MovieChat Forums > The Infidel (2010) Discussion > The Whole Premise Of This Movie Is Absur...

The Whole Premise Of This Movie Is Absurd


I have not seen the film, but I have viewed the trailer. This movie appears to revolve around the assumption that Islam and Judaism are ethnicities. They are not. They are both religions and therefore, choices.

Here in the United States, former secretary of state Madeline Albright discovered late in life that her biological parents were Jewish which she found interesting, but it did not stop her from attending church services.

A person's religion is whatever they choose to be. This film would suggest that one has the obligation to choose the religion of one's biological parents, which is ridiculous. The world is full of people who were raised Muslim who later converted to Judaism, and vice-versa, based solely on which faith felt more comfortable to them.

If a man's adoptive parents are Methodists, then later discovers that his biological parents are Episcopalians, I seriously doubt that he would suddenly feel an uncontrolable urge to switch churches (and I also don't think it would make a particularly entertaining movie either).

If this were set in Northern Ireland in the 70s, and was about a Catholic who suddenly discovers he's "supposed to be" a Protestant (or vice-versa), it might make an interesting film, but it wouldn't be a comedy. It would be a serious rumination on the absurdity of how people wind up being who they are, based largely on what the people that raised them tell them they are.

Everyone's faith should be based exclusively on whatever it is they feel most spiritually drawn to. Incidentally, I am an Atheist.

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Like many others said the premise of the movie is that you can choose your own religion. The man finds out he was Jewish born and so goes on to have an identity crisis of sorts whereby he is doing things in a Jewish way and at other times in a Muslim way. The story line is actually quite good, and I would suggest watching the movie before commenting on it in a negative manner.

PS this movie highlights some of these "spiritual" feelings as well as showing interconnectedness between the faiths and showing how ridiculous fanatacism is from the people of any faith background. so again, watch the movie you may just enjoy it.

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I'm afraid I have to disagree. My father (white British in case of confusion), was a deputy head and teacher at a school in Birmingham, where there were children from Pakistani families and Muslim families, with some Jewish. It's hard to comprehend just how complicated the whole affair is. The rivalries are intense and from my experience with his work it became clear that the forceful nature of the Islamic religion, for example, beset fathers to be forceful towards their own families and children when it comes to his religion. It's these forceful techniques that confuse a lot of children in our modern society, and some parents too. A great deal of the students at the school he worked at were essentially English, but with either one or two of their parents being from Pakistan or Islam. The confusion over simply wanting to be a British kid and do everything their friends do, be they white or otherwise, or to follow the religion their forceful fathers and devote themselves to faith is one of the worst afflictions they can bear. Islamic religion quite clearly forces anyone devoted to it to instantly appose the views and lifestyles of anyone from the west, regardless of if, deep down, they know they do not personally hold it against them.

But in terms of the film, having only seen the trailer you cannot comment on the validity or quality of it. It is a form of ignorance to believe you have made a clear and concise viewpoint on something you have not seen. It would also be ignorant for anyone to claim they are either Christian or atheist when they know nothing about the religion itself. People are too quick to declare themselves atheist, and often they do it simply to be able to fit into an infrastructure when lost in terms of their own self identity. I am an atheist, however, this is because I have studied the bible, and in my opinion I believe it to be nullifying and lacking in enlightenment to believe it to be gospel truth. Science is always able to discount it.

However, I do take an active interest in religions, if only because of my thirst for knowledge about the world which surrounds us. And it's because of this I found this film to be utterly hilarious. It was very well written and Omid was excellent.

9/10

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Actually...Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group. Meaning their religion and ethnicity are very much related. Jewish people, as an ethnicity, are able to trace their lineage back to the ancient Israelites. Well, most groups can. Meaning many Jewish people actually have a direct lineage to the original Jewish religion itself, or rather the people that spawned the religion.

So, when it comes to Jewish people, the religion AND the ethnicity can be considered one thing. This is kind of one of the major reasons that the middle east has been at war for 2,000 years. Judaism and the Muslim religion are completely at odds with each other. There is no great number of people hopping back and forth between the two. I'm sure it happens, but it's not exactly common place. It's not a matter of "comfort", it's a matter of genealogy, and the fact that in the middle east, there is no separation of religion and politics. Politics IS religion, and visa-versa. And both their religious books have very strict rules on what happens when you change faiths. Such as, in the Muslim religion, technically it's legal by law to kill someone who is not the same religion, seeing as how they are not equal as a human. A man is one, a woman is equal to half a man, and a non-muslim is equal to half a woman. Essentially in some countries of the middle-east, if you're not the local religion, you're about equal to livestock. Perhaps less. Granted the Christian bible has quite a few terrible things in it as well. So I'm not playing favorites. All 3 religions have the same foundation afterall.

