Jung was completely sick and insane. - A Dangerous Method (2011) Discussion

[–] eYeDEF 12 years ago

"It was bad enough that he crossed the line and had S&M sex with her ..."

While I agree that it was unethical that he had sex with his patient, I'm not sure why it matters to you whether it was conventional sex or S&M based. People should be free to practice whatever type of consensual sex they desire whether you personally approve and practice such things or not.

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[–] eYeDEF 12 years ago

"but i think that because he knew how insane she really was, he couldn't have loved her"

How are those two issues you mentioned at all considered "insane"? You seem like a highly judgmental and sheltered person. Having a sexual fetish does not quality a person as "insane". Not even remotely.

Furthermore Jung was a psychiatrist who was used to hearing all sort of odd and unusual psychological pathologies. What you think of as "insane" would not have been unusual behavior for him or Freud to hear. Why do you think Freud came up with such bizarre theories like "anal fixation", "anal retentive", and "anal expulsive"? Don't you think that's rather overindulgent in his obsession of ass if he never heard about it in his practice?

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[–] Victorias_Secret 12 years ago

WOW! A lot of Jung-bashing on this board. As a masochist, I find your comments, ada rockchick, offensive. I'm in a long-term, committed and loving relationship. Yes, we "pervs" can have and give love. I hope you are doing as well as I am in that regard.

I partially agree with those who say psychoanalysis is a largely discarded method. The field of psychiatry has become dominant as it is part of the medical profession and much less time-consuming in our fast-moving world. You probably recall Freud also criticized Jung for not being "scientific" enough. Personally, I don't care about that. I think Jung was a great philosopher. Some of you think his excursions into romanticism were bad. I couldn't agree less. I love Wagner, as did Sabrina and Jung. Modern Paganism and Witchcraft owe Jung a lot.

I agree that it is unethical for a shrink to have a relationship with a patient. And he was rather caddish to Sabrina at times. But, as he said, sometimes you have to do the unforgivable. Just like the lyrics of Depeche Mode's Strange Love.

Terry (one of the 99%)
Your soul and your body are your own, and yours to do with as you wish.

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[–] kenny-164 12 years ago

Not to go on the Pirates of the Carribean connection with Keira K., but this rule against sleeping/having a relationship with one's patient is, while of course generally good, and certainly more than just a guideline, not one that sometimes might have an exception?

I don't know the answer to that, except that ADM did seem to be making at least the observation that Jung and Sabrina at least on some levels both benefitted from their relationship.

Sabrina after all was presented as an attraction that was near impossible for Jung to resist. She appealed to him but also seemed to present a particular mix of qualities that called out to his making an exception. Even Jung's wife seemed to be suggesting he go for it. To what extent that represents what was really going on in his real life or merely was the director's work in subverting our judgment that the rule should be followed, I can't say. but the net effect did make me appreciate that at least it was worth considering here that an exception to the rule may have been right.

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[–] larryd552002 12 years ago

The reason a psychoanalyst never acts on such impulses is that it is counter-therapeutic. A therapist waits until "transference love" develops then uses it to gain the trust and cooperation of the patients. Then when all the symptoms are cleared up, the transference love itself must be removed, because that too is ALWAYS a neurotic symptom that normally develops on its own during therapy. In other words, during the therapeutic process the therapist himself causes a neurotic symptom and is therefore obliged to cure it. To call the use of that illness to gratify a sexual urge "immoral" is an understatement.

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[–] nikkiten1979 12 years ago

Most psychologists/psychiatrists are mentally disturbed and that's why they study psychology. By helping others they are helping themselves and they tend to fall for those that are like them even if they don't act on it.

(•_•)

can't outrun your own shadow

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[–] Bob Pr. 12 years ago

Most psychologists/psychiatrists are mentally disturbed and that's why they study psychology. By helping others they are helping themselves and they tend to fall for those that are like them even if they don't act on it.

Sources?

References?

I'm a PhD clinical psychologist with many years of experience dealing with schizophrenics, bipolars, and all other mental disorders that can be committed** (although the bulk of my private practice work was with marriage and family issues).

While there may be a few professionals (unfortunately) who DO have the characteristics you attribute to ALL, in my 40 years in the field, I've not been close to any of them.

I've had many friends and associates who are psychiatrists and psychologists and NONE would be therapists who'd be guilty of your accusations.

What you're referring to is mainly "counter-transference"-- and good/adequate therapists would NEVER let that interfere.

__________________________________________________

**Edited to Add: "committed" is NOT used here as in the sense of "committed a sin" or "committed to his work" but, rather, in the sense of committed by a court to a treatment facility for the mentally insane.

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[–] sageonelove 12 years ago

"While there may be a few professionals (unfortunately) who DO have the characteristics you attribute to ALL, in my 40 years in the field, I've not been close to any of them."

Bob Pr. - Just out of curiosity, if you did find out about a colleage that was behaving unethically ( sexual relations with a patient, for example) would you turn that doctor in to the authorities?

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[–] Bob Pr. 12 years ago

Sageonelove asked:

"Bob Pr. - Just out of curiosity, if you did find out about a colleage that was behaving unethically ( sexual relations with a patient, for example) would you turn that doctor in to the authorities?"

Of course.

But how I handled it would depend on specific circumstances.

If it was someone I did not know well, I'd first contact some colleagues I did know well, share my source of information with them and ask them to evaluate it as I did, and try for our group message to the governing board to investigate the situation. But if I couldn't get others to join me, I'd do it myself.

