MovieChat Forums > Timber Falls (2008) Discussion > Demonizing hillbillies and believers...

Demonizing hillbillies and believers...


My wife's side of the family have some pretty backwood folk, not hillbillies, but Georgian and Floridian country folk. I've met many, many people through them and my own family has country folk in Kansas, and none of them are psycho, serial killers. They are good people who would do nothing but help a person if they were in trouble. They are not religious nuts that go around judging people and making them "atone" for sins of the flesh. Why do movies always have to make hillbillies out to be the worst kind of sadistic rapists and murderers. Most of these people are salt of the earth, kind people who would open their home up to someone in need.

Why is it that filmmakers love to rail on people of faith, people who are patriotic? As if being spiritual and a patriot makes someone a monster. It just makes me sick that the only time you see religious or patriotic people is when they are the psycho killer in a horror movie.

All you have to do is look at the rate of crime. In small towns, it's minimal, in big cities it is enormous. Backwood country folk are good people. Sure, they have some bad seeds, but the grand majority are nice, kind, loving people.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Name for me, five big or even moderate successful films, in the last 25 years that portray *Christians* in a good light. Five. Good luck.

Then, name for me as many as you can that show Christians as psychos, hateful zealots, serial killers, bigots, what-have-you. Hope your fingers don't get tired.

There is no way you can compare the disparity there, no way.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Well, that was a spectacular failure. These films show no Christians:

The Nativity Story
The Chronicles of Narnia: Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe
The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian
The Ultimate Gift
The Prince of Egypt
One Night With the King
The Last Temptation of Christ
The Last Sin Eater
The Celestine Prophecy
What Dreams May Come

The rest of the list describes tiny, niche films with minuscule budgets and micro box office. So, once again, please list 10 big or moderate films that show Christians in a good light.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

"Ummmm"... Jesus was a jew, so was Mary. Try to keep up. There were NO Christians in the Passion of the Christ, they were all JEWS. Only later did the apostles become Christians (after seeing Christ again in the upper room). "Do you see it"?

I'm very well aware of why people are called "Christians" seeing that I am one and have been one for well over 20 years now. My hobby is philosophy and Christian apologetics so, I'm pretty well educated as to what makes one a Christian.

I asked for films that showed Christians in a good light, that request remains. After you do that, then I'll list films that show Christians in a bad light.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Since I believe you will never be able to list those ten, here are a few films (but by no means all) that show Christians as psychos, morons or bigots or backwards, judgmental prudes:

Carrie
The Dead Zone
Masters of Horror – Family and Pro-Life
Murder on the Orient Express
Timber Falls
A Handmaid's Tale
Escape From L.A.
1984
Manhunter
No Way to Treat a Lady
Prophesy
Blues Brothers
Sleepy Hollow
The Piano Teacher
The Shawshank Redemption
Name of the Rose
Gingerbread Man
Wickerman
The Crime of Padre Amaro
Crimson Rivers
Se7en
Fletch Lives
Stigmata
Passion of the Priest
Lost Souls
But I'm a Cheerleader
Tracey Takes On (Blue-eyed Christian woman rant)
Bless the Child
Leap of Faith
I, Confess
Tank
Coming to America
Jude
Saturday Night Live (The Church Lady)
Last Rites
Man of the House
O Brother Where Art Thou
The Gift
Braveheart
Contact
Constantine
The Da Vinci Code
Silent Hill
The Mist
Needful Things
Songcatcher
The Last Supper (1995)
Witches of Eastwick
The Boondock Saints
Lightning Bug
The Rosary Murders
Cape Fear
The Seventh Sign
Booty Call
Southpark
Orgazmo
The Simpsons
Crimes of Passion
The Apostle
The King
Footloose
Frailty
Silver Bullet
Ladyhawke
Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney version)
The Scarlet Letter
Junebug
Drop Dead Gorgeous
The Rapture
One Missed Call
Life of Brian
Dogma
Priest
Killer Nun
Jesus Of Montreal
School of the Holy Beast
The Beast
The Magdalene Sisters
The Boys of St. Vincent
Monty Python's The Meaning of Life
The Canterbury Tales (1972)
I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry
V for Vendetta
Demolition Man
There Will Be Blood
Kingdom Of Heaven


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

I think I now know why there are so many films showing Christians in bad light. Filmmakers have met you.

Typical hater reply. Yawn. And as to your comment: I was previously trying to engage your topic in an intelligent debate. I see that is impossible might I remind you of a quip from your first post to me:

This was a horror pic set in West Virginia. What did u want them to do? Have Ice-T be the killer?

Not exactly "engaging intelligent debate".

I asked you to name 10 films, you failed (badly, IMHO). I retorted with a *long* list of movies that portray Christians in a bad light by showing them as either morons, psychos, bigots or backward prudes (or hypocrites for that matter) and you respond with a personal attack. Typical. You are unable to argue the merits of the post so you resort to insulting inanities, with comments like "lighten up" as if I'm all uptight here and shaking with pent up frustration. Here are a "few words of advice for you", ad hominem attacks don't make the grade. Debate the issue at hand, don't mudsling and toss up straw men.

On to your gasping indignation with the following entries:

1. Monty Python's the Meaning of Life? Goodness! Really?!!? Yes... really. "Harry, I think I'll have a French Tickler, for I am a Protestant!" I shouldn't need to say anymore than that.

2. Drop Dead Gorgeous? Hello? Have you even seen the film? Rebecca Leeman sings and dances with a Jesus doll on a rolling crucifix. You may find it ok to reduce one's God to such repulsive garbage, I do not. Besides the fact that it makes fun of the entire church of Christ in the Midwest. This doesn't portray Christians as morons? Please. Stop feigning shock that I would list this film, it shows that you have either not seen the film, are grossly insensitive or are simply lying, only you can answer which.

3. Saturday Night Live's the Church Lady? Gasp, really?! Yes. The Church Lady is hypocritical, judgmental, moronic, cruel, legalistic, prideful (that is an understatement) foolish and just plain mean. This isn't the only ugly portrayal of a Christian, the little skits with the teens that keep saying, "WWJD" while extolling the beauty of boy band asses is one of many.

4. