By the end of the court hearings, I started finding it feasible that Salander really could be a psychopath. Her defense was able to discredit the testimony's against her (through illegal, possibly false means (the child porn on Teleborian's laptop)), but that doesn't change the fact that she could be a sociopath. Did anyone else think this?
shareBut the fact that she could be a sociopath is irrelevant legally.
shareTrue, but isn't it possible that Plague planted the child pornography on Teleborian's computer? Teleborian's testimony is thrown out because of the charges that are pressed upon him, but we never find out if he's convicted. When Plague hacks Teleborian's computer, tb seems shocked to see the porn on there. Could he be right? Is Salander a danger to society?
shareIn the movie, he went straight from a shower, opened up his computer, and started looking at it while Plague happened to have his computer hi-jacked.
shareSo you don't think that there's any possibility plague planted the porn? It just seemed so... convenient.
shareNo, I think there is no chance. Lisbeth, as a kid, could even tell that Teleborian got off on watching when she was restrained in the bed at St. Stephen's; although, he never touched her. Plus, even if someone did plant child porn on your computer, and you find it, and are interested in it, it's just as bad.
shareBut you are talking about it like its fact.
salander knew he got off? We never go inside her head. As the audience, we are only left to interpret the flashback as it happens. I'm speaking of the film, not the book.
I also was not convinced that Tb got off on the pornography; I thought his reaction resembled shock morso than pleasure.
Mind you, I am playing devil's advocate. And this is why I love the trilogy so much, because salander, even after we're given so much info on her character, remains a mystery.
You're not really playing the Devil's advocate, you're purposely misconstruing fact and making wild speculations. Teleborian was viewing child porn. He was looking at files that some other pedophile had sent to him. There was no look of "surprise" on his face, it was just the sick pleasure that he had some new images to look at. It's really not important what you are "convinced" of, because some people in this world still believe the world is flat. Doesn't matter how much evidence you show them, how many images of a round Earth taken by NASA, they still aren't "convinced". You seem to be very interested in the idea that Lisbeth might be a sociopath. The definition of a "sociopath" by the DSM-IV is the following:
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3. impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
Now, lets take them one-by-one:
1. Is Lisbeth constantly breaking the law? No, she isn't.
2. Does Lisbeth lie constantly, use aliases for personal profit or pleasure? No, she doesn't.
3. Is Lisbeth impulsive and failing to plan ahead? Uh, I'd say Lisbeth is very controlled and shows a remarkable ability to plan ahead, much to the chagrin of her persecutors.
4. Is Lisbeth irritable, aggressive, constantly fighting and assaulting people? No. She has formed several interpersonal relationships, where she expresses love and a genuine regard for the other person's feelings and well-being.
5. Does Lisbeth disregard the safety of herself or others? Or does she actively seek out the protection of her friends from her persecutors?
6. Is Lisbeth consistently irresponsible? Does she have a problem holding down a job? Is she irresponsible with her money? No, she holds a job and is - by all accounts - an excellent researcher and performs her job very well. She employs a lawyer and financial planner to help her with her money and properties.
7. Does Lisbeth show no remorse, is she always indifferent? Does she rationalize hurting, mistreating, or stealing from others? Lisbeth thanks Mikael for helping her, and thanks him for being a friend. Is that indifferent? Does she hurt friends and rationalize hurting them? No, she doesn't.
So, according to the DSM-IV, Lisbeth doesn't show even one feature of an antisocial personality disorder (a sociopath). However, Lisbeth does have many features of a woman who has been systematically sexually, physically, emotionally and mentally abused.
I think you should spend more time learning about the consequences of abuse, and less time playing the "Devil's advocate" in an endeavor that is clearly worthless. Lisbeth is withdrawn, if she is in any way "antisocial" it is because on multiple occasions, by many different persons, she has been sexually, mentally, physically and emotionally abused in a most egregious manner. I'm not sure how you expect a young woman to act when she has been abused so many times by so many people, and she grew up in a home where her mother was systematically abused, resulting in permanent brain damage. If you expect such a person to be all sunny and bubbly, then (as I said) you need to spend some time educating yourself about abuse victims and abandon these futile attempts to characterize Lisbeth as a sociopath.