Now as to the question of actual faith, yes people can clearly choose whatever they want. But the Jewish religion isn't quite as cut and dry as Christianity. Afterall, Christianity was born on the backs of Jews and gentiles. But these people went against their genetic heritage. Religion is so complicated aint it.

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The Middle East has been at war for 2,000 years? That's interesting, since Christianity as we know it wasn't practiced until around the 4th century and Islam came widely into being in the 7th century.

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to let us know how the region has been at war all that time and what form these wars took.

Religion is "so complicated" if you believe in monotheism, for sure. I don't, so I could care less about all the religious wank that various humans have made up and exploited for their own purposes all this time.

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I'm not saying I'm a believer of Religion, just that in some cases ethnicity and religion are the same.

Israelites and other tribes have been warring since basically the original Israelite people settled in the land of Canaan. Much of the area was populated, and tribal borders shifted and were fought over both before and after Christ. Judaism wasn't the only religion in the region until Christianity and Islam came about you know. The people who eventually became Christians and Islam's were going through all sorts of trials before they were properly identified and recognized as their own respective religions. I guess saying "war" probably isn't 100% accurate, I suppose being at odds with eachother, with death and attempted genocide being the outcome pretty often over the course of 2,000 years?

Dunno if that works better for you.

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What a grudging acknowledgement that you are wrong. There has been no attempted genocide until just before the State of Israel was founded, when 700,000 Palestinians were killed and/or driven from their homes by the usurpers in the Naqba.

The rest of the populated world was riven by the same disagreements and territorial disputes all this time. Very few of those have been religious in nature, a major exception being the Crusades.

"...being at odds with eachother, with death and attempted genocide being the outcome pretty often..." sounds more like the history of your country, though.

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If you had done even the most simple of google searches, you'd find that you have no idea what you're talking about.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

A brief history of conflicts and wars starting almost 4,000 years ago in the middle east. Dates many conflicts, wars, revolutions, all sorts of stuff.

Not sure why you're being so aggressive about it. Feel free to insult my country and act like an ignorant jackass, but fact is, you're the one that's incorrect here.

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The reason for my aggressiveness is your constant resort to sarcasm in support of what you imagine to be justification for your statements - your latest being the starting sentence of your last post. And "Dunno if that works for you". Well no, it doesn't work for me, and nothing you've said or quoted has changed that view. Referring to me as "an ignorant jackass" doesn't really help much either.

The history of most of the world at that time, insofar as we can work out from histories which are often oral, is marked by territorial disputes and tribal fighting etc. There was nothing religious, in a formalised modern-day sense, about this strife because organised religion didn't exist. There was certainly no strife between Arabs and Jews until the Jewish usurpation of Arab lands. The website you cite is interesting, but is heavily biased - unsurprising given its provenance.

This is an article written in 1947 by King Abdullah of Transjordan, in 'The American' magazine. It may be that a different perspective will help you to see that things are rarely black and white: http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

Insult your country? You don't have the first idea. A bankrupt nation which has destroyed 40% of the world's wealth over the past three years, a country which is hell-bent on financial and military suicide is something that merits respect? The world disagrees with you.

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I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, I was trying to come to come to a compromise. You're too busy being a biased bigot to have a normal conversation, you're the one that got all upset in the first place. You're focusing on one sentence in my original post, which I stated was "one" of the reasons.

What do you call the Israeli religion? It wasn't organized? Thousands of people just populated lands and prayed to the same god for thousands of years. Wups, guess that's not an organized religion by your standards. Also, the old Testament, believe it or not, is still one of the oldest written works of mankind, so within biblical archaeology and science, being one of the extremely few sources of knowledge, it is widely accepted as a source of history. Since I know you'll have an argument with that, no I'm not claiming the bible as fact, but it is accepted as a documentation of historical events. So no, the history of the world isn't just written off as largely oral. Archaeology, along with documentation of that time point to many conflicts. You're taking liberties and being extremely anal by using "formalized modern-day" as your basis of religion. The tenets of the Jewish religion were formed during those times, many of which are still followed strictly to this day.

I'm not really stating any broad facts and I'm not sure what you're so upset about. Just because I live in the United States doesn't mean I'm guilty for everything that's happened here. That makes you the prejudice and bigoted one, not me. I was just trying to make conversation.

Besides, my original point was about how the Jewish religion is one of the few that has strong ethnic ties. You're just picking a random fight.

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If this is representative of you trying to come to a compromise, and just trying to make conversation, is it any wonder that you get lumped in with a broad stereotype regarding Americans? Calling me a biased bigot is just the latest in your quest for compromise, is it?

Like others of your ilk you pick and choose what you decide you want to argue about. You ignore most of the statements I make and keep plugging away at an area you know to be speculative. You contend that there have been wars between Jews and others for thousands of years in the Middle East, yet ignore my assertion that for the most part Jews and Arabs, both Semitic peoples, have lived side-by-side in the area.

