Erik + Ravens Sleep Together?
So we are to assume that Erik/Magneto has taken Raven's/Mystique's virginity when they sleep together at the Xavier School?
shareI suppose the public can suppose anything it want
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MovieChat Forums > X: First Class (2011) Discussion > Erik + Ravens Sleep Together?
He either kissed her and sent her away, or they had sex. And if they had sex, I think probably it was Raven/Mystique's first time. It seemed like Charles kept her pretty close -- close enough that she wouldn't spend time with other guys -- but thought of her strictly as a sister.
I was sort of disgusted with Raven when she chose to go with Erik on the beach. Maybe because she thought she was "Erik's woman"? And then how crushing when he so blatantly offered the position of bed-buddy to Emma Frost at the end. Or maybe she agreed with Erik's argument about the future of humans and mutants. But regardless, because of Erik, Charles was shot; Erik is taking off with the group who are clearly the villains (after they watched Azazel murder all those agents right in front of them!) -- and that's who Mystique chooses to run off with? I wouldn't have much to say to her after that.
Pretty much why I hate the character and find it unbelievable how up her butt everyone is in these movies.
"Oh, she ditched me, bleeding, on a beach, to go off with this guy she's known for a couple weeks but I miss her soooo much!"
What the characters are telling us to think about her vs. what we as an audience see is completely different.
I liked the character, and portrayal and the relationship the trio had with each other
I may have even shipped them (Erik and Raven) a bit... but I do agree that the parting at the beach was bad. They should've had more snippets of Erik and Raven talking and interacting throughout the movie (the few scenes they had were great, but they needed at least to double the amount), and Raven inclining more and more to Eriks points of view. And maybe a little more of the kind of clashes she and Charles had at the manor during the night before the final showdown. Then it would've made sense.
and I think considering the short few seconds/minutes the interactions they had in the movie lasted, I don't think it would've amde the movie too long if they had doubled, tripled, or even quadrupled the interactions we see. I mean yeah we are probably meant to think that they did spend a lot more time like that together, but we should've seen some more.
Also the goodbye at the beach should've been handled a bit differently from Charles too the "go with him, it's what you want" is kinda weird reaction.
(perhaps the immobilization should've been handled differently too, like it having nothing to do with Erik. Perhaps Charles should've been immobilized while saving Alex's life.
Which also might explain why Scott later always so stoically and unflichincly stands by him, the teacher/mentor/father figure who saved his brothers in a manner that was ready to exchange his life for him too )
I'm sorry, but if you ditch the man you've seen as a brother for 18 years, WOUNDED on a beach in a foreign country, to go off with a guy you've known for a couple weeks AND a couple people you watched commit an act of mass murder, I really can't like you.
More interaction between Raven and Erik might've helped a little, but not enough to excuse her behavior.
Your idea about Alex and Scott definitely sounds like it could've been an intriguing plot point, though.
Yeah I think that is kind of what I meant that the whole beach scene should've been handled differently. Definately more Erik/Raven interaction throughout the movie and
preferably a different way of Charles getting paralyzed. Possibly the Alex & Scott thing I mentioned or perhaps by some accident or deliberate (though) misguided shot or otherwise by non-mutants (well the bullet did come from the CIA agents gun but I meant the others on the ships etc.)
while possibly saving mutant(s). Possibly combining those Saving Alex from a misguided fire from those they were trying to save. That might provoke Raven to thinking/saying something along the lines of "I can't wholeheartedly believe this harmony thinking you have going on. Look what they tried to do to Alex, and did to you!" And this would sort of tear them apart her unwillingness to forgive something done to someone she held dear even when he still wanted to do so.
I mean I suppose I have a soft spot for them, I do like them in both iterations as characters and even as a couple (yes I know what the X men are a metaphor of and have nothing against that but still I kind of like them).
Also I might be a little forgiving knowing they had to separate from the group so I knew it was coming one way or another and wanted perhaps to overlook some flaws
Lets be honest, after X3 and Spiderman 3 my expectations were so low that I guess I was so in awe of an actually good movie in the franchise again(I also had had my doubts of these guys replacing McKellen and Stewart) I may have rose tinted glasses.
Like the first time I saw Star Wars Episode VII (I've come to notice its problems now, but I still like it)
Then again I suppose nobody said that they'd have to go away in the first movie I suppose it could've been an entire and very different trilogy with this team with Magneto and Mystique growing more and more radical until they up and leave at the end of the 3rd movie. Yeah that could've been good too.
And yeah I suppose the recruiting of Hellfire Club/Brotherhood on the beach was wrong move from that outlook
Perhaps they should've lurked away and after the parting of ways on the beach when Magneto goes to release Emma Frost they could've been shown there (alternatively Erik and Raven go alone to possibly release her and she makes a mention of a couple of guys looking for a job now... it could be left to interpretation whether she meant the other Hellfire club or Sabertooth and Toad or others.
