MovieChat Forums > Robin Hood (2010) Discussion > Woman in the battle field? come on!

Woman in the battle field? come on!


Am I really to believe that women were allowed being at the battle field during those times?

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Agreed. I this was clearly the weakest scene of the entire film.

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I wouldn't take it too seriously. I don't remember this film too well but I totally remember how I scoffed at this scene.

Like the other guy said, Hollywood has a thing these days about women in historical movies portrayed as trained sword fighters and warriors. For example, Cate Blanchette in armor as Elizabeth I -- okay no sword fighting, but I don't think Elizabeth I gave Henry V type battlefield speeches or ever wore armor for god's sake. It's just silly.

Mary Elizabeth Mastrontonio did similar stuff as Maid Marion.

Not to mention of course Lord of the Rings and that tiny little woman swinging that enormous sword. Fantasy, I know, but she'd have gotten killed in five minutes against a normal-sized, equally well-trained man.

They think audiences these days like to see women "kicking ass" and showing them to be equal to men, but historically accurate, it's not.

I'm not saying women can't be strong and trained and effective, but historically, they were not.

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For example, Cate Blanchette in armor as Elizabeth I -- okay no sword fighting, but I don't think Elizabeth I gave Henry V type battlefield speeches or ever wore armor for god's sake. It's just silly.

Actually that was one of the few things in that film that wasn't silly. As the Spanish Armada neared the shores of England, Elizabeth rode to the camp of her army at Tilbury wearing a silver cuirass with her helmet carried before her on a cushion. Once there, she delivered one of the most famous 'Henry V type battlefield speeches' in English history:

"My loving people
We have been persuaded by some that are careful of our safety, to take heed how we commit our selves to armed multitudes, for fear of treachery; but I assure you I do not desire to live to distrust my faithful and loving people. Let tyrants fear. I have always so behaved myself that, under God, I have placed my chiefest strength and safeguard in the loyal hearts and good-will of my subjects; and therefore I am come amongst you, as you see, at this time, not for my recreation and disport, but being resolved, in the midst and heat of the battle, to live and die amongst you all; to lay down for my God, and for my kingdom, and my people, my honour and my blood, even in the dust.
I know I have the body of a weak, feeble woman; but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and of a king of England too, and think foul scorn that Parma or Spain, or any prince of Europe, should dare to invade the borders of my realm; to which rather than any dishonour shall grow by me, I myself will take up arms, I myself will be your general, judge, and rewarder of every one of your virtues in the field.

I know already, for your forwardness you have deserved rewards and crowns; and We do assure you on a word of a prince, they shall be duly paid. In the mean time, my lieutenant general shall be in my stead, than whom never prince commanded a more noble or worthy subject; not doubting but by your obedience to my general, by your concord in the camp, and your valour in the field, we shall shortly have a famous victory over these enemies of my God, of my kingdom, and of my people."


Granted, she didn't actually do any fighting, nor did anybody present suppose that her speech meant that she planned to; it was all symbolic, and understood to be so. But she did actually wear the armour and give the speech.

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Well, just goes to show what happens when one talks first and does research later! Even as I wrote that post I was thinking, "Syntenin is going to come back and tell me that all that really happened and I will look like a moron."

Oh well.

Good to know though because that scene made me SO MAD!!! I suppose the speech itself should have clued me in -- that the screenwriters couldn't have written such a good speech.

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Well, it is odd, because everyone there must have known very well that it was utterly unreal - a sort of pageant. Ths Spanish hadn't even got as far as Land's End, and everyone knew that far from 'being their general' and going 'in the midst and heat of the battle, to live and die amongst you all', at the end of the day she was going to get back in her barge, be rowed back to London and leave them to it (because of course anything else would have been crazy). And yet, there's no question that everyone who was there, and everyone who heard about it (there were contemporary songs and poems telling the story) was madly impressed and thought they had never heard of such courage.

