Of the current characters I'd have to give it to Dany but in terms of past seasons I thought Tywin was a good leader as well.
shareRobb and Stannis.
I'm entirely sure that you're entirely sure what I'm implying.
In the past, obviously it was Lysa Arryn. She was able to keep her kingdom safe while the world around her burned. She didn't allow herself to be drawn into a horrid war over personal stakes. Although I personally dislike LF and think he's overrated as a schemer, he is certainly an intelligent and capable person. And the only person to see it initially was Lysa Arryn, who not only loved him for it but also gave him his first access to power via her husband. Although she came off unhinged she was also 100% correct in her assessment of LF's interest in Sansa. Was trying to kill Sansa wrong? Yeah, but leaders have to make executive decisions to protect what's their and she was not at all wrong about the threat there. Frankly, she was right to try to kill Sansa.
Currently? N/A Both Jon and Dany have consistently failed as leaders. Cersei is amazing but nuts.
ETA: Maybe Yara?
Wanting to be book is not book.
In the past, obviously it was Lysa Arryn. She was able to keep her kingdom safe while the world around her burned. She didn't allow herself to be drawn into a horrid war over personal stakes. Although I personally dislike LF and think he's overrated as a schemer, he is certainly an intelligent and capable person. And the only person to see it initially was Lysa Arryn, who not only loved him for it but also gave him his first access to power via her husband. Although she came off unhinged she was also 100% correct in her assessment of LF's interest in Sansa. Was trying to kill Sansa wrong? Yeah, but leaders have to make executive decisions to protect what's their and she was not at all wrong about the threat there.You're probably the only person in the world who could make a somewhat sound argument for Lysa being a "great leader."
Join #teamLysa
Wanting to be book is not book.
She was able to keep her kingdom safe while the world around her burned. She didn't allow herself to be drawn into a horrid war over personal stakes.
We agree on so much. If only you'd see the light on one issue...
Wanting to be book is not book.
She was able to keep her kingdom safe while the world around her burned.This is not how you judge a leader. Lysa can be called a wise decider, not a leader.
lead·er
ˈlēdər/
noun
noun: leader; plural noun: leaders
1.
the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country.
A good leader is someone who gets people to follow, now matter how nonsensical the path or bad the outcome. The worst criminals and destroyers in history were excellent leaders who got masses to follow them.This is a highly subjective ruling of what does or does not make for a good leader. It also ignores that when one asks about leader ability, they seek to know about the leader's success. Dany, for example, while she has many followers, has a high rate of failure when it comes to leading, having been gullible and betrayed by Mirri Maz Durr, leading many of her followers to death in the Red Waste, or failing to stop the Son of the Harpy from wreaking havoc in Meereen.
This is a highly subjective ruling of what does or does not make for a good leader. It also ignores that when one asks about leader ability, they seek to know about the leader's success.There is nothing subjective in sticking to the meaning of the word. The ability to lead is a precondition to people following, which in turn is often an ingredient of success, but leading in the wrong direction is equally proving ability to lead.
I'm amazed you're not campaigning Cersei for once.Cersei has many wonderful qualities but leading is not one of them 😔
There is nothing subjective in sticking to the meaning of the word. The ability to lead is a precondition to people following, which in turn is often an ingredient of success, but leading in the wrong direction is equally proving ability to lead.This is true, but the question is who has the best leadership ability, not who is a "good" (highly subjective term) leader. Your definition of a good leader is correct, but leadership ability encompasses far more than simply being able to secure loyal followers.
To lead is to effectively set a direction and nothing else.You also must have at least one person follow that direction, but this is true. To lead successfully is more demanding. You can lead a person over a cliff to your d deaths, but it wouldn't have led to success for you or those who followed you. Simply death. You were a good leader, but you were not a successful one and lack leadership abilities.
Daenerys is often making a mess, she is probably a bad ruler and maybe a bad decision maker but her leading is exceptional. Even Tyrion now believes in her and he wasn’t even drunk.Dany has suffered multiple treasons from Jorah, Doreah, and Mirri Maz Durr. In addition, the citizens of her own cities riot against her for much of Seasons 5 and 6. She suffers direct insubordination on a repeated basis. Dany cannot and should not count on loyalty from all her followers as many do not believe in or back her. Therefore, she cannot be called a good leader.
Regarding Lysa, one could say that keeping the status quo requires less leading qualities. Leading implies motion. All she did was wait and we never even heard of contestation around her. She could have been a plant and still be called “a good leader” as a result.Lysa did take motion. She killed Jon Arryn and framed the Lannisters, leading the Starks to investigate no questions asked. She led the Vale in mounting their defenses and securing their borders, allowing them to stay peaceful. She ensured economic, cultural, political, and militaristic stability, leading the Vale to remain at peace long after her death. She is less flashy than Dany, but she does lead.
Cersei has many wonderful qualities but leading is not one of them 😔She arguably has the two most loyal followers. share
You also must have at least one person follow that directionThat's what the word "effective" means and I did not say "propose" or indicate" but "effectively set a direction", which implies sufficient following to make an effect. Must I explain my other sentences?