Or perhaps not. Eric and Raven could've walked to the sunset together and start recruiting later. Any of these would've been better than the instant flip on the beach.
Also its possible that they (Erik and Raven) were not made to look entirely/very sympathetic on purpose, after all they are the antagonists of the first movie and have their schemes in the second one as well. (and both of those plots were kinda horrible too)
Magneto is debatable on being sympathetic, since he changes allegiance about halfway through every movie. You'd think they'd come up with something new by now.
Raven, though, it's pretty clear we're supposed to actually LIKE her and have sympathy for her. That's back to my original post.
We're supposed to be rooting for her to have a change of heart in DOFP, and she's supposed to be this mutant "hero" in Apocalypse. The three main male characters- Charles, Erik and Hank- all are hung up on her in some way after twenty years. She's a hero! She's so wonderful!
Um, no. She's not wonderful, she ditched her brother figure when he could've been dying. And then she ditched him AGAIN (leaving him to clean up the mess) after helping create that disaster at the White House (yeah, Erik was a big part of that, but chasing her down is why he was out of prison in the first place).
And she's NOT a hero. That plot point in Apocalypse was the dumbest work around I've ever seen. How, by any stretch of the imagination, would a shape shifter pointing a gun at the president (yes, I know she was aiming for Trask, but how is an uninformed Joe Shmoe watching that happen on television going to look at that?) result in mutants being more accepted? If anything, the government would've started looking at other options to take care of a threat. Obviously not the Sentinels, which were proven ineffective, but something else. They would've understood the VERY near miss they just had and started to look for other ways to neutralize mutants. The terrible future from DOFP would've happened even sooner.
But no, we're told Raven is a "hero," and then watch as she's welcomed back to the mansion with open arms. As an audience member I was rolling my eyes.
How, by any stretch of the imagination, would a shape shifter pointing a gun at the president (yes, I know she was aiming for Trask, but how is an uninformed Joe Shmoe watching that happen on television going to look at that?)
The public didn't see her pointing a gun in the president's direction. That happened in the bunker, before Magneto opened it up and pointed the cameras at it. Yes, government officials could have revealed the details of what happened in the bunker, but it's also possible Xavier removed that aspect from their minds or convinced them to remain silent on it so that Joe Shmoe wouldn't have an opportunity to misinterpret that by explaining the situation.
When she pointed a gun at Trask in front of the cameras, which I know is what you are referring to, Nixon was in the back of the crowd and not remotely visible in the shot. There was, however, a clear path to Trask so it should have been evident that she aiming at him to most home viewers. Since it was then widely reported that the government arrested Trask, it could have been implied/speculated/directly claimed that she was trying to help the government by going after a traitor.
It really depends on how things are framed. In today's world especially, we see people who lack nuance make irrational comments akin to what you think would happen, but their statements are fueled more by propaganda than anything. Look at McCarthyism and how quickly it was able to lose ground once the news turned on him, as an example.
So if a news source decided to go on regular rants about how Mystique was trying to kill the president, (or a news source allowed public figures to do so) while screaming about how all mutants are dangerous then, yes, you'd have a lot of "regular" people who would "see" it that way. Otherwise, not so much, especially in a pre-digital world where individual crazies can't easily put out their own propaganda.
If anything, the government would've started looking at other options to take care of a threat. Obviously not the Sentinels, which were proven ineffective, but something else. They would've understood the VERY near miss they just had and started to look for other ways to neutralize mutants. The terrible future from DOFP would've happened even sooner.
There's a line that's cut from the movie where, after everything is said and done, Nixon says that they're going to need some of those mutants on their side (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C754Jb97I8). Although not canon, itself, the newspaper contained a quote from him where he said he looked forward to working with this new race and that sort of seems to be the option they went with. "X-men: Apocalypse" didn't explain it very well, but we saw that the government knew about Xavier and his school. They had people nearby, monitoring what was going on there; that that's the only action they took suggests that perhaps some sort of deal was worked out with Xavier to let him operate the school and work toward forming a team to combat problem mutants. We also saw that, at the least, they still greenlit Stryker's research to weaponize mutants and had been working on developing new, mutant-related technologies (power suppression fields, area effect knock out weapons, and something to track telepathic powers). They further had agents monitoring mutant related activity throughout the world.
I am surprised they didn't do more in the form of, for example, creating their own non-manipulated mutant unit that the public was made aware of, but I also get the difficulty inherent in having to devote screen time to showing the U.S. try to use their own mutants against Apocalypse when the X-men are supposed to be the focus and so much was needed setting up all of the new characters they had already.
