MovieChat Forums > Forks Over Knives (2013) Discussion > knives over forks

knives over forks

posted 13 years ago by feelgoodagain
80 replies | jump to latest

In response to those who can't see any further than a USDA food poster, who have reviewed this film:

The UK government spends £1.2 Billion annually, on treating illness as a direct result of meat and dairy consumption, in line with a recent Oxford University study, commissioned by the Soil Association 2010.

You think meat/dairy consumption is healthy, then you are more deluded than you sound.

Consider the earliest known time at which man was unequivocally known to have used fire to cook, some 128,000 years ago. There is no way we could have evolved significantly enough in that time to consume 'cooked' meat....as well as our sliding/grinding jaw movement....the health statistics prove it! How many Omnivores in the wild do you know of, that actually 'cook' their meat because they cannot digest it raw, EXACTLY, try waking up a little, we are herbivores!
Einstein found the truth a little late: http://tinyurl.com/3yrhhzw but he found it!!

Over 600,000 new cases of stroke in America EVERY year, says research(?) carried out in 'Argentina' of all places (showing no link to red meat consumption and cancer) that produce huge volumes of meat is misconstrued, or perhaps papers fiddled at source?! Put it to the test and commission Oxford University to research there, instead of referring to government backed 'doctors' that do the research.

I sincerely hope your tap water doesn't become polluted due to the run off from a vast slurry lagoon at a Super Dairy or Super farm....the meat/dairy industries are a global menace and must be dealt with accordingly.

As for your references to Vegans, I think you need to seriously reconsider your misconceptions. I personally am a 210lb Vegan weightlifter and athlete, vegan for over 6 years, pescatarian 3 years previously (still gaining muscle mass on 40g of plant protein per day).....my main aim is to promote good health (because I don't know a single family personally that has not been inflicted by a dietary disorder and or death). I am a humanist AND animal lover.....so please reconsider to change perceptions now, because people are suffering due to misinformation regarding diet.

[–] teapee28 13 years ago

I like meat.

[–] Luckie Starr 13 years ago

Yeah, trust me, most people don't become vegan because they hate the taste of meat. *eyeroll* It's about a greater good than that.

What we got here is an unsatisfying situation.

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

>>Yeah, trust me, most people don't become vegan because they hate the taste of meat. *eyeroll* It's about a greater good than that. <<

Considering the Vegan diet kills more animals per serving than meat does, i';d say your so-called "good" ain't all that great.

[–] rlburns666 13 years ago

"Considering the Vegan diet kills more animals per serving than meat does"
Do you always pull ideas out of your ass, and present them as "fact"?

[–] rlburns666 13 years ago

A true vegan diet kills no animals. Way to post utter *beep* with it's basis in nothing!

[–] terrillcase30655 13 years ago

I like meat too and don't really care what this movie says about it. There's no real facts there the people in the movie are Vegan so yeah they are going to try and make it sound bad. I am not a herbavoir or whatever I eat meat and proud of it!!! Bring on the steak!!

[–] blando3 12 years ago

How can you actually be "proud" of eating meat? I eat meat occasionally, but am certainly not proud of the environmental destruction and horrific animal suffering that brings meat to my table. Those are huge reasons to be - if anything - ashamed of eating meat.

This film was very thought-provoking and it invites everyone to reconsider their diets and try a vegetarian lifestyle. See how it makes you feel.

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] conmancyst2000 13 years ago

The China Study was flawed.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

[–] joejirik 13 years ago

The study may have been flawed to a point that any study carries certain flaws, we have to choose to acknowledge and accept these flaws in consuming the data. You also do not present any counter evidence to the study.

Further I recommend you and anyone else interested in reading Colin Campbell's response here:
http://www.tcolincampbell.org/fileadmin/Presentation/finalmingercritique.pdf

[–] glasses9 13 years ago

"we are herbivores"

What is your source of B12?

[–] sendkaren 12 years ago

I wonder who came up with the name B12?

I wonder where an elephant get his B12!

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] conmancyst2000 13 years ago

Sorry, one more thing came to mind. Regarding we have to cook meat to digest it: How many raw/unprocessed grains do you eat?
Also I can eat raw eggs and fish no problem. Can't say the same about grains.

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

To All,

Thanks for your comments.

That's correct I don't eat meat or dairy and I am am over 215lbs and still gaining muscle mass (I am a Vegan athlete and bodybuilder)I can now stay much leaner, much easier than when I used to trough down meat and dairy at 1.5g-3g per lb of lean body weight(fundamental falsehood the protein supplement industry is literally built on). http://tinyurl.com/Einsteintoldusmeatwasbad
I regularly give blood and have had full spectrum blood analysis, with no deficiencies. I did have lower than average white blood cell levels as expected.

Tell me, what are your views on the 600,000+ new cases of stroke EVERY year in the USA?. [Source: strokecentre.org] B12 is abundant in organic homegrown veg...or in such plant based elixirs such as Floravital, where the B12 is derived from plant matter.

As for human inability to eat raw meat.....firstly we as humans for one have no appendages for ripping into hide and flesh and tendons....we have a sliding jaw movement, our canines are shorter than our central incisors, we have a 25 foot intestinal tract that if we were scaled to the size of a horse our intestinal tract would be 1.5 times the length to that of a horse.....oh and the concentration of peptides and hydrochloric acid in our stomachs are 20 times less than that of a carnivore.
Also can you name any carnivore OR omnivore species that actually cooks meat???.

As for my meat and dairy munching friends, family and colleagues, they suffer or have died from cases of auto-immune diseases, brittle bones (hypercalciuria), cancers, stroke, obesity, arthritis. As I mentioned I once ate the standard government issue diet (that pays government subsidies and boosts the pharmaceutical industry). As a humanist and animal lover I now want to protect the meat eating family I have, by having them reduce and eliminate meat and dairy from their diets. Because I have lost many family members and friends at early stages in their lives to cancer of the esophagus, stroke, heart disease so on and so forth.

You may say I know people who have lived into their 80's/90's, but I can assure you that there are a much larger proportion of that die prematurely from dietary and lifestyle related diseases. In accordance with a recent W.H.O study more people are expected to become long term ill from non communicable disease, becoming a burden to society.
A recent Oxford University study in 2010 proved undoubtedly that the meat and dairy diet is responsible for 1.2 Billion of NHS expenditure.

[–] dizzydarko 13 years ago

This is a joke, right?

So you can just say 600,000+ strokes happen each year and all off a sudden I shouldn't eat meat?

I saw the trailer for Forks over Knives and heard them bring up about all the cultures that live on a plant based diet are healthy but fail to mention all the cultures that live almost entirely on meat are also just as healthy.

Watch Fat Head; http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1333994/ this focuses on the true enemy of obesity without trying to put out an agenda. Processed Carbohydrates. They spike the blood sugar and promote fat storage. Fats alone are just energy that the body uses. Saturated fat are GOOD for you. Simple google search will show this.

I'm not saying you are wrong for wanting YOURSELF to eat a vegan diet. Go for it, it works for you, all the more power. But don't push your vegan agenda on the rest of us with lies that meat is bad for us. What's the true story behind film? animal rights?

I'm going to enjoy my HEALTHY lifestyle of fruits, vegatable, nuts, whole grains, grass fed BEEF and PORK, free range CHICKEN and EGGS, wild caught SALMON and SEAFOOD. MMMMMM a nice bloody dripping steak sounds so good right now. When I eat it i can almost hear the cow screaming. brings tears to my eyes about how good it tastes.

Ha...meat is bad for you. Give me a break.

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

Well the USDA have done a good job on you....they spend multi millions $ on pushing Dairy and Meat products. If it was so damn good for you, why would they need to advertise with such tenacity, a diet high in animal products at schools, pushing it vigorously and paying celebrities (GotMilk)?. They want to keep people conditioned to profit on subsidies.

I agree we need a balance of fats in our body at the correct ratio of Omega 3, 6 and 9. Yes I agree that processed carbohydrates are also a big problem, the human body is designed to burn simple and natural carbohydrates.

You think meat/dairy eating people are equally as healthy on average?. You are really having a joke. Quote "all the cultures that live almost entirely on meat are also just as healthy" I'm sorry?. You think North/Eastern Americans for example, who in general eat a diet, VERY high in animal fat diet are on average healthy?...now virtually 1 in 3 are obese (It's a national U.S statistic, deal with it);

Quote Source: Thirty-three states have an obesity prevalence equal to or greater than 25% << [source www.cdc.gov] - Try taking a stronger brand of coffee and stop protecting the organizations that are hurting people around you.

You would soon be complaining if you had a super dairy or super farm upstream of your drinking water source....a lot of meat eaters have complained due to threat of contamination to water supplies.

I for one ate a diet high in animal LDL fats and proteins for 26 years and experienced how my body eventually came under such pressure from long chain fatty acids from animals (animal fat solid at body temperature 37deg, that also clogs sinks and drains), that I eventually fell asleep continuously, had low energy levels, Leaky Gut, looked puffy all the time, breath like a corpse and bad greasy skin.

There is no agenda, I don't want your money, I have meat eating family that I care for and have lost family and close friends, most at ages way before their time....YES 600,000 strokes every year (it's a stat), that's ONE SINGLE form of illness, the most disabling in the USA, but by no means the biggest killer amongst a myriad of dietary and lifestyle killers.

Why not ask Bill Clinton what he thinks of it all (Quadruple Heart ByPass).

Out of curiosity, are you an agent for the USDA or a cattle/dairy farmer?.

[–] dizzydarko 13 years ago

What makes me laugh is yes, you are right 600,000+ strokes a year is a stat. That happens, however, you are somehow saying it's because of meat? Care to elaborate on that?

I don't think people are healthy in general. However, I know I am healthy having meat in my diet.

"You think meat/dairy eating people are equally as healthy on average?. You are really having a joke. Quote "all the cultures that live almost entirely on meat are also just as healthy" I'm sorry?. You think North/Eastern Americans for example, who in general eat a diet, VERY high in animal fat diet are on average healthy?...now virtually 1 in 3 are obese (It's a national U.S statistic, deal with it);"

-I'm not referring to Americans at all in my statement, their diet consist mainly of processed everything. Watch Fat Head, they talk about cultures in Africa/Asia, tribes of people who rely almost all on animals for food and have no health problems.

The arguement should not be plants v. meat it should be natural v. processed.

"I for one ate a diet high in animal LDL fats and proteins for 26 years and experienced how my body eventually came under such pressure from long chain fatty acids from animals (animal fat solid at body temperature 37deg, that also clogs sinks and drains), that I eventually fell asleep continuously, had low energy levels, Leaky Gut, looked puffy all the time, breath like a corpse and bad greasy skin."

-I don't know what you did to yourself for 26 years, but i've seen people with terrible diets that don't sound as bad off as the person you described. Eating meat will not do what you said. absurd that you even would try to pass that off. I have no problem with someone wanting to be a vegetarian. Why do you care so much that someone wants to be healthy eating meat? Wondering about the whole animal rights thing now.

"YES 600,000 strokes every year (it's a stat), that's ONE SINGLE form of illness, the most disabling in the USA, but by no means the biggest killer amongst a myriad of dietary and lifestyle killers"

-Wait! there's all that disease in America? A country whose people eat lettuce and tomoatoes on their burgers? They put lettuce, cucumbers, carrots and spinach in with their chicken, bacon bits and ranch dressing. Whose sugar loaded juice contains 10% fruit. broccoli in my mushroom alfredo. OH MY GOD THAT'S IT! fruit and vegetables are causing all these problems!

We must warn people at once. See what i just did there?

I don't eat processed carbs, i keep my sugar and sodium intake low. I eat a balanced diet of everything as natural as i can get it. I exercise regularely and I am in good health.

The thing that upsets me most about this movie and people that back it is that they are using so much energy protesting something that won't make a difference. So let's all stop having people eat meat, then they can fill up on potato chips and pasta and bread and tortilla shells...mmmmm pass me a pop tart and some capri suns. I dont eat meat anymore i'm healthy!

You get my point?

