MovieChat Forums > Ink (2020) Discussion > Who is Liev? (spoilers)

Who is Liev? (spoilers)


What do people think about her? Near the end she asks Ink why he already knows her name, suggesting that she has some kind of connection to him (his answer frustrates her, so I think he has not realized something).

I thought perhaps that she is Emma from the died-in-a-coma timeline, but there isn't a lot to support that. Another possibility is that she is actually Shelly, but I think that the sequence showing other-side Shelly looking like herself rules that out (if Liev was wearing a mask then this would make more sense).

Or am I just looking for something that's not there, and Liev is just an altruistic entity who sees the relationship between Ink and Emma? For such a major character, that kind of backstory seems like a deus ex machina, but maybe that's the point?

EDIT: I'm ashamed to admit that I only just now realized that her name backwards is "Veil" which is surely not a coincidence.

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I say wife for the two facts that Liev is pronounced like Leaf and when they first met he made a joke about a leaf causing her car not to work. Also she she seemed to care about ink and emma equally.

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Don't forget when the tracker is in Emma's hospital room and asks "where are this girl's parents?" it cuts to the scene where Ink and Liev run into each other for the first time.

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I think the Emma concept is arguable but I feel that Liev had no specific relation to John.

The lioness thing was just her easy way of relating to Emma to be brave in her situation.

If you remember, the special thing about Liev was that she was able to "undo what has been done", therefore she acted upon the situation as a negotiator trying to get Ink to realize who he was.

On another note though, I can't specifically remember but she did remind me a lot of John's mother in the flashback.

This film was incredible, it got me all choked up at the end.

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Well, I was sure Liev is either Emma or Shelly but hadn't had my mind set until a few minutes ago when it hit me, and I think I've got the answer.

Liev means Lion in Russian (it's actually a male name but that's not important). Lion = Lioness. Hint is strong enough. She played dead in the woods with the kids and roared (as someone in this treat had noted), and Emma was making up monster stories playing with her dad early in the film, so it shows good imagination, fitting for a master storyteller or whatever Liev's title was. And finally, the way Liev looked and cheered Emma didn't seem exactly motherly, it was more like a sister, which makes sense if she's herself.

Anyways, the Liev = Lion thing should have this settled, unless someone can come up with a better proof (not just a theory)

Stro

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you're right. that scene by the train tracks with her dad, and when she was alone in her room playing with the stuff animals when she was supposed to be asleep..definitely gave the impression that Emma is some sort of storyteller in the making..

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I always assumed that Liev was the Emma from the fixed timeline. The Emma we see in the film is the one from the suicide timeline.

Remember, Ink caused the problem in the first place by putting Emma in the hospital. First there was a timeline where Emma never got sick, never got to the hospital. Then that timeline stopped existing because Ink from the suicide timeline went back in time and that resulted in Ink ignoring his dying daughter and comitting suicide. It's a paradox, because Ink from the suicide timeline causes his own suicide by going back in time. Ink causes himself to exist.

Then the pathfinder and his crew fixed the problem by making sure he never suicided. This is carried over to Ink when, in the real world, he touches Emma's face. Ink then saves Emma, and the third, or "fixed" timeline is created.

Of course talking about timelines makes it sound like they're separate, but they're obviously not.

Still, I think it's important to note that the fixed timeline is fundamentally different from the first timeline. In the first timeline, Emma never got sick, and thus Ink never killed himself.

If the storyteller was Emma from the 1st timeline, she would not know what she knows, and why its important.
If the storyteller was Emma from the 2nd timeline, she would not be a storyteller at all since she was to be devoured by the succubi.
The only logical explanation is that Liev is Emma from the fixed timeline, because she had then experienced what she would do through the suicide timeline Emma, and everything had already happened so she knew what to do.

Bottom line:
Ink creates himself from the future.
So does Liev.





Shadows fell on their futile ways, and then there was nothing more...

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[deleted]

I like this explanation, too, admin-441. It works. That's what is great about this movie; all the ways you can see it and interpret it.

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I like this explanation, too, admin-441. It works. That's what is great about this movie; all the ways you can see it and interpret it.


This is true, almost like complete noise. You can always claim to see patterns in static, good call.

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This is true, almost like complete noise. You can always claim to see patterns in static, good call.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Touché.

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I think we shouldn't focus on different timelines...
It seems all contemporary... out of time actually... it's complicated but we should make en effort to understand...
When Emma is playng with the father saying that a monster is trying to take her away... contemporarely Ink decides to save her from the Assembley...

http://cinefilante.blogspot.com/

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[deleted]

Liev is an allegorical representation of g-d or the ideological concept there of. Consider that when asked as to how long she had been a story-teller she quotes Psalms ninety-four. Also her intervention on Ink's behalf and subsequent sacrifice is remanescent of the gospel accounts of Christ and the lengths he went to assure the reconcilliation between the Creator and man. The movie is at it's heart a story about: good, evil, guilt (shame and pride / the emphasis on these two issues alone make a convincing case for this to be near biblically in it's spin on morality) and redemption.

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Personally I think Liev and Emma are the same, for pretty much every reason already stated. The Lion thing; The way she took care of Emma; The multiple possibilities (ie: John/Ink). I don't see much reason for Liev to be the mother. Not to be harsh, but the mother wasn't important to this story, except for the fact that she died.