In any case, that's really their best option. The problem the government has is that technological solutions to deal with mutants as a collective are decades off so the only thing that can truly challenge them in the time they are in is other mutants. share
Wow, you have some really good points. Especially about Raven being seen as helping to expose Trask.
Still hate the character, but again, awesome points!
" since he changes allegiance about halfway through every movie. "
Unless you're only talking about the new trilogy that is not true.
Not in first one. In that one he is unwavering. The second one the situation is more
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend". The third one suffered a lot from Singer leaving to botch a Superman movie and the new script combining like three storylines... so whatever happens there doesn't count in my book (nor Singers nor the guy directing First Class. He flat out said so).
Also even in this second trilogy changing allegiance and having temporary allies are two different things (and considering the situation from which Apocalypse recruited him in AOA we could forgive him for not thinking very straightforwardly).
Xavier and Magneto are often seen as MLK and Malcolm X of the mutant world and Magneto pursues mutant rights (though in a shakespearian tragedy way, or at least what is attempted as such he becomes what he fought against and suffered under a suppremacist)
by (Malcolms words) "Any means necessary"
Yes the beach scene the way it was done was very detrimental to how we're supposed to see Mystique I agree, despite liking her I totally understand.
I think I like the character concept, even if I admit that the execution of that concept sucked.
Though one other point rose to mind from your previous post (that we discussed upon, but perhaps this aspect wasn't given enough thought... though the film didn't show it enough either)
"...but if you ditch the man you've seen as a brother for 18 years, WOUNDED on a beach in a foreign country, to go off with a guy you've known for a couple week..."
One of the things/themes here was supposed to be (and I think what really drew Raven to Erik) was that both Charles and Hank wanted her to adapt, to look "normal", to hide herself at the very least so it puts the non-mutants at ease.
(again the not-so-subtle metaphor on civil rights and homophobia)
Logically speaking very understandable and in Charles's mind it probably meant "for now... so the non-mutants can get used to the idea of us differents in rising degrees"
Although not so sure about that, even Charles referred to Ravens real look as a "cosmetic problem" (yeah he pauses for a second realizing its gonna be offensive, but he still says it, and the pause may imply he was gonna use a more offensive term) and how Hank had found a solution to it and his phrasing clearly urges her to take it.
(or even if that isn't what the character meant or should mean that is very easily the image one could get into their head)
I'm sorry no matter how much of an adoptive step brother you've been to me THAT alone could justify for breaking off relations completely
(Ok, personally I might not be that drastic but I couldn't blame anyone who did).
Just try to imagine how someone in that situation must feel hearing Charles's words?
"... so after all this time even you (the most important person in my life for years and the closest friend/relative/something else I've ever have) admit that you have never seen my true self, my true form as acceptable, as normal... or something that should be". The hurt, the feeling of betrayal (not to mention the words make Charles sound like a hypocrite even if he didn't mean it that way. COSMETIC problem!?)...
Again that ALONE would be justification enough to go with Erik (though not enough to leave Charles bleeding on the beach... at least not in the way it happened that I will always grant you). Though they should've explored that side more as well.
I suppose it is possible they were trying to be subtle about it and thus hide it for the keener eyed to see. But if so that was the wrong moment/theme to be coy about.
Hank, when trying to push the "cure" to her says pretty straightforwardly something like "you're/were beautiful like this" (when they were in "human" form).
Erik was mesmerized and attracted to her as she was "By the way... if I looked like you, I wouldn't change anything". "Have you ever seen a tiger and thought it ought to cover it up?".
Erik seriously seems to be the only one who accepts her completely as she is.
As mentioned above Xavier and Magneto are often referenced as MLK and (a bit more radical) Malcolm X
And though Xaviers side is often treated as the guys who are right, here they may have even intentionally criticized the sometimes seen "uncle tom" approach of the X/MLK way.
Or it at least can be interpreted that way
So from this point of view Mystique going with Erik makes complete sense in theory.
And I do think that it would've made complete, or more sense in practice if
a)they had shown more interaction snippets throughout the movie and
b) the beach scene had been handled at least a bit differently
(preferably so that Magneto wasn't directly/indirectly responsible for the paralysis
and perhaps even that they didn't leave them on the beach but left after escorting
Charles to hospital... I wouldn't be surprised if that (hospital) was among the original ideas, but had to be cut for time/budget)
And yeah complete sense doesn't mean that we would've been left thinking that Erik and Raven are the heroes/ just as much heroes as Xaviers troops, but rather we would've know that they have now stepped to the path that leads to the "dark side" and walk away from the heroes to become antagonists of the future, but it would've made them definately more sympathetic even as villains in progress. Could've probably tempered your response as well (which again is completely understandable of the way it was handled, I'm only musing of the could've beens). And maybe it does a bit, if you fairly consider what I brought up about Charles/Erik and Hank seeing/interracting with Raven
Again the execution is problematic, but may be you can agree that the idea/theory behind it wasn't (doesn't have to make you like the finished result any better, but there it is). And if not, fair enough everyone is entitled to their opinion and
your present one is no more wrong or right than mine. I just wanted to bring up an aspect that you too may have overlooked (actually I often over look it too when thinking about the movie, it came to me for... possibly the first time just this morning)
Not responding to DOFP and AOA now,... those are not really this posts topic.