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Really really interesting.

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I just read Elizabeth's speech again and it seems that she might have been saying that, should England be on the verge of defeat by a foreign power, then she would wade into the battle to live and die amongst them all. Whereas, in the meantime, she would leave it to her lieutenant general.

It's interesting to wonder what she might have done had Spain been about to conquer England. Fight to the death? Or flee the country to try to retake it?

The second would be wiser, but the first is more inspirational, which was the point of the speech.

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Just to add, they were still being impressed (or possibly bored witless) by hearing about Elizabeth's speech nearly sixty years later. Sir John Arundel was the Royalist commander of Pendennis Castle in Cornwall when it was besieged by Parliament in 1646. He was in his seventies at the time and had been at Tilbury as a child when Elizabeth spoke. He was (allegedly) so fond of recounting the story that he was (although probably not to his face) known as 'Old Tilbury'.

Taking painting to the pictures ...
www.thepicturepalace.co.uk

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That's lovely. I mean, that people loved Elizabeth. I wish I could time travel.

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Only if they are leading an army of children... according to this film.

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Whatever the accuracy of it, the actual reason for Marion being depicted riding into battle and doing all the other feisty stuff she does is that film-makers are now being pressured into providing "female role models" and so history is being rewritten to a ridiculous degree.

It's not our fault, here in 2014, that centuries ago women were treated as second class citizens. Things were different then and it's laughable to try to depict them as though they weren't. It's not because history was written by men, it's because that's how it was.

And by the way, in large parts of the world today, women are STILL being treated that way - cover your face up, walk behind me - or worse.






Awight we're The Daamned we're a punk baand and this is called Carn't Be Appy T'day!

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History isn't being rewritten: new fiction is being written, with themes and characters that fit the moods of our times - just like previous fiction fit the moods of its times. Nothing new there.

"Occasionally I'm callous and strange."

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Really you need to read the book called Woman Warriors! there were in fact a lot of them during that era!

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It's a pretty generic combination of words, do you have the author's name? I'd love to see what evidence he or she uses to claim there were a lot of women warriors in the Middle Ages.

"Occasionally I'm callous and strange."

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What book would that be?

And does the author name a single woman who is proven to have actually fought in line of battle, on foot or horseback (as opposed to leading armies, commanding sieges, shooting from cover and chucking rocks from the battlements, all of which we here are all agreed was normal behaviour for women in the Middle Ages?

And the operative word here is 'proven'. Not stories reported generations later as 'some say...'

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Boudica

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As was already discussed in this thread nearly three years ago, none of the sources we have on Boudica's rebellion suggest that she did any fighting herself.

And though we know from the descriptions of her last battle that there were women with her army, they weren't in the British battle line but sitting in wagons behind it, presumably waiting for the battle to be won when they would patch up their own wounded, finish off the Roman wounded and strip the dead, so that when the British were forced back by the Romans they were pinned against their wagon-line and unable to get away. That's why so many were killed.

The fact that Boudica and her daughters got clean away from the massacre in her chariot (and what do you suppose they were doing in her chariot if she was fighting? A fighting chariot can really only have two people in it, the fighter and the charioteer: anyone else would just get horribly in the way) clearly suggests that she wasn't in the melee herself, but was watching it.

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Fine,

ARTEMISIA I OF CARIA

JOAN OF ARC

Triệu Thị Trinh

NAKANO TAKEKO

TOMOE GOZEN

GRACE O'MALLEY

Lozen

Zenobia

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Okay.

Joan of Arc:

- as previously discussed in this thread, didn't actually fight and never intended or pretended to.

Artemisia I of Caria, Grace O'Malley, Zenobia:

- raised and commanded armies and fleets, but none of the sources for their careers suggest that they physically did any fighting themselves. In this they were like many of the medieval ladies discussed earlier in this thread, such as Isabella of Castile, Matilda of Flanders.

