MovieChat Forums > Vals Im Bashir (2008) Discussion > Is this another bash Israel movie?

Is this another bash Israel movie?

posted 15 years ago by bruce-129
64 replies | jump to latest

I am really sick of this point of view. When the Palestinians were in Jordan and tried to kill
the king and take over the country they were kicked out, and more of them were killed
than the Israelis ever killed. I am sick of the Muslim driven UN always condeming Israel
and saying nothing about radical Islamic countries.

I realize the Palestinians have a story, which I consider that no one has really told well
at this point.

Is this movie going to be an interesting thing to see, or another rant from some
partisan propagandist?

[–] littleteakettle 15 years ago

No I don't think this was an Israel-bash movie. There was one thing that the Israeli army did that had a major effect on the main character, and he is trying (bravely) to come to terms with it. I thought the movie was balanced and incredibly humanistic

[–] bruce-129 15 years ago

Humanistic? Both these countries have been at war for over 60 years.
Humanistic would be to get the war over with and move on. Sixty plus
years of escalating war that sucks in the whole world and has terrorists
all over the place ... I see nothing humanistic about that.

What is the proper point of feeling guilty for the deaths of people that want
Israel dead just for existing?

I don't mean that the it sounds ... obviously one has sorrow for the deaths
of anyone, and in this case Palestinians civilians, but there is no effort at
all that I have seen that paralllels this from the other sides. And if there were,
their governments would be at odds with them.

[–] Lidocaineus 14 years ago

Pretty sure the poster meant the character's journey was humanistic, not the war.

[–] m_bd89 13 years ago

Oh yes absolutely no Israeli soldiers died in the movie. Of course I'm being sarcastic. And Ari is retelling what happened, what he saw, what his friends saw, you do know you can't change history, I get the feeling you're not pissed about Israeli bashing (there isn't any), but more about there not being enough Palestinian bashing, unfortunately your english is so bad I can't be sure: "but these is not effort at all that I have seen that paralllels this from the other sides. And if there were their governments would be at odds with them."
"What is the proper point of feeling guilty for the deaths of people that want Israel dead just for existing?" Just for existing? Or maybe it's because they feel like they've been robbed of their country, maybe it's the constant living in fear of losing your life or having your home bulldozed, maybe it's struggling to find water while your neighbors enjoy swimming pools and luscious gardens that makes Palestinians not look favorably upon Israelis. And I've definitely never heard any Israeli speak publicly about wanting, not only all the Palestinians, but all arabs to be wiped off the face of the earth. Does that mean that all Israelis want Palestinians dead? Of course not and I know for a fact that isn't true. I realize that Israel is an established nation, people have built their lives there, many of whom don't share your opinion just like a lot of Palestinians don't want war, and just want to go on their lives peacefully, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Israelis want the same thing for themselves. Young Palestinians are pushed to suicide bombing by people who don't understand the value of life, or understand that violence doesn't help in a situation like this. And the whole "you poke my eye out, I'll poke both your eyes out" mentality adopted by the Israeli government is definitely counter productive. Sometimes it feels like Israel and the arab world in general are like two brothers fighting, someone has to be the bigger man, and yes because Israel is the superior one, in terms of military, economic, political strength and development people tend to expect better from it's government.
And as a final point, the movie doesn't try to make you feel guilty, more like acknowledge that there are no real "good guys" or "bad guys" in war, despite what most movies and propaganda want to make you believe. Both, are to blame for 60 years of war that has spilled so much innocent blood. At the end of the day, after the death tolls have been tallied, "who is more to blame?" just seems like a pointless question.
Wow that was long but there was so much stupidity in your short comment that I couldn't help myself. Also, if you're curious I'm 22 years old, Tunisian, agnostic but was raised muslim, and live most of my life in Saudi Arabia. And I have absolutely no hate for Israelis or Jews, or more like I don't hate them anymore than any other group. Because, in all honesty, if you look at the big picture, people are *beep*

[–] bruce-129 13 years ago

> your english is so bad I can't be sure

you twit ... a few typos that if your English was competent you would be able to decipher in context. Complaining about that is one of those things that demonstrates you are really whining to hear yourself whine.

So after bashing me you go on to list multiple irrelevant reasons to justify the Palestinian side - just as I thought.

