Why is che so idolised?


Ok admitedly i know little to nothing about the cuban revolution, but have aways wondered why someone considered a communist is so revered by people all over the world.

I have just watched che part one, and will be watching part 2 soon but so far i am no more enlightened as to why he is idolised. I know from reading these boards opinion of him and the things he done in his life seem to have vast contrasts depending on which side of the fence you stand. So can anyone hep me understand it? Look forward to getting a better insight as I do find it fascinating.

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the things he done in his life seem to have vast contrasts depending on which side of the fence you stand. So can anyone hep me understand it


I dont think you can, hope I am wrong, becoz indeed, it is exactly that way: it depends on which side of the fence are you from. Well, I dont know form which side of the fence are you. But well.

I am not AT ALL a communist supporter! not at all, but I can admire Che for his concerns about the people no body else care about.
He also had some very realistic points of views.

Especially in the movie "Diarios en Motocicleta" you can understand that better.

First world´s people do not relate to Che.
I think Che is basically Latin American.

Do you recognize my voice...?

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The reason he is idolized is the same reason anybody is idolized. He was a common man that rose and did something most people believe is unattainable. I respect a man that can rise up and get what he wants. That has nothing to do with politics. So people get bamboozled. People start believing that these people that actually do rise up are better than them. It turns out most people that do idolize Che, or anybody else for that matter, don't really understand what he stood for. And for Che people idolize him because he looks like a "rebel of the system" or a "fighter against the man". But in actuality he was just the man. He just looked like he wasn't.

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Exactly. Right or wrong, whether you're for or against his cause, you have to respect a man that will do anything for what he believes in.

He fought and died for his beliefs, something that most people are too afraid to do.

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Hitler fought and died for his beliefs...so you can't have anything against him, right?

I'm the guy who does his job, you must be the other guy.

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"Hitler fought and died for his beliefs...so you can't have anything against him, right?"

Che fought and died for his beliefs AND his beliefs were to help and release poor people from the oppression all over the world.

Hitler fought and died for his beliefs BUT his beliefs were to conquer the world and kill every human being different from his own race.

Capice?

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Well that last guy failed to leave that qualifier in his statement, so I pounced on it.

Che was only a hitman for Castro, he wasn't a visionary leader. Dumb kids wear Che t-shirts because they think he was "fighting the man" when in reality, he just became the man when the govt. took control of everything. "Power to the people" my ass! You guys are so ignortant.

I'm the guy who does his job, you must be the other guy.

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ldyrdal you the ignorant here, because if you know something, you would know that Che Guevara was a great influence for Castro, and the cuban revolution wouldn't be the same without Che.

But that's not why he is an idol, he is an idol because he died for his beliefs, wrong or right, he gave his life for it, how many people have the courage to do that?

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So Che was a great influence on the "revolutionary" who took over complete control of an entire country, thus destroying democracy. How am I the ignorant one here?

I'm the guy who does his job, you must be the other guy.

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[deleted]

Idyral you should know one thing and that is that not everyone wants the same kind of government as you have, there's actually lots of people that don't want a democracy as it doesn't match their culture, you might find that hard to believe but it's so. If you're american though you don't live in a democracy yourself as it's just a big corporation really when it boils down to it so then I stand corrected on the whole "same kind of government as you have".

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How am I the ignorant one here?

You aren't. It seems whenever there's a radical communist marxist to be praised, they come out of the woodwork. Nevermind the fact he was a henchman for a brutal oppressive ogre.

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You're the ignorant one, Idyrdal, because you've been brainwashed into thinking that democracy is the best form of government for everyone. Consumer Capitalism is unsustainable. Grow up.

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You think it's great to have the same president for 40 years?

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how can anyone answer that vague question? but yes it could be great.

~RANKING 2013 FILMS~
imdb.com/list/DRU4W-0uneM
Last seen: The Call (7/10)

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[deleted]

«thus destroying democracy»

FYI, Cuba was not a democracy when Castro overthrew Fulgencio Batista. He was a dictator who got to the government through a coup in 1952. He was a puppet of the American mafia who had huge investments in the country.

For the record, I'm not Cuban, I don't live in the USA and I'm not leftist. Just happen to know some history.

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by jorgemtrevino>>>For the record, I'm not Cuban, I don't live in the USA and I'm not leftist. Just happen to know some history.<<<

Which is the reason why you are not the person anyone should be be lisening to when it comes to Cuba. No Offense, I'm sure your a good guy, but what you have is opinion not fact and I would rather listen to someone that live it, then someone that read it or was told about it from someone else.

Here are some real world facts:

Yes Batista was a dictator and did take the presidency by force in a coup when Prio was Presient, but it was still a democracy while he was presdent.

1. You were free to go on vacation with your family anywhere outside the country with Batista, with Castro/Che's cuba, nobody leaves the country on a whim, and if allowed, you can't take your whole family.

2. You were free to start any type of business you wanted to earn money, and make a liviing for yourself w/ Batista, in Castro/Che's Cuba, the Government will tell you what your job options are and what you will earn.

3. In Batista's Cuba you could go anywhere and to any beach you desired including Varadero beach considered one of the top beaches in the world, in Castro/Che's Cuba, no cuban (other then Castro and his minions) are allowed in Varadero beach or quite a few other places in Cuba that are considered just for tourists.