Triệu Thị Trinh:

- Like them, she commanded an army, but the sources for her life are so legendary and often fantastical (nine feet tall with yard-long breasts thrown over her soldiers, walking 500 leagues a day, etc) that it's hard to be sure what her actual modus operandi was. But there are mentions of her riding into battle on an elephant: if that's what she did, although for sure you can shoot arrows and throw spears from an elephant's back, that would seem to rule out hand-to-hand combat,

Nakano Takeko, Tomoe Gozen:

- Ah, now you're cooking with gas! In the Samurai culture that they both grew up in, it was traditional and normal for girls to train with weapons; there were even weapons specially designed for female use. So although it wasn’t usual for them to fight on the battlefield (their training was generally intended to enable them to defend the household in an emergency) they had the skills to do so, and cases of women being successful in battle were not rare in Japan. Similarly, in medieval Mongolia girls grew up on horseback and were put to herding the family's livestock (which included defending them from predators and thieves) and hunting. So they were as skilled in riding, shooting from horseback and using a knife as their brothers were, and though it wasn't usual for them to ride into battle, it wasn't that rare either; several extremely successful Mongolian female warriors are known.

This was the crucial difference between Japanese and Mongolian women and European medieval women: in Europe it simply wasn't acceptable or even thinkable to train girls in knightly combat, and there are no documented cases of this happening. And you could not simply climb into a suit of armour, mount a destrier and go into battle like a knight without training, any more than today you could just climb into the cockpit of a fighter plane and fly it: there's a good reason why boys of the knightly class trained daily from their pre-teen years!

There's also the factor that the Japanese and Mongolian styles of fighting placed a premium on speed, agility and skill rather than strength. Although Western knightly combat wasn't quite such crude hack-and-bash stuff as it's sometimes assumed to have been, still like all heavy cavalry fighting it did favour weight, length of reach and sheer brute strength; so even with training, the average-sized woman would have been somewhat handicapped when facing an average-sized man.

Thank you for helping prove my point. (I'm not sure if you realised what my point actually was, but thank you anyway.)

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So your point is to prove your own misogyny through historical conjuncture passed off as detailed fact?

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Eh??????

You know, generation, I literally, honestly, don't have a clue what that's supposed to mean. 'My own misogyny'??? 'Historical conjuncture'????

Please explain, and I'll answer.

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[deleted]

Well???

You have thrown two serious accusations at me - 'misogyny' and 'pseudo-historical'. Both are particularly offensive to me, being as I am both a historian and a lifelong feminist. The least you can do is explain the grounds you feel you have for your accusations.

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Sarah Edmonds Seelye

Jennie Hodgers

Clara Barton

Deborah Sampson

Captain Molly

Mary Ludwig Hays

There, those are names recent enough where you can't pull the misogynistic pseudo-historical "records are sketchy at best."

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The question being debated in this thread is: did any medieval women fight on the battlefield as fully-armed knights (as Marian is depicted as doing in this movie)? Unless you are claiming that any of these women did that, they are utterly irrelevant to the question being debated here.

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It seems that the discussion in the thread is "did women fight in the battlefield as knights" that is true. But it also seems that you are discounting all evidence that they did as suspect.

The documentation isn't there to say either way, so you are proudly announcing that, despite the folklore that says they did, the lack of evidence in the Middle Ages is proof to you that they did not.

It's a double standard you are playing there & one that reeks of misogyny. Historically, the correct answer would be that there is just as much evidence that they did as that they did not. More so in the case of France.

However, you are erring on the side that a lack of evidence equals no evidence, despite the stories that they did. That is like saying that, because there is a lack of evidence of God, all of the locations in the Bible & the circumstances depicted were also not real, when we know for fact that historians & archaeologists use it to find entire cities.

So you are right, some people do not believe the Boudica & Joan of Arc fought in battle. But many others accept the stories that they did. In most cases your are citing minority views. Unless you work for Fox news, "some people say" isn't a valid source.