"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus
Not that I think she's a sociopath, but I would definitely say you could make an argument that Lisbeth meets a few of the characteristics. Most notably with number 2; it is pretty much exactly how the first book and movies ended.
shareHiroprotagonistyt,
As you can see, I think she meets ALL of those attributes. I'm still not convinced TB got off to that child porno, and I still think Plague planted it. Think of the sequence of shots...
Plague on the computer, hacking into Teleborian's computer...
TB sitting down at his pc, opening it up, and child porno is all over the place, then that (at least what I interpret to be) shocked facial expression...
Later, Plague tries to anonymously leave the "evidence" at Blomkvist's apartment. How can he trust Plague? I mean, for flying spaghetti monster's sake, his name is "PLAGUE," and he's never met him before. Sure, he knows Salander, BUT Blomkvist will blindly assist Salander (though, understandably so, she didn't have to save Blomkvist at the end of the first film, but another ally could help her out. I view her view of people as possible "allies," not possible "friends." Although, this is where people will differ in opinion, and multiple interpretations should be considered)
And again, I'm speaking of the films by themselves, which should always (which being films based on books) stand as separate interpretations of art. The exception being 2001: A Space Odyssey, of course, where they were made to go hand in hand.
See the movie again. There is no place for doubt. The sequence is clearly shown. You're just making a case of fantasy... what if...
share
*Hiroprotagonistyt,
As you can see, I think she meets ALL of those attributes. I'm still not convinced TB got off to that child porno, and I still think Plague planted it. Think of the sequence of shots...
Plague on the computer, hacking into Teleborian's computer...
TB sitting down at his pc, opening it up, and child porno is all over the place, then that (at least what I interpret to be) shocked facial expression...
Later, Plague tries to anonymously leave the "evidence" at Blomkvist's apartment. How can he trust Plague? I mean, for flying spaghetti monster's sake, his name is "PLAGUE," and he's never met him before. Sure, he knows Salander, BUT Blomkvist will blindly assist Salander (though, understandably so, she didn't have to save Blomkvist at the end of the first film, but another ally could help her out. I view her view of people as possible "allies," not possible "friends." Although, this is where people will differ in opinion, and multiple interpretations should be considered)
And again, I'm speaking of the films by themselves, which should always (which being films based on books) stand as separate interpretations of art. The exception being 2001: A Space Odyssey, of course, where they were made to go hand in hand. *
I think your complicating the plot too much, to the point of seeing things that aren't there. The whole trilogy is about 'men who hate women' and injustice. Lisbeth is the victim here, that is both true in the books AND the films, there are NO separate interpretations.
Teleborian did not look shocked in the slightest. He was sitting there in his bath robe,with an excited look on his face, staring at his lap top. Obviously the filmakers wanted us to know, that this IS his USUAL routine;looking at child porn.
Teleborian is a crook ! He's lied on several occasions about Lisbeth. He denied leaving her in restraints for almost a year(when she was wrongly sent to a children's mental institution)even though his staff and her medical report say otherwise. He lied about Lisbeth's mother being beaten by Lisbeth father-only for Palmgrien (Lisbeth's GAURDIAN)to say otherwise. He made out that Lisbeth claims of being raped, by her new guardian;Nils Bjurman where a lie-even though we all know that she was indeed raped. We know that he did indeed collaborate with the SAPO to fabricate a report, that claimed that she was 'incompetent' and a sociopath. In addition to lying about her, he's used everything from her sexuality, to her tattoo's to defame her. And why? to protect a Russian spy.
When all this came out in court, Teleborian was ALREADY in deep shyte for perjury, with or without child porn on his computer. The child porn being on his computer was just further proof, of what a creep he is.