4. With Batista, you could still talk politics, and state your objections with others on govenment, you did still risk a 50/50 chance that if any of Batista people heard, you might have retaliation, in Castro/Che's Cuba there is no talking cuban politics, if you do there is a huge chance they will find out from one of the many spies roaming the streets, and when they did, here is a 100% retaliation (jail, beatings, disappearance)

5. When Batista took control, there was little retaliation to the people loyal to Prio, when Castro took over, Castro's Henchmen Che' became judge, jury, and executioner. The would take preisoners during the night, and by morning they were executed. When women started to cr that many that were being executed were inocent, the amazingly good hearted Che' was heard to say, "The executions will continue."

Batista was an ironhanded dictator that if you got out of line, his men would make you pay, but compared to Fidel and Che', he was a hell of a great guy.

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For your and everybody else's info as your info is wrong, there is absolutely nothing to stop Cubans using Varadero beach, nothing at all. They may be restricted, and that also goes for anybody that doesn't stay in one of the private beachside hotels, including you and me. They are not allowed onto the causeways leading to Cayo Coco or Cayo Santa Maria unless they actualy work in one of the hotels, but Varadero, no. Get your info right first before spouting things that are wrong. Just for the record, I've just spent 6 weeks in Cuba including 6 days in Varadero as of Feb/March 2015 and I can assure you there are plenty of Cubans on Varadero beach.

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Nothing to stop them except for armed guards. Lying moron.

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Cuba is a democracy, hell it is more of a democracy than America.

Maybe you should try and use the internet for some more than watching shemale porn.

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You think todays Cuba is more of a democracy than America, yet you still live in America...hmm

Maybe it's because in the U.S you can bad mouth anyone in high Office..try that in today's Cuba.

Maybe it's because in the U.S you can grow up poor, study hard, and become a doctor, or lawyer helping your family out to eventually have a better life, while in Cuba everyone is poor, and will always be poor no matter what they study...exept of course Castro and his Minions who live like Kings.

Maybe while living in the U.S , if you decide to traval with your family to another oountry, you can book it at your slightest quickest whim, while in Cuba if you decide to go to another country, you have to wait before they allow you to leave the country, and you may not take your whole family.

Maybe because in the U.S you can work hard and own whatever you so wish to buy and own, while in Cuba you own nothing, and will be told what you can and can't buy.

I guess ignorance is bliss.

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WHAT'S WRONG WITH SHEMALE PORN?!

+++ Jason

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Cuba is a totalitarian dictatorship which holds no elections, *beep*

Maybe you shpuld ise the Internet for something other than jerking off to old gulag photos, loser.

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you mean batista was running a democracy? :) you believe that the united states is a democracy?

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You must be one of those Cuban exile bitch! So what sort of people were in power in Cuba before hand? He is obviously not a mechanical hitman but a man with principals and ideals.

Neo-liberal piece of *beep*

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"...Dumb kids wear Che t-shirts because they think he was "fighting the man" when in reality, he just became the man when the govt. took control of everything. "Power to the people" my ass!..."

When revolutionists "liberated"/liberated Cuba, Che rejected any luxury... He even refused eating better food than ordinary Cubans / plane people do ...

p.s World is not black/white, good/bad... You cant generalize world...

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"When revolutionists "liberated"/liberated Cuba, Che rejected any luxury... He even refused eating better food than "

That's a complete *beep* lie. Upon violently seizing power, one of the first acts of Castro's inner circle were to steal ma sions for themselves, that hypocritical pug Guevara included.

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What he believed in was a vicious hate-fuelled ideology which had already murdered about ten times as many people as Hitler at the time he was fighting for it.

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Actually Hitler did fight and die for his beliefs. He was fighting for the "good and wellness" of Germany after Versailles. He also blamed the jews for what happened in WWI.

Che was also trying to conquer hence him going to Bolivia after Cuba to spread Marxism. He also killed anybody that go in his way or was a deterrent to the "revolution!"

It's the freakin t-shirts that everybody loves. The man was a killer but he's become the Mickey Mouse for wannabe revolutionist.

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Che released people from the oppression of others and then quickly began oppressing them himself. His own son (or grandson, can't remember) had to flee the country so he could play rock n' roll music which Cuba typically doesn't allow because it's American. Guess who started that trend: Revolutionary legend and leader of the oppressed proletariat Che Guevara.

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«Hitler fought and died for his beliefs BUT his beliefs were to conquer the world and kill every human being different from his own race.»

Actually, that's far from the truth. Read some good history book on Hitler (like Ian Kershaw). I don't like Hitler or the Nazis but the main cause of the war was that Hitler wanted back the territories taken away from Germany by the French & British and given to the Checoslovakia & Poland. He was also -and rightfully-afraid of Stalin and the communists.

BTW, the reason socialism was -and still- so popular in Latin America and the rest of the 3d world is the very USA. The US govmnt used to keep Gorilla dictators in most banana republics to favor American businesses. When "democracy" and American style "economic freedom" came it just made the rich richer. The poor may be undernourished but not completely stupid. Thus, you get Chavez, Ortega and the rest of "red" (Castro cheerleaders) governments.

OH, and about (Hitler) racism, I think the Germans are way behind the British and the Angloamericans.

I rest my case.

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Che fought and died for his beliefs AND his beliefs were to help and release poor people from the oppression all over the world.


Horse crap. Che was self-aggrandizing pond scum who did everything for himself and has been idolized by fools who swallowed that crap line about him caring for others, and his "legend" has spread thanks to people like you quoting that garbage as though you'd really looked into it yourself.

