Ok, I'm just curious to discuss this in terms of religion. So, if Hitler is pure evil, it would make sense for a greater entity to put a stop to it, right? So, why was Hitler so lucky as to survive all 15 assassination attempts? So that he can eventually put a gun to his head and kill himself? Please share your thoughts.
P.S. I am just discussing this as openly as possible. Please do not feel offended in any way.
There is no god therefore god didn't "let" Hitler survive.
shareHahaha. Probably. But since 90% of the world believes in a supreme being, I would like to know their views as well.
shareWhich religion and denomination/sect are you addressing this question to? Not all of them believe God interferes in world affairs.
But anyway, my answer would be that He gave humans free will. What they do with it is their problem and they will be judged for their actions. Here is something else related to your question:
Question: "Why did God allow the Holocaust?"
Answer: In dealing with the problem of evil in the world, we run into many problems like this one. Could God have prevented the Holocaust? Yes, He could have. He could also have prevented Stalin’s massacres in the U.S.S.R., the Spanish Inquisition’s torture of dissidents, and Nero’s reign of terror. In each case, God allowed evil men to exercise a certain amount of power for a short period of time.
Ultimately, we do not know the reasons for what God allows. His ways and thoughts are infinitely higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8-9). His sovereign plan takes in the whole scope of history, past, present, and future, encompassing every possible course of action, every cause and effect, every potentiality, and every contingency. There is no way we could possibly fathom the intricacies of His design. By faith, we trust that His plan is the best plan possible for restoring fallen humanity and a cursed world to righteousness and blessing.
But we can understand this: God’s permission is not the same as His approval. God permitted Adam to eat of the forbidden tree, but He did not approve of the action. In the same way, God’s allowing the Holocaust in no way suggests His approval of it. God is grieved by the sinfulness of man and the hardness of his heart (Genesis 6:6; Mark 3:5).
We also know that God has done everything possible to redeem us from the sin which would destroy us. He gave His only Son, who sacrificed His life for our sin and took our penalty. All who turn to Jesus Christ in faith are saved. The sin in this world, and horrors such as the Holocaust, are a direct result of mankind’s continued rebellion against God.
While nothing can justify the Holocaust, we do see at least one good thing which came from World War II: Israel now exists as a nation. The Holocaust was a primary reason the White Paper of 1939 was rescinded, freeing Jews to immigrate to Palestine. The fact that, as of 1948, the Jews have a restored national identity helps to fulfill such biblical prophecies as Ezekiel 37 and Matthew 24. Defeating Nazism and giving the land of Israel back to the Jews is a classic example of God’s thwarting Satan’s plan and bringing about good in spite of the evil.
In all of His doings, God is just (Psalm 145:17). The blame for the Holocaust lies squarely on the shoulders of sinful humanity. The Holocaust was the product of sinful choices made by sinful men in rebellion against a holy God. If the Holocaust proves anything, it is the utter depravity of man. Just fourteen years after "the war to end all wars" (World War I), Hitler rose to power. What is even more shocking is that millions followed him, enabling his horrific policies and pursuing a path to national destruction.
And while Nazism took hold in Germany, where were the European churches? Some, it is true, stood fast against the evil in their midst, and some churchmen, such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer, paid the ultimate price for dissenting. But they were the minority. Most churches of the era acquiesced to Nazi Party rules and remained silent while the Jews were slaughtered. Where were the world leaders? Other than England’s Winston Churchill, the world’s politicos took the route of isolation or appeasement. Neither worked. Where were the good, decent people? Edmund Burke is often quoted as saying, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." Although there were a few Germans and other Europeans such as Oscar Schindler and Corrie ten Boom and her family, who risked their lives to save thousands of Jews from annihilation, most remained silent and the Holocaust ensued. The question is not so much "Why did God allow the Holocaust?" but "Why did we?"
God gives mankind freedom of choice. We can choose to follow Him and take a stand for righteousness, or we can rebel against Him and pursue evil. The problem resides in the heart of man. "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). Until man’s heart turns to God, the world will continue to witness "ethnic cleansings," genocides, and atrocities such as the Holocaust.
Thank you, Randir. That was more than sufficient for me.
shareQuite frankly, it may have been more sufficient for you, but I propose that is because you, no offense intended here either, are "perspectively handicapped," from a certain perspective (heh). The response of "Misguided" was extremely succinct, forward, to the point, and wasted no unnecessary energy. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Randir's response, while containing not a single bit more evidence or proof of its accuracy than the post of "Misguided," was much longer for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the more convoluted the message, the longer it is because it is necessary to use more words when you are trying to sell a "story." Secondly, the more convoluted the message is, the more "questions" arise that must be "explained." Many people know of Occam's razor and its basic idea that "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one." While this is no reflection on my own beliefs, it might help you put a few things into perspective.
Also, I also have to refute your assertion that 90% of people believe in a supreme being. That is a rather old statistic, and in fact, the most recent study conducted by the Committe on the Study of Religion at Harvard University found that approximately 75% of humans believe in a supreme being of some sort, and that the percentage of atheists, agnostics, and those who do not consider themselves to be apart of any "designation" (although I believe a good arguement could be made for placing these people in the agnostic category) have all increased somewhat drastically over the past 30 year period in comparison to other periods of the same length.
There are also other considerations that must be taken into account considering that percentage as well. If you also consider the fact that many people believe there is a supreme being simply because it is something they have been taught ever since they were a young child and did not receive a balanced education on the subject, you start to realize that of the 75% who believe in a supreme being, a large amount do so without ever really objectively or rationally examining the topic. Also, there is a percentage of that 75% who internally have major doubts or do not truly believe in god at all but because of social pressures will not admit to this out loud.
AMSATcorp,
In my opinion, "randir" has provided a comprehensive response to the question at hand which addresses the basic problem of why "bad things happen to good people".
Firstly, your response and that of "Misguided" are not really "to the point" as you claim - rather, they miss the point entirely. The original question is posed with the explicit premise that a "greater entity" exists... so simply denying the premise doesn't actually address the question.
Secondly, Occam's razor doesn't really seem applicable here. The principle actually states that where two theories are in all other respects equal, the least complicated theory is to be preferred. A belief in God or atheism are not equal theories that differ only in their level of complexity - rather, they provide radically different explanations and outcomes formulated from the available evidence.
Thirdly, after indicating that perhaps only 75% of people express a belief in a supreme being, you conclude that "there is a percentage of that 75% who internally have major doubts or do not truly believe in god at all but because of social pressures will not admit to this out loud." In my experience, social pressure is usually exerted in the opposite direction: that is, in absence of a very strong belief, most people will deny God so as to avoid opening themselves up to ridicule by their peers. Furthermore, I also suspect that there are quite a number of self-confessed atheists, agnostics, etc. who sometimes entertain the disturbing thought that there may be more to life than just random chance... when they take the time to stop and contemplate the possibility.