In every incidence where Salander has been agressive, its always proceeded by some form of abuse. From being:
Raped
Molested
Accosted by two burly bikers
Buried alive
or Shot at-twice
It's hinted that she may have Asperger's Syndrome hence her difficulties in relationships, I don't think that makes her a sociopath.
In fact the REAL sociopath is her half brother;Ronald Niederman, and Zalachenko. They SET OUT to hurt people everyday. The computer hacking that she does is not malicious, she is simply an information junkie. I hardly think that many people care about her stealing billions from a crook.
Put it down Bart,put it down Bart,put it down
You seem serious about all this.
If PLAGUE wanted to plant something illegal to entrap Teleborian, I'm sure there are more serious stuff than child forns misdemeaner.
Technically, You can't just instantly upload 8 thousand of child forns over WiFi.
I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
A person must meet three or more of those requirements, and Lisbeth does not. As to number two, she has MUCH more of a motive that simply stealing money. She does this to expose his illicit accounts and help to exonerate Blomkvist. The money was just a bonus.
"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!
Salander meets all 7 of those characteristics.
1. Does Salander constantly break the law? YES: she is a computer hacker (she was obtaining files from Blomkvist's computer illegally), not to mention she assisted in the murder of her half-brother when she called the biker gang before the police. Don't forget all of the breaking and entering she does to illegally obtain information.
2. Does Salander lie constantly, use aliases for personal profit or pleasure? What did you think she was doing when she stole money from the head of the Wennerstrom corporation?
3. Is Lisbeth impulsive and fail to plan ahead? YES: Her quick decision to kill Martin after she discovers he's the serial killer; ambushing her father's home with no weapons, and without a layout of the property, not thinking there would be any security; running into the abandoned warehouse which was part of her father's estate without aid or at least finding out more about it first.
4. Is Salander irritable, aggressive, constantly assaulting people and fighting people? YES: that breaking and entering where she tied that guy up (not Bjurman, though that itself is pretty aggressive, but the guy in TGWPWF); and she seems to always been in situations where she is fighting. She has next to no loving relationships. She walks into and out of relationships as she needs people. "Yeah, I missed you, you're important, let's *beep* and you'll back from me in a year or so... or you won't hear from me." (pretty much a summation of her interactions)
5. Does Lisbeth disregard the safety of herself or others? Would you call ambushing her father's property regarding her own safety? Would you call giving that girl her apartment when she knew people were after her regarding the safety of that girl? And yes, I would say she actively searches out protection of her "friends" ("Mikael, people are after me, here's some leads, I will never seek you out again.")
6. Is she irresponsible? Does she hold a job? Does she manage her finances well? Well, she did steal billions from Wennerstrom, so yeah, she's pretty good with her money. Irresponsible? refer to 3.
7. Does Lisbeth show remorse? Is she constantly indifferent? Does she rationalize hurting others? She doesn't show remorse to the guy she tied up at home. She could've just presented the tape of her being raped by Bjurman to the police, she didn't have to tattoo him and torture him. I'd call that rationalizing. Don't make me list all of the others here possible. Okay, one more example... watching Martin burn.
Does that do it for ya?
The DSM-IV goes into much greater detail about these items, I just posted summarized data. Items like number one, for example has a deeper meaning:
"They may repeatedly perform acts that are grounds for arrest (whether they are arrested or not), such as destroying property, harassing others, stealing, or pursuing illegal occupations."
Lisbeth is a researcher who is asked to do background checks. Because many agencies won't share data, she has to (sometimes) use underground methods to obtain this data. She is not running around destroying property, harrassing people and stealing all the time. She stole, once, and did this to expose Wennerström's illicit accounts and to implicate him in the very horrific illegal activities he was involved in.
The DSM-IV is talking about people that sell drugs, constantly steal, people who are career criminals, not someone who is a researcher who sometimes has to do some questionable things to obtain the information her employers request.
As to number two: Lisbeth does not lie constantly or use aliases constantly for personal profit or pleasure. She does this ONE time to expose Wennerström.