Yeah, Lenin cared for other people, too -- so did Stalin and Trotsky.

They all cared for themselves vastly more than anyone else.

Start with this:

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/humberto-fontova/britain-bans-pamela-geller-and-robert-spencer-welcomes-che-guevaras-daughter/

Money quote:
“When you saw the beaming look on Che’s face as the victims were tied to the stake and blasted apart by his firing squads,” said former Cuban political prisoner Roberto Martin-Perez, to this writer, “you saw there was something seriously, seriously wrong with Che Guevara.”


Then this, about the film itself:

http://pjmedia.com/blog/will-the-real-che-guevara-please-stand-up/?singlepage=true

Not saying believe it... but listen and start looking for things that speak against Guevara -- they're out there. Then form your own opinion.

I contend that the picture that arises of the man defiles the term "pond scum".

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"Hitler fought and died for his beliefs...so you can't have anything against him, right?"

Che fought and died for his beliefs AND his beliefs were to help and release poor people from the oppression all over the world.

Hitler fought and died for his beliefs BUT his beliefs were to conquer the world and kill every human being different from his own race.

Capice?

Not really, Che brought on decades of oppression to the Cuban people with his actions by all measures they were better off before much like the other sad Latin leader Hugo Chavez. Both these Latin Dictators killed many that did not beileve like them. Both wanted their beliefs to take over the world. They were just pathetic at it and could barely force their own countries to heel to their demands. Glad they did not have Hitlers resources.

I will never understand socialist/communists. If you have good intentions, like Mao, you get a pass even if you kill 100 million people, way more than Hitler.

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hitler had others fight for his beliefs.

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He is dead and that is all that matters. Rot in Hell Che

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[deleted]

like hitler? no you dont have to.

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"It turns out most people that do idolize Che, or anybody else for that matter, don't really understand what he stood for."

What a stupid statement. You are a [email protected] dumb enough to think you're intelligent.

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No Id say that's actually quite accurate. Look at all the rock musicians who use his image despite the fact he wanted to ban rock music.

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He was a common man that rose and did something most people believe is unattainable.


Except that he was not a common man, by any definition. He saw himself fighting for the good of poor and common people, but he himself did not come from a poor or common background, he did not have a common education, and he did not have common ability.

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He also didn't do anything for the common man...

The common man in Cuba is so desperate to get out of Cuba that a lot of them were willing to try to cross 90 miles of shark-infested Atlantic ocean waters in dighys, inner tubes, and other makeshift unRIVERworthy craft -- WITH THEIR FAMILIES -- just to escape the "wonderful paradise" he worked so hard to create for "the common man".

Ungrateful bastards, the lot of them... you know?

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yep

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he's idolised by stoned college kids who want suck up to their leftist profesros

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Why are there so MANY CHE-HATERS ???


Good Question,

The answer is that there are a plethora of reactionary middle class capitalist-loving douchebags, who were born on 3rd base and think they hit a triple --- who like to talk internet smack in Mom’s basement about a revolutionary who's been dead for 40 + years. How post-modern.

These clowns wouldn't know the poverty that Che experienced during his travels through South America if it kicked them in their capri pants. Che was radicalized by seeing US Imperialism up close in Guatemala - you know when Uncle Sam & United Fruit decided to incinerate a few thousand brown people so American's could save 20 cents on their bananas.

Do any of the Che-haters know anything about the U.S.-backed dictatorship of Batista and the Mafia which propped him up? The oligarchs who alongside the mafia turned Cuba into a Yanqui whorehouse, while killing 20,000 Cubans? Che believed in cold justice - because he saw injustice up close.

Meanwhile, the hardest challenge for the anti-Che vapid turds in the next 6 months will probably be the life or death decision of doritos or cheetos while playing their Xbox.

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Do any of the Che-haters know anything about the U.S.-backed dictatorship of Batista and the Mafia which propped him up? The oligarchs who alongside the mafia turned Cuba into a Yanqui whorehouse, while killing 20,000 Cubans? Che believed in cold justice - because he saw injustice up close.


The injustices under Batista are no worse than the injustices committed by Che in regards to the dissidents and the homosexuals that he rounded up. So give me a break on the pie in the sky worship of a man who loved the poor and was heroic but who had many flaws and who committed many horrible injustices himself. Lets judge things based on reality.





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Luvbulmers01,

contrary to what you may have read here, the &quot;gusanos&quot; (as Fidel called exiled Cubans) who don't like Castro not necessarily love Batista either. It isn't so cut-and-dry.

My parents were born in Cuba. My mother was a &quot;Castrista&quot;, a supporter of Fidel early on. She said she has seen him once in a barbershop and admitted that he's a handsome man. Her brothers both fought for Castro; Fidel used my uncle's sidearm during a demonstration and talked with him. However, Fidel didn't disclose he was a Communist until afterwards. Property was seized. My father, who didn't know my mother then, lost his job at the University of Havana because he wasn't a socialist and also lost property. He didn't like what he was seeing. My father escaped with his first wife in a daring escape that made headlines in Ireland.. However, the changes the Communists brought to Cuba weren't all good.

Che was a supporter of Fidel's regime, Luvbulmers01, and so disgruntled exiled Cubans associate him with the suffering they experienced; at least that's the case when I think of him.