Irrespective of how many people believe in God, let's really get to answering the original poster's honest question. By the way, when has the great majority ever had the correct answer? The answer is, of course, not very often.
randir14-1 already gave *part* of the answer, but only the general preface to all actions of mankind that are wicked. The next point to make in the sequence is the fact that Almighty God takes the wicked things done by Satan and by those who serve Satan (whether knowingly or not), and He makes good come out of all that evil. God fully defeats the forces of evil when He does that, because it demonstrates that no enemy of God can thwart the plans of God, no matter how much he desires to do so. This is most easily demonstrated in the death of Jesus on the cross. Satan and his forces did all that they could do to ruin Jesus, even killing Him, and all they succeeded in doing was providing the platform for Christ's great victory over Satan, once and for all.
Now, down to the specifics of why Hitler was suffered by God.
The Bible always prophesied that a "Time Of The End" would occur, an end-game for the world, if you will. At that time, Christ comes back as victor, catches-away to Heaven those people who were actually saved people, and destroys the world. This is all preparatory to creation of a new Earth and universe, though what that will be like is not really described, beyond being wonderful.
Now, preparatory to that, the Bible propesied a sign to know when that Time Of The End was about to begin. That sign was the Fig Tree coming into leaf. Ancient Israel was often represented metaphorically by a fig tree in scripture. The Bible said that that vanished nation, nearly 2,000 years gone from the world, would suddenly come to existence once again in the roster of nations of the world. That's what that prophesy means. So, God used Hitler, the great enemy of the Jews, and the entire episode of their destruction during World War II, as the impetus, the primary motive force, to put over the top the movement to recreate an Israel in the Middle East. This movement had been around for some decades, and evidence of it can be seen in The Balfour Declaration, which made that a stated goal of England and, by extension, the western nations. This was one of the big goals of the Woodrow Wilson administration in America, by the way. Anyway, it's quite obvious that the creation of Israel as a nation in 1948 was primarily made accomplishable by the horrendous suffering of the Jews in Europe in the Hitler era.
So, there you have it. We are in that Time Of The End right now, when the seal placed by God on the Bible against understanding all of the end-time prophesies has been removed. Now the Holy Spirit is making a great many things understood, including the very date of Judgment Day, which is May 21, 2011. Yes, the world will end next year. The signal of the start of all of this, this special era, the last of this world, was when Israel became a nation again in 1948. You have your answer.
To find out more about this, and to see the very detailed, exhaustive, careful and obedient Bible study that demonstrates that May 21, 2011 is Judgment Day, go to www.familyradio.com. Everything there is free. Read "We Are Almost There": http://www.familyradio.com/PDFS/waat.html .
I didn't make any of this up. You asked a good question, and you now have the answer. May the Lord open eyes to the truth of what is coming from the Bible today. Don't believe me, but check out the data for yourself. Read the Bible, and read the Bible study and see for yourself if what I'm telling you is the truth.
tsalagicelt,
Pardon my skepticism, but your prediction of Judgement Day on May 21, 2011 is taken from the work of Harold Camping of Family Radio - the same guy that previously predicted the return of Jesus in 1994.
I suppose if you make enough predictions, eventually one of them is bound to come true... but is this the one?
You're incorrect, though that is what a lot of people say. Camping did not "predict" the return of Jesus in 1994. He said it was a possibility, a strong possibility, but never guaranteed it. He even put a question mark in the title of his 1992-published book "1994?" to emphasize that fact. In that book, he said, several times, that 2011 was another possibility, even back then.
That was before we learned many more facets of the whole picture, particularly that the churches have all come under Judgment for their continual apostasy and idolatry, just as did Old Testament Israel, the first "church" and people of God. Neither one was the true kingdom of God, but were merely flawed portrayals of that final reality. Learning that the "Church Age", as we've termed it, has been called to an end by God was primarily what propelled us to see the rest of the big picture. By the way, this isn't just Camping who sees this, it is me, and countless of other Bible students who have separately discovered the same things in the Bible. I see all of this for myself. I don't believe Camping, and wouldn't follow a man's opinions, but **God** has shown me the world will end next year, from the Bible.
We have many corroborative proofs that poured forth from the Bible, miraculous, unassailable proofs, since we realized that the Bible was pointing to May 21, 2011 as the Judgment Day. I invite you to look at the data for yourself, to decide for yourself -- read "We Are Almost There" or "Time Has An End" at the www.familyradio.com site. It is a very long Bible study that proves it, though. You'll have to do your homework to determine the truth of this.
**THIS** event on May 21, 2011 is guaranteed to happen -- there is NO HEDGING on this. You didn't get that about the 1994 possibility.
Ok tsalagicelt,
Let me make sure I understand you...are you telling me (us) that the world is coming to an end just over 5 months from now?
I'm not trying to be mean here tsalagicelt, but in all honesty I personally believe that to be extremely far-fetched. Something tells me that you yourself don't really see this to be true.
But in case you really do believe so, as your last sentence professes, would you perhaps be willing to place a wager on that? After all you did say "May 21, 2011 is guaranteed to happen -- there is NO HEDGING on this." The word here that jumps out at me is "guaranteed."
I'm being completely and 150% serious right now tsalagicelt. What do you say we make a bet for $1000? This world lives to see May 22, 2011, you pay me $1000 via PayPal, NO EXCUSES. Deal? You win, well, I don't suppose i'll have the chance to pay you since this world will be wiped clean.
Let me know ASAP. Can't wait for your response. Cheers!
Yes, I sincerely believe that the world is ending next year.
No, I won't make a bet with you, though I am emptying my assets as part of what I can do to get the information to everyone in the world. Making a side bet with you wouldn't make you believe that May 21, 2011 is Judgment Day. It would do nothing to convince you. You can actually only believe it if the Lord opens your eyes to what is coming from the Bible today. That is between you and the Lord. What's more, there is a verse in the Bible that forbids me to entertain silly questions such as that.
{2 TIMOTHY 2:23: But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.}
May the Lord bless you with opened eyes.
You're right tsalagicelt,
Making a bet with you certainly wouldn't make me believe the notion that this world is ending in less than 5 months, but it would surely make me $1000 richer haha. So basically the flipside of your argument would be that if I did believe the world would end in May '11 that you WOULD pay me? If I told you I believed, but still told you to give me $1000, I STILL don't think you would pay me, so your argument here is invalid.
It really isn't a silly question tsalagicelt, think about it. Why would I ask you to bet me? In all honesty it's not for the money, $1000 will not change my life. I asked you to bet me to gauge your level of seriousness when making an extremely bold statement such as you did. So it's not silly man. The fact that you don't want to bet me and how your dismissing my question as "silly" shows that in actuality you don't stand behind what you're saying. You're just making excuses man. If you're emptying your assets anyway, what does it matter to pass $1000 my way?
Your bible quote, doesn't phase me. Simply because i'm not Christian.
I do have another question for you though. Where will you be on the 20th of May 2011 at 11:59PM?
You're not gauging me right. I explained my reasons. You want to assume that I'm just blowing hot air, that's your right to do. I *know* that you wouldn't believe me even if I agreed to the bet, because God's Word tells me so. God commands me NOT to engage in that sort of fruitless behavior, so we're at an impasse.
What you don't know is that I really am voting with my money, and a great crowd of people are doing the same thing I am. In the past couple of months, hundreds of billboards have been going up all over America telling people that they will experience Judgment Day on May 21, 2011. That's a lot of little people paying for those billboards, individually. That's many millions of dollars spent. I'm telling you to wake up and notice it, and you'll have your answer about our seriousness. By the way, this is happening all over the world, as well, but I am less informed about most of that than about the activities in my own country. However, we've had billboards up in Africa for about 1 1/2 years now (I've been paying for some of that myself, so I know about it).
I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.
[We can both maintain our dignity in this conversation -- nobody has to out-argue the other. I'm not interested in verbal tug-of-war.]
May the Lord richly bless you.
tsalagicelt,
You are funny.
So are your Bronze-age myths.
I feel honour-bound to tell you that I did extensive Bible studies in college, under the auspice of scholars both Jesuit and Jewish and, of course, I have a tendency to trust their views rather than those of your sect (the operative word being scholars, something that Harold Camping, his civil engineering degree notwithstanding, is not).
I will not bet any money. I'll just come back on May the 22th and gloat for a while.
Schadenfreude shall be mine (look the word up in a dictionary, unless they are banned by your church).
And, please, don't send me no "blessings" from your "Lord". I have no use for a vain, jealous, attention-hungry projection of the ancient Hebrew priests' worse traits.
==========
"You ever noticed how people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved?" Bill Hicks
You are showing your bias against something larger and more complex than yourself. You were created by an infinite being, the only such one, by the way. Almighty God has your number. On May 22nd, you won't have the heart to try to gloat, since you'll know this is true.
Feel free to deprecate me or any of those many millions who happen to agree with me. We will remain in the very tiny minority, up until October 21, 2011, of course. At that point, all those still on Earth will be destroyed along with all of the other fallen creation, including the whole universe. The only ones left will be those who knew this to be true, and who were lifted out of this frame of reference, to Heaven, before the destruction. We'll be a 100% majority, then.
May the Lord bless you with opened spiritual eyes and ears.
I'll not respond to you again. I leave you to your path.
Hang on sunshine, you've just shifted the end of time back by six months.
sharecmkenny said:
> Hang on sunshine, you've just shifted the end of time back by six months.
Not at all. What I just did is give you a little bit more information, more granularity into the structure of Judgment Day. It begins on May 21, 2011, but it continues for 5 calendar months (mentioned twice in the book of Revelation).
That 5-month period is essentially Hell-on-Earth, meant to be the time during which those knew the Lord's will (which is to say, knew the Bible, counted themselves incorrectly to be Christians, and had heard the warning about May 21, 2011 being Judgment Day), but who ignored or rejected it, will be given "many stripes" (lashes with a whip) for that special disobedience. Everyone else will merely be deserving of "few stripes". You'll find that in Luke 12:47-48. Those lashes are meant metaphorically, of course. There'll be no one literally whipping them. No, it's far worse than that. These people will have to experience the sight of the truly-saved people being lifted up off the Earth, bodily, to join the Lord in Heaven, while they are left behind. That realization will be the source of their punishment, their torment, though the world will literally deteriorate into chaos, as well, and that will be another, shall we say, inconvenience. God will mercifully end these people's existence, once and for all, on October 21, 2011, when He does literally destroy this entire universe by special fire (not from any natural cause) from Heaven.
Again, check it all out on www.weCANknow.com -- all sorts of free books on the subject, thorough Bible studies demonstrating that this is true. You deserve to check out the impossible-but-really-there corroborative proofs from the Bible. Nothing like these proofs have ever been found or offered. No other group ever had such proofs. This is an earth-shaking event that should make you sit up and smell the coffee, because these proofs aren't faked, or creatable by man. Do check them out for yourself.
I like to quote a line from a famous movie at this point: "It is an event sociological." I'm sure this crowd can get that movie reference instantly.
I promised I would come back on the 22nd to gloat.
And I keep my promises.
Whatever happened to your rapture?
======================
"You ever noticed how people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved?" Bill Hicks
tsalagicelt is probably too embarrassed to show up here again.
share[deleted]
seriously, all of this childish "he works in mysterious ways!" reasoning should be subtitled over footage of german soldiers stacking jew corpses. "wow! i wish i could understand why god's plan for me and my family is to burn alive! im sure the answer is beyond my comprehension" the bible is full of stories where god intervenes or has conversations with people or exacts revenge. miracles, like the blind seeing, oceans spreading, some a hole building a boat by himself and managing to transport 2 of every life form on it (how the kcuf did he manage to get not one lion but TWO to comply to get on the boat?), as well as other animals/food to feed the animals he needed to transport, why do they happen only in the bible and not in real life? did the magic run out at some point? i dont get it, shouldnt gnarly *beep* still be happening today? and why cant i talk to god? i swear i tried like fifteen times when i was a kid and got no response.
i would LOVE to hear his/her explanation of why we arent experiencing hell on earth right now. i cant believe ANYONE even references the bible today, they must not know how many times/how long that turd was being passed down via word of mouth, or they know and they've never played a game of telephone, or theyre christians and they disregard logic to make sense of things. oh well.
And even now, still no rapture. Awww...too bad buddy.
sharegrow up
~I see a little silhouette of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango.
Blowing hot air? And of course, nobody is interested in a verbal tug-o-war....with irrational people such as yourself that is quite impossible.
If you were an honourable person, like so many cult religions, patronised by nutters such as yourself, have you considered taking your own life on any future specified date denoting the end of the world? Your god would surely welcome you with open arms?!
@ tsalagicelt
I'd like to point out to you that in the Bible, Jesus himself says that he does not know when the end of the world is coming (matthew 24:36). I would strongly ask you to re examine your theology before claiming with certainty that the judgment day is may 21, 2011.
I respectfully tell you that you do not understand what that verse, Matthew 24:36, and its companion verse, Mark 13:32 (which is actually the one to which you refer when you claim that the Bible says that Jesus does not know the date of His own return). Jesus is Almighty God, as Isaiah 9:6, among many other verses, makes plain. He never ceased to be God, and to ALWAYS KNOW EVERYTHING, because that is one of the aspects of God. Therefore, when Mark 13:32 would seem to people, at first casual reading, to imply that Jesus somehow lost His omniscience when He entered a tent of human flesh, we can KNOW WITH ABSOLUTE CLARITY that that verse is deeper than we realize, and that it is saying something OTHER than what we **think** it is saying. That's a giant hint, in fact, that we need to study the matter more carefully, because God NEVER stops knowing everything, no matter His circumstance.
