World War II was the first war in history where strategic bombing occurred, and it had not yet been proved that the bombings would not convince militaristic minds of the futility of their war and get them to surrender. Rational minds thought that it would.

War is a tragedy by definition. But for people to sit back in their comfortable chairs 70 years later and judge the morality of the hard decisions those who sought to end a war had to make is, in pure terms, contemptible.

Pearl Harbor started a war. The Hiroshima Bomb was an attempt to end it. If you can't grasp the difference in morality between the two on that basis, you are hopeless.

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http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/yalta.asp

AGREEMENT REGARDING JAPAN

The leaders of the three great powers - the Soviet Union, the United States of America and Great Britain - have agreed that in two or three months after Germany has surrendered and the war in Europe is terminated, the Soviet Union shall enter into war against Japan on the side of the Allies* on condition that:

1. The status quo in Outer Mongolia (the Mongolian People's Republic) shall be preserved.
2. The former rights of Russia violated by the treacherous attack of Japan in 1904 shall be restored, viz.:

(a) The southern part of Sakhalin as well as the islands adjacent to it shall be returned to the Soviet Union;
(b) The commercial port of Dairen shall be internationalized, the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet Union in this port being safeguarded, and the lease of Port Arthur as a naval base of the U.S.S.R. restored;
(c) The Chinese-Eastern Railroad and the South Manchurian Railroad, which provide an outlet to Dairen, shall be jointly operated by the establishment of a joint Soviet-Chinese company, it being understood that the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet Union shall be safeguarded and that China shall retain sovereignty in Manchuria;

3. The Kurile Islands shall be handed over to the Soviet Union.

It is understood that the agreement concerning Outer Mongolia and the ports and railroads referred to above will require concurrence of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. The President will take measures in order to maintain this concurrence on advice from Marshal Stalin.

The heads of the three great powers have agreed that these claims of the Soviet Union shall be unquestionably fulfilled after Japan has been defeated.

For its part, the Soviet Union expresses it readiness to conclude with the National Government of China a pact of friendship and alliance between the U.S.S.R. and China in order to render assistance to China with its armed forces for the purpose of liberating China from the Japanese yoke.

* my bolding

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

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Thanks, Squeeth. Although "two or three months" is such an oddly vague phrase in the midst of such a specific document. But that begs the question even more, why did Russia continue to let Japan think it was a neutral country in the war against Japan and an option of a negotiated settlement up to the day AFTER the Hiroshima Bomb was dropped?

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I was surprised too, I thought the agreement was "within three months". Since the A bombs were a US decision, I doubt that much can be inferred about Russian decisions which coincided with it. Lots of troops were moved from Europe to the Soviet Far East, so they couldn't have begun an invasion of Manchuria from a standing start.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

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Possibly you're right about the connection between the Hiroshima Bomb and the Russian attack on Japan, although I've certainly seen inferences of connection on these boards between events far more tenuous than those two.

However, I still find it so stunning that, according to the article cited above, the day AFTER the Hiroshima Bomb the Japanese were still putting out feelers to Russia over mediating a peace agreement under Japanese-dictated terms. They STILL didn't seem to know what Russia was going to do. One of the utterly surreal elements is the fact that the Japanese were "willing" to give back Russian territories like Sakhalin to the Russians as a condition of the mediation. Seriously, how could they have BEEN so deluded?

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Couldn't have said it better myself.



I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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If dropping those bombs save done US Marine it was worth it

Not even talking about all the Japanese lives saved ending the war quicker than a full scale invasion

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Japan was not going to surrender. That is not their way, to "give up". So the war would have continued and many thousands of American lives would have been lost.

The Japanese were "negotiating" for the end of the war but it was the Allies doing all the talking and threatening. the Japanese just didn't realize the Americans could back up their threats.

Truman didn't order the bombs dropped willy nilly. He was told EXACTLY what was really going on, and what the experts felt would continue in those islands possibly another 2-5 years!

Japan could have saved all those lives by surrendering. It is a smart thing to know when to give up.

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Agreed.

Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language.

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In my mind war is war. There are atrocities on all side. THAT is the bottom line.

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I agree with you soccertrainy101.

Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language.

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I didn't read it that way at all.

He used the word "race" because Japanese people happen to have a nearly completely corresponding race and nationality due to their being an island nation for several millennia. He used the term "race" to cover the Japanese people/culture/nation...not the broader Asian/Mongoloid "race". Neither did he say modern Japanese are lovely people due to their Asian race...they are because after the war their culture took a drastic turn for the better.

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No. Go back and finish grade school. Learn some basic reading, writing and grammar skills. You're too far behind dumb ass. To call you a retard would be a grave insult to retarded people.

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when germans were brought to USA as POW's during world war 2 they were in shock at how nicely and humane they were treated, clean clothes, soap, toothpaste, beds, sheets, blankets, shoes, nice and modern facilities etc.. they also LOVED America!
the japanese were also treated the same way!!

but! we were treated like animals in Japanese camps!
and not better in german camps!


Actually German POW camps were a LOT better than Japanese POW camps.
Not as good as American POW camps but not that much worse.

Remember... A Military POW Camp is not the same as the Concentration Camps the Nazis put the Jews in as Death camps. While the Nazis were quite horrendous in their treatment of undesirables such as Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies, etc... Military POWs were treated fairly under the rules of war in most instances.

Of course there are always individual exceptions that can be pointed out, but on the main... you are wrong in German POW camp conditions.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Muricans aren't too bright lets be honest.They think Japan started WWII.They are unfamiliar with Asian history prior to December 7th 1941.

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[deleted]

Dec 7th 1941 was when the war started FOR America...


Only Muricans could be this stupid.

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Don't feed the troll, CGSailor. He's got nothing.

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Yeah... reported and ignored.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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What a childlike simplistic view of history you Muricans have.I guess the US entered WWI on April 6th, 1917.
never mind...

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