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Because people often don't know the whole story, they tend to follow popular public opinion without doing any real investigation themselves. Che is idolised by angry teenagers, stoners, hippies, middle age burn out's and attention seeking uni students because of the mistaken belief that he was anti USA, anti capitalism and was a rebellious figure who "wanted to save the world."

In truth Che's main priority was helping to spread communism throughout the world whether the people in those nations wanted it or not. The revolutions he fought in/supported were to support his own agenda to replace existing governments with communist ones. His humanitarian efforts/speeches were little more than ploys to denounce the west to further his own cause. He was a talented propagandist amongst other things.

It's the same reason people idolise John Lennon, Einstein and Ghandi amongst others. The negative is ignored in favour for the media friendly positive that fits with what society and popular culture wants people to believe about certain figures.

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First of all, I don't think anyone's going to argue with you that Batista was *beep* and that the US does have a checkered past when it comes to involvement in third world problems. The problem is that Che is a false martyr and everyone sees him as a flawless saint. I personally think that, like most other people his situation, he was handed power without really earning it and all his idealism quickly turned into this crazy bloodlust where he wanted nothing but to kill anyone who didn't agree with him. I guarantee you give anybody what he was given and they'd do the exact same thing. Studies have been done on this before.
Secondly, yes, I have read Fontova and he is just out to make Che look like the devil himself. To a lot of people affected by what he did (even indirectly, as in Fontova's case) he probably seems like the Devil himself. I'm not about to argue with people who've actually experienced what goes on there. Let me just say that even Hitler started out with good intentions (yes, make fun of me, I'm still going to use him as an example)

One other thing: To constantly bash the US as 'imperialist' makes you look like a fool. All that is is leftist propaganda meant to inflame and insult. Cuba, as a communist nation, exists because of Soviet imperialism. Now, the people in places like Cuba and North Korea have it worse than ever thanks to the collapse. Cuba's having to give up doctors for oil and North Korea may as well be a hole in the ground with what we've heard goes on there. Look at South Korea, with the USs help they've got one of the best economies in East Asia.

I know the US doesn't have a perfect record, but ours is a hell of a lot better than most other's.

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Wow human18, wow to make a bunch of false equivalencies.

"To constantly bash the US as 'imperialist' makes you look like a fool. All that is is leftist propaganda meant to inflame and insult. Cuba, as a communist nation, exists because of Soviet imperialism. Now, the people in places like Cuba and North Korea have it worse than ever thanks to the collapse. Cuba's having to give up doctors for oil and North Korea may as well be a hole in the ground with what we've heard goes on there. Look at South Korea, with the USs help they've got one of the best economies in East Asia.

I know the US doesn't have a perfect record, but ours is a hell of a lot better than most other's."

It's not "bashing" to describe the United States as imperialist- it's merely being accurate. Only we don't do so directly for our nation's benefit so much as we do for private corporations. From the Philippines to Iraq, we have done that. To argue otherwise is to LIE.

Also, it doesn't go THIS way: North Korea is terrible so the US is better. So that the US is unconditionally right.

Nope. North Korea is totalitarian, which is never acceptable. South Korea is pretty much left to its own affairs, which is NOT the case with poor Latin America countries. Their people are often exploited and killed so the ruling juntas can stay in charge. And who lends those juntas a hand, in the name of fighting "communism"? The United States.

Educate yourself. You need it.

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I personally am a Democratic Socialist, the main reason Che is admired so much by the public who know enough about him is cause he left a promising life that would not put his life in danger (life as a physicist) a privileged life, in order to save peasants from a corrupt government, that is it in a nut shell...

Personally i think that Communism is borderline stupid, it is asking for equality which is pretty much impossible when we live in a world that is ran by capitalists who care about the almighty dollar. But Che was seen as a little different, the guy was loved cause he cared about the little people, he cared about the peasants and the civilians that were being oppressed. Castro also cared but to a bit of a lesser degree at the end cause he somewhat abused his power when he became president by oppressing the same people he promised to save.

Che was a true legend in his day, while his belief of Communism fell flat he was still a person who was not afraid of standing up for his beliefs.

Hopefully that more than answers your question it is not him being idolized as a commie but it is him being idolized as a humanitarian, sure he took part in executions but those executions were needed in order to proceed.

“I think it's funny to be delicate with subjects that are explosive.”
--- Jerry Seinfeld

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Too bad his -and your- precious "beliefs" involve murdering and oppressing people by the millions so you can play dictator.

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by ValkyrieOakenshield74 "but I can admire Che for his concerns about the people no body else care about."

This comment above shows pretty well why so many can ignorantly idolize and make a hero of an obvious annkst, mass murderer and tyrant.

The truths of this so called great man:

1. He personally executed some of his own men during the cuban revolution.
Reason- Failure in battle or just questioning Che

2. After the cuban revolution many Cubans were executed by order of Che.
Reason- They jsut simply and only disagreed with his politics.

3. During all the executions, when asked to please stop killing so many Cubans, Che' told everyone "The Executions would continue."

4. There were no trials for people that disagreed with Castro and Che, they just wee executed the following day. Che was the Judge & Jury, his men were the executioner.

5. If you were against Che or Castro's Cuba, or wanted to leave, you were put in a concentration camp and forced to do hard work until they gave you permission to leave, of which sometime took years for some.

6. During the Bay of Pigs invation, in some towns, word from Che' and Castro was, that if the Invation from the U.S was successful, sodiers were ordered to execute everyone.