You do have good points about them yes. I liked the movies as a whole, though they do have problems. DOFP should for instance have been a third movie with one in-between (I don't get why FC and DOFP have a decade between them and we don't get to see anything that went on there).
I think you have some good points with the "could've beens" especially with the beach scene in First Class. But I will add something here:
Raven was very excited about a "cure." She vocalized this to the others. Charles, not reading her mind, as he promised he wouldn't, has no other information to go by unless she speaks of it. He still believes that she WANTS to look normal, because she hadn't said otherwise until that night when his (now adult) sister-figure shows up naked in the kitchen. It's enough to make any guy uncomfortable. And then she gets mad at him for wanting to be a part of the world? Shame on him for letting everybody have their free will to decide what they think is pretty or not! Society should try to be more like mutants! (She says that last part to Hank, remember?)
And Hank too, the poor guy. He basically thinks he's got the greatest gift ever for her: a normal life. That's what she TOLD him she wanted. Hell yeah, he's upset with her for throwing his gift back in his face. And he's being honest with her- the world won't ever see her as "beautiful." Yeah, it's upsetting, but it's the truth.
Wanting to kill everybody who doesn't think you're pretty is a very, very crazy extreme. And that's the bare-bones of the philosophy she turns to afterwards, by going off with Erik. I don't see that as likable, but again, in DOFP and Apocalypse...
So the thing is, if she stayed a villain after First Class I'd be cool with her actions, I really would. She's supposed to be a bad guy, and FC was her fall from grace into villainy. Bad guys don't have to be likable in that way. If the next movie (which I agree with you, should've taken place between FC and DOFP) we see her being a bad guy, I'm all for that. It would make sense as a continuation of her story.
I would love to see Raven as the villain she's supposed to be from the comics. She's not a silent ninja like the original trilogy, and she's not this hero figure that they have her as in Apocalypse. She's an independent operator and a self-serving bitch who screws everyone over when it suits her. I thought that's where they were going with it after First Class, but the way they did a one-eighty and had her become a mutant savior was a major disappointment and again, made me feel like I was supposed to "forget" what a crappy thing she did in First Class. It's also a huge disservice to the source material, but that's neither here nor there.
I also just want to say how awesome it's been to have a discussion without anyone getting abusive towards each other. Thank you!
Yeah you're right about Raven being interested, possibly even very excited about the possibility of the "cure". At least outwardly, and yes, Charles not reading her mind probably would've taken her word for it. Might say something about him living with someone for nearly two decades and not noticing when she is possibly not saying the entire truth in important matters. I mean yeah we guys can be daft about girls and emotion blind and all but still.
(and I think he is supposed to be pretty good with people even without telepathy).
I think there are times when Raven also says things that should tip off Charles that she is not entirely on board with his philosophy. Like when she is asking him about her looks earlier and quoting sarcastically the "mutant and proud" line, or asking if it only applies to pretty ones or invisible ones like his. And Charles really quite insensitively brushes her off, doesn't even seem to be listening.
yeah I suppose the first time he may have been working on his thesis and was maybe in a hurry, though the way Raven started talking of those things made me think it wasn't the first time, and possibly Charles had brushed her off before as well.
Hank had known her a shorter time so sure him being confused about the seemingly abrupt mood change is more understandable. Though even though I think I'm blind to much of the moods of both the opposite sex and even my own even I know saying something like "you're/were beutiful now" masking as something else could very well be insulting/hurtful even if she has thought so before with the logical part of her brain
And I totally understand that a guy who not only likes and appreciates her openly for who she is without asking any change, even opposing vehemetly such a change could pull her towards him mentally and physically.
And sure it may not make sense but when do emotions ever. One may know something to be probably true or even 100% true and still not like it/find it hurtful.
(again, in theory I think most of how everything goes according to the path that the script presents as is perfectly legit... aside the stupid final beach scene... its the execution that has flaws).
"his (now adult) sister-figure shows up naked in the kitchen. It's enough to make any guy uncomfortable" I don't have siblings but this I can agree with still, I'm sure =P
"And then she gets mad at him for wanting to be a part of the world?"