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

"Stroke death rates are higher for African Americans than for whites, even at younger ages." - Source Strokecenter.org

Quote "The argument should not be plants v. meat it should be natural v. processed." So you are comparing tribes people who eat a fraction in total of animal fats (namely LDL cholesterol) that Americans do, agreed on the quality of those animals in the food chain, [e.g American animals are nowhere near as "lean" as African animals]MUCH MORE F-A-T-T-Y - so goes back to levels of Saturated fats again (solid at body temperature LYPEMIA). Not forgetting as you said the level of PCBs and Dioxins in American meats from all that un-natural grain feed with added pulped/ground fish bulk (also full of contaminants). Oh dear

Of all strokes, 87 percent are ischemic, 10 percent are intracerebral hemorrhage, and 3 percent are subarachnoid hemorrhage. - Source Strokcenter.org

From medical journal:
What causes ischemia - A poor diet, rich in saturated fats can contribute to increasing blood cholesterol levels. Hypercholesterolemia is believed to be one of THE MAJOR causes responsible for the development of ischemic heart disease/ stroke as a high LDL also known as ‘bad‘ cholesterol level can lead to the narrowing of the coronary arteries walls. In this process a fatty built-up gathers in form of plaques obstructing the blood flow and creating blockages.

I already explained why I care, because so many people I know and those I don't know, rich, poor and famous, cancer, heart disease, diabetes etc etc....Stop playing your Animal Rights ("only for weird people") card. I am a humanist and animal lover....stop playing cheap cards.

Your piece on salad in burgers is your lousiest cheap shot to date :D
At least we have middle ground on processed carbs....but what you talk about lastly, is re-educating America on diet.....so ForksoverKnives certainly has an important role to play today.
But I am sure the government won't flinch much, because they hold the $$$$ to make the $$$$$$$$$. So many people out there that can be easily influenced ;)

[–] dizzydarko 13 years ago

I'm not talking about African Americans,I'm talking about remote African/Asian tribes that rely on meat for their diet and are damn healthy without having to take a b12 supplement. An African is someone from Africa. An African American is an American from African decent please tell me your not as racially ignorant as you are clouded with this no meat crusade?

But thanks for once again just quoting some random health fact thinking because you said it, it means its because of meat.

So you say American animals are no where near as lean as African. So you are admitting there are "healthy" animals to eat?

I don't know what you're trying to say about PCB's and Dioxins in "American" meat. There is plenty healthy meat to be eaten in America.

Whatever you're quoting from whatever journal is straight up wrong. Saturated fats help move cholesterol through the blood. Processed carbs is what actually leads to plaque build up.

Calling you out on your animals rights platform is not a cheap ploy, not anymore cheap then people gathering data and then only using the bits that "prove" your no meat theory. Like the original about saturated fats from the 50's and the China Study which forks over knives is based on.

My piece on salad in burgers is just what you're doing but reversed, you take some health statistics about Americans and say, "well they eat meat and they're sick so it must be because of meat." When I just pointed out you can easily say they eat vegetables too. However, both sides are wrong. It's the processed foods that get Americans. But please help your sick family by cutting out meat but stuffing their faces with pasta, bread, bagels, granola bars, frozen dinners and cereals. I'm not eating meat. I'm healthy!

You throw out the USDA and the government like they are pushing this meat revolution when the USDA calls for 300 grams of carbs a day (extremely unhealthy) and is against red meat.

Again, have fun with your vegetarian diet. I'm glad it works for you. My balanced diet works for me. I had two all beef patties with a salad from romain, spinach, tomatoes, carrots, baby corn and sunflower seeds for dinner tonight, it was awesome. Hopefully when I fall asleep I won't get a stroke or heart attack.

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

Dizzydarko - I'm not talking about African Americans,I'm talking about remote African/Asian tribes that rely on meat for their diet and are damn healthy without having to take a b12 supplement. An African is someone from Africa. An African American is an American from African decent please tell me your not as racially ignorant as you are clouded with this no meat crusade?

- No not ignorant at all....I knew what you were refering to and those traditional indigenous tribes do not focus on meat as the main element of their daily meal in any case, meat is mainly used to enhance stews, with Yams, various veg and legumes making up the main staple of their diets. In general Africans cannot afford to regularly consume or breed cattle on any real scale to become heavy consumers of meat....with Beef, Goat and Sheep (mutton) being very expensive to the average African.

- So tell me, if an African Tribesman (of the same historic bloodline as an African American) was eating the average standard 'All American/western' diet today, because lets remember that's what we are "actually" debating. Whereby that person was consuming saturated ALL AMERICAN PRODUCED animal fat in EVERY meal (basically metabolising long chain fatty acids LDL Saturated fat into their bloodstream of which this type of fat is CLINICALLY PROVEN TO BE SOLID AT BODY TEMPERATURE 37 degrees, that they would be physiologically, EQUALLY as healthy as in their native homeland?. Because according to FACTUAL demographic data. Let me just spell this out....Factual Statistical government and independent clinical research data sources [not "Fat Head"] people of African descent are much more disposed to Diabetes, to stroke (as I previously mentioned from source data) than any other ethical bloodline on planet earth.....how do you plead?. Ignorant?.
I don't take a B12 supplement, but being sensible about it, I do realise that we are all slightly genetically different and this goes for meat eaters deficient in B12 also. But there is a 100% plant based non-Heme B12 elixir out there called Floravital.It's in the soil and in us to a point,it's a bacteria.

Dizzydarko - So you say American animals are no where near as lean as African. So you are admitting there are "healthy" animals to eat?

- Once again you have tried to take my statement out of context, to try and use it to your own advantage. Remember we are talking about the average American diet (what ends up in pressured American meat supplies?). This is fundamentally what KNIVESOVERFORKS is all about. In response to your statement, utilizing hard scientific and historical fact and proven clinical trial knowledge, meat of any type is not particularly healthy for the human body.
The point you are missing, before you tried to undermine my statement over African food source, is that the difference being, that yes African animals are leaner and importantly animal fats are not consumed as consistently (or hidden) as in the average American diet.

- If you are so assured of your statement's accuracy, showing a correlation towards African tribes people being statistically MORE healthy than your average American meat eater on ratio. Why have you not provided Demographic source references for mortality in those areas of Africa versus average American mortality based on relative population and factorisation?.
Where are your source references, or is this a personally subjective war against supposed Sandal Wearing Tree Hugging Animal Activists? lol - of which I am neither.

Dizzydarko - But thanks for once again just quoting some random health fact thinking because you said it, it means its because of meat.

- Random Health fact? Random (Since when did you quote an official, ...NO WAIT "Credible" source site in your ramblings?)[Fat Head? - spare me]. Let me answer this for you. There are three basic sub-groups of people in life, after those that resist change and those that embrace change:

1) The Denier - Those that go through life and EVEN when confronted by hard factual data from reliable and official source, they will deny that what they are doing is essentially wrong. It is human nature to want to feel that what they’re doing is right, proper and logical. When confronted with something that suggests that their current practices are not the best ones, it’s uncomfortable (enter "Fat Head"??). They can either consider that their choices may not have been the best ones, which is extremely disturbing, or they can reject that premise without truly considering it, so that they don’t have to feel bad about their actions.

These people will take most things and argue out of context to meet their own ends, use inflammatory dialogue and have little empathy. Only when they do become ill before their time [we hope not obviously], they will then attempt or seek to resolve by the alternative proposed solution (as Einstein did in the last year/s of his life) [as did a work colleague of mine before his wife contracted breast cancer and he died from cancer and circulatory disorder shortly after his wife had mastectomies to survive].
Einstein quoted: “So I am living without fats, without meat, without fish, but am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore.” He meant animal derived LDL triglycerides (before you take this out of context too).

2) The Realist - Those that when confronted by hard factual data from reliable and official source or study, will firstly reflect for a period of time. They will then do further research based on pros and cons of factual data. They will analyse the statistics, they will construct a picture of how the data correlates to their understanding of reality and draw a list of people they know family/friends/celebrities etc that have died or been afflicted from apparent diet and lifestyle related disease....then they will put two and two together. The next step from there is to implement a plant based diet.
PLEASE NOTE: NO MENTION OF ANIMAL RIGHTS, THIS IS BASED ON A HUMANISTIC VIEWPOINT. OF COURSE THERE IS A MORE MIDDLE RIGHT TO RIGHT WING ELEMENT OF [YOUR] MUCH BELOVED ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST THAT YOU CONSISTENTLY REFER TO, AS THERE ARE IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

3) Fence Sitter - Those that when confronted by hard factual data from reliable, credible and official source or study, will firstly reflect for a period of time, then come to the conclusion that although they agree there are considered issues for and against, for personal health and environmental benefit. Those people will still be partly influenced by conditioning from a young age (as we all are) and curious, but somewhat perturbed by a complete change, usually due to lack of education or research. These people will usually try and strike a balance in becoming Flexatarian and this is now a growing area of modern day culture.

Dizzydarko - I don't know what you're trying to say about PCB's and Dioxins in "American" meat. There is plenty healthy meat to be eaten in America.

- Once again, "meat being healthy"....if you had to go into a field, wrestle a cow, then tear/strip it of its hide and then "satisfactorily" eat the raw flesh and internal organs all with your bare hands, because you are genetically and physiologically adapted to do so....seriously ask yourself and answer me, could you do so and are you?. That's before we even get into the physiological side of meat digestion!

Dizzydarko - Whatever you're quoting from whatever journal is straight up wrong. Saturated fats help move cholesterol through the blood. Processed carbs is what actually leads to plaque build up.

- Exactly who are you?. Are you a surgeon general?. Were our cave dwelling ancestors Nutritionists?. (I am not either, but who are these people you purport to uphold such claims that honest long serving medical affiliates are advising us on?).

Tell me why a surgeon of 30 years (not the only one for sure) bought up on a farm and a diet of animals and associated animal products. Who sees 1000's of people in his 30 year career (again he is not alone) being sedated on an operating table (in their 40's/50's/60's and having saturated plug fat tubors pulled from their heart arteries and given Quadruple Hear Bypasses) Tell me why these surgeons are coming forward and saying "hey people look we were wrong, what you have been told and SOLD is also wrong".
These are highly educated people in comfortable well paid professions with no "AGENDA" as you like to call it. Their mission is not to sell or to preach falsehoods or crazy religions, they are honest trustworthy people with a message of truth and are out there educating and literally saving lives (FACT).
What are FATHEADS.com actually doing?. Being obstructive.

Dizzydarko - Calling you out on your animals rights platform is not a cheap ploy, not anymore cheap then people gathering data and then only using the bits that "prove" your no meat theory. Like the original about saturated fats from the 50's and the China Study which forks over knives is based on.

- Unfortunately for you....I am able to quote (face value - government), long term research, university, medical, scientific and clinical fact, you refer to "Fat Head".....see the difference?. See what I did?. You are compartmentalising each area in turn to benefit your own argument. Look at the bigger picture.

Dizzydarko - My piece on salad in burgers is just what you're doing but reversed, you take some health statistics about Americans and say, "well they eat meat and they're sick so it must be because of meat." When I just pointed out you can easily say they eat vegetables too. However, both sides are wrong. It's the processed foods that get Americans. But please help your sick family by cutting out meat but stuffing their faces with pasta, bread, bagels, granola bars, frozen dinners and cereals. I'm not eating meat. I'm healthy!

- Again you try to take a statement and use it out of context (you are very good at this, are you sure you are not a USDA agent?) you are now turning the debate into a Subjective forum, when the hard statistics and data are anything but. I agree with you on the last sentence, there needs to be re-education...."You can't just say to someone, here's what not to eat".

Dizzydarko - You throw out the USDA and the government like they are pushing this meat revolution when the USDA calls for 300 grams of carbs a day (extremely unhealthy) and is against red meat.

- Tell me why the USDA posters reside in schools and pre-schools are recommended to supply coloured milk?. They say one thing and use propaganda and investment via various mltiple streams to proliferate their associated products.

Dizzydarko - Again, have fun with your vegetarian diet. I'm glad it works for you. My balanced diet works for me. I had two all beef patties with a salad from romain, spinach, tomatoes, carrots, baby corn and sunflower seeds for dinner tonight, it was awesome. Hopefully when I fall asleep I won't get a stroke or heart attack.