7. Che like Castro lived in a nice house, and eat like king, while the rest of the Cuban people were given controled amounts of 2nd rate food.

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[deleted]

It's true. From my personal observations, 6 out of 10 people that wear those shirts don't even know his history or agenda. Hell, some don't even know what communist means...

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

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For lack of understanding Hitler redefined what communism means to the easily herded masses. Karl Marx's credo remains a viable application given the right people to apply it.

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It was the beret. People are suckers for berets on bearded revolutionaries.

"Kunta Kinte... yabba dabba dabba doo"

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For 90% of people this is true.

Most people have no idea about what Che did or stood for. He looks badass on a t-shirt and represents rebellion which is why teenagers picked up on him

I have alot of respect for Che. I don't believe any particular ideaology is correct, but to live as you believe whole heartedly in it is something I can respect.

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[deleted]

have aways wondered why someone considered a communist is so revered by people all over the world.


Believe it or not, there are places all over the world where the word "communist" isn't a synonym for "evil," where the communist party is thriving and actually has some political sway.

People idolize Che for the same reason people idolize George Washington: when he was dissatisfied with the status quo, he did something about it. As others have said, it's just a matter of where you stand on some political matters that makes you love or hate him. If someone is a capitalist and fights for his beliefs, he is a hero in America or Canada or England. If he is a communist and does the same, he is a monster. The fact is, communism and capitalism, for all their differences, are both beautiful as abstract ideas, but loaded with flaws and produce a lot of victims when realized. It seems silly to glorify someone who was willing to kill and die for one economic ideology, and to vilify one who fought for another. Then again, I've spoken with a number of people who condemn today's Muslim terrorists, but think of the Crusades as a proud moment in history.

Personally, I'm a capitalist, and am quite happy that I was born into a capitalist society. However, I think it's quite silly how deeply so many people still fear communism, to the point of rejecting any compromise between the two. And if a lot of people are communists, and would like to form a commune, even an entire country for those who support their ideals, then more power to them. I think a whole country full of willing communists might be quite successful. The problem only enters when propaganda and coercion are employed.

As for the t-shirt sporting college kids, they're not really supporting Che so much as a purely iconic representation of someone who fought for what they believed in. I agree that they're often stupid and naive for unwittingly promoting an ideology about which they may know nothing (and more over in a commodified way that would have been repulsive to the very person depicted), but it's a phase that I think a lot of people go through, and can be forgiven. I'm not sure who I'm paraphrasing, but I've heard it said that "If you are not a Communist when you are twenty, you have no heart. If you are still a Communist when you are thirty, you have no brain."

One last thing: If I'm understanding people correctly, there seem to be at least a couple of people conflating Nazism with communism. This shows how thoroughly and mindlessly people have been programmed to reject the two. Hitler was vehemently against communism. In fact, it is argued that fear of communists taking over is what led to Hitler's success in Germany. If you think that both Nazism and communism are terrible things, then you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but if you want to have an educated opinion on the two, you may want to be able to distinguish them.

I apologize if this sounds condescending (I'm sure it does) but it is really disappointing how quickly people--be they the wearing a Che shirt or driving a Ford F-150 with a "These colors don't run" bumper sticker--will reject or support ideologies without making any effort to understand them first, especially in a day and age where information is so readily available.

there's no place you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.

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[deleted]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your response. We certainly agree on a number of points. Communism and capitalism are certainly in opposition, almost diametrically. Che was indeed a gun-toting communist, in the same respect that Washington was a gun-toting capitalist. And yes, communism does naively depend on a set of incorruptible leaders, without which, the whole thing fails miserably. However, I think we need to point out that the same assumption is implicit in free-market capitalism, and similar problems arise when the corrupt ultimately and inevitably take power in a capitalist society. We can see this happening with the drug and oil industries in America.

Although i agree that the two philosophies are irreconcilable in many ways, when I say that I am a capitalist it does not mean that I think communism is "bad," as you put it. I prefer capitalism because I am a person lucky enough to be born with some skills that will allow me a moderate degree of success under capitalism, a happier life for me and my family than I think I would experience in, say, Cuba. However, had I been born, by no fault of my own, as a person without the skills that pay in America, I may well have been on the other side of the fence. While in America we're taught that Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Castro, and Pol Pot are to be lumped together, life under Lenin is remembered fondly by many young Russians, and of and Castro still has a good deal of support in Cuba. Of course we can argue that this is merely the result of propaganda, but America is subject to that same criticism.

I will say that I think that I think capitalism is more 'natural,' so to speak. In essence, four billion years of evolution have prepared us to succeed under capitalism. The same fundamental rules underlie both systems, and quite obviously, both systems are quite conducive to a certain type of progress. Because of this competition inherent in all of us, I think communism is a much harder sell to most people, especially those who are disposed to succeed in capitalism.

However, I would be quite interested to see a free communist state opened where those who believe communism's ideals may come and go as they please. I wouldn't be at all surprised if, in such a state, we observed a more social and less technological progress. I've always found it funny that people so quickly judge communist states like Cuba to be failures, but these judgments is based almost exclusively on capitalist criteria for success. While I certainly disapprove of some of Castro's methods and policies, I think a lot more effort should be dedicated to understanding the success of Cuba by communist standards. I actually think it's quite remarkable how successful Castro's Cuba has been despite the embargo. It would have been nice to see how such a country would have turned out under normal (read: 'legal') trading relations with the US.