It is nothing the Israelis do that that makes Palestinians "not look upon them favorably". These people were anti-semiitic before Israel even existed, the whole area is intolerant of any non-Muslim group. And don't waste my time coming back with the other irrelevant argument that Arabs are semitic people as well.

You are like a lot of knee-jerking babblers on the Internet, you read enough of a post that you think you can intuit what it is about from the symbols that tick you off, and then you respond accordingly. Why are you wasting my time?

You Palestinians are not pushed to suicide bombing because of the Israelis, because there is plenty of suicide bombing all over the area, outside of Israel and outside of Palestine. Then is it worth mentioning how Hamas seeks the destruction of the state of Israel, or do you feel that is justified as well?

Your life in Saudi Arabia must be really interesting if you have no hate for Israel and the Jews ... I don't think you could even say that at least publicly in Saudi Arabia. Why do you give your patronage to a country that does not even allows Jews to enter the country if you do not support their policies?

It has not really been a 60 years "war", it has been a thousand year effort for Israel to end the Muslim intolerence, hate, and yes ... occupation, because no non-Muslim groups can ever co-exist in these countries where Islam is both church and state. The "war" as you call it could end all over the Middle East if Muslims would just end trying to take over the world, or to keep their own lands run by their false god that does not even exist. Anyway, I know I will not get any more logic or reason from you because it is patently impossible for you to overcome your brainwashing and society pressure of Islam.

Wait til you grow up in your country and realize that unless you join the dominant political group you will never get anywhere, and you will always be told what to do or limited by religious police. You don't know so much as you think you do - try growing up a little.

[–] m_bd89 13 years ago

Wow I didn't know Israel existed for a thousand years. Here I thought it was formed in the 1940s. And the whole Jews and Arabs have been enemies since the beginning is a common misconception. Jews and Muslims both fought together against the crusaders and they did live together peacefully. But history is violent and everyone was at war with everyone else at some point in time. The smart thing is to move past that.

Did I ever say I agree with Saudi policies? Why do you assume that? I wasn't even a year old when I was brought here. I think this country is a piece of *beep* I won't even hesitate to say that, it's obvious to anyone with half a brain, but at the risk of getting your head cut off, no one's going to speak against it. Like I said I'm Tunisian and right now Saudi Arabia is harboring Tunisia's ex-dictator, SA is run by *beep* people, most Arab states are run by sociopaths who ruin the whole country, which is why I'm very proud to be able to vote (and have my vote count of course) for the first time in Tunisia this summer. My father came here so we can have a comfortable life, yes it's not perfect, but because he made that decision so long ago I'm able now to study biology outside of Saudi Arabia, but my views haven't changed much after leaving.

"You Palestinians are not pushed to suicide bombing because of the Israelis" I meant young folks were pushed to suicide bombing by other Palestinians who have no value for life and don't understand that violence only brings more violence (Hamas for example), I didn't mean Israelis, I admit I didn't make my self clear enough, although like I said (again), the Israeli government's policies towards Palestinians does nothing to help the situation. I'm not Palestinian so don't say "you Palestinians" just like I didn't tell you "you Jews".

"Then is it worth mentioning how Hamas seeks the destruction of the state of Israel, or do you feel that is justified as well" no seeking the destruction of a whole country is wrong I think I made myself clear on that, like I said (one more time) Israel is an established country, people have formed roots there, it's immoral to ask them to leave. Did you even read my post?

And I don't see how I was bashing you, maybe I was being a bit overzealous, but I called your comment stupid and I stand by that, and your English was unintelligible, and you admit making typos. If you consider sarcasm as bashing, than I apologize but that's just my way of speaking. While the first few words you told me are "you twit", called me brainwashed for no reason (I accept blame for the actions of a lot of Arabs, whilst you deny any blame from Israel's side), called me a knee-jerking babbler and attacked my family's religion: "keep their own lands run by their false god that does not even exist." I've done absolutely none of that to you.

"Your life in Saudi Arabia must be really interesting if you have no hate for Israel and the Jews" here's a little bit of info for you: People ARE capable of independent thought, even Arabs and Muslims! (last time I checked they are without a doubt people)

"You are like a lot of knee-jerking babblers on the Internet, you read enough of a post that you think you can intuit what it is about from the symbols that tick you off, and then you respond accordingly." pot calling the kettle black much?