Well this is the part of the clashing philosophies (and the real life philosophies behind them... though ofcourse Malcolms was cranked up to 11). More then upset about him wanting to be a part of the world she could be upset about him seemingly wanting her to be as "nonthreatening" normal looking as the society wants her to be.
I can understand both parties
" Society should try to be more like mutants! (She says that last part to Hank, remember?)"
Yeah this could also reflect on how we sometimes may think on things even if we
know that freedom of opinion is in the end a good thing.
Possibly also a commentary on hypocratic intolerance towards the intolerant sometimes found on the side of the tolerant
(for example in my parish I've met and heard opinions from the so called liberal side of my parish (and I do think of myself as liberal though I'd rather not associate myself with this bunch) who have expressed thoughts that anyone who doesn't share their liberal opinions on... for example female clergy and homosexuals should get the f' out
essentially not tolerating anyone with less liberal views than theirs)
Okay discussing Magnetos philosophy here I'm asking for a little patience, because I'm afraid I might sound as if I'm defending something horrible which I'm not, or at least don't mean to. I think that something you said is somewhat an oversimplification
And that perhaps/probably his philosophy wasn't always as radical and possibly never became quite as radical as a glancing view makes it seem (though it very well could've if his rise to power succeeded and his goal achieved, even if he didn't originally meant to)
"Wanting to kill everybody who doesn't think you're pretty is a very, very crazy extreme." I think this is a bit unfair , or would be if I thought you were completely serious. Looks have nothing to do with that... Also its possible Raven began to subscribe Magnetos thoughs on mutant supremacy, but still didn't quite know how radical his philosophy was (perhaps it hadn't even molded to its final form during those times,though obviously he already was a mutant supremacist).
Yes Magnetos philosophys barebones ultimately go to similar supremacy that he himself suffered from. Though I'm not sure that killing all non mutants really entered his mind until X2 (I think he always spoke of mutant supremacy, not necessarily exterminating the "lessers"). Yes he expected a war between mutants and humans and would have no qualms killing his enemies in said war, but once the war was over and mutants firmly in power
I don't know if he originally had extermination in mind. Yes the "lessers" would serve the "betters" and probably have a much better life under their masters in his mind but not sure if he foresaw a genocide of the non mutants as the unavoidable..."final solution". In reality that is very possibly how it would've ended in that scenario if mutants prevailed (in fairness though if the war happened and mutants lost it would've been a possibility to end up in mutant genocide too... that is I believe part of the story arc of DOFP in all medias different versions of it have aired), but still not certain that he thought of it as a certainty or even a probability during those years, or even at the time of the firs X-men movie. Because I think Magnetos tragic arc is supposed to be a personification of the proverb "road to hell is paved with good intentions". And that wouldn't be the case if he was planning from the get go the horror he wittnessed and experienced.
I remember a rather lowkey but impressive monologue by Magneto in the cartoon right before he attempts to murder Senator Kelly (which ofc doesn't happen in the cartoon)
*senator has just pleaded for his life* "Be quiet!... When I was a boy I saw men butchered, women and children... each night I swore to myself never again!.....
but we must prevail... goodbye senator"
I think that reflects Magnetos path from after the camps to present. He wants and seeks safety to his kind and isn't afraid to secure it how he sees necessary, and is ready to kill any non-mutant who stands in the way of that goal, but perhaps he isn't quite as radical yet as later. Perhaps, for a long time he doesn't necessarily even think that the war is a definate outcome and perhaps he sees himself and his kind as magnanimous in victory as well once power is secured (magnanimous at least in not creating another holocaust...) and that I do think he holds onto up until X2 at least.
In the first Xmen movie his plan was to activate the thing that was supposed to turn the people of New York City to mutants. I think it was also during a meet of wolrd leaders there, so they would turn to mutants as well. Now we can think what we want of this twisted plan, and the sacrificial lamb it required (and yes Wolverine was right to point out his hypocrisy) but at the very least he didn't want to mass slaughter them, I'm guessing the plan was that once world leaders were all mutants the powers would firmly be in mutant hands
(This may have even been an attempt to prevent the war by pre-emptively transfering the
power to mutant hands)
Yes he and Sebastian Shaw with that final dialogue talk of the "doomed race" but I'm not certain if they already talked of killing all or even most humans. Yes Magneto never has problems with killing opposing non-mutants but I'm not sure that he was ever, according to official comic/cartoon/original movie canon
Even in X2 I'm not sure the attempted genocide was premeditated on Magnetos part, he saw an opportunity with the half-a-Cerebro Stryker had somehow built, and took it after the previous "user" (Colonel Stryker I mean, not Xavier) had tried the exact opposite.
or he may have been plannning it after learning that Stryker a)had a half Cerebro
and had captured Charles, and possibly guessing what Stryker was attempting to do
so premeditated but not very long, I doubt he could've actually come up with such a plan himself, or means to execute it. Whether improvising with a chance he saw at the base or planning it after learning and guessing what Stryker was up to, I think we can also notice the circumstance that he had just seen an attempted genocide towards his side and/or had known such was coming, for a rather short time and violently countered which can be understood with his backround (possibly could be without). Note I said understood not forgiven I'm not excusing attempted genocide n:o 2
two wrongs don't make a right, but backround and circumstance can explain something, though certainly not forgive.