Anyway, this is losing focus quickly. My main point is that, while I personally prefer capitalism, and I find capitalism to be the most natural environment for the average human being to thrive in, I don't think communism should simply be dismissed out of hand until it's been tried in a more democratic way, and judged by its own standards. I think there is a lot that we could learn from a society of free, cooperative (in its most literal sense), educated adults working toward something other than the almighty dollar.

there's no place you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.

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[deleted]

"Free Will" is precisely the motivation for Che Guevara. George Washington committed Genocide and enabled, through the government of the United States, a means of expropriating land from Native inhabitants west. Of course, George Washington also hated the institution of slavery despite owning slaves and claimed that laborers of all christian sects, of judaism, of mohammed, and atheist should be welcomed to the country without discrimination. George Washington is in many ways a contradictory figure, and he was a perfect capitalist the same way Che Guevara was a perfect communist; in otherwords, not. "Free Will" is the choice one makes against another; how this vindicates any economic, political, or philosophical system is beyond me. Che made choices not "communist" enough and Washington made choices not "liberal" enough, but they both made choices that were delivered in some small part as a way of establishing betterment for more over a few. That should at least count for something.

I'd also like to point out that Max Weber (author of the Protestant Ethic) committed himself to national goals in Germany which many found in line with Hitler's. I'd also like to point out that he tried to ally himself to socialism (as in, fag poet worker-peasant communism) when the tides were turning in WW1.

There's a reason why the democratic, liberal, populist, libertarian, and Christian movements followed the example of communists when the fascists came a-knocking. They started resistance (some of which was peaceful, most of which was not) and aligned themselves in a partisan (that is, explicitly anti-fascist) committee helping to fight fascism. Fascism is the alignment of gain through conquering and the justification of predjudicial execution wound together.

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[deleted]

It appears there are a few here who like to hear themselves talk...


...which only annoys when rambling replaces relevance...especially so when the rambling serves as an attempt to inflate one's self with a false sense of belonging to a nonexistent IMDB intelligentsia.

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Communism and Capitalism both have their problems, both sides have their fundamentalists who believe that the only reason there are flaws in their respective system is because they are not being performed "purely". The advantage of capitalism is that is it rooted in the natural economic truths of supply and demand, which communism tries to eliminate through artificial means, which is, at this point in our history, impossible. I think a lot of rebels during Che's time were rebelling against the cruelties of capitalism, not democracy, which are in fact in conflict with each other (the pursuit of the individual vs. the will of the people). Modern democracy is a bit of a sham since the people with the money are the ones with the power. Therefore people like Che turn to communism or, more accurately socialism, as a way of combating capitalism while truly it is democracy that is really the andidote.

--
"Surrender Dorothy!"

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Believe it or not, there are places all over the world where the word "communist" isn't a synonym for "evil," where the communist party is thriving and actually has some political sway.

People idolize Che for the same reason people idolize George Washington: when he was dissatisfied with the status quo, he did something about it. As others have said, it's just a matter of where you stand on some political matters that makes you love or hate him. If someone is a capitalist and fights for his beliefs, he is a hero in America or Canada or England. If he is a communist and does the same, he is a monster. The fact is, communism and capitalism, for all their differences, are both beautiful as abstract ideas, but loaded with flaws and produce a lot of victims when realized. It seems silly to glorify someone who was willing to kill and die for one economic ideology, and to vilify one who fought for another. Then again, I've spoken with a number of people who condemn today's Muslim terrorists, but think of the Crusades as a proud moment in history.

Personally, I'm a capitalist, and am quite happy that I was born into a capitalist society. However, I think it's quite silly how deeply so many people still fear communism, to the point of rejecting any compromise between the two. And if a lot of people are communists, and would like to form a commune, even an entire country for those who support their ideals, then more power to them. I think a whole country full of willing communists might be quite successful. The problem only enters when propaganda and coercion are employed.

As for the t-shirt sporting college kids, they're not really supporting Che so much as a purely iconic representation of someone who fought for what they believed in. I agree that they're often stupid and naive for unwittingly promoting an ideology about which they may know nothing (and more over in a commodified way that would have been repulsive to the very person depicted), but it's a phase that I think a lot of people go through, and can be forgiven. I'm not sure who I'm paraphrasing, but I've heard it said that "If you are not a Communist when you are twenty, you have no heart. If you are still a Communist when you are thirty, you have no brain."

One last thing: If I'm understanding people correctly, there seem to be at least a couple of people conflating Nazism with communism. This shows how thoroughly and mindlessly people have been programmed to reject the two. Hitler was vehemently against communism. In fact, it is argued that fear of communists taking over is what led to Hitler's success in Germany. If you think that both Nazism and communism are terrible things, then you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but if you want to have an educated opinion on the two, you may want to be able to distinguish them.

I apologize if this sounds condescending (I'm sure it does) but it is really disappointing how quickly people--be they the wearing a Che shirt or driving a Ford F-150 with a "These colors don't run" bumper sticker--will reject or support ideologies without making any effort to understand them first, especially in a day and age where information is so readily available.



Easily one of the best posts on this board. There are so few people that live in actual reality regarding Che. Most this board is made up of either lovers or haters. Those people are exactly the same people there really is no difference between them. Lovers are just haters that don't see the dark side and haters are just lovers that don't see his ideals and compassionate for the poor and his issues with injustice.

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"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head." --Winston Churchill

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"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."