[–] bruce-129 13 years ago

> the Israeli government's policies towards Palestinians does nothing to help the situation

There is plenty of criticism or next-day quarterbacking of Israel, and a lot of it valid, but the point
is that it is not Israel's job to "help the situation", particularly since they know that there is no way
to help the situation. No matter what they did or do it will be a problem far into the future, and that
has to do with Islamic civilization.

I do not believe in any or either of the Gods these countries represent, but secularly I do believe in
most of the policies of Israel and I think they are doing the best they can with what they have and what
they face.

I don't think the Palestinians are trying at all for peace, period. If so they would at least get rid of
their charter to destroy Israel, and it has been so long that they have had that even if they did get
rid of it, it would be a long time for me to trust or believe them.

As far as knee-jerking, I disagree. I do not reflexively react to this subject, I try to be clear and fact-
based, but there is only so much time one can devote to an Internet posting.

[–] m_bd89 13 years ago

I want add one last thing about suicide bombers that you might not know. Regular Palestinians don't have access to bombs, and they're not that easy to make. Palestine's youth are brainwashed, recruited and pushed to suicide bombing/violence by terrorist organizations. And because they are so desperate they are much easier to manipulate. The Israeli government's insistence on continued colonization, and it's tactic of "retaliation with deadlier force" only makes the job easier for terrorists to recruit impressionable Palestinians. If Israel accepted some of the blame from time to time and changed their treatment of Palestinians, it would make it a lot easier for Arabs and Palestinians to stop hating them. Someone has to take the first step, and because Israel is the dominant one in the region, people should expect more from it. It's not going to stop the violence overnight, of course, but it would be a great first step... Better than anything they've done so far anyway.

[–] bruce-129 13 years ago

>> The Israeli government's insistence on continued colonization, and it's tactic of "retaliation
>> with deadlier force" only makes the job easier for terrorists to recruit impressionable Palestinians.

Yeah ... it would be so much nicer for the Palestinians if the Israelis just did nothing.

Seriously, Arabs/Muslims do not need a reason to hate non-Muslims, especially Jews. First
they treat them badly, and then complain when they demand their own countries. it is in
their very DNA to hate non-Muslims, it is institutional.

Israel seems dominant, but all those Arab countries would not have ganged up to attack
Israel if that was really the case, they just got a surprise.

I don't really think there is a solution here, so since I don't live therre, and I think it is the
Israeli's choice on how they handle this, their settlements and retaliation strategy has to be
up to them. I don't think it is unfair or just their fault when you consider what Palestinians
have done to Israelis, and still aim to do, as well as when you consider what Palestinians have
done to each other and other Muslim countries, ie. Jordan, Tunisia, Lebanon.

I think Palestine if it is a country should be a single contiguous space of land instead of this
ridiculous to area thing. But that's just my outside opinion.

[–] m_bd89 13 years ago

"I do believe in most of the policies of Israel and I think they are doing the best they can with what they have and what they face." Most of the time, it feels like if Israel's government wasn't being watched so closely, they would have wiped out the Palestinians a long time ago. Would you support that? Hamas/Israel (I speak of the government, not all Israelis) think the same way, they think the easiest solution is the destruction of the other, and history has proven both of them wrong.

Did I say it's just their fault? Quite the contrary, this is the third time now that I deny believing that. You're the one who still doesn't admit that the fault goes both ways. And no they shouldn't do nothing, they should do something different. Only an idiot repeats the same action and expects different results (yes Hamas and terrorists are idiots too). They can defend themselves without being vengeful, Israel is also the only one with a democratic state in the region in which its people can actually have an impact on their government's actions. People living in Israel (and Palestine) who think like you, who won't accept any compromise, are the ones that will keep the conflict going.

First of all very few Arab/Muslims hate non-Muslims (me being living proof of at least one Arabic person who doesn't hate any country or religion), I will admit that a lot of them do hate Jews and Israelis and I get in a lot of arguments with friends and family members because of that, I've also managed to (slowly) sway some of them (using exactly the same arguments I use here). But hate never exists "for no reason", Palestinians feel like their country was stolen from them, and rightly so, it was sold by the British to Jews escaping Europe, the Palestinians had no say in it. Should they seek revenge in the form of Israel's destruction? Hell no! And of course Palestinians want peace, they're human after all, they just want to offer better lives to their families (like any respectable person) and believe me when I say most of them just want to move on with their lives without war, unfortunately these regular Palestinians have no impact on Hamas' actions.