Also, I think it's a bit trite for people to reference some religion as the basis for the film, or any other film for that matter. Sometimes, people just have good ideas on their own that aren't based on some religion.
I knew that it would come up with this film. I didn't see any real part of the film as an allegory for any religion I know of.
I don't mean to offend anyone with this part, but from a non believers stand point, a religion is no more than a fairy tale itself, just like any story. It's a man mad imaginative story. Good and evil don't come from religion, moral struggles the same. Simply all ideas from people.

Anyway on top of that I think the idea that Liev is god or whatever doesn't make sense because the pathfinder even mentions God taking his site. So the Idea of God and religion would play an even deeper role in this setting considering the struggle between the Incubi and the Story Tellers. Furthermore, the role of those two seem seemed to be a little more tightly related to dreams. As explained by Liev.

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I don't think there's anything trite about saying there's spiritual themes in this movie. It doesn't matter whether or not religion or morality came first, or if a religion is an accurate portrayal of historical events. Whether you believe the stories themselves or not, the ideas that they depict are often fundamental truths, and their themes of saviors and redemption (across many cultures) creep into so many areas of storytelling naturally BECAUSE they're integral parts of our history, what we value. Religion is a huge part of human culture, something that has been part of the human "story" for millennia, and that makes it *powerful*, whether or not it's "real." You may find naivete in the belief that these things are a part our stories, but I think the opposite is true. It seems to me you're discounting a very powerful influence.

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As much as I liked the movie, I believe people are taking issue with attempts to shoehorn specific biblical characters/situations/verses into respective roles in the film. The movie is patently ambiguous, and many viewers do not appreciate being told that there is a singular reading of the film or its characters. It is (and should be) especially hard to sell the idea that this story has been told before, "chapter and verse," as it were.

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You're completely right. I don't think the directors made this movie meaning to put a specific meaning into it. Everyone can interpret the movie the way they see fit and there is no right or wrong answer. If there were, I think the directors would proactively tell us in some commentary that "Liev was symbolic of Jesus, etc."

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When I first saw the movie, it seemed that Liev had a sort of a leadership-role for the others. She seems to know more about this situation than the other storytellers and they all seem to go out on missions based on her "command".

I would say that she seems to be a sort of direct opposite to the incubi leader. The one without the strange tv/mirror-screen.

What is also quite fascinating and interesting about this movie is that it takes a fairly other turn when it comes to fantastical beings. Contrary to for example christianity, it would seem that all the storytellers and the incubi were normal people at some point, and so it can be assumed that there's a hiarchi of leadership within both sides.

So in that sense it's not impossible to accept both major theories in one.

Liev MIGHT be a version of Emma from the future, and also the symbol of divinity of good, like the leader Incubi is the symbol of divinity of evil.
It seems also that neither sides are in any way immortal, which I also look at as a rather fancy twist when it comes to adapting the idea of "sovereign beings".

Aaany way one might interpret it, it's a gorgeous movie.

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Okay, maybe I missed something, but why are people referring to the "good guys" as storytellers? Liev is a storyteller, but does that really make all of her comrades storytellers?
My impression was that Liev was one permutation of Emma. Emma is very creative and likes making up stories, so that makes perfect sense for her to be known as a storyteller. She's probably a permutation who only exists because of John's mistakes, so there's no real contradiction with her dying even though she's already dead. She sacrifices herself so that John can achieve redemption and happiness. Emma says that she wants to be a storyteller too, but Liev tells her that this won't happen...seems to me that she's saying that by carrying out her plan she will change Emma's future.
I definitely did get the feel of the Christian undertones to this film, but even as a non-believer I wasn't offended. It seemed to promote the good things that are in Christianity like love and redemption but leave out the bad things like judgments on others and fearmongering.

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I've really enjoyed this thread, & just have a few thoughts to add.

Although it's interesting to see how many of the characters & plot devices line up with one religion or another, I saw the characters as more like archetypes. John felt like "Everyman", someone who has struggled all his life, lost many battles of character, but has a chance to redeem himself and choose a better path.

Most religions have the forces of good and evil struggling over a person's soul. Many religions evolve to incorporate "intercessors"--saints, angels, Bodhisattvas, etc. semi-godlike figures who can offer help and guidance to those seeking salvation.

These intermediaries usually cannot intervene directly--they can only counsel and advise, protect and guide. Or, on the baddies' side, cajole, tempt, confuse and taunt. The person has to eventually make his/her own decisions. Free will and all.

That could be why Liev fights John at first, and then submits totally--to show him she CAN fight, but chooses not to.

These guides could represent many aspects of people who were connected to John. So Liev could echo aspects of Emma, his wife, etc. Anyone capable of forming an emotional connection to him, who loved him and who could urge him to remember the good things in his life that were worth hanging on to.

Several folks have mentioned that Emma was obviously quite the storyteller already (her play with her doll & stuffed animals.) What struck me was she was may have been repeating the phrases she heard when her mother died (or heard the grandparents grieve later)---the cries of grief, the words, "Aaaaah! Aaaah! She was so young!", etc.

Which makes me think one motif of the film is, we are ALL storytellers. We all tell ourselves stories to explain our actions, our lives. And Liev shows we have the ability to change the story, tell a different, better story about ourselves.

And, of course, this film is a story about that process. :^)

I like the "veil" reference, and the "lion" reference. Of course, you could say "Liev" is also an anagram of "live"... ;^)

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From my interpretation of the 'Ink' world is that it's all in John's head - basically the bad guys are the evil thoughts and Liev is the tiny speckle of goodness John still has in him. I don't think it's supposed to be anyone but merely his conscience. That's why when she gets her hair shaved he feels pity showing that he still hasn't gone completely evil.

Liev = anagram of Evil. Possibly she is the opposite of evil.



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