...OR "if you're not a conservative at 40 you still haven't lost your heart"
Clever man that Churchil, but not wise (because there is a difference between the 2)

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Get your facts together, will you.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill#Misattributed

Furthermore, the Churchill Centre, on its Falsely Attributed Quotations page, states "there is no record of anyone hearing Churchill say this." Paul Addison of Edinburgh University is quoted as stating: "Surely Churchill can't have used the words attributed to him. He'd been a Conservative at 15 and a Liberal at 35! And would he have talked so disrespectfully of Clemmie, who is generally thought to have been a lifelong Liberal?"

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I understand that Communism -- and Socialism -- have together killed something in excess of 100 million, possibly 300 million, people living under it in the last century.

It's destroyed priceless ancient heirlooms --- spectacular works of art and artisanship, labors of love by master craftsmen and master artists, handed down for generation after generation. Thrown into fires to burn centuries of human creative not because the flame was needed but because some sick ƑŰČĶ POS said to do it.

What makes you so foolish as to imagine that alone -- the deaths and destruction -- which has happened in multiple places and nations -- does not sufficiently damn it as a blatantly wrongheaded meme?

And that doesn't even touch on the soul-deadening suffering it's inflicted on literally BILLIONS of people in those same places.

"Sweden" is the closest thing to a success story you can argue against that with.

Not my idea of a good trade-off in opportunities....

I DO happen to know enough about communism to say it doesn't work. It can, in places like Sweden, fake it for a while, but it cannot do anything but fail, and, while it is in effect, it will destroy more than it creates. This is inherent in its own flawed perceptions of what humans are, what makes them create and do, and why they do it.

It equates me, a talented computer programmer, with an equally talented cordon bleu chef -- for cooking, programming, and clerical work. Which of us get which job is irrelevant, because under communism, people don't matter. Individuals don't matter. Humans as interchangeable parts. Which is why killing comes so easily under communism and socialism. Lives don't matter any more than talents.

So, sorry -- I don't care why anyone despises communism and socialism. They are despicable memes. Humanity would have been vastly better off if they'd never been created, never been disseminated.

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Nice reductio ad hitlerum douche,

Hitler created a policy that killed 6,000 people - Che saw to it that 200 war criminals, torturers, and rapists recieve justice against a wall.

Nice analogy Moron, you must love the college dropout trio of Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck.

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+ Che-haters ... Humberto Fontova is a clownish hack who’s mad his War Criminal daddy got arrested.

... a total revisionist with no appreciation for scholarship and a total joke in the academic community who just laughs at him.

He's even worse than that tranny Ann Coulter.

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Well...I could answer this question as a scientist and a person who has studied history (ie in a totally impartial and uninvolved way) but I could also answer this question as someone who was brought up in a house where the picture of Che was hanging in the living room.

From a brief look at the previous posts, I saw that most of the people here come from parts of the world where "communism" is equivalent to (as bad as) "nazism", so I thought that maybe it would be more interesting for you to hear the (non objective) point of view of someone who has had different experiences...

I grew up in a country throughout the recent history of which, "communists" were violently and constantly persecuted for their ideas: in times of peace they were forced to sign humiliating "renunciation of beliefs" papers in order to get a job, avoid exile or prison and in times of political unstability they were the first to be tortured and executed. A communist (unlike the common western world/ U.S. misconception of the term) is NOT an evil person who supports Stalin or any of the violent Soviet practices, but most probably the exact opposite. A communist is a romantic idealist who believes that the world can and must be more fair, who does not tolerate the fact that the larger part of the world has to suffer in order for a fortunate minority to live in luxury, who believes that capitalism will eventually reach a dead end (hmmm...that sounds like something that's already happening) and who dreams of a future without exploitation, where everyone will be able have control over their own lives. This is the kind of communist that I 've known...a person who is willing to sacrifice his own safety and happiness, in order to fight for a better world.

And this is the kind of communist that Ernesto Guevara was...a poet, a dreamer but also a realist. He became a doctor to relieve human pain (he spent months in a leper hospital, taking care of disfigured patients whom most people couldn't even get close to) but very soon he found out that there is much more pain caused by the unfair organisation of society than by all the diseases together. So he joined the Cuba expedition, and remember that he wasn't even fighting for his own country or his own people, he was just fighting for what he considered fair, for the people who needed their freedom and independence. And when the revolution succeeded, he didn't just grab a chair snd sit back in his office (although he was offered a minister's position), but worked in factories and constructions and wherever he was needed in order to organise the newly-reborn country. But even then he was restless...he wanted a global revolution and he was persuaded it could succeed, he travelled to Africa and other parts of the world and he ended up in Bolivia, where he got involved in yet another revolution.

Ernesto Guevara was a real person, he had weaknesses and talents, he was a father and a friend, he was serious and ambitious, tender and funny and he never cared if his life would be short, he just wanted it to be meaningful...But at the same time, "el Che" is a legend and a symbol. His life, his death, his portrait, the songs about him are symbols of the revolution. In every corner of the world where there are people fighting for freedom and justice his example is remembered and his picture gives strength and inspiration to those who stand up for their rights. And every time another person holding Che's picture gets chased and tortured and hurt by those who try to suppress the revolution, that picture becomes even more valuable and even more meaningful...