It is also mentioned in the main X-Men comic series at one point when Magneto ,suffering from amnesia, asks Xavier (he had just saved a subway car full of people who had been trapped underground and encountered only hatred partially because the people recognized him, and blamed him for what had happened... though at that point I don't think it was his fault). "The hatred in their eyes... what kind of a man was I?"
And Xavier tells him of his past as suffering persecution and how afterwards he wanted to protect anyone coming after those he held dear and his kind in general...
And Xavier also put it in the way that he had noble intentions but in time slipped into
more and more rash actions. And I think that is the way we are meant to understand it as truth
(yes movie might be a different format and a different backstory and we can certainly debate if we agree on what the comic is trying to feed us as the truth, but if that is the creators view I think that is how were supposed to see him, in theory. Yes definately not anything like a hero but a tragic character, perhaps first lapsing into antihero and then finally to villain... but not simply as evil)
Now I think also that the new movies were an attempt in theory to make Magneto and Mystique not as evil or definate villains in the aftermath of the First Class (possibly also so that they could team up with the X-Men throughout the new trilogy, or however long the new movie series would be).
And who knows, perhaps Mathew Vaughn, had he been permitted to direct the rest of the movies would not have made Mystique the hero character she was (yes Mathew was writing the DOFP but Singer may have edited and changed it as either he saw fit or the studio did after it became apparent how popular the new Mystique was with the fans(speculation I admit).
While I don't think that there was any chance of her becoming "a self-serving bitch who screws everyone over when it suits her" as you put it (and perhaps she is not meant to be seen only as such a duplicious character in the comics either... but perhaps she still is whatever was meant).
It is possible that she wasn't supposed to become the hero character she did become and I agree that the fact she was made such was a major mistake. I liked her as Magnetos lieutenant, right hand "man" and so forth in the originals. I really thought that she would with Magneto (and maybe independently too) walk among the villains, though perhaps as somewhat sympathetic also. Heck that doesn't need much I felt honestly for her when she beat the *beep* out of Senator Kelly in the first movie and half whispered/half-growled at him "it was because of people like you I was afraid to go to school as a child". There bam! a few seconds spoken in fury and I still felt sympathy and saw her as a more than one dimentional villain.
They could've even made it so that throughout the new movies she sometimes second guesses her choice, but never actually goes back to be a full on hero character. And maybe also grows more and more independent (I would've also forgiven alot of the "hero path" even in AOA if at the end sequence when Magneto leaves the School ,after he and Charles have the (admittedly cool) reference verbal exchange of their parting words, at the end of the first movie, if Mystique then had then left with him.
"I also just want to say how awesome it's been to have a discussion without anyone getting abusive towards each other. Thank you!"
I totally agree, and I know how rare that sometimes/often can be in interned discussions and thank you too! =)
I agree with you on Magneto- he's carrying some emotional baggage. The backstory they've fleshed out for him definitely makes him a complex character that you feel sympathy for... sometimes. I'm hoping that if I ever went through something like what he did, I wouldn't come out of it hellbent on revenge and thinking killing more people was the answer. A holocaust survivor who believes in a master race is just dripping in irony, isn't it?
I feel like the character of Mystique got hijacked following the rise in popularity of Jennifer Lawrence. At the end of FC the character seemed set to go down a dark path with Erik (again, that missing movie we mentioned in between that we both would've liked to have seen...), and then The Hunger Games came out. The next story line was chosen to be Mystique-centric on purpose to capitalize on this, and then Apocalypse turned her into a hero figure that, to be honest, has shades of Katniss Everdeen written all over it. It's a big disappointment, and again, a disservice to the comics. It would've been better to see her as a grey area character- mostly a villain who occasionally does offer a helping hand when it suits her (kinda like Magneto in X2). But not a role model for mutants, and definitely not the leader of the X-Men.
"I'm hoping that if I ever went through something like what he did, I wouldn't come out of it hellbent on revenge and thinking killing more people was the answer"
Yeah that would be hard. We cant all be Nelson Mandela, Gandhi or Jesus.
But if it helps we can always remember the wisdom of Oscar Wilde when he said
"Always forgive your enemies... nothing annoys them more" =P
"A holocaust survivor who believes in a master race is just dripping in irony, isn't it?"
Yes, both dripping with irony and really tragic at the same time, when we consider the character arc.
" The Hunger Games came out. The next story line was chosen to be Mystique-centric on purpose to capitalize on this,"
...Huh... I never thought of that (sure I thought it probably had something to do with rising popularity of both Jennifer Lawrence and her portrayal of Mystique, but for some reason I never assosiated with the popularity of her Katniss character...even though, now that you mentioned it, it seems obvious). Truly a shame and makes me again wish they had chosen another actress for Katniss, especially since I know a couple of really good(not that Lawrence isn't good) youth actresses, even closer to Katniss-characters real age auditioned for the part. Could've given people other good portrayals of that character and left Mystique alone to grow into something else undisturbed.
Not sure if I agree that Mystiques storyline has shades of Katniss as in truly the Katniss character, but definately her boosting to the whatever freedom fighter hero
was due to that. (at least Katniss was a reluctant herofreedomfighter-figure whatever, it seems that the Mystique of AOA embraces the mission).
I don't blame Jennifer for this. Chances are she never asked for something like that, her other roles in the acting indie circuit (even though she hadn't played a straight up villain before I think) make me believe that she was cool and eager to play versatile roles and had done so, and while I think that the new series of X-Men movies that FC booted up were gonna portray Mystique as more sympathetic and softer(at least in the beginning) than the original trilogy (and I have nothing against that either in theory) the Hero path was truly lamentable especially when, in that continuity she seems to switch sides back to X-Men at the end of AOA. Perhaps the leader of X-Men is a bit overexaggeration, but a prominent team member and, if what we saw at the end of AOA was a beginning of a training session, a drill sergeant of sorts?
(or perhaps you meant leader of a/the field team, as in she is now the predecessor of Cyclops in the continuity of AOA?).
And Again I gotta say some of the disappointment could've been forgiven with a proper ending where Mystique heads out with Magneto again
or on her own, I get what you're saying about the independent operator, but I gotta admit that in both trilogies I really liked the tandem/team of Magneto and Mystique
for several reasons. Also I didn't get any kind of inferior vibe from her acting as Magnetos lieutenant. To me they seemed equals regarding each other with respect and fondness and Mystique only choosing to defer to him by choice, possibly recognizing that he had better planning skills to advance them on this road towards the goal they both were after. As far as I remember Magneto never in the first two movies lashed out at her like I think he did to Sabertooth and Toad when they failed in the first movie.
And the third movie.... best not say anything before I begin to rant. So long story... slightly less long. I don't think it would've been bad if she still headed out with Magneto. Possibly stopping when meeting Charles's gaze and hesitating, but continuing
after a beat to head after Erik/towards the doors, maybe even having a small exchange of words with Charles, but leaving nonetheless.
"(again, that missing movie we mentioned in between that we both would've liked to have seen...)"
Yes. Here I think is also an example of movie/movies that could've shown some of the path Erik and Raven walk as they become more and more convinced of their point of view after suffering setbacks... and possibly other random violence at the hands of non-mutants. Remember that one scene in DOTFP where Magneto and Charles argue (Charles first being angry and accusing Erik of somethign... (I think it was something also partially Raven related). And Erik cuts him off by asking something about where he(Charles) was when *something* and after that rants how many of mutants they both knew are gone(I think mostly/all dead) getting more and more emotional. That could very well have been part of the movie(possibly more than one) between FC and DOTFP.
And on Ravens point of view it could've shown, a bit of the sympathetic/perhaps even "still possible hero" side of her as she walks with Erik on this new road and contemplates her choice and possibly wavers at points, but slowly as they lose ally after ally, friend after friend, or simply witnesses random ant-mutant violence
she begins to fall deeper and deeper to Eriks POV. (maybe even could've been so that one of the mutants on Eriks side, possibly even Angel(the girl was angel right?)
wants to switch back and almost convinces Raven to go too, but then something bad happens, random act of violence, a tragic mishap that kills Angel/whomever and leaver Raven to head back to Erik, convinced that it was intentional and that this again weighs heavily on the side of Eriks arguments.
You know they could've tried to fit part of the good guy/hero angle to this/these intermediate movie(s). It could've worked in context of walking in the darker path and ultimately having a sad conclusion.Giving me an example to bring this up too
"It would've been better to see her as a grey area character"
Something like this for instance:
During the in-between movie(s) she could've acted as a pacifying influence on Erik, kind of like Charles but differently and maybe gotten him to second guess some of his methods goals/way of achieving those goals etc.