- I am sure you are having fun with your balanced diet, but from what I've seen, you are a minority, 1 in 3 obese?! I am looking forward to the answer to how you are anatomically evolved to kill and eat the cow in the field above....If I get a constructive objective response at all.

- As for my plant based diet, I am 215lbs, lean, gaining and maintaining muscle and am changing "age old", "engrained" perceptions (by government agencies post 1945) of what a plant based diet eater is in the 21st Century. I have Re-evolved. Because I considered that my choices may not have been the best ones....I just hope your idea of a balanced diet, isn't "The Standard American Diet", because as Bill Clinton will tell you (and Ronald Regan would have told you, if he could)...it's really not worth it.

Let's have more fact and less Subjectiveness please.

[–] terrillcase30655 13 years ago

Eating meat is not bad for you. Eating fried greasy food and processed food is bad for you. You can cook your meat in a method where it drains alot of the fat and grease. This documentary is biased because everyone who participated in it is Vegan do you really think they are going to tell the truth? No, because they want people to believe meat is bad so they will quit eating animals. Umlike some people I dont fall for what I see in a movie I believe what i read and have seen for myself. My family eats meat as so do I and well no deaths because of it and I have memebers alive in their 80's as we speak. Doctors will even tell you and no not government paid ones that meat is not bad for you especially not fish and chicken and red meat is ok in moderation as long as you cook it healthy and drain the grease. I grill most my meat on the foreman grill and it drains the grease for me.

It is just a vegans theory that meat is bad for you its not a fact. They are interested in one thing ketting the animals live free. Heck they'd build the animals houses if they could. I love meat and wont change that and yes I understand some factory farms are brutal but hey I am not paying a fortune for meat from a nice little farm where they all live in happiness until their killed. I do eat vegatables and fruits as well but as a side dish and fruit as a healthy snack. But this movie and the china syndrome or whatever its called is very flawed in its thinking that meat is evil. Everything is ok in moderation.

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

Quote: "Umlike some people I dont fall for what I see in a movie I believe what i read and have seen for myself" - You are evidently looking in all the wrong places!!!

- The Denier [See my previous post for details] :)

[–] terrillcase30655 13 years ago

Nope sure am not looking in the wrong places. I dont believe stuff that vegans have to say about meat its because they worship every animal and such they are against meat.

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

lol - yes that's right, you just keep believing that.

[–] terrillcase30655 13 years ago

Its the truth its been proven people can live healthy on a diet that includes meat. Stay away from real greasy food like fried and processed junk food and moderate your red meat intake. Fish and chicken are excellent for you and milk isnt bad either as long as its like skim,1% or 2%.

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

Fish and Chicken excellent food source - I'm just looking at a guy on TV now,50 stone....he likes chicken too...World.Health.Organisation Quote: "Chicken today, is now on average fattier than steak and red meat".

follow me on Twitter @gazzaisvegan

[–] terrillcase30655 13 years ago

Whatever man no its not well i am done with this thread just like every other Vegan you think your opinion is right.
Bye

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

>>Stop playing your Animal Rights ("only for weird people") card. I am a humanist and animal lover....stop playing cheap cards. <<

So, in other words, you're a weird Animal Rights cultist.

>>because they hold the $$$$ to make the $$$$$$$$$. So many people out there that can be easily influenced ;)<<

Like idiot vegans who are too deluded to realize they're playing right into the hands of the organic- and protest industries?

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

>>There is no agenda, I don't want your money<<

No, you just wanna force your pseudo-religious dogma on everybody and shill for and perpetuate the lies of the people who DO want money.

[–] klcjg2009 13 years ago

@dizzydarko If all you care about are the health benefits (or lack of), then go for it, if it works for you...

But there is SO much more to this issue than the health of the individual who eats meat. Everyone who eats meat and dairy impacts everyone else in the world. Environmentally and economically. Not to mention animal rights, which I'm guessing you don't believe they have.

Meat and dairy have become products... processed foods no better than any junk food you can buy. The government has set us up for failure and everyone pays... either with their own life, a loved one's life, our healthcare system, tortured animals, ruined waters. Meat and dairy is not the source of all evil... there's also the agriculture system, which is a whole other story. But, at least we can buy seasonal, buy organic (when it's not misrepresented). I would urge all have-have meat/dairy consumers to cut down drastically and buy only whole animals from local organic farmers. Not easy to find, and pricey to buy... as it should be. You'll eat less of it, and be healthier for it.

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

"Everyone who eats meat and dairy impacts everyone else in the world. Environmentally and economically."

*beep* You're a damned liar.

"Not to mention animal rights, which I'm guessing you don't believe they have."

Yup. I also don't believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or benevolent Communism.

"buy organic"

The usual Organic Shill *beep* I love how you sit there lecturing about products and greed and global impact, and then turn around and advocate for a blatant, money-grubbing scam like organic produce.

[–] klcjg2009 13 years ago

"*beep* You're a damned liar."

Well, that's just uncalled for. How much reading have you done on the subject? I've actually done a lot, and I believe what I said is true. You don't have to believe it, but you don't have to be so rude either... but I suspect that's just who you are.

"Yup. I also don't believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or benevolent Communism."

Actually, I don't believe in SC, the TF or Communism either. Nor do I believe in organized religion. But I doubt you care what anyone else believes in, or doesn't believe in.

"The usual Organic Shill *beep* I love how you sit there lecturing about products and greed and global impact, and then turn around and advocate for a blatant, money-grubbing scam like organic produce."

No, you've got it backwards. The money grubber scam would be the Food Industry as we've known it since the invention of fast food. If you want to eat genetically modified, mass-produced, scary food, it's your choice, but don't fool yourself... unfortunately for the rest of us, you are hurting more than just yourself. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't give a you-know-what what you ate.

[–] teapee28 13 years ago

Genetically modified, mass-produced food is actually responsible for saving billions of lives and is proven safer than organic foods. Norman Borlaug won a Nobel prize because of cross breeding plants and producing higher yields from crops.

The lower the need for pesticides, the lower the danger from food becomes. Large organic food crops are full of pesticides. It is something they can not prevent as the constant mutation of diseases that can be inflicted on crops is too big of a risk financially and health wise. For instance, the recent huge e. coli outbreak that killed numerous people in Europe is believed to come from an organic farm. It is currently one of Europe's biggest disease control crisis. Genetically altered seeds eliminate the risk of disease just like a polio shot would prevent polio from spreading.

[–] klcjg2009 13 years ago

@teapee28 - You make a good argument and the issue of pesticides is definitely of importance to me. But what do you make of grocery store produce that has been pumped full of gases to make them ripen? Also preservatives to keep them fresh during their journey from farm to store? Of course, I understand that these practices can exist with organics as well. Ideally, locally produced organics are what we should be eating, imo, but I understand that it's not always possible. Does it concern you what happens to produce from the time it's planted until the time it reaches your plate? For example, how much nutrition is still in the plant by the time it reaches your plate? On an economic and moral level, have you ever read or seen Food Inc? The big seed company (Monsanto)running any farmer out of business who chooses to keep their own natural seeds is frightening. Your argument about lowering the risks of diseases like polio is very interesting, and one I will look into. Thanks for your reasonable and intelligent response to a really heated subject!

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] SaucerPinto 13 years ago

what about the people that have their diseases reversed when changing their diet? lowering their cholesterol and blood pressure, helping their heart disease risk go down dramatically after just weeks of the whole foods plant based diet? is that not the best evidence that the diet works and is something anyone who is interested in prevention should start?

were you listening? or were you looking at the women in the red dress?...

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

>>(that pays government subsidies and boosts the pharmaceutical industry). <<

Okay, so you're a Tin Hat-wearing *beep* who gets all of his misinformation from Animal Rights cults. Got it.

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

>>because people are suffering due to misinformation regarding diet.<<

And yet here you are, pushing the same vegan lies and propaganda. Tsk, tsk.

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

>>How many Omnivores in the wild do you know of, that actually 'cook' their meat because they cannot digest it raw, EXACTLY, try waking up a little, we are herbivores!
<<

We can digest raw meat as well, you dumb *beep*. Never heard of sushi or tartare?

By your stupid *beep* logic, you should be able to go into the woods ansd eat all the berries and mushrooms you find, and be fine. if you get sick or die from it, it's "proof" we're not frugi/herbivores.

And by the way, Milton Mills *beep* omnivore denialism is so full of holes and fallacies a second grader could debunk it.

[–] cassioam 13 years ago

How can we argue with people who say "I love meat and I will never stop eating it"? Of course their attachment to meat will never let them reason. They are so emotionally dependent on their meat that any attempt to question their diets will be readily dismissed, no matter how much evidence you throw at their faces.

I don't love animals. Never had a pet and don't intend to have one. I am vegan because it is the most logical thing to do. I ate meat for 28 years before I became vegan (which was 5 years ago), I have EXPERIENCED both realities. Most of these people never went one single day without eating flesh and cows secretion. So we obviously cannot expect them to offer any valid point regarding the vegan diet.

It is also comical to see their inconsistency and moral schizophrenia regarding the treatment of animals, by respecting some while killing others, based on complete arbitrary attributes. But I will not go into that, that would shatter their fragile sense of morality and trigger even more emotional responses.

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

Well said - It amuses me that the people here know nothing of me as a person, but yet they rush to accuse me of being a believer in every type of faith and being a proponent of right wing moral high ground.
Yet when I have already stated that I have no belief in either a greater god (I actually believe in biological, evolutional theories and agree with the viewpoint of Stephen Hawkings) and am completely moderate, so they are more delusional (and in many cases illiterate) than they can ever imagine themselves to be. [don't they read into what is set out before them?].

I myself do love animals, however. I believe that you can only love an animal so far as your family is loved moreover and I would never save an animal life over a human life, in as much that such circumstances permitted me to choose between them. EVEN if that human ate a meat based diet!

What makes me laugh more so, is that such Genius as the likes of Einstein, sought to remove himself from the ills of his dietary lifestyle through research and dialogue with various professionals in the field, to become Vegetarian for the remaining year/s of his life.
Yet people on here seem to believe that they are of some higher intellect, that they can simply ignore such case studies, when the case studies THEY refer to are derived indirectly (via funding streams)from the very establishment/s that proliferates bad dietary information, use of drugs for profit and continues to ignore the huge problem of associated disease (Stroke, Cancer, Heart Disease etc etc etc)and the true reasoning behind it, in their own country (Que The: "It's ALL solely processed food's fault again"). As long as subsidies are paid for, hey.....it's the good old "Status Quo"....people die young, deal with it!

Some people need to be more open minded, rather than labeling themselves in the "Denial" category.

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

Not one person has come forward to explain or answer the theory of their perceived anatomical and biological ability to wrestle kill and consume the cow in a field in its raw state including organs with their bare hands.

Here is the video link you accused me of fabricating liutenantsalt:

VIDEO: Cold blooded murder of day old baby cattle with blunt instruments for what? - a pint of milk.

http://youtu.be/eCD1CBUE2xw

Please enjoy - The original source site had so many hits, that the site owners were drawn to it's content and removed it...around 20,000+ hits in a few days.

You'll come to find that I am not a liar of any sort.

liutenantsalt refers to a link pointing to a Harvard University thesis or information pertaining to sugar and processed carbohydrates as "THE SOLE CAUSE" in all modern day dietary disease, saturated fat is good for you:

Residing on an internal page of Harvard university:-

"Harvard bioengineers have been awarded more than $3 million in funding from the National Institutes of Health and the >>>>U.S. Food and Drug Administration"<<<<< Hello planet earth calling, hello?.

If you can't see the logic of something that resides on a source website of a related source to which you quoted, you are simply more ignorant and belligerent than I ever expected.

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

"Not one person has come forward to explain or answer the theory of their perceived anatomical and biological ability to wrestle kill and consume the cow in a field in its raw state including organs with their bare hands."

Probably because your argument is idiotic and wholly nonsensical.
Why don't YOU tell us where Early Man found all those vitamins and supplements to make up for the B-12 he supposedly wasn't getting from his natural omnivorous diet?