To lead successfully is more demanding.To lead to success is more demanding. To lead successfully is just fine when the direction is followed, be it over the cliff or elsewhere. Is English that difficult? I cannot tell, I'm not a native speaker.
Dany has suffered multiple treasons from Jorah, Doreah, and Mirri Maz Durr.Successful leadership (that's when people follow you) always causes resistance, you cannot judge a leader by its abscence. Whatever you do, you'll do it against those who want it done the opposite way, those who want to do it in your place and the large majority of those who want nothing done at all.
In the past, obviously it was Lysa Arryn. She was able to keep her kingdom safe while the world around her burned. She didn't allow herself to be drawn into a horrid war over personal stakes. Although I personally dislike LF and think he's overrated as a schemer, he is certainly an intelligent and capable person. And the only person to see it initially was Lysa Arryn, who not only loved him for it but also gave him his first access to power via her husband. Although she came off unhinged she was also 100% correct in her assessment of LF's interest in Sansa. Was trying to kill Sansa wrong? Yeah, but leaders have to make executive decisions to protect what's their and she was not at all wrong about the threat there. Frankly, she was right to try to kill Sansa.You have GOT to be a lawyer. I never knew this was possible share
Cersei. Dany seems to inspire devotion in a carnal or objectual way, much like the Spanish ships of the 16th century impressed some indigenous tribes; whereas Cersei is the muse of the most brilliant and rational mind in Westeros.
*****
Confess.
Cersei is the muse of the most brilliant and rational mind in Westeros.I am so flattered 😳
I'm surprised to see you name Cersei. IMO, Cersei has no leadership ability at all. Every decision she has ever made rebounds on her. She thinks she has control (over Joffrey, over the High Sparrow, over Margaery, over Tommen) and it all ends in disaster.
She's hated by the common people, despised by many of the noble houses, and her only support is Jaime and Qyburn.
I don't see her lasting long.
Dany. People worship her, they think she may be the destiny's chosen one, part of something greater than herself. People want to be part of that. She inspires devotion.
shareAnd when shes not there to personally rule everything falls apart. Good leaders don't rely on charisma. Things remain stable because he or she ruled well.
For example, upon Lysa's death, the Vale remained stable. Because she chose someone genuinely capable to guide her son. And her years of peace meant the resources of the area weren't taxed.
She didn't have to set herself on fire. She used her brain not asbestos skin.
Wanting to be book is not book.
Daenerys, she went from timid girl, sold into an arranged marriage, to a loved and respected Khaleesi. She ended slavery in the Bay of Dragons, albeit not without hickups.
She learned to rely on her advisers and is surrounded by the best of them.
She was able to create allied forces with a huge army and unlike other kings does not risk her plans for an admittedly nice POA.
She has a powerful religion on her side, with magic powers.
Unlike other queens she doesn't only sit around slurping wine while scheming; she actually can kill with her own hands and is an accomplished pilot.
________
"Art is magic delivered from the lie of being truth"
Dany and Jon.
shareHow is Jon a good leader? He tried to change thousands of years of policy of the NW and thought he could just force it down people's throats. He didn't add protection to himself or for the Wildlings. He completely misread his men. He abandoned well thought out plans to charge thousands of men to their deaths because avenging one life was more valuable than thousands. He sister had to beg him to fight for his home. He never takes any initiative to seize power even though he obviously wants it very badly (as shown by the fact that he always jumps at the chance when offered) so other people have to always do it for him.
-Doesn't consider the consequences of his actions
-Doesn't properly read the mood of his men
-Doesn't take initiative
-Doesn't care about fighting for his home
-Doesn't win battles
Be objective.
Wanting to be book is not book.
Jon story parallels Dany's. They both went from nothing to being the biggest rising leaders. Dany in Essos and Jon in the North. The whole Sansa and Lyanna Mormont bossing Jon around was just a cheap fan pleasing. I don't buy the whole Lyanna speech, it should have been Jon's moment. Of course both Dany and Jon make mistakes and they learn from it.
shareI don't buy the whole Lyanna speech, it should have been Jon's moment.The show makes a point of turning Jon into an unwilling leader. He is the opposite to Daenerys in that respect and it is a cheap trick to give heroes to different parts of the audience.
The show makes a point of turning Jon into an unwilling leader. He is the opposite to Daenerys in that respect and it is a cheap trick to give heroes to different parts of the audience.
Jon the bastard, who suffered from it all his life but will not accept a rise in status unless forced to is the hero of the common man who wants to stay common but be called something else because it hurts.
Hey, Craze_boi, I don't know if you were planning on giving out prizes or whatever for answers in this thread. But I want to point out that I'm the ONLY one to give an OBJECTIVE answer. Not only did I not just choose one of my favs I chose someone who tried to murder my fav. And I deserve first place.
Thank you for your consideration.
Wanting to be book is not book.