Let me actually bring forth the verses, so that it is fresh in our minds.
=====
MATTHEW 24:36: But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
---
MARK 13:32: But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
---
ISAIAH 9:6: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, **THE MIGHTY GOD**, **THE EVERLASTING FATHER**, The Prince of Peace.
=====
I've studied this matter out very carefully, taking into account EVERYTHING the Bible says on the matter of what those two verses REALLY MEAN. 1 Corinthians chapter 2, verses 9-14 inform us about what that phrase "knoweth no man" actually means, because it uses the same exact phrase. God is telling us to study that passage and to RECONCILE it to Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32, therefore. When one does that, they will find out that that passage in 1 Corinthians tells us there are two kinds of people, the unsaved and the saved. Saved people have been given a new heart, one which the Holy Spirit TELLS THINGS TO, spirit-to-spirit. If we are really saved, we hear the Holy Spirit tell us things as we read and study His Word, which is the only way in which God will communicate with us in our era, when His Word is complete.
[God placed a proscription against any new supernatural action or information coming from Him, other than what is already in the Bible, in Revelation 22:18-19. We dare not trust feelings or dreams or visions, because God won't use them today. Satan and his minions, however, are free to violate the veil between the natural world and the supernatural one. They'll give a person whatever spiritual experiences they desire, but they'll all be merely lies and tricks leading to destruction.]
In our era, the Time Of The End, when the seal against understanding the end-time prophecies in the Bible has been removed by God, the things we'll be told by the Holy Spirit as we study the Bible includes the details of Judgment Day, including the very date, May 21, 2011. It is not a violation of the statement that "of that date and [that] hour no man knoweth", because we've discovered in 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 that the truly-saved person is TOLD things, things that, as it says in verse 14 of that passage, are "SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED". They do not come from our own innate knowledge, but from outside of our own soul, from God's Holy Spirit, given to us. **THAT** is how both of these things can be true. The unsaved person cannot know these things, but the saved human being can know whatever the Holy Spirit would have them to know, because He tells them. We've discovered, through careful, obedient Bible study, that in our day, that includes the date of Judgment Day.
There is a reason for that. God set watchmen over the spiritual house of Israel, in Ezekiel chapter 33. This is the fulfillment of that prophecy. We are commanded to sound the trumpet of alarm, because we've seen the sword come upon the land. Our job is to tell EVERYONE ELSE. Most people will ignore this information, but that is part of God's plan, too, for they are being judged by their reaction.
Now, if you really want to go into the very long Bible study that reveals what Mark 13:32 means when it says "neither the son" (note that I didn't capitalize "son" there, because the original Greek didn't have it capitalized, either. Greek only had a single case of letters when the New Testament was written, so all letters were in a single case, upper-case), we can do that, but that's really a subject for another venue, don't you think? Let me try to sum it up, though. Jesus, as the PERFECT SON, is modeling that perfect Son-nature for us in the Bible, and God the Father is modeling the PERFECT FATHER nature for us. They are, together, modeling the PERFECT FATHER-SON RELATIONSHIP. That is for our benefit. Jesus is modeling the true believer's relationship with God for us. As such, as that perfect Son, formally, He only knows what the Father tells Him, and only after He tells Him. He also ONLY does what the Father tells Him to do. A son is, ideally, the ideal extension of his father's will and hand. The Bible is modeling that for us, for us to understand our own relationship to God, as sons of God. However, Jesus is only MODELING that. He is still God, and as God, He always knows everything. He only **FORMALLY** knows a limited amount, because He's playing the part of the perfect Son. **INFORMALLY**, He knows EVERYTHING, ALWAYS. That's what the Bible really is teaching.
This poster is crazy. No one knows when the Second Coming is. Revelation 22:18-19 does not say the God will not use dreams or visions today. In fact Revalation was not even the last book in the Bible written.
shareYou're sure of those assertions, are you? Your basis for your reasoning is what, exactly? Oh, you've been taught to think that way, by people who claim to know the Bible better than you, eh? Well, that cuts no ice with God, who commands us ALL to do our own thorough Bible study, not to rely on people who came before us. God always said that a "TIME OF THE END" (from Daniel) would come, when the seals placed against understanding end-time prophecies would be removed, and as it says in Daniel 12:4, "KNOWLEDGE SHALL BE INCREASED". People not doing their own **exhaustive** Bible study, all the while carefully following the Bible's own embedded rules (God's hermeneutic) for coming to truth in the Word of God, get to have the "STRONG DELUSION" (from 2 Thessalonians 2:11) of false doctrines, called "DOCTRINES OF DEVILS" by the Bible in 1 Timothy 4:1.
We happen to be living in that day, the Time Of The End, with the proof that, suddenly, a great amount of the hidden information in the Bible, from the "dark sayings" (Psalm 78:2, Proverbs 1:6), is being furnished by God. The newer, fuller understanding is literally gushing from the Bible today. That's why we have discovered the proper understanding of the time-line from Creation all the way through the events in the Bible, never before properly understood. That has led to the knowledge of the prophesied end of the world, to the very date, rendered to the truly-saved people only, not to the "natural man" (the unsaved person), who cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, because they are "SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" (1 Corinthians 2:14) as one studies the Bible obediently. The "natural man" can never learn these things before they occur, though he will hear them, oh yes, he will. You are hearing them now. However, unless God has truly saved you, you won't be able to receive and know they are true.
May the Lord grant you spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear, if it be His will to do so. I leave you to your path. I won't respond again. Have your say, your last word.
So, is judgment day coming tomorrow?
shareOOPS, looks like May 21 has come and gone!! So, who's got the next prediction? As the GPS says, "recalculating"!
sharetsalagicelt is a Christian fanatic, for those that believe his religious *beep* steer clear.
share"May 21, 2011 is guaranteed to happen"
this is off topic to the question but i wanna reply it
judgement day is not on 21 may 2011:
Exodus 20:7
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
do not tell false things in the name of bible
most signs that mentioned in the book of Revelation have not yet happened, therefore, judgement day is not 21 may 2011. thats all, i try to make it simple.
You are not obeying the Bible's own embedded rules, within its pages, that specify how to understand the Bible. If you had followed those rules, and only them, you would have arrived at the same fact, that May 21, 2011. Man's own ideas for how to understand the Bible are man-made nonsense, and are disobedient to those rules specified by God, and of course man's hermeneutics result in false doctrines. You are sure, based on nothing valid, that May 21, 2011 is not Judgment Day. I am certain that it is, based on God's own interpretation of scriptures, which one receives by scrupulous adherence to God's prescribed rules for understanding His Word. It takes EXHUAUSTIVE comparison of scripture with scripture, and constant correction from previous ideas, and piecing together the information, in a manner demonstrated by scripture (read Isaiah 28:10) to receive God's own meaning of scripture. I am not saying this pridefully, because no one can do that, unless God wills that and enacts that. I have been guided to this information, as have millions of other people who are, as I, doing independent Bible study, trusting no man's opinion. I suggest you do the same. You have less than 4 weeks to beseech the Lord for the the truth of the statement that May 21, 2011 is Judgment Day. Don't waste your time. Ask God to show you whether it is true or not. Beseech Him for salvation, and don't stop, because we must wait upon Him. Salvation is not guaranteed from doing that, because we cannot know if we have been elected by God unto salvation prior to actually being saved (and the assurance doesn't come on our command even then), but God is not a sadist either, and He commands us to beseech Him for salvation. That's a most hopeful fact.