"VIDEO: Cold blooded murder of day old baby cattle with blunt instruments for what? - a pint of milk."

So you don't know anything about milk or it's production, huh?

"http://youtu.be/eCD1CBUE2xw "

Ah yes, the Conklin Dairy hoax, where some animal-loving ARA terrorists hired some people to abuse and kill some cows while they taped so they could use it as propaganda fodder. What a wonderful bunch of animal lovers. In any case, thanks for verifying my suspicions.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/07/07/dairy-farmer-off-hook-vows-to-fight-against-future-abuse.html

http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2010/jul/06/11/charges-will-not-be-brought-against-dairy-farm-own-ar-135541/

"Please enjoy - The original source site had so many hits, that the site owners were drawn to it's content and removed it...around 20,000+ hits in a few days."

Likely story.

"You'll come to find that I am not a liar of any sort."

You're off to a real *beep* start in that regard.

"liutenantsalt refers to a link pointing to a Harvard University thesis or information pertaining to sugar and processed carbohydrates as "THE SOLE CAUSE" in all modern day dietary disease, saturated fat is good for you:
Residing on an internal page of Harvard university:-
Harvard bioengineers have been awarded more than $3 million in funding from the National Institutes of Health and the >>>>U.S. Food and Drug Administration"<<<<< Hello planet earth calling, hello?.
If you can't see the logic of something that resides on a source website of a related source to which you quoted, you are simply more ignorant and belligerent than I ever expected"

And if you smell conspiracy in the government giving SCIENTIFIC GRANT MONEY to a group of ACADEMIC SCIENTISTS WHO PUBLISH THEIR FINDINGS FOR PEER REVIEW than you're even more of self-delusional, pathological-liar, psychopathic, propaganda-spouting *beep* than you come across in print.

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

"Well said - It amuses me that the people here know nothing of me as a person, but yet they rush to accuse me of being a believer in every type of faith and being a proponent of right wing moral high ground.
"

Apparently it's only okay to pre-judge and make sweeping generalizations when they're against people who eat meat.

"Yet when I have already stated that I have no belief in either a greater god (I actually believe in biological, evolutional theories and agree with the viewpoint of Stephen Hawkings)"

And yet you know nothing about evolution. Funny how that works.

"What makes me laugh more so, is that such Genius as the likes of Einstein, sought to remove himself from the ills of his dietary lifestyle through research and dialogue with various professionals in the field, to become Vegetarian for the remaining year/s of his life.
Yet people on here seem to believe that they are of some higher intellect"

Apart from pointing out that the "YOU SHOULD BE X BECAUSE X WAS X" fallacy is as stupid an argument as you can make, I'd like to see some sources that show these alleged dialogues with alleged professionals.

"when the case studies THEY refer to are derived indirectly (via funding streams)from the very establishment/s that proliferates "

Oh boy, here we go with the Paranoid Conspiracy theory Circumstantial Ad Hominem again.

I guess it doesn't stand out to you, you being a complete *beep* moron, that the information YOU'RE trumpeting around as sacrosanct comes from disengenous sources like PETA who directly benefit financially, politically and theologically from convincing gullible folks like yourself to accept their dogma hook, line and sinker.

Right? Because it's not like there's a lot of MONEY to be made in the BUSINESS of veganism, a BUSINESS which only exists and PROFITS in the vaccum of anti-omnivore lies and propaganda which organized vegan and Animal Rights groups have crafted for themselves.

[–] liutenantsalt 13 years ago

"Of course their attachment to meat will never let them reason. They are so emotionally dependent on their meat that any attempt to question their diets will be readily dismissed, no matter how much evidence you throw at their faces. "

Sure, considering that your "evidence" amounts to nothing more than solipsism and unscientific propaganda often fabricated by violent terrorist organizations like PETA, ALF/ELF, Greenpeace, H$U$, ETC.

It's amusing to watch vegans engage in such transference, and try to claim that omnivores won't change their lifestyles based on emotional attachments, when the entirety of the vegan lifestyle relies on emotional hysteria and the absurd emotion-based nonsense that animals deserve more rights than human beings.
To say nothing of the bounds vegans will stretch to -like this particular agitprop- to invent false scientific and medical claims to give their lifestyle the illusion of validity.

"I have EXPERIENCED both realities. Most of these people never went one single day without eating flesh and cows secretion. So we obviously cannot expect them to offer any valid point regarding the vegan diet. "

And you're a delusional narcissist who clearly believes everythign they read in the Animal Rights cultist Chick tracts ("cow secretion"), so clearly we can't expect any rational or honest argument from you.

"It is also comical to see their inconsistency and moral schizophrenia regarding the treatment of animals"

You mean like delusional vegans who think they're saving animals, but in reality are doing nothing more than deluding themselves into thinking hundreds of animals don't die in order for crops to be raised, harvested and transported? Like the willfully ignorant sheep they are?

Ooops, hope that didn't shatter your fragile moral hypocrisy.

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

"Not one person has come forward to explain or answer the theory of their perceived anatomical and biological ability to wrestle kill and consume the cow in a field, in its raw state including organs, with their bare hands."

Quote liutenantsalt - "Probably because your argument is idiotic and wholly nonsensical" (it is anything but).

Quote liutenantsalt - Why don't YOU tell us where Early Man found all those vitamins and supplements to make up for the B-12 he supposedly wasn't getting from his natural omnivorous diet? (if you knew the first basic 101 of nutrition, high school bacteriology, evolutionary timelines and events, you would know the answer, I doubt this is rhetorical).

Quite frankly liutenantsalt, everything you have written post your first paragraph is invalidated, because you have FAILED to answer my initial question regarding the cow in a field and how you are anatomically and biologically able (without tools) to cull and consume the cow (without fire).
Not only this, but you have answered a question with a question, because you and I both know, you CANNOT answer the initial question, with the correct spin you personally want to apply to it. You cannot argue scientific fact.

In light of your vitriolic and also frequently aggressive manner to your SUBJECTIVE responses, I don't believe there is really any sufficient ground or value added in continuing this debate.

If you believe more animals die as a result of growing crops, when the mere action of perpetuating the meat industry by consuming meat itself fuels the need for more grazing land and increased production of corn and feed crops, it shows that in the lengthy time it took you to actually respond here, (whilst researching on the internet), you have learnt nothing.

For the record, since you drew a blank on my supposed religious associations. I'd like to point out that I absolutely do not fraternize or involve myself with any of the animal rights movements or societies and related activities that you mentioned.

I have in fact been critical of PETA's activities in the past, because in my mind some of their actions have actions have only threatened to marginalise themselves and degrade peoples general view of any non meat eater.

The only monetary donations I make to animal charities are to ethical dog shelters.

Good luck in answering the initial question with a 'pro-carnivore spin'
lol >> :D <<

(I used to be a carnivore as are my family and many friends [some already dead in their 30's, or long term ill] that I still love and worry for their health as I see them degenerate and age rapidly due to their nutritionally lacking dietary conditioning).

Footnote on UK Obesity impacts (UK Obesity below current U.S levels).
Main contributing factors, saturated fat, processed carbohydrates and lifestyle.

Source:- www.bristol.gov.uk - "Costs are predicted to increase to £6.3 billion by 2015 and to £8.3 billion by 2025. In 2007, it was estimated that the annual cost to NHS Bristol of diseases related to population being overweight and obese was £111.6 million."

[–] GSmith9072 13 years ago

"Quite frankly liutenantsalt, everything you have written post your first paragraph is invalidated, because you have FAILED to answer my initial question regarding the cow in a field and how you are anatomically and biologically able (without tools) to cull and consume the cow (without fire)."

Without tools? Here's another perspective for you, humans are a tool using species, obviously more so than any other animal in the animal kingdom. Is it impossible for you to imagine that we evolved alongside its use, and that primitive and past human societies didn't just start consuming flesh as a hobby? The same thing happens when a species of bird has less of a need for flight until the ability disappears completely in-favor of something else that increases its fitness. Humans use their brains to obtain animal nutrition, and that's been said to have been responsible for our brains' evolution, and lack of it can lead to cognitive decline as suggested by other studies.

"(I used to be a carnivore as are my family and many friends [some already dead in their 30's, or long term ill] that I still love and worry for their health as I see them degenerate and age rapidly due to their nutritionally lacking dietary conditioning)."

Does your family consume healthy non-factory farmed meat and little to know processed and refined grains? However I believe if they only did the latter their health would still rebound. Also, we are omnivores not obligate carnivores, and plants and fruits certainly have antioxidants and other immune system boosting compounds that should exist in the human diet.

Here's the issue I have with people like you; you will obviously dismiss any success stories of meat eaters and the improvement of their health through a non-vegan diet. You have decided that meat is the killer and there's no way around it. I would never tell you to stop doing your veg thing if it works for you, but I bet you would still tell a meat eater that they are not healthy eating meat, or never believe the many testimonies of people who have suffered on a vegan diet. That is ridiculous, and frankly, this is what alienates people from making better decisions about what they eat. When they buy into the obvious BS that you need to be a vegan to achieve optimum health, they don't pay attention because of meat's allure, you know, the allure etched into the human brain because healthy fats are extremely important for cell functioning. This is more than just a greedy desire to consume something unhealthy. People need to abandon that delusional and elitist mindset.

BUGS

[–] andythaler 13 years ago

>> Here's the issue I have with people like you; you will obviously dismiss any success stories of meat eaters and the improvement of their health through a non-vegan diet. You have decided that meat is the killer and there's no way around it. <<

OK, here's the catch. Bruce Campbell started out as a meat-and-dairy-farmer's son, studied nutrition, believed in the might of the all-saving (animal) protein and went to the thirld world to bring them good nutrition (meat & dairy).

Only when he did his studies there, did he find out, and confirm over his academic career in various other studies, the most prominent among them the "China study", that if a people moves away from a plant-based diet to an animal-product-based diet, that illnesses like cancer, heart disease and diabetes begin to occur.

That is what the China study is about - those people in the study that consume animal products have the same diseases like the American average, those who don't, don't. And before you start that Chinese are different from Americans, so that the results do not hold true, there are other studies conducted with Americans that showed impressively how people with severe heart disease could be cured from it by adopting a whole-food, low-fat plant based diet.

But don't let the facts come in your way...

[–] GSmith9072 13 years ago

"That is what the China study is about - those people in the study that consume animal products have the same diseases like the American average, those who don't, don't."

I'm not understanding why you quoted that quote of mine because it basically argues with what you are saying. There are cultures who have little to no incidence of these diseases and they consume plenty of animal fat. You are also under the impression that 'correlation equals causation' which is of course, not true. It's not as though the populations studied have identical diets, except one includes more animal fats. Also, none of the cultures studied are entirely vegan anyway. With the information presented, it seems rather obtuse to me to come to the conclusion that a complete 'plant-based diet' is the ultimate diet. You are now willing to forfeit all animal fat health benefits for a correlational study, despite much evidence as well as anecdotal evidence that healthy meat is very good for you. If I was one of those people who improved my health with animal fat, I wouldn't buy that stuff for 2 seconds, and I shouldn't.

"there are other studies conducted with Americans that showed impressively how people with severe heart disease could be cured from it by adopting a whole-food, low-fat plant based diet."

And what were these people eating? Where they eating a healthy diet and non-processed foods before they got their heart disease? I would put money on not. A whole food diet would benefit people certainly, especially if balanced properly. But for the long term and for optimum health, animal fat should be included. No one is saying plants are not healthy, but in my opinion for most people or the human species, we were meant to consume unprocessed food and healthy animal fat, and that should be the default diet for us.

BUGS

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

Agreed, Google "Bill Clinton", scroll down, enough said....

[–] jabberttp 12 years ago

OK, here's the catch. Bruce Campbell started out as a

Bruce Campbell? You mean this Bruce Campbell? ;-)

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0132257/

Seriously I've read this entire thread up to 6/3/12 and we've got basically 2 camps: the whole foods plant-based camp with a couple prolific posters - and andythaler lol

And we've got the some meat is good camp, again with 2 prolific posters.

Here's what I see. The plant-based camp in general has Forks over Knives, The China Study, and a coupla other research-based peer-reviewed studies BACKING what they say.

The meat is good camp has anecdotal evidence and their words. Why don't I see links truly backing what the meat is good camp is saying?

Which African tribes or Asian tribes? What studies are there that back this?

Here's what I see. The meat is good camp's anecdotal evidence is basically from folks who moderate the intake of their meat and do lots of other *beep* in their lives that is healthy.

In The China Study itself they compared 5% of animal protein diets to 20% of animal protein diets.

And the 5% was time and time again proven to be beneficial to health.

That is moderation, something the meat is good camp IS doing.

Personally I'm transitioning to a "nearly" vegetarian diet, with occasional meat (usually chicken) and fish, and a little bit of dairy products.

Once I master that, I will probably transition a bit more. As my "nearly" vegetarian diet is a whole lot healthier than what I used to eat.

If cutting down to nearly nothing animal-based proteins can be shown to reverse heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and a few other diseases I'm not mentioning here, why not?

If the meat is good camp disagrees, please provide peer-reviewed study links that back what you are saying (rawfoodsos need not apply).

Thanks for reading,

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

GSmith9072: "Here's another perspective for you, humans are a tool using species, obviously more so than any other animal in the animal kingdom. Is it impossible for you to imagine that we evolved alongside its use, and that primitive and past human societies didn't just start consuming flesh as a hobby?"

Feelgoodagain: The way in which you have posed this in literal terms, are you asking the question or confirming your theory as proven?. You don't seem very certain. [My response is below] Whereas the 'cow in a field' theory is 'completely proven'. Because TODAY you yourself can go into a field, try and consume that live cow in that field, with nothing but your bare evolved physical and physiological form (with the tools evolution has equipped you with, i.e fingernails and short canine teeth) and FAIL miserably.

"Is it impossible for you to imagine that we evolved alongside its use"

I can imagine that we we evolved alongside the use of tools yes, that is proven. But are you suggesting that in the 'scientifically proven' 128,000 years that modern human has utilized fire in some form (anything older is pure speculation of scholars) that we have actually "evolved" in such a short period of time to consume burnt/overheated animal flesh?. An evolutionary partial blink of an eye?.
Birds took 450 M years to evolve in their ability to fly, are you actually suggesting we have evolved from Herbivore to fully blow Omnivore in circa 128,000 years?. This is more than a Darwin moment!!!! When humans can't even process a predominantly raw meat diet today, like most Omnivores do!!

When Bonobo apes are 95-98% human DNA and predominantly consume greens, pith and fruit?. Not to mention the staggering muscular mass of the Gorilla.....Oh no this must be a miracle of plant based consumption madness! Green foods = Muscle fibre retention!?!?!

"Humans use their brains to obtain animal nutrition, and that's been said to have been responsible for our brains' evolution."

Once again, you do not seem overly certain of your theory.....

So what you are actually suggesting is that our primitive ancestors, with little or no knowledge of human physiology at the time, were in fact blessed with inate nutritional foresight?.

They certainly had little or no knowledge that in fact animal fat is solid at 37 degrees at blood/body temperature, that animal fat enlarges the adiposite cells and sticks there (fat people that eat animal fat, that's the animal's fat stored that you can see), that animal fat deposits uric acid crystals at joint interfaces, that animal fat leeches calcium through the uric tract, that animal fat causes release of carcinogenic compounds in the liver bile process and so on and so forth?.
Would they have forseen that today, the most dabilitating illness in the USA today is Stroke, that 1 in 3 would be clinically obese in the US and 1 in 4 in the UK TODAY?.

No - The only truly great evolution is one that pays the Gigantic subsidies placed on the production and retail of animal products and related by-products in the form of the FDA USDA marketing machine, that reaches every man, woman and child (even the unborn). Even Jamie Oliver, who tried to clean up the U.S primary school menu structure and replace it with slightly less 'bad for you'animal products, with more of an emphasis on green food consumption, was blocked every step of the way by a system tied up in red tape bureaucracy and profiteering, at the expense of kids hooked on low quality meat cuts destined for dog food, coloured milk, addictive cane sugar (as addictive as narcotics) and plastic cheese products...I digress.

"and lack of it can lead to cognitive decline as suggested by other studies."

That's funny, the only people I know of, or heard about that have declined or lost motor function all consumed some form of animal product in their diet....can you show me the demographical independent study or University paper (please don't show me another FDA funded thesis or study, so far the ones I have been quoted all have links in some way to FDA funding) then I can comment.

"Does your family consume healthy non-factory farmed meat and little to know processed and refined grains? However I believe if they only did the latter their health would still rebound. Also, we are omnivores not obligate carnivores, and plants and fruits certainly have antioxidants and other immune system boosting compounds that should exist in the human diet"

You believe?. So there is no proven study to back your statement up regarding non-factory meat?. Agreed, we obviously have the ability to consume tiny amounts of meat in the event of hardship...but this goes back to the evolutionary timescale of fire used in cooking, which has allowed us to overcome and given us the ability to consume meat in greater quantities with a more limited, but not exclusively reduced risk of bacterial infection.
Obviously raw meat does the human body harm over time and harbours unpalatable and even deadly bacterium (again proven to this very day!!). Control of fire and heat has actually allowed an entire industry that is a wordwide menace to evolve and thrive.

"Here's the issue I have with people like you; you will obviously dismiss any success stories of meat eaters "

Is this the success story you refer to:

- 143,579 people die each year from Stroke the most disabaling illness in the USA Source: strokecentre.org

- In the USA today 795,000 people suffer a stroke in the U.S, Circa 600,000 of these are first time attacks!!! Source: strokecentre.org,

- USA 1 in 3 clinically obese today - clinical fact

- UK 1 in 4 clinically obese today - clinical fact

- The rainforests are being destroyed at a frightening rate due to demand for grain stocks to feed animals and the global increased demand from India and China.

- 100,000's of Africans are starving as a result of ongoing drought for many years, yet no country can find grain stores enough to feed them all for years to come. We have seen what a diet wholly sustained on "zero nutrition" McDonalds can do (Super Size Me).

and so on....

IS THIS THE EVOLUTIONARY SUCCESS YOU REFER TO?.

WAIT, MAYBE YOU REFER TO THE ANTI CANCER AND OTHER SUCH DRUGS AVAILABLE TO CONTROL THE SPIRALLING LEVELS OF NON-COMMUNICABLE DISEASE WE HAVE TODAY?. I ADMIT YOU WERE RIGHT, IT'S AN EVOLUTIONARY MIRACLE OF MANKIND!! WE ARE NOW LIVING LONGER, BUT HAVE A CONCENTRATION OF NON COMMUNICABLE DISEASES....AS PER THE RECENT W.H.O REPORT.

PREVENTION = $0
CURE = $99999999999

"The Health Conspiracy" Author Joe Collier UK.

Quite frankly your reference to an elitist mindset I find laughable....when I actually try and help those suffering around me, giving blood, advice and supporting charities also....I am a humanist, not a stark raving hardcore animal rights, tree hugging sandal wearing lunatic.
I have friends and family that are meat and dairy consumers, they have seen that a life without it can be achieved and then some (215lbs of muscular build supported on a 100% plant diet)....as you say, it's up to them if they decide to listen to myself, or the people behind the meat and dairy industry, only interested in ££$$ and sales statistics.
But as I mentioned before, it is a governments perogative to secure recompence for subsidies paid in the promotion and proliferation of what supports the meat and dairy industries and as I see it, one of poitnless human and animal suffering alike.

Let's "re-evolve" to Einsteins observations on the subject.

[–] GSmith9072 13 years ago

"You don't seem very certain."

That's the difference between you and I. While you've decided that your claims are infallible, I keep my mind open to new discoveries and scientific evidence. There is an extremely VAST amount of scientific conclusions and nutritional theories that contradict each other. I'm simply arguing what makes sense to me with the information given, however there is always a chance that things may change in the future. One example, I actually used to believe that veganism was relatively healthy and that too much animal fat caused obesity.

"Because TODAY you yourself can go into a field, try and consume that live cow in that field, with nothing but your bare evolved physical and physiological form (with the tools evolution has equipped you with, i.e fingernails and short canine teeth) and FAIL miserably."

I love how you use a cow, and not a chicken, for you see, I could do that with a chicken. Starve me for a little while out of the comforts of civilization and I probably would.

"that we have actually "evolved" in such a short period of time to consume burnt/overheated animal flesh?"

Who said anything about burnt? The most healthy way to consume meat is near raw, which of course, we also don't culturally do too often (and we only eat muscle meat mostly). Another abandonment of what is natural for us to eat.

"are you actually suggesting we have evolved from Herbivore to fully blow Omnivore in circa 128,000 years?."

Who said I was suggesting that we were herbivores 128,000 years ago?

"So what you are actually suggesting is that our primitive ancestors, with little or no knowledge of human physiology at the time, were in fact blessed with inate nutritional foresight?."

Hold your horses, all I meant with that statement, by 'obtaining nutrition' is that it is an obvious trait of the homo species to use their brains (tools and techniques) to get meat and eat it. It makes sense to me that alongside the evolution of tool use we lost some more primal abilities to kill like a obligate carnivore does.

"That's funny, the only people I know of, or heard about that have declined or lost motor function all consumed some form of animal product in their diet..."

What's even funnier is that you are again, ONLY seeing the meat in these people's diets and not anything else. I think it's safe to say that alongside meat, processed grains are just as, if not more, popular in the American diet. Especially now, since people are under the illusion that 'fat' makes you fat.

"So there is no proven study to back your statement up regarding non-factory meat?."

Probably not, aside from anecdotal evidence. I suppose that to you, who WANTS to believe that meat is evil, will then dismiss it entirely despite the logic behind it. This is why people here think you have an agenda.

"The rainforests are being destroyed at a frightening rate due to demand for grain stocks to feed animals and the global increased demand from India and China."

This has nothing to do with nutrition at all, and yet you still want people to believe you are just a 'humanist'. I'm not even sure why you listed the rest of those statistics, as if they are supposed to be convincing me anything about meat at all. You point out to me people are obese, so what? The human diet has changed significantly since before these illnesses you speak of have been prominent. Even more important, MEAT IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

"We have seen what a diet wholly sustained on "zero nutrition" McDonalds can do (Super Size Me)."

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh...

WAIT, MAYBE YOU REFER TO THE ANTI CANCER AND OTHER SUCH DRUGS AVAILABLE TO CONTROL THE SPIRALLING LEVELS OF NON-COMMUNICABLE DISEASE WE HAVE TODAY?. I ADMIT YOU WERE RIGHT, IT'S AN EVOLUTIONARY MIRACLE OF MANKIND!! WE ARE NOW LIVING LONGER, BUT HAVE A CONCENTRATION OF NON COMMUNICABLE DISEASES....AS PER THE RECENT W.H.O REPORT.

I am a humanist, not a stark raving hardcore animal rights, tree hugging sandal wearing lunatic.

You are trying to disprove me of something here aren't you? Not aid my arguments?

BUGS

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

“You don't seem very certain."

GSmith9072 said: That's the difference between you and I. While you've decided that your claims are infallible, I keep my mind open to new discoveries and scientific evidence. There is an extremely VAST amount of scientific conclusions and nutritional theories that contradict each other. I'm simply arguing what makes sense to me with the information given, however there is always a chance that things may change in the future. One example, I actually used to believe that veganism was relatively healthy and that too much animal fat caused obesity.

– I haven’t mentioned my theory is infallible, you have just admitted that you are arguing subjectively, does that truly constitute a platform for debate?. Where are the facts you are making vague reference to?. I am also open to every conceivable theories and available nutritional and demographic statistical data, hence my err toward a plant based diet. How have you extrapolated the facts and data from your viewpoint?. Or have you only absorbed and aligned the data that suits your requirement of consumption?.

"Because TODAY you yourself can go into a field, try and consume that live cow in that field, with nothing but your bare evolved physical and physiological form (with the tools evolution has equipped you with, i.e fingernails and short canine teeth) and FAIL miserably."

GSmith9072 said: I love how you use a cow, and not a chicken, for you see, I could do that with a chicken. Starve me for a little while out of the comforts of civilization and I probably would.

– Do you think you could consume chicken in its raw form for the rest of your days (because remember) yousaid “we are Omnivores” and Omnivores have the ability to consume and effectively digest raw meats and offal....I can guarantee you will fall ill. I think the point is, we aren’t starving, and we do ‘consider’ ourselves civilised. If that grain or land they use to grow it could be used to feed the people who really are starving, the world would be a better place (although possibly even more overcrowded).....I’m not intentionally crying conspiracy due to overcrowding now!

"that we have actually "evolved" in such a short period of time to consume burnt/overheated animal flesh?"

GSmith9072 said: Who said anything about burnt? The most healthy way to consume meat is near raw, which of course, we also don't culturally do too often (and we only eat muscle meat mostly). Another abandonment of what is natural for us to eat.

– Anything heated above 200 degrees C will change in its chemical molecular composition. Near raw meat....that maybe ok ONLY if the animal is gutted in a particular method, whereby that meat was not tainted in the gutting process (which is hard to control)....failing that, the gut lining and offal can pose a risk of bacterial contamination....you don’t want to be poisoning yourself now do you....
Quote: “Another abandonment of what is natural for us to eat” – You mean we were “meant” to eat nearly raw meat?. Like true Omnivores that we aren’t?. Can you imagine the impact on Hospital Gastroenterology wards?.

"are you actually suggesting we have evolved from Herbivore to fully blow Omnivore in circa 128,000 years?."

GSmith9072 said: Who said I was suggesting that we were herbivores 128,000 years ago?.

– Sorry I wasn’t quoting you on this, I was merely quoting logical scientific fact.

"So what you are actually suggesting is that our primitive ancestors, with little or no knowledge of human physiology at the time, were in fact blessed with inate nutritional foresight?."

GSmith9072 said: Hold your horses, all I meant with that statement, by 'obtaining nutrition' is that it is an obvious trait of the homo species to use their brains (tools and techniques) to get meat and eat it. It makes sense to me that alongside the evolution of tool use we lost some more primal abilities to kill like a obligate carnivore does.

– I don’t think we have lost the ability to kill, we have merely had the task outsourced for us (as victims of mass consumerism).....I believe we have gained a deeper knowledge through science and other data sets (China Study for example) to make informed decisions as a highly intelligent species. The trouble being that in the majority, as a society of mass consumerism and capitalism, many have lost their ability to make informed choices and rely on what they hear and are told (NHS, government dieticians, media and such like)...subsidies have to be paid.

"That's funny, the only people I know of, or heard about that have declined or lost motor function all consumed some form of animal product in their diet..."

GSmith9072 said: What's even funnier is that you are again, ONLY seeing the meat in these people's diets and not anything else. I think it's safe to say that alongside meat, processed grains are just as, if not more, popular in the American diet. Especially now, since people are under the illusion that 'fat' makes you fat.

– I did actually allude to the fact that grains, processed foods, cane sugar laden junk and dairy are all part to blame.

"So there is no proven study to back your statement up regarding non-factory meat?."

GSmith9072 said: Probably not, aside from anecdotal evidence. I suppose that to you, who WANTS to believe that meat is evil, will then dismiss it entirely despite the logic behind it. This is why people here think you have an agenda.

– If you can come up with an independent study to back up your findings, then I will be more than open minded about it. From what you say, you might be hard pushed to find something.....similarly the Blood Type Diet theory, where this was never Double Blind Trialled, therefore does not hold water.

"The rainforests are being destroyed at a frightening rate due to demand for grain stocks to feed animals and the global increased demand from India and China."

GSmith9072 said: This has nothing to do with nutrition at all, and yet you still want people to believe you are just a 'humanist'. I'm not even sure why you listed the rest of those statistics, as if they are supposed to be convincing me anything about meat at all. You point out to me people are obese, so what? The human diet has changed significantly since before these illnesses you speak of have been prominent. Even more important, MEAT IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

– what you mentioned was a “Sucess Story” I outlined what success stories the human move to a mainly meat diet has had, is this something that disturbs you?. I would suggest, being an intelligent human being, it is something you are all too aware of.
Quote: “people are obese, so what” – I should really rest my case right here.

"We have seen what a diet wholly sustained on "zero nutrition" McDonalds can do (Super Size Me)."

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh...

– “meat, dairy, cane sugar, heavily processed grains, overheated food, hydrogenated fats. Watch the film. Titled “Supersize Me”.

________________________________________
WAIT, MAYBE YOU REFER TO THE ANTI CANCER AND OTHER SUCH DRUGS AVAILABLE TO CONTROL THE SPIRALLING LEVELS OF NON-COMMUNICABLE DISEASE WE HAVE TODAY?. I ADMIT YOU WERE RIGHT, IT'S AN EVOLUTIONARY MIRACLE OF MANKIND!! WE ARE NOW LIVING LONGER, BUT HAVE A CONCENTRATION OF NON COMMUNICABLE DISEASES....AS PER THE RECENT W.H.O REPORT.
________________________________________

________________________________________
I am a humanist, not a stark raving hardcore animal rights, tree hugging sandal wearing lunatic.
________________________________________

GSmith9072 said: You are trying to disprove me of something here aren't you? Not aid my arguments?

– Very good, I think I may have proven you have a sense of humour. I assume the World Health Organisation report passed you by.

[–] GSmith9072 13 years ago

"– I haven’t mentioned my theory is infallible, you have just admitted that you are arguing subjectively"

No. Re-read my post. I'm always phrasing myself with the knowledge that nothing we're discussing is anywhere near conclusive, especially when discussing evolution. We find out new things and discover new fossils all the time, but some of it just may never be discovered. Not all my evidence needs to be 'correct', but I'm certainly seeing far more evidence for human's being omnivorous than being herbivorous. That's basically the only thing I'm 'certain' of.

"Where are the facts you are making vague reference to?"

They are outlined in all of my replies.

Do you think you could consume chicken in its raw form for the rest of your days (because remember) yousaid “we are Omnivores” and Omnivores have the ability to consume and effectively digest raw meats and offal....I can guarantee you will fall ill. I think the point is, we aren’t starving, and we do ‘consider’ ourselves civilised. If that grain or land they use to grow it could be used to feed the people who really are starving, the world would be a better place (although possibly even more overcrowded).....I’m not intentionally crying conspiracy due to overcrowding now!

Why do you find it impossible to separate ethics from nutrition? This is a logical downfall. It doesn't matter if I agree with you or not, we are talking about what diet a human is meant to eat. Whether or not we should have a moral obligation to give up our optimum diet is another discussion entirely, and frankly my opinion on that is, if we are required to give up our diets, why stop anywhere else?
About your raw chicken, I would have much doubt that -I- would be able to go from eating cooked meats my whole life to eating raw. I tried supplementing my diet once with too much coconut oil and I had horrible indigestion. That doesn't make it unhealthy.

"You mean we were “meant” to eat nearly raw meat?. Like true Omnivores that we aren’t?. Can you imagine the impact on Hospital Gastroenterology wards?."

Yes, we currently do have a large impact in said wards. If we were eating the diet we should eat, I think they would lose business. Frankly I haven't done too much research on bacterial contamination and when humans started cooking their food, but it sounds to me to be a pretty poor excuse to call humans herbivores. When we classify animals as a herbivore or carnivore, it isn't the 'bacteria' we are thinking of that would make a herbivore unable to consume flesh. Frankly when herbivorous animals occasionally consume animal sources, that is not a concern. Iguanas are complete vegans, but some owners had wrongly fed them live mice. The 'bacteria' is not a problem, the problem is that it taxes their kidneys.

It makes perfect sense to me that humans evolved cooking their food. There ARE cultures who do eat raw meat also. Bad bacteria is also far more prolific in factory farmed meats, as you would know that consuming raw milk from a factory farmed cow would be a death wish. Obviously there is some emotion in your thoughts thinking humans should only eat plants, and you're nit-picking everything to try and 'prove' humans are not omnivorous by comparing the modern domesticated human to purely wild animals, despite the obvious fact that early humans hunted and consumed meat. You already used the manipulated reasoning that we cannot kill a cow with our bare hands.

"I don’t think we have lost the ability to kill, we have merely had the task outsourced for us (as victims of mass consumerism)"

I'm not sure what this reply has to do with what I said, but now it sounds like you're admitting our previous omnivorous nature.

".....I believe we have gained a deeper knowledge through science and other data sets (China Study for example) to make informed decisions as a highly intelligent species."

One fault that you make here is that you are associating 'intelligent' with benevolence.

"I did actually allude to the fact that grains, processed foods, cane sugar laden junk and dairy are all part to blame."

However, while processed foods and high consumption of grains and sugars did not always exist, meat consumption has. So if you admit this is a problem, you really need to reexamine your position. Another thing you need to do is emphasize this more, if you are a true humanist, because I can assure you this is the killer. Meat can be healthy, and is often the only whole food source people really want to eat! Our bodies were never accustomed to high grain consumption and certainly not altered food products. Shouldn't you focus on that more? Especially since you are fighting a losing battle trying to get all people off meat. I think we do have an obligation to choose meat that was ethically raised, and many argue that grass-fed beef is also far more sustainable. When I see it this way, I know that this is how pushing veganism of vegetarianism can be more destructive. People ignore such radical view points. Eating healthy meat just makes more sense, it encourages factory farms to compete with real farmers (instead of the accomplishment of 'never having the animal existing'), and people might stay out of the hospital if they knew just how unhealthy '100 calorie packs' are.

"If you can come up with an independent study to back up your findings, then I will be more than open minded about it."

I think it's more important to use common sense over studies, even though of course they are essential. Frankly I wasn't there to view these studies, and many studies have been proved wrong. I don't think there is much real evidence on either side. What's more important to me is when a scientific study finds strong evidence that something ISN'T valid.

"– “meat, dairy, cane sugar, heavily processed grains, overheated food, hydrogenated fats. Watch the film. Titled “Supersize Me”."

I abhor Super Size Me. That's why I replied that way. Also, I it just shows how you think, that you will watch a man:

1. Eat more food per day then he ever had in his life.
2. Refuse to exercise properly
3. Refuse to drink water if it isn't on the menu at McDonalds.
4. Use an undisclosed amount of ketchup and drink who knows how much soft drinks per day.

And make any type of conclusion about food based on this!!!. We have no evidence about anything that caused Spurlock's rapid weight gain and decline in health, but I'd make a good as hell guess that it was the huge amounts of sugar, salt, and processing. Someone countered the SSM experiment with losing weight doing the same thing, although they exercised and took off the bread. Go figure.

BUGS

[–] feelgoodagain 13 years ago

Very recent CNN report August 2011, on the raptures of an animal fat diet starring Bill Clinton:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcasts/gupta/site/2011/08/29/sgmd.last.heart.attack.cnn

"– I haven’t mentioned that my theory is infallible, you have just admitted that you are arguing subjectively"

GSmith9072 No. Re-read my post. I'm always phrasing myself with the knowledge that nothing we're discussing is anywhere near conclusive, especially when discussing evolution. We find out new things and discover new fossils all the time, but some of it just may never be discovered. Not all my evidence needs to be 'correct', but I'm certainly seeing far more evidence for human's being omnivorous than being herbivorous. That's basically the only thing I'm 'certain' of.

response -So as I said, you are arguing on a subjective platform....what I am referring to, is a scientifically proven fact that fire usage, whereby it was proven that animal flesh was consumed and carbon dated to 128,000 years ago and that has been recorded as scientific fact.
In physiological terms we are much more like a true herbivore than we are a true carnivore, or omnivore.

"Where are the facts you are making vague reference to?"

GSmith9072 They are outlined in all of my replies.

response -That is the vague response I was expecting that suits your weakening argument, to satisfy yourself on a subjective level, that what you have been told and practice is correct. Where are the sources references of information, other than those figments and creations of your imagination that err you to believe we are obligate Omnivores?, if only to satisfy and justify your lust for rotting animal flesh and fats which remain solid at 37 degrees of human blood temperature?.

