Ida made a great point when she complained that she was expected to forgive her daughter's killer, yet wasn't allowed to have contact with her sister because her sister left the Amish way of life and was ex-communicated. I believe the concept of forgiveness is something a lot of Christians like to use to appear "holier than thou." I'm also bothered that Ida's husband would choose his Amish lifestyle over her.
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I agree with you. I don't understand the Amish custom of "shunning." They forgive people for committing terrible crimes, but they can't forgive a family member for moving away and choosing a different lifestyle? You are right, this is a bit hypocritical.
shareI believe their thinking behind it is that someone who is baptized into the Amish faith is seen as making a commitment to God and their congregation that they will live the Amish life until their time on Earth is finished. When they freely and openly break that commitment, they are shunned as a result. In some orders, a person can choose to leave the community freely without being shunned if they have not been baptized yet.
Shunning is not practiced lightly amongst the Amish and indeed it has caused disagreements within Amish communities to the point that some have split off from others. The way shunning is practiced differs considerably from one community to the next.
Breaking a commitment like leaving the Amish community after having commited to it, and being baptized into it, is not nearly as bad as murdering five children. Those people need to get their priorities straight.
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That's warped logic the Amish have. There is no moral equivelency between leaving a Christian denomination and murdering children. In fact, it seems to me pretty arrogant to shun someone for leaving your particular brand of religion. Tell me, did Jesus shun anyone?
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The Mosaic law was created by Bronze age men. If a country used Mosaic law today, America would consider them human rights violators. But anyway, Christians shunning other Christians for such trivial reasons as a change in denominations is ridiculous. And it makes Christians look bad, does it not?
I wonder if Ida keeps in touch with her sister.
>The Mosaic law was created by Bronze age men.
I'll have to disagree with that. I'm not sure which part you are referring to but the Mosaic law consisted of the 10 commandments, and then numerous other civil, religious, dietary, and symbolic laws applying those principles to various parts of Jewish life. They were not stone age, even though some of them would not apply to any other country today, because no other country is (or ever will be) in the unique position the Jews were in at that time (as a theocracy, directly under God).
You also have to bear in mind that the Jews picked up the sword, and therefore put themselves partly in the place of God as the final executor of justice. While God does not Himself terminate people for worshiping other gods, the end result of that sin is cutting off from the source of Life, which is death.
The last 6 commandments of the 10 are the basis of most decent civil law in most civilized countries. The difference between the first four and the last six mark the dividing line between civil and religious laws, and therefore act as a guide to religious liberty.
There were many civil laws given which, if practiced in America, would have prevented many of the problems we are now facing. For example, the law about not charging usury (interest) would have prevented the abuses of Wall Street and financial giants; the law about every family having it's land (so that they could provide their own living) would have prevented poverty and laziness, as well as prevented the corporate takeover of agriculture and the food industry; the laws regarding the cancellation of all debts every 7 or 50 years would have prevented a lot of financial abuse and misery. That's only touching a few.
There were also others that instructed land owners to leave certain parts of their crop for the poor to gather; and laws instructing them to be hospitable to strangers.
>If a country used Mosaic law today, America would
>consider them human rights violators.
You are probably only thinking of those laws wherein people were punished for the worship of other gods. As explained above, the situation was unique. God Himself never stopped Eve from following the serpent, nor Adam's children, such as Cain and Nimrod.
When He formed a covenant with the Jews, they were to be His people, devoted to His service. They agreed with those terms. So far as that goes, it is no different with any church or christian faith. They all make some kind of agreement to hold to a standard before God.
The difference comes in with the punishment of the offender. That was primarily done because the Jews picked up the sword after the destruction of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea. Before that they were unarmed, and that is how God led them out of Egypt.
But once they picked up the sword, they were, in effect, saying to God that they had more confidence in their own adminstration of justice and judgment. He could have told them to put the sword down, but this would not have given them the faith they were lacking.
Instead, God allowed them to use the sword but under His direction: they were not to exact extreme revenge: ie. "an eye for an eye" and not "a thousand eyes for one eye"; the victories they gained in battle were to be done under God's direction and often by miraculous means, so as to teach them that faith, and not their sword, was the cause of the victory; and lastly, they would have to administer the punishment against sin, instead of God. Had they left this in God's hands, sin would have brought it's own consequences, as it always does.
The "wages of sin is death." Sin brings death...it destroys life by putting the person out of harmony with the laws of his being. How quickly it destroys depends on how great the sin is, and how much merciful protection God exercises over the sinner (so that he has a chance to realize his foolishness and change his ways). When the sin is great, or the protection of God is little, then the destruction can happen very quickly.
When Jesus came, we do not find Him instructing His followers to kill anyone who didn't believe in Him, because He came to establish the original faith again. Those who have faith in God can leave the judgment in His hands. That was always the ideal, and the more accurate portrayal of God's character.
(Tell me, did Jesus shun anyone?)
Yes. he told the apostles to leave their families to follow him. christianty is nothing but another cult. it has evolved into many forms and various specifics, but the original group was a perfect example of a cult. we accept large institutions and organized religions as okay parts of society, but every one of them started out with a few people obsessing about a new idea and separating themselves from others.
You are entitled to your opinion, but trying to explain faith to someone who is not of "The Faith" is futile based on the fact that if you are not "a believer", you are not looking at the situation through God's eyes; all I can say in answer to your statement about which sin is more severe, is that God does not have grades of sin. To him one is as bad as another; they all separate you from Him.
shareI used to be a believer. But even then I thought there were grades of sin. You say God sees them all the same, yet Mosaic law had different degrees of punishment, eye for an eye.... Now why would God give different degrees of punishment if he saw them all as equally bad? Come on, stealing my purse is not the same as killing my daughter. Get real.
share"I used to be a believer"; does this signify that now you are not? Did something happen in your life that made you question your Faith and turn away from God; if so I am sorry. You mentioned the Mosaic Law, this was a guide book for the human condition, to inform the Jews of their transgressions from God's perfect standards; without the Law their would be no sin, as it says in the Book of Judges in the Old Testament "The people did what was right in their own eyes. As far as God's requirements, they are obedience over sacrifice; as it says in James 2:10 (New Testament) "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all". The Amish feel that they have no right to judge outsiders, that is God's job, but for those that have made the decision to be baptized into the faith and join the Church, then it is the Leaders of the church's duty to discipline them according to the Scriptures (teachings of Jesus). Contrary to the way the film portrayed it, Shunning is not done without reservation nor is it final, nor do they have no contact with those who have made the decision to violate what they had taken a vow before God to support and follow. The "Shunned" can still have communication with the Church family, but they are usually not invited to community activities nor can the "Family" accept money from them. At any time they are allowed to renounce their disobedience and return to the Church if they so choose. Not judging outsiders "the English", is why the Amish of Nickle Mines found it their duty to forgive the Roberts family; it wasn't so much for the Roberts as it was themselves. They feel they won't be forgiven of their transgression if they don't forgive others, as in Psalm 23, which they follow wholeheartedly. Forgiveness does not mean that forgetting is easy not does it mean that if the perpetrator of the crime should live, that they feel he should be absolved of penalties; they believe it is the "government's" responsibility to mete out punishment accordingly. I hope this gives you a better understanding of the Amish and their beliefs and practices. Even if we don't necessarily agree with their ideas and why they do some things, we have to respect their reasons that they have for doing them.
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That part was truth though. The killer in real life did what he did for that same reason. who knows why.
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HYPOCRISY = Most organized religions.
Example: It's okay to murder my flesh and blood but for my flesh and blood to fall in love outside of our beliefs..................cut them out of our lives.
Do as you feel......be a liar and a hypocrit.
Shunning does not mean hating someone, it means not being in contact, putting them out of your mind.
The Bible does teach that when members of the congregation are straying, that you should talk to them and pray for them, then have several people meet with them. If they still refuse to change their ways, they ware no longer let into the congregation. But, at the point where they repent they can be welcomed back.