May the Lord give you spiritual eyes and ears.
I won't respond again in this forum. People have been given enough information. The rest is God's business entirely.
Tsalagicelt, NOTHING will happen on 5/21/11 and your crazy INSANE bible will be proven WRONG yet again!!
If you had any SENSE you would realize the bible is nothing but ARAB mythology!! In that part of the world you had Sumerian myth, Greek myth, Roman myth, Arab myth, etc.
HATEFUL ignorant MORONS like you fail to realize that IF any god exists he would be respectful of ALL cultures which is why you can so easily DEBUNK your HATEFUL bible!! The bible condems 98% of the world!!
The bible condems every cultural/religious belief outside of Palestine!! It only says your hateful ARAB religion is acceptable while condemning every other culture on earth!!
To the ignorant Christnuts here Europe is NOT Christian. The true native European religion is Nordic, Celtic, Germanic, etc. The first Easter was 2500 BC and is about the Celtic goddess Eostore, not about the MYTHICAL Arab Jesus!!
Hey dude, you got 4 days left before you're raptured away LOL... are you all packed, or are you going to be taken up nekkid?
sharei truly believe in god but i can guarantee judgement is not on 21may2011. i read and i know bible (but not understand most of it). i read book of revelation. i attend church too.
but lets make it simple, judgement is not tmr, guaranteed.
It's August 2011...so?
shareRecalculating ...
shareThere might be scarier thoughts about why God let Hitler survive all the assassination attempts. Maybe he was ok with Hitler doing his awfull thing. I doubt that though, because the excistence of "a creator" is far from logical.
shareevidence of it can be seen in The Balfour Declaration, which made that a stated goal of England
it's quite obvious that the creation of Israel as a nation in 1948 was primarily made accomplishable by the horrendous suffering of the Jews in Europe in the Hitler era
We are in that Time Of The End right now, when the seal placed by God on the Bible against understanding all of the end-time prophesies has been removed.
detailed, exhaustive, careful and obedient Bible study that demonstrates that May 21, 2011 is Judgment Day
Der Himmmel ist offenshare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDaqgfGLQmA
Thusnelda wrote:
> And then? Aren't millions of Jews in Israel to be killed, according to these Christian prophecies? Do you want that? []
The "Christian prophecies" to which you refer are not legitimate. I don't subscribe to them. They were made by premillennialist Baptists, and all of them were made before the Time Of The End, when the seal placed by God on the end-time prophecies in the Bible was removed and those prophecies were then understandable. These men were trying to make sense of those end-time matters BEFORE that time came, and therefore all of that was utterly wrong.
> Oh, and not this date in dec. 2012, according to this Maya Calendar?
The Mayans were Satan-worshipers. Any false religion is actually Satan-worship, and remember, these people tore the still-beating heart from their unwilling victims as a way of worshiping their god. That's obviously Satan, not actual God. **Of course** their information was all wrong.
The Mayans were Satan-worshipers. Any false religion is actually Satan-worship, and remember, these people tore the still-beating heart from their unwilling victims as a way of worshiping their god. That's obviously Satan, not actual God. **Of course** their information was all wrong.
bravefish, Satan is a being who was created at the beginning of the world, a real person. He isn't merely a mental construct or idea. True, the Bible wasn't begun to be written until about 3,500 years ago, but that isn't when Satan was first heard from. You act like people didn't think or speak before they invented writing. Just because the Babylonians started writing a couple of hundred years before God had Moses write down the first 5 books of the Bible doesn't mean that Babylon invented Satan. Satan influenced Babylon, as an evil spirit, from its beginning. Nimrod, the archetypal Babylonian and inventor of same, was completely possessed with him and that culture was completely effused with him.
The Mayans may not have had a concept of Satan, but they nevertheless worshiped him, as does every society that deviates from worship of the true Almighty God, their Creator. They see him as a powerful spirit being, and in their diminished state, they consider any such being to be a god. The Mayans were no exception.
You like to believe the flattering idea that mankind invented all these concepts, of God and of the devil and of Heaven and the rest of it, but that's not actually so. Man is a created thing. Evolution is a crock, non-science and corrupt theory at that.
We're not going to get into a useless philosophy debate, so I'll disengage at this point.
Honestly, I'm stunned... There's so much wrong in that post that it'd be hard to know where to start.. You didn't get one single thing right, amazing. It's hard to fathom how someone's world-view can be so twisted and so wrong... So yes, it'd be better to drop it.
I do wonder what you'll post after May 21, 2011 has come and gone without a hitch and there was no Judgment Day, no Rapture or any other such nonsense.
Hey, May 21, 2011 has come and gone and we're all still here. What happened?
shareguybland asked, on June 13, 2011:
> Hey, May 21, 2011 has come and gone and we're all still here. What happened?
I wasn't going to bother to answer this question, because it would do no one any good to know the answer to it, since the Day Of Salvation ended on May 21, 2011. However, someone else tracked me down to a different discussion for an entirely different movie, which isn't even tangentially related to the discussion of the end of the world in 2011. I gave him an answer there. I now realize that that sort of inappropriate barging-in may continue to happen unless I answer it here, where it belongs, because this is the discussion that brought it up in the first place. Here, due to the question asked by the O.P., it is at least tangentially relatable. Therefore, here is my explanation. I copy it in-line here from that other discussion to which I referred. Please, let this suffice. I'm not going to debate this. As I said, no one will benefit from any further discussion, since no one can become saved any longer. Everyone who was slated to become saved **has** become saved.
*******************
HERE IS MY RESPONSE
*******************
The world is still ending this year. As I already reported, Judgment Day is a 153-day period that began on May 21, 2011 and ends on October 21, 2011, when the world (the whole cosmos is meant) will be destroyed by fire. The only errors we made were in assuming that the earthquake that kicks it off on May 21, 2011 was meant physically. It was actually meant as a spiritual shaking of all the unsaved, and they *did* feel it. There will be a very physical earthquake on October 21, 2011, the one that will raise all the dead bodies of the unsaved to the surface to be thrown out as dung. It will also open the graves of the saved dead, who will be given new, perfect bodies that will live forever. These people will be seen rising to Heaven, and then the saved who remain alive on this Earth will also be transformed into new, perfect bodies and rise to Heaven.