" Palestinians have done to each other and other Muslim countries, ie. Jordan, Tunisia, Lebanon. " (You say "Palestinians" like it's all of them who wanted and did those things) AGAIN I said this in my previous post: History is violent and everyone was at war with each other at some point in time, the smart thing is to move past that. If you're going to hold on to grudges then it becomes a vicious cycle: What prevents the other side from holding on to the new-formed grudges as well?

And of course the Israelis need to help the situation there: IT'S THEIR GODDAMN COUNTRY! Don't they want to improve it? Maybe live in peace? Palestinians want peace too. Sure, I'm not naive enough to say that all of them want that right now, hate blinds people, but you can't keep hating someone who doesn't hate you back, that is a fact. The way you changed your tone with me is proof of that. Which is why I believe, a real solution starts with the end of hate, with the end of this "vengeance" mentality adopted by both sides and that it's easier for the Israelis to take the first step since they are "winning" (no real winners in war) and regular Israelis can push their government to change (unlike all Arabic Middle-Eastern countries). The Israeli government don't have much to fear, they have the full, unshakable, backing of the most powerful country in the world and the European countries. Obama just confirmed yesterday the US's protection of Israel. It is a hell of a lot easier for them to take the first step.

I don't believe in any religion either, but that doesn't give me the right to insult others' beliefs (atheists included) or mock them because they believe in it. Finally, here's something my father always tells me: There's always a solution. So far he's been right, at least when it comes to my personal life. I might be an optimist but I refuse to believe otherwise, at least when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conflict.

[–] tFighterPilot 13 years ago

We don't have the backing of anyone. No one ever came to our aid in our times of need.

You should get your history correctly, the land wasn't sold by the British to the Jews, as the British never actually owned land. Much of the land was sold by wealthy Arab land owners from Lebanon and Syria. The land which was not privately owned became state owned land after Israel was declared a country.

The Palestinian never had a country in the first place. They started killing Jews in 1920, what good reason did they have back then? If they lived in peace with the Jews nothing bad would happen to them. Only they are responsible for their situation.

You want our government to do stuff which you know the Arabs would never do. It doesn't work that way, it takes two for tango.

[–] m_bd89 13 years ago

Like 5 people died in a riot 90 years ago. I'm not going to defend that, but do their children still have to pay for that mistake? I don't get why you brought it up, do you mean that it is a justification to continue a 70 year old war? And they did have a country, that place has been inhabited by the same people for a very long time and a lot of them are still living there. You can't deny that it's their country. The only claim the jewish people have to that land is biblical, should everyone try to reclaim the land their ancestors inhabited 3000 years ago!?

It does take two to tango but you're saying it like the Israeli government wants to dance. In fact they gain more by not having peace, I mean sure they say they will restart peace talks but then they go ahead and continue to build illegal settlements. That doesn't really sound like someone who wants peace. And if by a miracle peace does happen then the Israeli government would have missed the chance to take more land. Someone has to make the first step, you can't keep blaming those savage arabs forever, specially when your government has made no actual effort (and not the "yeah we'll negotiate with you while we destroy your homes" type of effort) towards peace. You can't criticize someone else for not doing something you yourself are not willing to do.

[–] tFighterPilot 13 years ago

They started in 1920, however they never stopped. They attacked again and again throughout the years. A year later they killed 47 Jews. In 1929 they killed 133 Jews. In 1936-39 they killed around 300 Jews. That's all before a single Arab lost his home. They never had a country, which simply a fact. Most of the Arabs have immigrated to Palestine in the last 500 years, kinda like the Europeans in America. Why is their claim stronger than ours? You say 2000 years (not sure why you went an extra thousand years back) is ancient history. But the Arabs majority here also belongs to history. In short, we were here first, we are here now, yet you insist on the time in between.

Jerusalem isn't an illegal settlement. We know it, the Arabs know it, only the west can't see it, being so far away.

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[–] 13 years ago

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