So this is my answer to the question about "why Che is idolised" and I know you'll find it subjective but I hope that the next time you see his portrait (even stamped on a fashionable T-shirt or a pair of socks <<capitalism's filthy revenge>>) it might make you stop for a while and think about how there are still people in this world who dream about making it better...


--pardon my long post and I really hope I m not offending anyone (I am aware that the imdb boards are not a place for such discussions, but since luvbulmers01 asked...) --


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Uncle $am can never accept a nation like Cuba under Che taking his boot of their throat.

American Imperialism needs blood to suck, and Cuba has been the proverbial 'garlic and crucifix' for the past 5 decades. At the center of Cuba's valiant struggle, has been the heroic memory of CHE GUEVARA. <3

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Yes it is oh so charming to think that when I was less than 1 year old, Cuba via proxy with the Soviet Union could have blasted my family and most of the eastern and midwest USA to nuclear oblivion. (see Cuban Missile Crisis dumb a##).

I don't really care much for that idea.

It's also very interesting how "successful" the Soviet Union turned out to be in the long run. Also so charming how well China treats their people from Tienanmen massacre to today's "Great Firewall" of Chinese censorship.

And those photos & online video's I've seen of Pyongyang, NK make it look soooo progressive...for 1950.

What a screw up you are.

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Indeed.

A communist is a romantic idealist who believes that the world can and must be more fair, who does not tolerate the fact that the larger part of the world has to suffer in order for a fortunate minority to live in luxury, who believes that capitalism will eventually reach a dead end


Anyone -- ANYONE -- who ignores what communism and socialism have done in the last century is not a "romantic idealist" but a damnfool IDIOT unable to learn from past mistakes.

There is not a single nation of the world which has NOT benefited from what capitalism -- and the related notions of freedom, liberty, and individualism -- have produced. There are two key metrics -- infant mortality and life expectancy -- these are important because they reflect long-term living conditions in any society, or regional or national group. Go look at those two numbers for the poorest nations on earth. The CIA World Factbook is a source for them, though there are others, if you don't trust them. Now go hunt down what those same two numbers were for the richest members of either the USA or the UK in 1900 -- the richest people of the richest nation at that time. Now tell me that the entire world has not benefited from that.

So if you want the world to be RICH, then you should be emulating the USA, not whining about it. Look at what America has done RIGHT, and find ways to emulate it. Yes, America has not always lived up to its ideals -- sometimes -- all to often, even -- it has supported wrong leaders in places around the world. Vietnam was a perfect example of this. As I understand it, Ho Chi Mihn was American educated, and he wanted to set the place up using America as a model -- but unfortunately, he fought against the #$%#$%$#^$# French, and we were allies with the French, so instead of siding with him, we supported the French. Yes, remarkably stupid and wrongheaded. But, having done that, we won the war -- but allowed our idiot MEDIA to lose it for us -- after the "Tet Offensive" occurred, it was a clear loss for North Vietnam. There were people there talking about how to approach the notion of surrender, to get the best possible terms. THEN they got word of how the American media was handling it, and they knew all they had to do was to hold on, and the media would give them everything they needed.

Neoneocon discusses two of the key photographic LIES the media produced here:
http://neoneocon.com/2005/04/22/mind-is-difficult-thing-to-change-part_22/

She discusses it in more detail here:
http://neoneocon.com/2005/04/21/mind-is-difficult-thing-to-change-part/
http://neoneocon.com/2005/04/28/mind-is-difficult-thing-to-change-2/
http://neoneocon.com/2005/05/12/mind-is-difficult-thing-to-change-part-4/

She was a liberal surrounded by liberals until 9/11. In the above, she discusses what she Knew vs what was real, but which she has, since questioning The Script, learned the media failed to tell her, or told her something deceptive, about Vietnam. By all means -- don't take her word for it. But listen to what she says. And consider her arguments, and do whatever research you need to do to make you accept her claims are valid.

This stuff is the Red pill. Once you take a good, open-minded look at the evidence, you'll never trust the media's story quite the same ever again. Once you start asking questions, you'll be surprised how often the media's story is actually found very very wanting.

Capitalism, with freedom, liberty, and individidualism, is not perfect. When done properly, it's the most empowering, enriching, and effective system humans have ever invented.

Yes, by giving people the FREEDOM to succeed, it necessarily also has to allow them the freedom to FAIL. And that guarantees inequality of RESULTS.

But "if you are going to say that it is better that the poor be poorer as long as the rich are not richer, then you are wrong. ...You do not create wealth, opportunity, and prosperity that way, you do not create a property-owning democracy that way."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw

Communism, socialism -- these memes STEAL your individualism. They are the enemies of individualism. They are inherently soul-rending memes which reduce all to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know where to start, to make ANY nation successful and wealthy? I suggest reading a book by P.J. O'Rourke, called Eat The Rich.
http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Rich-Treatise-Economics-ORourke/dp/0871137607
He travelled the world looking at the successes, the basket cases, the mediocre societies leading up to the end of the last century... and he found two things that led to the difference between the economic basket cases and the economic "miracles". And he's a good, witty author. Well worth the read.

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It's popular for ignorant liberal kids to idolizes their enemies. For example, here in Canada, Hugo Chavez is seen as a hero, while he is hated and is seen as a dictator in own country!

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It's not just the ignorant who have historical reference points that reach back to 1985 but the well informed self diluding romantics as well which runs from all the Che loving kids living in the comfy paradise of their parents home to the highly accomplished and self rightous like Johnny Sartre and Lenny Bernstein.

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