(not all the time to the extent that theyd ever go back, or even really too much change their viewpoint but somewhat, perhaps on occasion getting him to get his way in a non violent manner, and possibly leaving the poor sods who opposed them alive), but after repeated perceived attack and insult upon mutants
her attempts grow weaker and less genuine, as she begins to be more and more angry and hurt herself and then by the third act (or some point in the second/another in between movie). She is sent/possibly even volunteers to kill one of those anti-mutant demagogues and does so with impunity (perhaps again this could have a moment similar to what I described earlier "Possibly stopping when meeting Charles's gaze and hesitating, but continuing after a beat to head after Erik/towards the doors, maybe even having a small exchange of words with Charles, but leaving nonetheless".
Or similar moment to Charles trying to stop Erik from killing Shaw at the end of FC, except this time a little closer to succeeding(or perhaps nearly succeeding) due to more closeness and personal history with his adopted little sister.
(possibly a further break could've come from Charles actually in an attempt of desperation tries to get into her head and "for the greater good" tries to stop her (not completely brainwash mind you just stop so that they can get there and save... whoever it is that Raven was going to kill and possibly to "abduct" her back home).
But it fails due to a)Emma Frost being there as a back up, or b) Frost having given Raven some training against such attacks makes her stronger against such an invasion than Charles expected (as Charles is not trying to use his powers in full obviously).
And this good intentioned but seriously misscalculated attempt to do a smaller wrong to save her makes her feel entirely betrayed and finally cements her to Magnetos side.
Raven was very excited about a "cure." She vocalized this to the others. Charles, not reading her mind, as he promised he wouldn't, has no other information to go by unless she speaks of it. He still believes that she WANTS to look normal, because she hadn't said otherwise until that night when his (now adult) sister-figure shows up naked in the kitchen. It's enough to make any guy uncomfortable. And then she gets mad at him for wanting to be a part of the world? Shame on him for letting everybody have their free will to decide what they think is pretty or not! Society should try to be more like mutants! (She says that last part to Hank, remember?)
oh please. its obvious charles did not think her natural reform was remotely pleasing to the eyes.funny how when she asked him if he would date her he easily answered but when she questioned him about dating her in her normal form he could barely give her a straight answer and outright avoided the question altogether. theres a reason why raven was ashamed of her mutant form till she met erik and thats probably because charle subtly enforced that way of thought on her. share
dramatic much? mystique didnt just ditch charles paralayzed without aid on the beach. she went directly towards him to help him and charles himself read her mind and told her she should go with magneto because he knows thats wat she really wants. moira who was a CIA agent was right next to him who clearly was goin to call for back up to help get them off that island. besides i dont think mystique was even aware he was paralyzed.
shareMoira's going to call for help from the people who were just shooting a bunch of missiles at them even after she told them the beach was secure?
And Charles took a bullet to the back, and at relatively short-range too. Paralyzed or not, that's not exactly a wound you can just shake off. The fact that she didn't stick around was callous in the very least.
I honestly don't know why Charles bothers caring about either one of these two. Especially how he, seemingly, brutally killed Logan in DOFP (NOT a Wolverine fan girl, X-Men comic purist, and I haven't seen so much as one MCU movie FYI).
So, Raven's beef with Charles, the brother who was always there for her from childhood, is that he's "too controlling".... When do we see any of this in First Class? When he orders her coke instead of alcohol? When he doesn't want her morphing into blue in public because he'd rather not have a lynch mob chase them down? Meanwhile, he respects her wishes to stay out of her mind. Instead of talking to him in a non-sarcastic, flippant way (I'm thinking about her snippiness as they left the bar near Oxford) about any of these so-called issues, she completely abandons him and is always on the side of the guy willing to kill her without question. Attempting to shoot Mystique sounds a little controlling to me, but what do I know?
Then she comes back in Apocalypse and returns solely to get help for Erik. She has nothing but a disrespectful, dry attitude for Charles ( "This isn't my home. I just lived here".... what?!!!!). Despite everything she has done, Charles still has love for her, but she's nothing more than an ingrate who needs backup to assist Erik in his current round of stupidity. Seriously, if Hank had even hinted that her blue self was pretty that night in her room, he could've made a straight up sex slave out of this chick.
Erik takes hypocrite to an insane degree in these three films. In DOFP, he screams at Charles for sinking into a depression after LOSING EVERYTHING HE CARES ABOUT and doing nothing for the other mutants (most of whom he was not responsible for, mind you). But it's A-OK for Erik to turn his back on absolutely everyone and live in domestic bliss with his wife and daughter. Charles is running a school and providing sanctuary for young mutants. But let Raven tell it and his efforts aren't good enough. Sure, she saves mutants from bad situations.... then ditches them, but abandonment is her specialty.
What really sucks is that I love the chemistry between these three and the actors giving so much to it is all that's kept me anywhere near interested. Singer's films have a lot of nice deleted scenes, but there is not enough logic or detail to characterization.
Simply stated: it's not out of the question.
But it's a pivotal moment because Erik really opened her... uh... eyes. The real Mystique was coming around.