As to three, you wrote:
Is Lisbeth impulsive and fail to plan ahead? YES: Her quick decision to kill Martin after she discovers he's the serial killer; ambushing her father's home with no weapons, and without a layout of the property, not thinking there would be any security; running into the abandoned warehouse which was part of her father's estate without aid or at least finding out more about it first.
4. Is Salander irritable, aggressive, constantly assaulting people and fighting people? YES: that breaking and entering where she tied that guy up (not Bjurman, though that itself is pretty aggressive, but the guy in TGWPWF); and she seems to always been in situations where she is fighting. She has next to no loving relationships. She walks into and out of relationships as she needs people. "Yeah, I missed you, you're important, let's *beep* and you'll back from me in a year or so... or you won't hear from me." (pretty much a summation of her interactions)
Aggressive acts that are required to defend oneself or someone else are not considered to be evidence for this item
5. Does Lisbeth disregard the safety of herself or others? Would you call ambushing her father's property regarding her own safety? Would you call giving that girl her apartment when she knew people were after her regarding the safety of that girl? And yes, I would say she actively searches out protection of her "friends" ("Mikael, people are after me, here's some leads, I will never seek you out again.")
6. Is she irresponsible? Does she hold a job? Does she manage her finances well? Well, she did steal billions from Wennerstrom, so yeah, she's pretty good with her money. Irresponsible? refer to 3.
7. Does Lisbeth show remorse? Is she constantly indifferent? Does she rationalize hurting others? She doesn't show remorse to the guy she tied up at home. She could've just presented the tape of her being raped by Bjurman to the police, she didn't have to tattoo him and torture him. I'd call that rationalizing. Don't make me list all of the others here possible. Okay, one more example... watching Martin burn.
1. So, as per you... Many serious journalists and armymen and lawyers and investigators are sociopaths.
2. Did you watch part 1 to understand the motive? She is not a willing hacker. She hacks with a purpose.
3. Lisbeth has a clear motive to get the ring behind bars. She is contantly after proof. You can't always plan ahead for everything. As per you, most people on this earth would be sociopaths.
4. When is she shown assaulting people? Don't you understand that she is only reacting? Perhaps you don't understand.
5. Again, most heroes would be soiopaths as per your logic.
6. Poor logic. Just because someone steals money does not mean he is good in managing it. She is shown to be good. Read the response of the person you responded to.
7. So, if a terrorist is hanged because he killed many, I would say entire countries are sociopaths in rationlising his murder. watching martin burn? You didn't see the movie, did you? Going by some of your responses, you yourself fall under a few of those sociopathic charcteristics.
If you think she's a sociopath then you misinterpreted the movie, or don't understand what a sociopath is. She's damaged and emotionally distant, but it's her humanity that makes her a complex and compelling character.
share2 more things, Bladerunner,
She is ungrateful to the lawyer BLOMKVIST GAVE TO HER, and I hardly call what she gave Blomkvist at the very end a "thank you." Salander sees Blomkvist's thirst for appreciation (made easy by the fact that her lawyer (Blomkvist's sister) keeps telling her that he wants to see her). She leaves him alone for over a year after the events of the first film and only reaches out when she's desperate, why would you think she would reach out to him again just to hang out?
Lisbeth is very leery of *anyone* who is part of a system that put her in institutions, let off her mother's abuser scot-free, and violently, sexually abused her. Lawyers were the kind of people that put her IN the institution and that remanded her to being a ward of the state, so of course she is going to find it hard to trust lawyers and judges.
She goes to Mikael at the end of Dragon Tattoo to declare her love for him, and sees him with his lover, Erika. This is a very painful thing for her. If you had formed a sexual relationship with someone, a romantic relationship, and you then saw that person hugging and kissing an old lover, would you want to be all buddy-buddy with that person? Hello? Would you?