You, after your snide remark about what you perceive as an inability to use a damn search engine, cite me a Jewish propaganda site as evidence for your statements. On the other hand, when I give you the link for the Jordanian king's article it is completely ignored - even though it is anything but biased. I do believe you are a member of the Intelligent Design herd, whatever your initial disclaimers.

I'm not saying that you are responsible for all the ills of your country. But you have reached what you people like to call a tipping-point and you and your people are going to have to adopt a less arrogant and self-important approach towards other people.

There is, by the way, no such word as ethnoreligious; it's just another American neologism.

It's been fun compromising and chatting with you. Please consider this conversation at an end.

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No, you're incapable of actual conversation. Whereas my original comment, based on this thread, which commented on this thread...actually addressed this thread, you've merely made rude attacks on me time and time again. I've tried to be amicable, but you just don't want it to happen. You've insulted my comments, my knowledge, my sources, my country...and it's all been really unprovoked. I said the middle east had been at war for thousands of years, and even compromised, by admitting it might have been too an extreme a word.

When you questioned, I showed you a simple way of proving it using the tiniest amount of effort. You apparently find it offensive to post responses arguing your own point, using readily available resources. That "propaganda" site, was merely stating dates and conflicts, there wasn't any in depth explanations of the why the conflicts took place, or who was at fault, merely that at that point in history...a conflict took place, and it had been documented.

Fact is, you're an angry, upset, ignorant little troll, who picked an unprovoked fight for an unknown reason. You've taken offense to things that weren't originally meant as offensive, you take liberties with facts and history, and overall you've proven yourself to be very ignorant and biased on very simple things. On top of it all, what you're arguing isn't even what this topic was about. Feel free to "end" this conversation, you started, but fact is...you're a jackass.

Btw, ethnoreligious is a word:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group
http://www.dawodu.com/adeyemi3.htm
http://www.museumstuff.com/learn/topics/ethnoreligious_group
http://www.pakistan-karachi.info/Ethnoreligious

Once again, if you had bothered to use the most simple of search engines, you'd find that you still have no idea what you're talking about.

Now this conversation is over. Have a good day bigot.

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@terrencepatrix hmmm the ethnoreligious point could be true since jews are only jews if their mother was a jew...but i have to strongly disagree with the rest of ur points.

judaism and islam at odds with each other ? no, infact islam and judaism have much more in common than when compared to any other religion. During the crusades (crusades = western christian holy war against any muslim, jew or even middle eastern christian) it was the muslims who protected the jews.

the middle east has been at peace whenever there was no western interference there, unfortunately the west only hears about the middle east when they (the west) is attacking the middle east.

legal to kill anyone who isnt the same religion ? then why are there still so many christians in the middle east and hindus and sikhs and buddhists ? why isnt india ALL muslim because muslims ruled india for a very long time ? these facts raise some serious issues with ur point.

a woman is equal to half a man ? then why was a woman the prime minister of an islamic country (Pakistan) when every man in that country had twice as much power as her ?

anyway with all ur half a man half a animal value tallychart thingy i would like to ask you, how much worth does a religious person have to you since u r clearly atheist ? half a fart ?

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Woman being worth half a man:

Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).

Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."

About the conflict between the two religions, it's explained in way more depth than I could ever get into here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Judaism

I never said the religions weren't similar, they're based in the same history. I'm not going to spend any more time on you because it's clearly pointless. I never claimed to be atheist. I'm just not religious, or claim one religion as superior to the other. The links I posted showed multiple conflicts that had nothing to do with western involvement. All I stated originally was that the middle east had been at war for thousands of years, and through all the conflicts recorded in that period, I don't really see how any one can really argue it.

Am I implying that the rest of the world didn't have conflicts as well? Of course not. Am I denouncing any religion for their beliefs? Nope. I don't understand what you're arguing...is it...history? You're arguing historical document? Well that's your own problem.

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@randombum2

Its quite obvious you've been brainwashed with anti-west, pro-Islamic propaganda. Your slant on history is absolutely stunning to say the least.

I love how you attempt to blame the west (er Christianity) because Islam got beaten back with a stick for trying to expand and conquer. Are you not familiar with the Muslim conquests? or did they avoid that whole part of history during your brainwashing sessions? er did they portray Islams attempt to conquer benevolent?

Do you have any idea how many civilizations and empires Muslisms destroyed during these "benevolent" conquests?







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"Actually...Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group. Meaning their religion and ethnicity are very much related. Jewish people, as an ethnicity, are able to trace their lineage back to the ancient Israelites. Well, most groups can. Meaning many Jewish people actually have a direct lineage to the original Jewish religion itself, or rather the people that spawned the religion. "
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No. Modern DNA studies show no such thing at all.