We assumed that the earthquake on May 21, 2011 was going to be physical -- on better inspection with the Hebrew and the Greek original of the Bible, we should have seen that a spiritual shaking was in view. We also made an assumption that the Rapture would occur at the beginning, another error of not double-checking the translation using the original languages, because translators had used a word that implies immediacy that is not always a correct translation of the original Greek word. So, the error was on our part, but that is the nature of even obedient Bible study, always being continually corrected as we study in more careful detail.
There is no error in the fact that the Bible declared that May 21, 2011 was the end of the Day of Salvation and the beginning of Judgment Day, and that October 21, 2011 is the end of the world. The false Christians (those who are not truly saved), are currently being tormented, spiritually, by the continual reminder that they are not saved and that salvation is not possible for them. Those who did not claim any relationship with Christ are not in torment at this time. They remain blissfully ignorant of their situaiton, which is God's intention, right up until October 21, 2011, when they will be destroyed.
May the Lord bless you with all mercies that are currently still available.
The world didn't end on May 21 and won't end on 10/21/11 because the bible is just a bunch a fairy tales written by superstitious desert dwellers and you're a NAIVE MORON if you believe it!!
NONE of the insane supernatural claims it makes have ever come true and NEVER will ever come true and the MYTHICAL Jesus won't EVER "come back"!
Even if the Bible were true the world would not end in October. They are just following a lot of numerological nonsense.
shareYou just keep telling yourself that. That'll really help you out when your end comes on October 21, 2011.
I won't respond again to this sort of skewed thinking and insulting statement. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. There is no longer any purpose in even discussing the matter, because the Day Of Salvation is over. I hereby leave this thread.
It's October 21st!! Happy Rapture!!.... Oh, wait.. nothing happened, again! Just some egg on your face.. haha, the rapture, silly fundies..
shareWhose end came October 21st?
shareWho wants to bet me that this guy killed himself? He hasn't made a real comment since BEFORE October 21st. Yep... recalculating indeed.
shareOkay then, it's 2012 now (hey I'm still alive?? :O) so how long is this process?? :D Wat's the new date my friend? Only because I want to be ready for the end :D :D :D
shareSO I guess you are wrong for sure now..No 'world destroyed by fire' .
idiot
"May 21, 2011 and ends on October 21, 2011, when the world (the whole cosmos is meant) will be destroyed by fire. The only errors we made were in assuming that the earthquake that kicks it off on May 21, 2011 was meant physically. It was actually meant as a spiritual shaking of all the unsaved, and they *did* feel it. "
What proof is there that there was a spiritual shaking?
There's quite a bit of proof that we discovered, several verses. One is Amos 9:9, which literally refers to a "shaking" operation when you look carefully at the Hebrew word for the verb "sift". This verse is an oblique reference to the earthquake that begins Judgment day, which occurred on May 21, 2011. It can, indeed, refer to a spiritual shaking-up of the grain (the true believers) and the rest of the husk and stalk of the plant (the unsaved that only falsely claimed to be saved). There are other verses that combine to give the understanding. That's all I'll say, since there isn't any reason to carry this disussion further, the Day Of Salvation being now ended.
> Let me ask you; what will you do on May 22, 2011 when you wake up and the
> world is still there just as it was a couple of days before?
"That is the question we are most asked. My answer is that it isn't possible, because of the many miraculous corroborative proofs found after we discovered that May 21, 2011 is Judgment Day "
Looks like it is possible and that you are answering the question now. Why should we believe anything that you or Camping says?
Listen, I disagree with your assertion that nothing occurred on May 21, 2011. Nothing that the unsaved can perceive occurred, but that doesn't mean that nothing occurred. It will become very apparent on October 21st, when very physical destruction occurs. Thus, no, I am not explaining a failure. Judgment Day did begin, and is going on right now, and it ends on October 21, 2011 with the final destruction of everything in this cosmos, the saved people lifted up out of it to Heaven on that day.
Actually, there are some things that happened that the unsaved should be able to perceive, but they aren't being honest with themselves about those changes, because they are all spiritual. Their spiritual relationship with whatever god they worshipped, be it merely science or their own mind (because those aren't really what they worship -- all idolatry really devolves to Satan worship), will now be completely unfruitful. Satan and his henchmen, the fallen angels, now called demons and devils, have all lost their power and their position. They aren't giving anyone any spiritual "jollies" any longer, because of the fact that they are decommissioned. Therefore, whatever spiritual feelings or manifestations that fueled all systems of worship, except for that of worship of the true God by the actually-saved people, is now bankrupt, bereft of any of the usual so-called benefits. The practitioners are high-and-dry, and must be increasingly aware of it, and increasingly frustrated, angry, and frightened. People aren't going to admit to that, because the thought will frighten them too much, but that's what is going on at this very moment.
Now, that all said, I told you that I wasn't going to debate this any longer, because it does no one any good, and because this has already gone on too long. I merely chose to answer your incorrect assertion prior to exiting from this thread.
You are just trolling aren't you. You don't really believe this crap. Before May 21 you said that it was impossible that mistakes were made and recently you admitted there was a mistake: "The only errors we made were in assuming that the earthquake that kicks it off on May 21, 2011 was meant physically"
Will you be making further excuses about only a few errors once October passes without anything happening?
[deleted]
[deleted]
Had Hitler been assassinated,then the United States would not be the most powerful nation in the world.
Remember that Hitler's opponents plan to deal with Russia.Imagine a combination of power in both Germany and Russia had the coup succeeded.
That would have been a disaster.
It was a good thing that the God allowed Hitler to survive and what happened was Germany was divided into two countries with East Germany belonging to the Russians and West Germany belonging to the Allies namely the United States,France and United Kingdom.
It was for the best of the world to happen.
Oh bless the lord...October 21. How dare you pluck this date from your hat of random guesses to yet again predict your delusional theories. That was over four years ago, so still waiting. Come on, get your act together!!
shareOh dear I must have missed Judgment Day on May 21, 2011. Did anything happen?
shareHoly smokes, did you prove them wrong or what? Just like you said, I died in 2011 along with the rest of the universe. If only I had listened. :(
shareI only read your comment today and it appears I totally missed Judgement Day. I was totally ignorant of this event and I totally missed it. So, I just wanted to ask if you can please let me know if there's another one scheduled for the near future, I wouldn't like to miss it this time. Such an important event, I wouldn't miss it for the world.
shareFor *beep* sake.
It does address the question.
If a child asks "why did a unicorn run over my puppy and kill it?" when not only do unicorns not exist but the actual person responsible was not a unicorn, then explaining that a unicorn didn't run over and kill that childs puppy because it doesn't exist ANSWERS the question.
This is the problem with you Christians (and before you hilariously deny it, it's hardly taking a shot in the dark when you're spouting the same nonsense Christian fundies always spout). You can't grasp that your loaded question can be answered by the point that God doesn't exist.