If you read the books you would know that much of the reason she doesn't see him is because she has fierce feelings of inadequacy. She muses in TGWTDT:That he was almost twice her age did not bother her. Nor did the fact that at the moment he was one of the most newsworthy people in Sweden, and his picture was even on the cover of Newsweek—that was all just soap opera. But Blomkvist was no erotic fantasy or daydream. It would have to come to an end. It could not possibly work out. What did he need her for? Maybe she was just a way to pass the time while he waited for someone whose life was not a f###ing rat hole.
Earlier she ponders:And she thought about Mikael Blomkvist and wondered what he would say when he found out that she was a ward of the court and that her entire life was a f###ing rats’ nest.
As you can see, she thinks very little of herself and her life and has no idea why a together, successful, important person such as Mikael would want with her. Despite all that, she reaches out to him because she - for the first time in her life - is in love with someone. She tries to stay away, but is inexplicably drawn to him as anyone who is in love with someone, is. Though she has such a low-self esteem, she still manages to muster the courage to see him:She had no faith in herself. Blomkvist lived in a world populated by people with respectable jobs, people with orderly lives and lots of grown-up points. His friends did things, went on TV, and shaped the headlines. What do you need me for? Salander’s greatest fear, which was so huge and so black that it was of phobic proportions, was that people would laugh at her feelings. And all of a sudden all her carefully constructed self-confidence seemed to crumble.
That’s when she made up her mind. It took her several hours to mobilise the necessary courage, but she had to see him and tell him how she felt.
Anything else would be unbearable.
She plans to go see him, and buys him a gift. However, when she gets there:At Hornsgatan she happened to glance towards Kaffebar and saw Blomkvist coming out with Berger in tow. He said something, and she laughed, putting her arm around his waist and kissing his cheek... Their body language left no room for misinterpretations—it was obvious what they had in mind.
The pain was so immediate and so fierce that Lisbeth stopped in mid-stride, incapable of movement.
Sociopaths don't form close, interpersonal relationships. They are incapable of love. Lisbeth loves Mikael, so much that when she sees him with Erika, the pain is "immediate and so fierce" she stops in her tracks, unable to move.
Now, if you fell deeply in love with someone, for the first time in your life and you felt your life was a rat hole, and felt that the person was much better than you, but you mustered the courage to go declare your love for them and suddenly you saw them on the arm of another person, clearly planning to have sex, how would you feel? What would you do?
She doesn't have anything to do with him, because seeing him is painful and because she thinks she is garbage and he has no use for her in a meaningful way.
It takes a long time for Lisbeth to get over this pain and to understand that she an Mikael cannot be lovers, but they can be friends. Her lawyer is also Mikael's sister, so a lot of the pain and anger she feels about Mikael is transferred to Annika. Also, Annika continually tries to make Lisbeth face her "responsibilities" particularly after the trial when she chastises Lisbeth for being unreachable and insists Lisbeth deal with her father's estate, something Lisbeth wants nothing to do with. That, coupled with the fact (which I mentioned about) that Lisbeth is leery of lawyers and judges and governmental types (for good reason) is why she isn't as grateful to Annika as she should be.
In the end, when he comes to see her, more about how she feels is revealed:For two years she had kept as far away from Mikael Blomkvist as she could. And yet he kept sticking to her life like gum on the sole of her shoe, either on the Net or in real life. On the Net it was O.K. There he was no more than electrons and words. In real life, standing on her doorstep, he was still f###ing attractive. And he knew her secrets just as she knew all of his. She looked at him for a moment and realized that she now had no feelings for him. At least not those kinds of feelings. He had in fact been a good friend to her over the past year.
She trusted him. Maybe. It was troubling that one of the few people she trusted was a man she spent so much time avoiding.
Then she made up her mind. It was absurd to pretend that he did not exist. It no longer hurt her to see him. She opened the door wide and let him into her life again.
This is a mature decision, one many, many healthy adults could not make. How many women do you know could pursue a friendship with a man they'd had sex with, fallen in love with and was rejected (romantically)? Honestly, how many people could do this? Most people that have a sexual relationship with someone, and it doesn't work out, could never then be friends with someone. People say it when they break up, "oh, lets be friends", but who actually does it? So, the fact that Lisbeth can put all that aside, and allow him back into her life - as a friend only - is pretty amazing, and very adult.