I am sure someone will post some dna studies showing affinity withing living Jewish groups but that does not go to any connection whatsoever with ancient Israelites.

As an example look at Bulgaria. the people their have an ethnic affinity with each other, but this does not go to any connection with 5th century Bulgars. Indeed we knwo that 5th century Bulgars were Turkic, and modern Bulgarians are (ethnically, linguistically AND genetically) slavs.

It is more likely the average Palestinian has a direct linage to Moses and Aaron and David than any Ashkenazi. (and before you qupte the "Aaron/founder gene among some Jews, that is a myth since dna studies place that founding gene somewhere between 300 BCE and 500 CE and not 1500 to 1600 BCE (and likely in Anatolia)

As far as the foundatiosn of the three monothiems, they are quiote old and not original to any of them. Judiams is a fusion of Egyptian religions and the adoption of the (originally non Hebrew) Ediomite "Yahweh", using texts mostly borrowed from other areas (babylonia), then fused with Zorastrianism. Finally it was greatly changed by being Hellenized which grated synagogue and latter rabbinic Judaism (both of which are diametrically different from Temple Judaism).

And any sociologist will tell you most regions are "ethnoreligious". Christianity is for the decedents of the roman empire -- and that IS a culture and ethnicity.

Also Christianity was "born" EXACTLY the same way as Judaism and Islam, out of a fusion of various prior religion.

Lastly the evidence is that mountains of Jews converted to Islam and christianity just as mountains of non Hebrewe (caananites in 1000 bce and slavs in 1000 ced)and others converted to Judaism).

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You really shouldn't post a comment on a movie based on the trailer.
It does not matter what religious views you have on it because when it boils down to it the film is terrible anyway. Just seen it and its awful.

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"The world is full of people who were raised Muslim who later converted to Judaism, and vice-versa, "

I think you can only become jewish if your mother is jewish from what i know about judaism.

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Mate - inteligent comedy - really you should get out more...uif all you took away from this film was the usual religio-psycho-babble claptrap I think you kind of missed the point of the movei which is that a) it's all *beep* and b) support of family and friends is what's important...

...Northern Ireland - I'm gonna guess you know as much about NI as you do about Islam and Judaism not being ethnicities...right? I dont get it - the whole point of the film is how absurd the whole thing is - seriously- it's all *beep* it depends entirely on which religous nutter you decide to believe that week...

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By reducing the entire motivations and relationships of the characters to simple religious dimensions you're missing the most interesting and complicated sub-text of the movie you passed on.
Technically, Pakistanis aren't a monolithic ethnic group- but a nation that was born and separated itself into a cultural cohesion based on religion.
Technically Jews aren't a monolithic group, but a nation that was born and separated itself into a cultural cohesion based on religion.

The fact that both groups happened to be born in the same year, makes the similarities, and differences all the more enticing in their potential for conflict.

And of course, our lead protagonists were not even born in the aforementioned nations- (and so chose where their loyalties and connections were placed)and weren't even born in the same western country either- but found comity and really did broaden and enhance each other's lives.

And neither were practicing their faiths anyway- but simply upholding their social contracts within the limitations of their group identities.

It was the way OTHERS responded to Mahmoud's declaration of his discovery of his Jewish lineage- not any decision made by anyone.

Here's a funny true personal story-
My grandmother came from Germany and my Dad and all of my relatives made trips there many times over the years, my Dad being particularly fascinated with and strongly identified with his German heritage.

My grandmother swore me to secrecy before she died and told me no one was German at all- but the family had come from Alsace and emigrated, and so all of our blood was French. After I thought about it for one second I realized her maiden name was- French. (No one else had ever noticed before either.)

A few years after she died, I told my Dad, normally a very logical kind of guy.
Now his head told him this was true, but his emotions told him he is German, and will always be German.
Yes, and he did get mad at me for telling him.

Now, his ethnicity wasn't his choice- but it was his choice to decide he is German, as incongruous as that may be.

We humans just aren't so one dimensional to define ourselves wholly and entirely by one aspect, such as religion.
We're a funny lot, and this movie illustrated that point nicely.
It was a comedy, and I laughed...A LOT, and so it was successful.


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I just stumbled across this movie today. It was available for instant play on Netflix, so I just started watching it and I loved it! When I discovered that my ancestors were Cherokee, I started learning more about the Cherokee. When I discovered I was descended from some Huguenots, I started learning more about the Huguenots. When I discovered a Hessian soldier in my family tree, I started learning more about the Hessians. But when the Holy Ghost testified to me that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true, I left my Protestant church in a heartbeat. People do change religions. Nobody said this guy had to become Jewish, but for many people there is that moment of curiosity about what might have been.

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