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It's a double standard you are playing there & one that reeks of misogyny. Historically, the correct answer would be that there is just as much evidence that they did as that they did not. More so in the case of France.


Historically, the right method is to look at the evidence and then draw conclusions. Not start with "I want to find evidence of medieval women fighting as knights on the battlefield, let's try and see what we can find that fits."
If you apply sound method, i.e look at the evidence without passion, without agenda, just looking at the facts, the way you would for any matter, be it about women or any other, then, no, there isn't "as much evidence that they did as that they did not". What evidence could you be thinking of, I wonder? and why especially in France?

"Occasionally I'm callous and strange."

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I don't think Syntinen is a misogynist. She just doesn't want to accept stories and legends for which there are no evidence and which contradict known historical, cultural customs.

There are many written records of medieval times and she thinks that if any of these stories were true, there would be an eyewitness account somewhere.

I don't think that makes her a misogynist. She just doesn't believe what seem to be fairy tales.

She's using logic. I find her arguments convincing on this subject. Her tone sometimes offends me, but her arguments usually are sound, in my opinion.

The prevailing customs of the time, plus the biological differences between most men and women, make it extremely unlikely that a woman could have been effective on the battlefield in hand-to-hand combat. More importantly, they did not receive the training necessary to not get slaughtered if they were in a battle.

I am female but also I'm realistic. Certainly there are some women who are big and strong. If they were trained properly, they could compete with men. But what woman in the middle ages trained for the years and years it was necessary to be a warrior? It was so contrary to the mores of the time as to be nearly unthinkable.

This is why, I think, she requires proof of such events before she will believe them.

Perhaps you missed her post regarding women warriors in Japan.

I don't agree with her all the time, but to say she's misogynistic is simply not reasonable.


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I'm afraid abrasiveness has always been my middle name (partly due to growing up in a terrifyingly plain-spoken Quaker family); I work hard on it but I often lapse. If I've ever abraded you, deC, I'm very sorry for it because I do respect your judgement and good manners.

I'm actually not so convinced myself that the physical differences between men and women were crucial - even less so since the discovery of Richard III's skeleton in Leicester. Have you been following the reports on that? The osteologists report that Richard's long bones are so slender that at first sight they wondered if they were dealing with a female skeleton, and that his spine was so painfully curved that it would have reduced his height by several inches to significantly below average - he would have been 5' 8' if his spine had been straight - and severely compromised his heart and lung function. If a 'slight as a girl' young man stunted by scoliosis and with under-performing heart and lungs could become not merely a competent general but a battlefield fighter to be reckoned with (which even the most hostile contemporary witnesses agree that he was), then a strapping healthy young woman in regular training should certainly have been equal to the physical demands of knightly warfare.

It's the 'regular training' issue, to my mind, that is key. Even a good rider could not just put on full armour, grab a lance and go do what a knight did; if that had been so, males of the knightly caste wouldn't have trained as rigorously from boyhood as we know they did. And a person could only get that training, which was expensive and couldn't possibly have been undertaken covertly, if their parents/guardians had wanted them to have it; which in turn meant that - except in very exceptional circumstances - it would have had to be seen as socially acceptable and appropriate.

An example of 'very exceptional circumstances' is the 13th-century Roman de Silence, in which the heroine is a count's daughter who has been passed off as a boy from birth by her parents, so that she can inherit their fief. Naturally, as a young nobleman she is trained in warfare, and as an adult performs a series of knightly exploits before her sex is revealed. This is the only example I know of in medieval literature of a 'female knight', and demonstrates that, at least in their fantasy fiction, medieval people could accept that a woman was physically capable of fighting as a knight provided she had the training and status of a man. In other words, this story is our old friend, the exception that proves the rule.