Lisbeth has problems, and Lisbeth has psychological scars, but she isn't a sociopath. Someone can be angry and ungrateful and steal a bundle of cash without being a sociopath.
If you would take some time to think these things out, and take a little time to read the books, you might actually learn something, but you're so eager to prove that Lisbeth is a sociopath that you won't listen to reason. You persist in believing that Plague (another FRIEND Lisbeth has) planted the child porn on Teleborian's computer. Well, he didn't. From the book:Plague pinged Salander at midnight and interrupted her in the middle of a sentence she was writing about her time with Holger Palmgren as her guardian. She cast an irritated glance at the display.
<What do you want?>
<Hi, Wasp; nice to hear from you too.>
<Yeah yeah. What is it?>
<Teleborian.>
She sat up in bed and looked eagerly at the screen of her Palm.
<Tell me.>
<Trinity fixed it in record time.>
<How?>
<The crazy-doctor won’t stay in one place. He travels between Uppsala and Stockholm all the time and we can’t do a hostile takeover.>
<I know. How?>
<He plays tennis twice a week. About two hours. Left his computer in the car in a garage.>
<Aha.>
<Trinity easily disabled the car alarm to get the computer. Took him 30 minutes to copy everything via Firewire and install Asphyxia.>
<Where?>
Plague gave her the URL of the server where he kept Teleborian’s hard drive.
<To quote Trinity, this is one nasty s##t.>
<?>
<Check his hard drive.>
Salander disconnected from Plague and accessed the server he had directed her to. She spent nearly three hours scrutinizing folder after folder on Teleborian’s computer.
She found correspondence between Teleborian and a person with a Hotmail address who sent encrypted email. Since she had access to Teleborian’s PGP key, she easily decoded the correspondence. His name was Jonas, no last name. Jonas and Teleborian had an unhealthy interest in seeing that Salander did not thrive.
Yes, we can prove that there is a conspiracy.
But what really interested Salander were the forty-seven folders containing close to 9,000 photographs of explicit child pornography. She clicked on image after image of children aged about fifteen or younger. A number of pictures were of infants. The majority were of girls. Many of them were sadistic.
She found links to at least a dozen people abroad who traded child porn with one another.
Salander bit her lip, but her face was otherwise expressionless.
She remembered the nights when, as a twelve-year-old, she had been strapped down in a stimulus-free room at St. Stefan’s. Teleborian had come into the room again and again to look at her in the glow of the night light.
She knew. He had never touched her, but she had always known.
Okay? The pics where there on his computer. Plague just made a copy of it. They did NOT plant child porn on his computer. It's that simple. Deal with it. Read the books and then make up your mind. Lisbeth has problems, she is scarred, she isn't completely healthy, but she isn't a sociopath. It's that simple.
"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus
Just because Plague COULD plant the porn does not mean he did. Teleborian clearly watches child porn and Plague gets the signal. These events are clearly shown. There should be no doubt here.
shareShe might have some diagnosis, such as Asperger's syndrome, but she is mot a psychopath. A psychopath is incapable of feeling compassion and guilt and has no conscience. But Lisbeth clearly feels guilt when she realizes that her friend Miariam Wu was abducted and severely beaten instead of her.
shareHer defense was able to discredit the testimony's against her (through illegal, possibly false means (the child porn on Teleborian's laptop)),
Her defense was able to discredit Teleborian's testimony by proving it was definitively wrong and falsified.
First, by proving Teleborian lied (or his memory was so faulty as to make anything he said questionable) about the number of days Lisbeth was restrained. Not wrong by a little bit, but wrong by being a tiny fraction of the truth.
Second, by proving that his professional evaluation of her description of the rape as an over the top fantasy of a severely emotionally disturbed woman who was clearly unable to distinguish reality from fiction was totally and utterly wrong, and that the rape happened exactly as she said it did.