________________________________________
Do you think you could consume chicken in its raw form for the rest of your days (because remember) you said “we are Omnivores” and Omnivores have the ability to consume and effectively digest raw meats and offal....I can guarantee you will fall ill. I think the point is, we aren’t starving, and we do ‘consider’ ourselves civilised. If that grain or land they use to grow it could be used to feed the people who really are starving, the world would be a better place (although possibly even more overcrowded).....I’m not intentionally crying conspiracy due to overcrowding now!
________________________________________

GSmith9072 Why do you find it impossible to separate ethics from nutrition? This is a logical downfall. It doesn't matter if I agree with you or not, we are talking about what diet a human is meant to eat. Whether or not we should have a moral obligation to give up our optimum diet is another discussion entirely, and frankly my opinion on that is, if we are required to give up our diets, why stop anywhere else?
About your raw chicken, I would have much doubt that -I- would be able to go from eating cooked meats my whole life to eating raw. I tried supplementing my diet once with too much coconut oil and I had horrible indigestion. That doesn't make it unhealthy.

response -Agreed let’s remove morals from this.

You seemed to have tried initially to evade the question, upon realising it would be obvious that you had actually omitted to respond to the initial question, you have atempted to paraphrase your response later in a way to suit your own belief system over fact.

Quote: “About your raw chicken, I would have much doubt that -I- would be able to go from eating cooked meats my whole life to eating raw”

So what you mean is, that if you had eaten raw meat from birth that you would be able to now consume a 100% raw meat diet as an adult?! Wow that is rather shocking, people that have eaten uncured or even undercooked meat have fallen seriously ill, or died at an earlier than average age. The argument for raw japanese fish, is that the obvious problem with eating raw fish, of course, is that it must be really fresh to avoid the risk of food poisoning. Generally most Japanese dishes are not Raw Fish.

"You mean we were “meant” to eat nearly raw meat?. Like true Omnivores that we aren’t?. Can you imagine the impact on Hospital Gastroenterology wards?."

GSmith9072 Yes, we currently do have a large impact in said wards. If we were eating the diet we should eat, I think they would lose business. Frankly I haven't done too much research on bacterial contamination and when humans started cooking their food, but it sounds to me to be a pretty poor excuse to call humans herbivores. When we classify animals as a herbivore or carnivore, it isn't the 'bacteria' we are thinking of that would make a herbivore unable to consume flesh. Frankly when herbivorous animals occasionally consume animal sources, that is not a concern. Iguanas are complete vegans, but some owners had wrongly fed them live mice. The 'bacteria' is not a problem, the problem is that it taxes their kidneys.

GSmith9072 It makes perfect sense to me that humans evolved cooking their food. There ARE cultures who do eat raw meat also. Bad bacteria is also far more prolific in factory farmed meats, as you would know that consuming raw milk from a factory farmed cow would be a death wish. Obviously there is some emotion in your thoughts thinking humans should only eat plants, and you're nit-picking everything to try and 'prove' humans are not omnivorous by comparing the modern domesticated human to purely wild animals, despite the obvious fact that early humans hunted and consumed meat. You already used the manipulated reasoning that we cannot kill a cow with our bare hands.

response -Quote: “Yes, we currently do have a large impact in said wards. If we were eating the diet we should eat, I think they would lose business”
I am more than fully aware of the impact the current human dietary lifestyle is having on hospital wards and what huge revenues these create for big pharma. Your response above aligns with my thoughts entirely....Your omission in your research perhaps is the missing link (excuse the pun) that would prove to be the most logical progression in your misunderstanding of what truly constitutes the correct human diet. In actual fact, perhaps you could correlate this shortfall you mention to your passage I quoted directly above.

Quote “You already used the manipulated reasoning that we cannot kill a cow with our bare hands.”

Can I just ask how this is anything other than logical reasoning, based on our physiological and physical evolution?.

"I don’t think we have lost the ability to kill, we have merely had the task outsourced for us (as victims of mass consumerism)"

GSmith9072 I'm not sure what this reply has to do with what I said, but now it sounds like you're admitting our previous omnivorous nature.

response -Well simply put, man has killed man and beast in protection of his own territory since man has existed. But as I have already mentioned, where man has killed for food, it does not mean that this was based on a knowledge of human physiology, but more likely a primitive curiosity....this does not mean to say our ancestors were nutritionists.

".....I believe we have gained a deeper knowledge through science and other data sets (China Study for example) to make informed decisions as a highly intelligent species."

GSmith9072 One fault that you make here is that you are associating 'intelligent' with benevolence.

If you are referring to animal rights, then your earlier reference to the fact that you understand the current impact the western diet is having on its societies from hospital admissions, then you have contradicted yourself.

"I did actually allude to the fact that grains, processed foods, cane sugar laden junk and dairy are all part to blame."

GSmith9072 However, while processed foods and high consumption of grains and sugars did not always exist, meat consumption has. So if you admit this is a problem, you really need to reexamine your position. Another thing you need to do is emphasize this more, if you are a true humanist, because I can assure you this is the killer. Meat can be healthy, and is often the only whole food source people really want to eat! Our bodies were never accustomed to high grain consumption and certainly not altered food products. Shouldn't you focus on that more? Especially since you are fighting a losing battle trying to get all people off meat. I think we do have an obligation to choose meat that was ethically raised, and many argue that grass-fed beef is also far more sustainable. When I see it this way, I know that this is how pushing veganism of vegetarianism can be more destructive. People ignore such radical view points. Eating healthy meat just makes more sense, it encourages factory farms to compete with real farmers (instead of the accomplishment of 'never having the animal existing'), and people might stay out of the hospital if they knew just how unhealthy '100 calorie packs' are.

response -I think you just leapt on and manipulated what I said to your own ends, as I never quantified my response in terms of “all part to blame”.....it is all part of the same equation to a certain extent......pre war societies were much healthier as they actually consumed a more balanced diet higher in grains, pulses, legumes etc, but post war, meat and dairy consumption increased tenfold, add to that the decreasing mineral content of soils (due to overfarming for cattle grains), increase in processed and refined foods, there is your recipe for disaster.
How a plant based, Vegan or Vegetarian diet can be more destructive in ‘REALITY’ I cannot even begin to comprehend....leaving the ethical side out of what constitutes a humane death, grass fed or factory.
Having said that, I share a smilar viewpoint that factory farms are extremely polluting and destructive to earth ecology. You only have to look at how the huge slurry farms of superfarms are already threatening clean drinking water for millions of American citizens. It is evil evil evil industry fuelled by greed and ignorance of the highest order.

"If you can come up with an independent study to back up your findings, then I will be more than open minded about it."

GSmith9072 I think it's more important to use common sense over studies, even though of course they are essential. Frankly I wasn't there to view these studies, and many studies have been proved wrong. I don't think there is much real evidence on either side. What's more important to me is when a scientific study finds strong evidence that something ISN'T valid.

response -I suppose it was actually more simplistic to respond in this way than to find a study that suits your needs...as there are plenty out there using FDA USDA sponsored funding.

"– “meat, dairy, cane sugar, heavily processed grains, overheated food, hydrogenated fats. Watch the film. Titled “Supersize Me”."

GSmith9072 I abhor Super Size Me. That's why I replied that way. Also, I it just shows how you think, that you will watch a man:

1. Eat more food per day then he ever had in his life.
2. Refuse to exercise properly
3. Refuse to drink water if it isn't on the menu at McDonalds.
4. Use an undisclosed amount of ketchup and drink who knows how much soft drinks per day.

And make any type of conclusion about food based on this!!!. We have no evidence about anything that caused Spurlock's rapid weight gain and decline in health, but I'd make a good as hell guess that it was the huge amounts of sugar, salt, and processing. Someone countered the SSM experiment with losing weight doing the same thing, although they exercised and took off the bread. Go figure.

Mr Smith here is a website page I am putting together on the subject: http://www.feelgoodagain.co.uk/videos%20and%20media.htm

response -Quote: “Yes, we currently do have a large impact in said wards. If we were eating the diet we should eat, I think they would lose business”....are you sure you don’t agree with at least some of this film?.

I think he was trying to prove a point, if the same experiment was undertaken at a Vegan restaurant the results would have been starkly different. Even if he wasn’t consuming water, as vegan foods hold alot more water, whereas McDonalds food is chemically altered, processed rubbish of zero nutritional value, including meat (a poor source of protein) as meat (or animal muscle) begins to rot the moment the animal dies and taints the meat with uric acid through excretion of adrenaline into the bloodstream, of which the meat is broken down into carcinogenic compounds and acids in the bile liver secretion and digestion process.

What you mention in the last paragraph constitutes the Atkins Diet, which has been regarded as dangerous. Do you not even consider the clinical impact of Lipemia when you consider a statement like your last?. Animal fat is seen as a foreign invader by the body, the next thing you will be telling me that you have not heard of digestive Leukocytosis (Leukocyte Count), seen as an avoidable issue on ingestion of animal fats. Perhaps as you say, you need to do more research, due to the outwardly subjective nature of your attempts to placate your desire for rotting and overheated animal flesh and bodily fats.

GSmith9072 Remember - Good will prevail over the capitalist model of evil, that is so deep rooted in society and driven by the huge meat and dairy industries.

Very recent CNN report August 2011, on the raptures of an animal fat diet starring Bill Clinton:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcasts/gupta/site/2011/08/29/sgmd.last.heart.attack.cnn

I will respond on here as long as I am able to still sign in, because I believe truth and justice for all is a just cause worth spending effort and the little time it took me to reply. I know Mr Clinton, Einstein and all of the amazing HIGHLY QUALIFIED surgeons acting directly against those industries I aforementioned would definitely agree!

[–] GSmith9072 13 years ago

I’m on a very small laptop now so hopefully this isn’t un-concise and I haven’t misrepresented any of the posted links. I can't spell check this fully.

Very recent CNN report August 2011, on the raptures of an animal fat diet starring Bill Clinton:

Again, we are going down this road. Do you actually think posting some slanted 1hr documentary, most likely sponsored by the doctors whose research is cited in this movie, is supposed to convince me of anything other than the reasons why you've come to your conclusions? I even humored you a little and watch about 10 minutes of it and skipped around. Why is it that no one can assess the president's diet or any other person featured with in it? I'm unsurprised by the shallow and non-scientific approach. What I find even more astronomically stupid is the doc's claim that some Mexican and African cultures have virtually no presence of heart disease, and then it goes on to support a VEGAN diet even though these cultures are not vegan! Like hell will I eat salad slop everyday based on that level of disingenuous 'research'. Good for Bill that he can afford to pay genius chefs to make that palatable. :l

what I am referring to, is a scientifically proven fact that fire usage, whereby it was proven that animal flesh was consumed and carbon dated to 128,000 years ago and that has been recorded as scientific fact.

You're right about that, it is proven that fire usage and cooked meat consumption is AT LEAST 128,000 years old.

Where are the sources references of information, other than those figments and creations of your imagination that err you to believe we are obligate Omnivores?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10918988
"A study of human and pre-human diet history shows that for a period of at least 2 million years the human ancestral line had been consuming increasing quantities of meat. During that time, evolutionary selection was in action, adapting our genetic makeup and hence our physiological features to a diet high in lean meat."
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1747-0080.2007.00194.x/fu ll
"Carbohydrates in the modern diet are also very different from those that HGs ate. Today the majority of dietary carbohydrates are derived from processed cereals and can be of high GI. Cereals were seldom eaten by HGs due to the small size of wild seeds and the degree of difficulty in collecting them. It has been argued that the replacement of protein from meat and fish with high-GI carbohydrates from starch and sugars may have implications for insulin resistance (obesity) and the development of type 2 diabetes—a condition unknown in HG societies"

You seemed to have tried initially to evade the question, upon realizing it would be obvious that you had actually omitted to respond to the initial question

I believe humans evolved with cooking meat, even though some people do eat raw:
http://artsci.wustl.edu/~hpontzer/Courses/Wrangham&Conklin-Britain 2003CBP%20Cooking%20as%20a%20Biological%20Trait.pdf
"In particular, many plant foods are too fiber-rich when raw, while most raw meat appears too tough to allow easy chewing. If cooking is indeed obligatory for humans but not for other apes, this means that human biology must have adapted to the ingestion of cooked food."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cooking-up-bigger-bra ins
"And that is exactly what he found in Homo erectus, our ancestor that first appeared 1.6 million to 1.9 million years ago. H. erectus’s brain was 50 percent larger than that of its predecessor, H. habilis, and it experienced the biggest drop in tooth size in human evolution. “There’s no other time that satisfies expectations that we would have for changes in the body that would be accompanied by cooking,” Wrangham says."
"Studies on modern women show that those on a raw vegetarian diet often miss their menstrual periods because of lack of energy."