For me the clincher about 'no female knights' is Christine de Pisan's Book of the City of Ladies. Christine trawled classical literature, Christian legends and medieval history for examples of female strength, courage and virtue. She wrote enthusiastically about the Amazons, who she naturally imagined as having the stratified social structure and military tactics of her own time (nobles fighting as knights, commoners on foot as archers). But although she cited many medieval ladies for their feats of intelligence, courage, effective rule and so on, she doesn't name a single medieval female fighter. And if Christine, one of the best-informed woman of her age, had never heard tell of any fighting medieval ladies, you pretty much have to conclude that either she really didn't know any to tell about, or that in medieval society (i.e. not safely quarantined in classical history) their activities had been seen as so shocking and unnatural that she knew it wouldn't advance her case to mention them.

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It's the 'regular training' issue, to my mind, that is key.
Agreed: that's why the "not properly trained peasant boy as knight" fairytale trope (also a Ridley Scott favourite!) doesn't stand up, either.
at least in their fantasy fiction, medieval people could accept that a woman was physically capable of fighting as a knight provided she had the training and status of a man. In other words, this story is our old friend, the exception that proves the rule.
Yes: in modern fiction, Brienne of Tarth would be roughly equivalent. She's unusually strong and she's properly trained.

Re: Richard, further examination has shown he wouldn't have lost a great deal in height: he'd perhaps be 5'5"-ish. (His spine has been put back together in a 3D model that you can see in Leicester and was in The Lancet). But his limbs are alarmingly delicate-looking (having seen the replica of the skeleton). The lung function issue was perhaps the problem when he became unhorsed: he would get out of breath a lot quicker than most people.

"Active but Odd"

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On Richard III's scoliosis, training and combat, I assume you've probably already seen this but for anyone who hasn't here's the link to the recent(ish) Channel 4 documentary featuring Dominic Smee http://www.channel4.com/programmes/richard-iii-the-new-evidence

Taking painting to the pictures ...
www.thepicturepalace.co.uk

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Yes. Bob Savage, who appears in it, is an old friend of mine: I used to be a student volunteer cataloguing assistant for him when he was Arms & Armour curator here in Glasgow.

A key issue in it is the kind of armour worn. Richard was lucky enough to live in the era of full plate, which gave him a lot of support around the torso. He (and any other weaker-bodied person) might not have been able to manage so well in the pre-plate era (mail-based armour), which is what we'd be looking at in the era in which the Hood film is set.

"Active but Odd"

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Interesting point on the plate armour, I'm wondering whether being tightly laced into a close fitted gambeson and similarly (albeit expensively) fitted mail cinched with a wide belt would have a similar (if somewhat lesser) supportive effect. Mail always seems to be represented as loose fitting on film whereas manuscript illustrations and tomb effigies tend to contradict that.

Taking painting to the pictures ...
www.thepicturepalace.co.uk

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Yes, that's absolutely required viewing: let's hope C4 don't take it off their site any time soon. It's so rare to see a 'historical experiment' programme that really is an experiment, and where you can see world experts (and Toby Capwell and his armourer must know as much about plate armour and how it worked in practice as anyone in the world) really learning something they didn't expect. Great also to see Dominic Smee blossoming as a result of the process!

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There is a DVD out of it in the US and Canada, so it can be ordered online if you can play Region 1.

"Active but Odd"

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I will yield to my defensive impulses and point out that in my post, I also cited that lack of training was the key obstacle to women becoming warriors.

Syntinen, you're one of the most interesting posters on IMDB and I've enjoyed discussing ideas with you.

I am now going to look into the average height of human beings through the last 1000 years.

I've never had a doubt that some humans are exceptionally athletic, coordinated and courageous, and therefore, if trained properly, can excel against larger and stronger opponents. Regardless of gender.

I would hazard, though, that cases where a significantly smaller and less strong person defeats larger and stronger people are unusual. (Depending on how you define unusual.) It would be interesting to see case studies in disciplines such as martial arts or boxing, or other historical records of combat.