And third, by proving that Teleborian's most recent psychiatric evaluation, the one as to her current state of mind, was written, edited, and e-mailed back and forth with members of the Secret Service a month before he was even allowed to see her, and was thus falsified.
There is nothing in the movie that suggests the defense was even aware of the child porn on his computer, let alone needed it to discredit him.
Since you so clearly misunderstood how her defense discredited the testimony against her, it seems possible to me that you are basing your speculations on your misunderstanding of other parts of the movie as well.
"There is nothing in the movie that suggests the defense was even aware of the child porn on his computer, let alone needed it to discredit him. "
But Plague and Mikael worked together on "finding" the child porn on TB's computer. They then used that "evidence" against him. While Salander's lawyer was not aware of it, that doesn't mean it wasn't used as part of Salander's defense (at least as far as the most literal translation of her defense goes) because it did help defend Salander.
And yes, the defense was able to prove that TB lied about how many days Salander was restrained, and they were able to prove that Salander had actually been raped by her guardian. However, I don't remember the defense proving your third point, but I'll take your word for it. But would you agree that when TB had the charges against him for child pornography, that pretty much sealed the defense's case?
The court also ignores the fact that Salander confesses to going to her father's home to murder him, which I found convenient. Do Zalachenko deserve to die? Probably, but I think, morally speaking, it should have been left to the legal system, not Salander, to make that decision (I'm not sure if they have the death penalty in Sweden, maybe a bunch of life sentences).
Aside from this last point (about Salander's confession), the court made the right decision in throwing out the case based on the evidence they were presented, essentially finding Salander innocent. But I don't think the audience can so easily find Salander innocent of sane (and safe) mind. Based on all of the evidence WE see, I think it is plausible to make the case that Salander is a dangerous sociopath.
But Plague and Mikael worked together on "finding" the child porn on TB's computer. They then used that "evidence" against him. While Salander's lawyer was not aware of it, that doesn't mean it wasn't used as part of Salander's defense (at least as far as the most literal translation of her defense goes) because it did help defend Salander.
Plague and Mikael worked together to get into his computer, yes, but to find evidence of the conspiracy. Specifically, in fact, the evidence used in my third point that you don't recall but take my word for, that is, the evidence he wrote and emailed her psych eval a month before even seeing her. The child porn was a windfall because it led to his arrest, sure, but it played no part at all in her defense.
But would you agree that when TB had the charges against him for child pornography, that pretty much sealed the defense's case?
Not at all, and no court would, either. That is evidence of a crime he committed, but it is not exculpatory, or even relevant to the charges against Salander. It might serve to discredit the witness, but the witness' testimony, every bit of it, had already been proven wrong, and in the case of the psych eval, intentionally falsified, an act of perjury. He was already discredited.
The court also ignores the fact that Salander confesses to going to her father's home to murder him,
She never confessed to going to his home to murder him. She specifically denied going to her father's home to murder him. When asked if hitting her father in the face with an axe was attempted murder, she said specifically that it was self defense.
Based on all of the evidence WE see, I think it is plausible to make the case that Salander is a dangerous sociopath.
Everything I saw in the movies, (which I saw before reading the books) makes it very clear that she is perfectly content to leave the world alone if the world would STFU and get off her back. She just wants to be left the hell alone. The only reason she even went after Zala was because he had Miriam beat up trying to find her and because she knew he was somehow tied in with her being framed for murder.
There is nothing even slightly sociopathic about her. She has a borderline personality disorder, and is anti-social, and, poor thing, needs a luggage carousel to handle her emotional baggage, but she is not a danger to herself or others, is empathetic, capable of feeling remorse, emotional pain, and love, and has very strong and clear moral boundaries, even if they are not 100% in alignment with those of society. In other words, not a sociopath. We see all of that in the movie.