Secondly, you're terrible attempt to dismiss Occam's Razor doesn't play here. There is no "belief" in atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in deities. And given the factual relation God or god/s have to Hitler's survival...that no God exists is the simple answer. Theism (or 'God', since you can't grasp that there isn't just one religion) isn't equal in this.
Thirdly, futher hilarity. The typical Christian apologetics. You include people who never attend the church they were born into, never pray, never wear religious jewelry and never practice any form of worship to be Christian because they haven't known anything else and genuinely think that it's an unchangable part of them. Simply because they were never taught any different.
And yet when faced with atheism (an agnostic who lacks belief in deities is an atheist, it is not a "third option), you declare it to be the fallacious "no atheists in fox holes" apologetics we hear every single damn time you're met with the sheer possibility that someone doesn't hold a belief in your deity.
Sorry chump, welcome to reality. Christianity isn't the only religion and hundreds and hundreds of millions of people around the world not only lack religion itself but lack belief in deities.
The fact you are that *beep* ignorant enough to think wondering where the universe came from means an inherent belief in deities just further proves our point.
Why does everyone on these board have to be high and might and pretentious. Everyone on here are so full of themselves and just plain rude. Stop being a fu**ing d**k.
shareBecause god doesn't exist. The bible thumpers are downright delsional since Jesus is nothing more than Arab mythology.
People who even think for a second Jesus can "come back" need to go to the nut house since beings can't simply fall out of the sky like that unless they are dead birds falling out of the sky!
Humans did not create God. Whether or not you believe, were taught to believe, or choose to believe has no bearing on God's existence, only on your own. God does not care whether you believe in him or not, the choice is yours. You have His permission to do so. and you will receive His approval if you do. If you choose to deny Him, you are on your own.
shareYes, children do like to have imaginary friends for comfort. Its perfectly natural, for children.
shareThe blame for the Holocaust lies squarely on the shoulders of sinful humanity. The Holocaust was the product of sinful choices made by sinful men in rebellion against a holy God.
Churchill, the world’s politicos took the route of isolation or appeasement. Neither worked.
Der Untersbergshare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AkHvYH-Wog
Thusnelda wrote"
> What about the tens of millions systematically slaughtered by communism
> (among them at least 6 million Ukranians murdered in the Holodomor)?
> How do they “fit it” with “God”?
That wasn't the issue brought up by the original poster. These deaths were yet another example of the sinfulness of unsaved people's hearts, of course. The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). We shouldn't be surprised that these terrible things occur in a world filled with evil-hearted humans.
God lets all of this play out. Judgment Day is coming soon enough, and it will clear all of this away, balance the scales and all that. Mankind brought all of this upon himself by sinning. He was made perfect, and was made without inclination to sin, but he overtly chose to do so. That's an horrible thing. It turned us all into terrible rebels and criminals, all descendants of the first man Adam. We are guilty of our own sins, of course, not of Adam's sin, but we can't escape our heritage of being the children of Adam and Eve.
The tens of millions of people killed by Soviet communism, or the more than 100 million killed by Chinese communism (mostly between 1955 and 1965) are horrible, but they weren't themselves directly related to bringing about the sign of the Fig Tree coming back into leaf (but not into fruit -- no saved people in modern Israel, to speak of). Of course, the Soviets did play a smaller part to make this happen, by how they affected Hitler's Germany.
[deleted]
So Jesus comes down to earth and saves us from our sins, but God can't get off his throne to rescue millions of Jews suffering atrocious deaths in gas chambers?
Don't be fooled. Christianity is no different than Scientology, etc.
Bah! The fact that religion covers everthing in such a nice and tidy manner is evidence AGAINST it's truth, in my estimation. "Sit back, God has all the answers." TOO convenient.
shareYou are right, the world will continue to witness ethnic cleansing, even one is currently in progress in Palestine since 1948 and it's done by the people who suffered from `holocaust'. too bad Palestinians don't have a movie industry like hollywood to make movies about it.
shareThe difference is the Jews died in ovens and the USA is the biggest home to Jews outside Israel.
shareBecause "god" wanted the complete destruction of Germany. In the first World War Hitler survived numerous close calls, sometimes he was the only survivor in an entire company. For him to not have had a guardian angel is close to impossible.
Stupid speech! you better speech in *beep* church about god's cruel ways and thoughts.
shareGhandi said "in the end, good will always conquer evil, think about it, always"
shareThere is no god...or santa
~I see a little silhouette of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango.
Mm, your response is pretty much a case of "Heads I win, tails you lose" defense of God.
With such rationality, literally anything bad can be excused away to be not God's fault or design (like the mantra of "conservatism cannot fail, it can only be failed"), and literally everything good is credited to his infinite wisdom alone.
Can't have it both ways. Either God is responsible for both the good and bad, or he is for neither.
Heck even the OT clearly shows God as the ultimate cause of all evil (he is the one whom actually directs Satan to attack Job, for Satan does literally nothing on his own accord but talk, and whom floods the world, and causes famines and destruction of cities).
You may say he had good reasons (evil short term results somehow in greater good long term), but you're not saying that. You're saying that everything good is God's and everything bad is ours.
Hahaha. Probably. But since 90% of the world believes in a supreme being, I would like to know their views as well.
90%, what planet are you on?
~I see a little silhouette of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango.
There is no god therefore god didn't "let" Hitler survive.
Your name suits you.
share[deleted]
[deleted]
Well, "God" is a man-made concept. So is government. So are plots, ploys, conspiracies, theories, hypothesies and religion. Guns are man-made, so are bullets, swords, tanks, bombs and uniforms. All are imperfect. Luck is also a man-made concept. Combine all elements and viola! Hitler lives.
shareI LOL'd...
shareNot at all. The idea that God is a man-made concept is itself merely a man-made idea. God is real, and He predates all of the works of man. Reading the Bible and comparing the various parts of it, written hundreds and even thousands of years apart, seeing how they all fit together and how prophecies were fulfilled, these things demonstrate that the Bible is not the work of man but of God. A person reading the Bible with an open mind, and being willing to follow the Bible's own embedded specification for coming to truth (it has a God-prescribed hermeneutic within its pages), and willing to be exhaustively thorough, will discover this (that is, unless God doesn't allow the person to see the truth, which is possible, but anyone who persists in this action is showing something that has also been given by God).
**THIS** event on May 21, 2011 is guaranteed to happen -- there is NO HEDGING on this.
bravefish wrote:
> And would that be Greenwich Mean Time?
We actually don't have the time-of-day. There are a number of people who know that Jesus is returning on May 21, 2011 who have theories about what time-of-day it will be, but thus far, nothing definite and overruling of other theories has been discovered from the Bible. So, that's where we stand, that we have only a date, and not even a statement that that date will be in effect in the entire world or just in part of it when He returns. As a result, we have at least a 48-hour window where that date will be true somewhere in the world. We might be seeing it tighten to within a 24-hour window, if we can determine that the Lord must visibly return while it is May 21st in Jerusalem. There is reason to believe that we are in process of learning that. Hey, you asked.