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I also wonder if anyone's seen the documentary, Reclaiming the Blade?. It's a history of sword fights in movies, at first. Then it turns into a look at modern-day groups and craftsmen who attempt to re-create European Martial Arts. It was fascinating.

Plus there are lots of interviews with Viggo Mortensen, if that floats your boat.

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I didn't mean to suggest that you hadn't cited the lack-of-training aspect; only that the study of Richard's bones has been a revelation in terms of how far a lack of height and physical strength could be compensated for in medieval knightly combat by dedicated training, determination and (possibly) natural talent.

Way further up this thread I also mentioned that Japanese and Mongolian fighting techniques, relying as they did on balance, speed and skill rather than reach of arm, muscle-power or the sheer weight of impact of fighters on heavy horses, may have put slighter, shorter fighters at much less of a disadvantage. And I think it's not frivolous to suggest that the sheer elegance of Japanese martial arts made it more acceptable to feudal Japanese society for ladies to learn them. I once saw footage of an 80-something-year-old samurai lady teaching the naginata to a class of teenage girls; as she went through the moves she was as dignified and elegant as Queen Mary taking afternoon tea, and the deportment of the young ladies as they attacked, defended and disarmed each other was impeccable. No crude sweaty whacking away for the Edo-period demoiselle!

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No, you didn't mean to suggest that. Sometimes I'm a bit insecure.

I haven't been following the study of Richard's corpse. Bones. It's fascinating.

Another variable in a fighter's effectiveness might be his or her determination. Feistiness. Fury.

Richard is such a fascinating character. I've read two, maybe three novels about him; so interesting the different takes authors have. Of course, Sharon Kay Penman wrote the most famous one. I hope the facts, which we'll never fully know, back up her depiction.

On the other hand, her book is almost a panegyric.

When he was dug up, my local NPR station had a show with the two lead researchers in England.

I'd suggested a show about rehabilitating the reputation of Richard III. Then when the grave was found, they did the show. It was great.

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An interesting sidelight on just this question: it has just been announced that the regular jousting contests staged at English Heritage properties this summer will for the first time include two female contestants. The head of events at EH says that, although there have been women jousting for the last few years, it's only now that there are some who have made it into the top class.
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/about-us/search-news/female-jousters-summer-events

I don't know how long the Dutch woman has been jousting; but Nicky Willis, who has been working with horses for 30 years, and started jousting in 2008, has apparently only now made it into the top class. https://blog.royalarmouries.org/2015/03/13/meet-the-jouster-nicky-willis/ In other words, women can do it, but it takes years of training for anyone to become seriously good at it.

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Many cultures did have female warriors, but England was never one of them, although neighboring Celts and Nords did. In all cases they were rare.

But the fact the only woman in the film doing battle sticks out as a bigger inaccuracy to you than any of the other crap in this film is telling, most telling.

Why do you not have a problem with the size of the armies? No battle fought in Europe between 500-1300 CE was ever recorded as having more than fifty combatants total. All battles were small-scale, sieges were a rarity, castles were not fortified monstrosities but closer to the tiny gift shops they are today. They couldn't even house a thousand male-or-female soldiers.

What about inserting Robin Hood into the origins of the Magna Carta?

What about historicizing "Robin Hood" at all?

But nevermind that, the woman is doing something constructive, oh noes.

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No battle fought in Europe between 500-1300 CE was ever recorded as having more than fifty combatants total.
erm... 'citation needed'.

Taking painting to the pictures ...
www.thepicturepalace.co.uk

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No battle fought in Europe between 500-1300 CE was ever recorded as having more than fifty combatants total.

When Harald Hardrada invaded England in 1066,his invasion fleet consisted of 300 longships (and unlike William of Normandy in the same year, he wasn't transporting cavalry). That means that according to you, each of the fighting men in his army would have had 6 ships each. To carry his luggage, do you suppose?

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[deleted]