"And yes, the defense was able to prove that TB lied about how many days Salander was restrained, and they were able to prove that Salander had actually been raped by her guardian. However, I don't remember the defense proving your third point, but I'll take your word for it. But would you agree that when TB had the charges against him for child pornography, that pretty much sealed the defense's case? "
Watch the movie again. The first point is disallowed by the judge as it happened many years ago. However, the 2nd and 3rd points were true. It is clearly shown in the movie. There are quite a few lines explaining the third point. That third point is the final nail.
The child porn stuff came up later and was used by the police to arrest him. That had nothing directly to do with this trial.
"The court also ignores the fact that Salander confesses to going to her father's home to murder him, which I found convenient. Do Zalachenko deserve to die? Probably, but I think, morally speaking, it should have been left to the legal system, not Salander, to make that decision (I'm not sure if they have the death penalty in Sweden, maybe a bunch of life sentences)."
She went there to collect proof, not to kill (with that stun gun, hahahaha). And her pleas of self-defense was accepted. She was SHOT by zalachenko. Did you see the movie?
Who's WE?
No, there are two aspects here:
1. the testimony of teleborian was proved wrong by the fact that he had prepared his report of Lisbeth even before meeting her.
2. The child pronography on his computer is a different aspect and it is used to arrest him.
Read the novel for a clearer idea of Salander's character as the court scene with Teleborian was very poorly done in the film: in the novel it is much clearer that Teleborian's diagnosis of Lisbeth is based on nothing and is very prejudiced, while the film doesn't even go to the effort of proving the truth in any part of Lisbeth's auto biography (apart from the rape)
sharemaybe. i'm talking about the movie. Haven't read the book.
shareI don't how she kept her mouth shut when I'd have been screaming how come you are accusing me of murdering someone I couldn't have because my defence lawyer was in the same room as me when the person was killed
shareIt's not illegal to be a sociopath.
shareSorry this is nonsence, she has a clear idea of right and wrong, one she doesn't shoot the biker at Burmans place, she shoots him in the foot as he hasn't really done anything to her that would cause her to kill him. She then doesn't kill Neiderman, though she does set it up.
shareVery interesting thread.
I've read the book also, so hopefully I can focus specifically on the film.
I'm of the opinion that Salander is crazy. While she has been abused by the system continuously, her mental problems might even be a result of this.
At best, she has shown herself to be a vigilante with her punishments of Wernerstrom and her brother.
She used the prosecution against her and it's dramatic conclusion to her benefit so that she would be released from psychiatric care.
I'll have to disagree. I've also read all three books. It's well known that the translation of Larsson's Triology into English is heavily criticized. There's nowhere in these books Larson wrote, where it's even close to Salander should be as you say crazy. The authorities might think so yes, but for those few people she let in, it's quite clear it's the opposite. Her employer doesn't. She's a heavily damage and traumatized young woman but she's defintely not crazy. That is if you follow the concept of the word.
I also find it strange with "the punishment" of her brother or rather half-brother. He's trying to kill her several times and she had the possibilty to kill him with the same bayonet he was trying to kill her first with in the abandoned factory - but she didn't. Despite he was nailed to the ground. When it comes to Wennerström I don't see the punishment from a crazy woman. She transferred his money to different accounts in a false name, money he had "earned" by trafficking, selling drugs and weapons. That's smart - not crazy.
"She used the prosecution against her and it's dramatic conclusion to her benefit so that she would be released from psychiatric care."
Excuse me? Have you actually watched the movie? Her lawyer showed the DVD where she's raped anally for the jury. That should be enough, wouldn't you say so? She was a victim of a secret organisation within SÄPO, the Swedish Security Police who tried to have her commited in psyciatric care for life to cover up for her father Zalachenko when he ran errands for them as a spy. I'll suggest you watch it again.
I think Asperger's Syndrome is the more appropriate diagnosis for Lisbeth. She's isolated, fearful, has trouble bonding emotionally with others, is extremely talented in certain specific areas, etc. Those characteristics all fit pretty well into Asperger's.
"Love isn't what you say or how you feel, it's what you DO". (The Last Kiss)