Because I may not want to hang out with you or don't approve of your ways does not mean I hate you or wish you harm - that is what will only hurt us.
I agree 100% w/the OP. I thought about that statement too...why forgive the killer of your 1st born and not your family who found happiness elsewhere?
I'm thinking that they're more forgiving of folks OUTSIDE their community as opposed to those INSIDE the Amish community.
I have to wonder how they would have reacted if one of their own killed the kids? Would they have been as forgiving?
Keep in mind that while this movie was based on true events, some of the characters and storyline were fictionalized for dramatic effect. From what I've read, there wasn't a member of the Amish community who felt the need to leave because they couldn't forgive. I'm not saying that hasn't happened before, but regarding this event that was a fictionalized storyline.
A Fact Of Life...
After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F....
What needs to be remembered here is that organized religion in and of itself does not grant salvation. It is merely a tool or instrument to find "the way to salvation." To label ALL Christians as hypocrites is generalization. If someone of a certain race or gender offended you, would you call all people in that category as bad people? There are Chriatians that do use their religion for pride and self-elation, but that's not fair to say that every Christian is like that....it's an ideal that all people should strive for and even the most faithful of Christians find the humility to accept that they are not perfect and need God's grace.
share honestly the world would be a better place without the torah, bible or koran these books have been nothing but a curse on humanity since they were written, who knows how much better off the human race would be had the religious beliefs we followed been based on respect for anothers belief system and the right to live and let live, rather than these ones that are based on forcing your belief system on others and showing no respect for anothers right to believe how they choose.condemning those that dont believe the same way you do what a crock of bull.
its all nothing but fairy tales anyway, that crap doesnt go on now so why beleive it was going on then,cmon man use your common sense
i live in the bible belt and i hate the intolerance christians have, they look down on muslims and yet their church has been behind some of the greatest atrocities in history. hell even as recent as world war 2, the church didnt exactly condemn hitler now did it? for that matter the roman church is still following a belief system that its ok to rape little boys but not have sex with a woman.
each to their own just please please please keep it out of my face because im really not interested thank you
What a load of rubbish.
Having a faith doesn't guarantee that a person will do no bad, but i believe it will help moderate it and provide some form of conscience.
Bad things are done by religious people and bad things are done by people in the name of religion but to think that these acts would never occur if everyone had a secular outlook is amazingly naive.
From the birth of man, we have been killing and torturing each other and having a faith in god doesn't increase the propensity. Believing in God might not turn everyone into a happy, clappy, self sacrificing loving humanitarian.
But then you can hardly argue that not believing in a God will either.
That's pure BS.
honestly the world would be a better place without the torah, bible or koran these books have been nothing but a curse on humanity since they were written,
i live in the bible belt and i hate the intolerance christians have,
each to their own just please please please keep it out of my face because im really not interested thank you
Some of the posters here seem to think that forgiving a person is condoning his or her actions, and it isn't. Forgiveness is refusal to harbor hate of a person for an action of the past. Forgiving a murderer is not saying that murder is okay.
Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies
If it wasn't the torah, bible or koran, it would have been something else. People don't know why they exist and what this material world is and how it works, so they imagine themselves a world where everything is perfect with a perfect ruler. It took a while to invent tools such as the microscope, telescope, TLC, ... and to understand how the world works (I'm not saying it is all done and over).
But discoveries are boring for the majority of people and too complex. Too much time needs to be dedicated to read every scientific paper.
As an atheist, I can understand why people follow whatever religion. I think it is normal human behavior.
"I'm also bothered that Ida's husband would choose his Amish lifestyle over her."
Why would that bother you more than that Ida would choose hating a dead man over her love for her husband; that she would leave him because she couldn't change him from the man he was when she married him? Her hatred for the murderer's widow was especially unwarranted.
Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies
Uh she didnt leave him she was there when the news reporter came back. He was the one who didnt want to go as she offered and threatened to shun her. She had every right to be angry and unforgiving and every right to want to get away from the community for awhile. Are you a bigot or did you just have comprehension problems while watching this? I hardly see how being bothered by forgiving your childs killer is trying to "change someone"
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