Guess what, humans did not possess blenders in the paleolithic era. Your questions about humans sustaining themselves on raw meat go both ways. Many also believe that cooking plants also helped up absorb the calories more efficiently, so are you still adverse to the idea that cooking is an essential element to the human condition?

Can I just ask how this is anything other than logical reasoning, based on our physiological and physical evolution?."

Because you are comparing us to animals that do not obtain nutrition like us at all, carnivore or omnivore. Humans are the only of their kind.

it does not mean that this was based on a knowledge of human physiology, but more likely a primitive curiosity....this does not mean to say our ancestors were nutritionists.[quote]

Do you actually believe this?

[quote]If you are referring to animal rights, then your earlier reference to the fact that you understand the current impact the western diet is having on its societies from hospital admissions, then you have contradicted yourself

What? All I did was reply to your statement about hospital wards. I've never said anything about animal rights.

prewar societies were much healthier as they actually consumed a more balanced diet higher in grains, pulses, legumes etc., but post war, meat and dairy consumption increased tenfold

Source? It is a fact that fat consumption has in fact decreased while carb consumption has increased.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5304a3.htm

How a plant based, Vegan or Vegetarian diet can be more destructive in ‘REALITY’ I cannot even begin to comprehend....

Because of the substitution of fats with grains. How also can a diet that includes a large variety of foods including some sources of healthy animal sources be destructive in reality? Especially when animal fat consumption coincided with no heart disease in the original American diet? How can anyone know this and still claim that zero animal fat should pass your lips, without having an alterior motive? I would never tell someone to remove ALL of any real foods from their diet. There is another level of physiological well-being that you ignore in regards to food consumption. There are even people who force vegetarianism on dogs because the negative effects aren’t extremely apparent. What would you tell someone who says a vegan diet isn’t working for them? Try harder? An omnivore wouldn’t ask a vegetarian to stop what was working for them.
Here is another statistic on American food consumption:

Overall, the top food sources of energy, and mean energy intake from each, for the US population, as reported in the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES) 2005-2006, are (NCI, 2010a):
Grain-based desserts (cakes, cookies, doughnuts, pies, crisps, cobblers, and granola bars; 139 calories per day)
Report of the DGAC on the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, 2010 B2-3Part B Section 2: The Total Diet
Yeast breads (129 calories per day)
Chicken and chicken mixed dishes (121 calories per day)
Soda/energy/sports drinks (114 calories per day)
Pizza (98 calories per day)

-- (and now for some reason this computer won’t let me post the link)

I suppose it was actually more simplistic to respond in this way than to find a study that suits your needs...as there are plenty out there using FDA USDA sponsored funding.

I suppose you've got me all figured out xD Or maybe I just didn't want to overly complicate matters by getting in a debate over whose links are reptuable and ect. But I guess that will have to now occur.
There are plenty of studies supporting both sides. Do you honestly think that none of the studies you are citing are funded by lobbyists? Low-fat is the current default way of thinking among most nutritionists. Many companies are pandering to the 'low fat' mentality. Successful lobbying of anti-animal fat persons had resulted in the replacement of foods such as butter and lard with health destroying trans fats from margarine and vegetable oil. Find me one packaged product in a grocery store that does not contain vegetable oil. I'm happy to see this thinking start to turn around.

Mr Smith here is a website page I am putting together on the subject: http://www.feelgoodagain.co.uk/videos%20and%20media.htm

"Ms" x] Although I'm guilty also of thinking you were a guy.

I think he was trying to prove a point, if the same experiment was undertaken at a Vegan restaurant the results would have been starkly different.

I was shown that film, 3 times!! in school (I skipped class on the 3rd showing in college), and you're still going to tell me there's some bias for meat? I also was assigned to write a paper on it, and I totally slammed it. My teacher wanted me to re-write the paper during my lunch period because she thought I didn't write it. LOL.

You’ve missed the point. The way this ‘experiment’ was conducted we can make no real conclusions about it. I’m sure the results would be different at a ‘vegan’ restaurant. One is fast food and the other is excessively health conscious. What we don’t know is why. I’ve already informed you that someone attempted the same experiment and lost weight but drinking water and taking off the bread (this was far less publicized). What is your explanation for that?

“and taints the meat with uric acid through excretion of adrenaline into the bloodstream, of which the meat is broken down into carcinogenic compounds and acids in the bile liver secretion and digestion process.”

Peer reviewed source please.
“What you mention in the last paragraph constitutes the Atkins Diet, which has been regarded as dangerous.”
I’m fully aware that many believe this. I just happen to disagree. I also used to think the Atkins diet was hogwash.
“Very recent CNN report August 2011, on the raptures of an animal fat diet starring Bill Clinton:”
I heard you the first time xD

BUGS

[–] mknockaert 12 years ago

"My teacher wanted me to re-write the paper during my lunch period because she thought I didn't write it. LOL."

are you sure it wasn't because your paper was crap? maybe she was just trying to be polite.

and BUGS? more like elmer fudd

[–] GSmith9072 12 years ago

"are you sure it wasn't because your paper was crap? maybe she was just trying to be polite."

Wow she should be fired for giving me an A+ on a paper she thought was crap.

"and BUGS? more like elmer fudd"

U MAD?

BUGS

[–] GSmith9072 12 years ago

Omg, did you seriously create this account just to tell me that? Surely there must be something on your mind, let's hear it.

BUGS

[–] mknockaert 12 years ago

what's up doc?

yeah i had to join so i could comment. i couldn't help but think of bugs bunny every time you ended a post "BUGS". although your philosophy seems far more inline with that of elmer fudd. but i doubt you were going for a looney tunes reference. although the looney sure sums up a lot of what i have been reading.

i just watched the film after reading through the pages in this section and i just can't understand why you've been so dead set on shooting down any positive feedback for this film - seems you have the hidden agenda here, not "them". i didn't sense any animal rights undertones as you mentioned, and the fact of the crew being vegan doesn't make me suspicious of their motives either, all that tells me is they take this issue seriously as they should if others ought to.

albeit very direct in its message, i felt the film was delivered rather objectively - all things considered. but these issues are not news to me, so i can only imagine how hard it must be for some to swallow who have never researched these topics.

all i can really say is that i've found these comments incredibly entertaining and informative and i am glad you have sparked debate - albeit rather abusive in tone... but then again i'm no role model either. but take it easy on "feelgoodagain", i'm far more deserving of malicious attacks, they have been very patient, intelligent and courteous in getting their point across.

[–] GSmith9072 12 years ago

"i couldn't help but think of bugs bunny every time you ended a post "BUGS"."

I love bugs. I love every kind of bug. So in the signature I just wrote BUGS to replace my Dr.Strangelove quote since that movie confused me anyway :/

"although the looney sure sums up a lot of what i have been reading."

Oooouch.

"i just watched the film after reading through the pages in this section and i just can't understand why you've been so dead set on shooting down any positive feedback for this film - seems you have the hidden agenda here, not "them"."

My agenda is this: All these claims of 'low-fat' and meat being terrible for you are not doing anyone any favors. It misconstrues people's ideas of what is 'healthy', and therefore people ignore health advice altogether, and gorge on unhealthy processed foods and carbohydrates. My own father switched me off of whole milk, slowly switching to lower percentages, until only buying skim. Now I'm ADDICTED to skim milk. Just now recently, I realized one of my problems: skim allows me to drink more milk, ingesting more sugar. Whole milk took less to satisfy me, and fat has been unfairly stigmatized. So when I tried to drink raw milk, I just couldn't keep it up, I hate whole now.

I believe that everyone's body is different. If a vegetarian diet works for you, great. Here's the difference between veg promoters and omnivores: Vegans will NOT except the success stories of omnivores, no matter WHAT. Omnivores, at least the intelligent ones, will recognize that your diet is working, FOR YOU. Not me. They don't give a s_t about your health, when animal rights is involved, and seem to adopt the same level of indigence when that is apparently not involved as well. When people sit there and are disingenuous and lie their asses off to people at health, and these no-nothings look up to them, they are contributing to their suffering. When people's suffering also is costly financially and socially, I take that very seriously! I want to tell people that they have options. That they can eat filling tasty food and feel better about it and not contribute to factory farms. I want people to find common ground. I want the supermarkets to change and for people to care about what they put in their mouths. You know, people outside of 'health freaks'. That's my agenda.

I'm sorry, I do have a rather abusive tone, that's just how I am but this IS the internet. And people on their high horse irritate me.

That's All Folks!

BUGS

[–] mknockaert 12 years ago

That was a really nice response, thanks. it was unfortunate because you were making some good points in most of your posts, but the tone came across aggressive/condescending and thus made people very defensive and lose respect/interest for what you are trying to say. something i know all too well.

i do understand what you are trying to say. that meat itself cannot be held culpable for all societies health problems and not everyone can lead a healthy life eating only plants - but most probably could and it couldn't hurt to try. but these issues are far more complex to cover in an hour and a half documentary with only a small group of experts within a rather limit field of knowledge. but it gets these ideas out there for debate and i think that is the most important aspect of films like these.

i think you need to give ARA/vegans in general a break, you shouldn't generalize based on questionable statements made by individuals. certain intellectuals such as Steve Best make a very convincing/rational case for extending our compassion to non human animals and how it benefits us all. but thats off topic, even though i think morals/ethics must always be considered in all our decisions... just look at where ignoring them have taken us.

[–] GSmith9072 12 years ago

Haha I honestly don't remember what happened in this conversation, so I can't recall my justifications for using that tone of voice, it's far too lengthy to go over. But when it comes to vegans, as said before, I do not believe that they care about people's health if they ignore omnivores who are healthy with their respective diets; that to me is disingenuous. I just don't like dishonesty of those sorts. Good for any vegan/ARA that is more mature than that, although I don't think I've seen one yet. It kind of defeats the purpose of their philosophies. It's just kind of shocking to me that anyone would recommend complete abstinence from any animal products, even ones that don't involve cruelty, as if meat/dairy/eggs are cyanide. I can't see the justification for that. I'm interested in what's feasible for the population. Both sides need to find common ground or nothing will change.

BUGS

[–] mike12348 12 years ago

I do not believe that they care about people's health if they ignore omnivores who are healthy with their respective diets; that to me is disingenuous

I completely agree with this. I do not understand why some vegans can not just accept the fact that eating meat works for some people. Like I've seen you say, a diet of plants AND meat can be good for you, but the most important thing is to get rid of sugars, grains, and processed crap. My mother was able to take less pain pills for her arthritis when I convinced her to drop the *beep* food and eat more meat. This doctor also seemed to have success, on a much larger scale:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc
I wish they could just go on with their lives without constantly attacking anyone who eats meat because it's somehow "unhealthy" for us.

[–] GSmith9072 12 years ago

Great link!

BUGS

[–] teapee28 13 years ago

What is your view on sushi? I'm curious to see your answer for that. It is eaten raw. Some meats like venison can be eaten raw if at the right temperature. Also many people can not digest certain foods, but that doesn't mean it's not natural for other humans to eat.

Dogs and cats are very much born carnivores, yet they live a healthier life eating processed pieces of crackers. You can say that is not natural, but it does not impair their livelihood. Same with cooked meat. Sure, we didn't have cooked meat in the beginning of man kind, but that doesn't mean the sudden consumption of these meats are the root cause of our diseases due to it being unnatural for our bodies.

Science has proven that we have heart attacks because of fats, diabetes because of sweets, cancer because of the sun. But all of these are preventable with a reasonable limited exposure.

As I said, I like meat. Nothing will stop me from eating meat. But there is no lack of transparency to the knowledge of its inherent dangers. However, its dangers are no different than eating too many apples or standing in the sun for too long.