If it was someone I knew well, I'd approach that person and recommend that they self-report their unethical behavior and try for a resolve maybe involving therapy with another therapist for that victim plus supervision of any that therapist's future therapy work by board appointed supervisors. Whether the therapist is bounced from the profession or monitored or something in between depends on how the individual case and circumstances are viewed by the Board. If the person did not self-report and keep me fully apprised of the situation, I'd have to contact the Board myself.

NOT reporting it would lead to MUCH problems and many more unethical acts by both the therapist plus often also by their client(s)/patient(s)--as well as for the profession and prospecive clients, etc.

Should good police turn their backs on seeing THEIR colleagues steal, harm, extort, etc.?

Should good neighbors turn their backs on seeing sexual or other kinds of abuse of and by THEIR neighbors?

Should good teachers turn their backs on seeing a colleague have an unethical relation with a student?

Same principle for good therapists.

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[–] sageonelove 12 years ago

Bob Pr. - Thanks for your comprehensive and thoughtful answer. I also agree that we all have a responsibility to step in when something is obviously wrong (I have done so myself on occasion) bt of course a professional such as a therapist or teacher would be held to a higher standard than a neighbor or schoolmate.

I had a good friend that not only had relations with her therapist (on the floor of his office on the rug) but he also charged her for the sessions! She finally left that situation and sought counseling with a new therapist but was treated like "hot potato" by a series of therapists, none of whom wanted to get into it because the abusing psychiatrist was established and powerful.

It is a difficult situation for a patient who is obviously having issues to come forward against a credentialed therapist and get anyone to believe her. If I knew then what I know now I would have suggested she get DNA proof, but of course this was before DNA testing. The woman was very flighty and rather ambivilent about prosecution, but I can't help but wonder how much damage was done.

We have lost touch over the years and the therapist has since passed away, his reputation intact.

How would you suggest a patient get proof of unethical conduct? Would a recording device be sufficient or would DNA be required.

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[–] Bob Pr. 12 years ago

sageonelove, I'm very sorry about your friend. That's tragic!! Unfortunately, back room politics are sometimes found outside of political parties -- in religious denominations, fraternal groups, universities, etc.

Regarding where to go and with what evidence, the person should contact the appropriate governing board (that handles licensing/certification, ethics, malpractice) in their state.

These agencies' title-name and which professions they cover differ from state to state. For instance, in my state (Kansas), our Behavioral Science Regulatory Board covers all non-MD therapists (psychologists, social workers, counselors) while MDs are handled by their own.

(About 10 years ago, some newspaper articles chronicled some seeming chronic leniency in the way that board handled unethical MD behavior which led to its executive director being sacked and the board revised.)

If the person doesn't know which agency to contact, I suggest any aggrieved person contact that therapist's national professional organization and ask them for the title & phone # of the appropriate state agency in their particular state. (E.g., the American Medical Assocition, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of Social Workers.)

When they contact their state agency, it should be able to advise the person of what to do, how to do it, etc.

If the state agency reprimands or decertifies/unlicenses the therapist, that would be grounds for the person to contact a lawyer to seek damages.

Alternatively, an aggrieved person could contact a lawyer specializing in malpractice from the beginning but that could have the risk of some attornies running up expenses and much time for their own benefit.

I'd suggest first filing a complaint with the appropriate state agency. An attorney can always be used as a next step if either the person is unhappy with the state agency's actions OR as a further follow-up to that agency's actions.

Hope this helps.

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[–] sageonelove 12 years ago

Again, thanks for this valuable information. I doubt if I will across another instance like this but if I do I will know what to do, or what to advise. I actually printed out your response to keep just in case.

I have also known many people to benefit from professional counselling (including myself when I was facing empty nest feelings when my daughter went off to college) and in none of those cases was the therapist anything but good intentioned and professional.

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[–] nikkiten1979 12 years ago

Dear Bob Pr. I don't need sources or references to state a simple little fact.

and good/adequate therapists would NEVER let that interfere.

Of course not, who said it would interfere? On the contrary!

(•_•)

can't outrun your own shadow

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[–] Bob Pr. 12 years ago

Dear Bob Pr. I don't need sources or references to state a simple little fact.

nikkiten1979: When you make generalizations such as:

Most psychologists/psychiatrists are mentally disturbed and that's why they study psychology. By helping others they are helping themselves and they tend to fall for those that are like them even if they don't act on it.

you're making a sweeping generalization similar to someone saying that "most people who believe that most psychologists & psychiatrists are mentally disturbed are themselves mentally unbalanced and are rationalizing why they should not seek the help they're afraid they need."

Wouldn't you like some source or reference for such a statement?

Let's let those others, less biased than either of us, easily guess on which side there's the preponderance of evidence.

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[–] nikkiten1979 12 years ago

If you think that most people become what they are or study/work in a specific field out of the blue without any background, then I don't know what to say to you. I did read a book about psychology a really long time ago - I'm pretty sure I still have it somewhere in my dusty library - and it does talk about why we are in interested in psychology and it talks about the reasons why psychiatrists, councelors, etc have chosen that field.

ps. Everyone in the world has a degree of sickness and insanity about them even the ones that think they are normal. No one is 100% normal. There's simply no such thing.

ps #2 I do respect the fact that you are a PhD in psychology.

(•_•)

can't outrun your own shadow

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[–] larryd552002 12 years ago

I have a good quote for you from another imdb reviewed film "Saving Private Ryan."

"That's brilliant bumpkin!"

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[–] BaronMoritani 12 years ago

Because her story is a lie.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] Mary_Jane_Abba-Zaba 10 years ago

You're an idiot.

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[–] jim_ruuth 12 years ago

she is the dream of every man, a hot kinky chick that likes to get her ass spanked. just lovely :D

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[–] 12 years ago

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