> Let me ask you; what will you do on May 22, 2011 when you wake up and the
> world is still there just as it was a couple of days before?
That is the question we are most asked. My answer is that it isn't possible, because of the many miraculous corroborative proofs found after we discovered that May 21, 2011 is Judgment Day. These proofs were not made by man, and they weren't imagined, and they cannot be faked. We found them, within the Bible, while obeying the Bible's own rules for coming to truth in the Bible. They simply overrule the question, because with these shocking, unassailable proofs, God is signing His name to the GUARANTEE that this is going to happen. Let it sink in that prior to this instance, no group which ever claimed to know the date of the Lord's return EVER had any type of miraculous corroborations, things that can be independently verified as being statistically impossible. That's why I ask you to just look at the data. I'm a trained engineer, a science guy, and I know what real data look like, and I can tell you, this is not imaginary! Please, check the proofs for yourself. Read any of these.
"We Are Almost There": http://www.familyradio.com/PDFS/waat.html
"The Book Has Been Opened": http://www.the-latter-rain.com/the-book-has-been-opened.html
"The Doomsday Code": http://www.wecanknow.com/downloads/the-doomsday-code.pdf
These are so great to come back to and read now.
shareOk, I'm just curious to discuss this in terms of religion. So, if Hitler is pure evil, it would make sense for a greater entity to put a stop to it, right?
Der Untersbergshare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AkHvYH-Wog
[deleted]
"Why did God let Hitler survive all the assassination attempts?"
The question of why God allows evil has been asked for thousands of years in one form or another... yet, there's still no satisfactory answer.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?.....Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?.... Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?.... Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?.... Then why call him God?
As evil as Hitler was, his control of Greater Germany rested upon a lot of
initial popularity & upon German popular resentment at the Treaty of Versailles
that manifested itself in the "stab in the back" myth after WWI. Hence Hitler.
The Allies were in contact with some Conspirators, and gave them no help, because
they feared yet another "stab in the back" myth if they let Germany surrender
before all Germans could see the annihilation that Hitlerism would lead to.
After the failure of 7/20/1944, many surviving conspirators came to agree.
One of them was the Christian theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who finally
was executed for treason against Hitler.
We cannot know God's will, but along the lines of Bonhoeffer, we might suggest
the question that started this thread is ill-framed. The ultimate evil wasn't Hitler, it was the craving for a Hitler. The failure of Operation Valkyrie
wiped out Hitlerism, while the Marshall plan forestalled more resentment such as
followed Versailles. The Soviets did their bit by scaring W. Germany into the arms
of the Allies. Perhaps that was the best God could do, given human recalcitrance.
I believe God works through human agents and their free will.
It is too bad some people always take it to be a discussion if there is a God or not, when that was not your question at all. They could have instead viewed it as why did this occur, period!
I really enjoyed that you ask such a thoughtful introspective question of good against evil. Questions like this can really be so deep and bring up even more questions that can be very intense.
I do like several of the members comments to you. They show intelligence and knowlege some do not possess and were brave enough to post. I want to add something very simple to ponder on as to why sometimes bad things occur from something I have just figured out the last couple of years. We, as humans never learn well from situations that are good and positive! I have noted this time and again. If a situations outcome is wonderful, we are estatic but we don't seem to retain it as a learning curve. We just celebrate it and move forward. It does help us grow and evolve in that we have that more strength and hope to keep going and looking for more. The saddest thing is we do learn lessons from the worst things that happen in life. Over and over, this has been proven. Just looking at your own relationships with others you will find that when something rotten happens and you are thinking why me?, later on you will come to an understanding that there was a lesson in it and it will evolve you to hopefully a better person. Sometimes people learn it as a negative and they become bitter or worse marked for life, they don't often see for years how they can move on...but when they do it is life changing. This in essence is the free will of life, where are you going to take this too? ARe you going to make it part of your journey of improving yourself or are you going to be a victim and not able to wrap your mind around it for life?
The holocaust was so horrific, I know some of the things I am mentioning are insconsequential and not even a blip to what those people when through but I wanted to place this in an everyday way you can understand. Frankly, the holocaust is so unbearable to me, I have a hard time even wrapping my head around it. So please understand how I have had to break it down to more everyday things we deal with. I think for some people they have a really rough road, like past child abuse or rape or anything absolutely horrible and they make take a long time to heal, but when they do, they are often the ones that become leaders in making changes to the better! Thank goodness there were and are survivors who can tell their stories and show us they still have compassion for others, they haven't become bitter but have moved on to help others about human strength, love, faith and hope. Even more so how to value each other as precious.
Dont really believe in god but sure as hell believe in Karma, his death in that bunker as well as being assassinated would have been too easy a death.
Think about it, what would you rather choose, dying without prior knowledge or inevitably pulling the trigger on yourself.
The Churches teaching on the question of why a loving, all knowing and supposedly all powerful God lets evil exist and flourish is this:
"Why does evil exist? So that a greater good can come out of it" I understand this view is simplistic at best and may not satisfy most of you but hey it's what they said though.
his death in that bunker
Mein Lebenslauf ist Lieb...share
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-LzTGjg8TM
It might not be God´s will but The Devil´s will instead.
Remember he is working on Earth very very very hard, and all the things people say it was God´s will, isnt, but the Devil´s will.
And the Nazis were very much tied to ocultism and satanic´s cults.
Especially Hitler and Himmler.
So, it makes lots of sense...Oh yeap.
I am talking from a religious point of view, that´s what the OP asked.
Do you recognize my voice...?
Or maybe--just possibly--it's simply the work of a twisted human being who captivated those in need of his charisma. Much more believable than unicorns, fairies and devils.
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My answer to this is a philosophical one rather than a religious one, although it assumes the existence of an all powerful and benign god, for the sake of argument if nothing else.
Basically it's all about free will. To use a simplistic model, an all powerful god can either dictate every turn of events or allow choice and free will. Which of these two courses is best? Dictating all events could mean a blissful existence for all, but what would be the point in that? Allowing choice and free will would bestow independence and provide the opportunity for peoples to create for themselves, but it would mean they also have the choice to do terrible things, for which the all powerful god would have to bear ultimate responsibility.
If you could create your own living world, which would you opt for? Absolute control over everything, or a world which you allowed to develop on its own, without direct interference?
If the second option is chosen, then it allows for existence of evil. This can be in various forms, such as a malevolent force headed by a Satanic devil, or simply innate inhumanity. If you want to allow true free will evil has to exist in some form. The all poweful being can help indirectly (e.g. creating saints, angels, prophets, or perhaps bestowing such values as a concience, a sense of empathy, pity, mercy and love into it's creations) but if it interferes directly (e.g. by meddling with Hitler's luck) then the whole point of the project is lost.
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It's because god doesn't exist and Jesus is a MYTHICAL character.
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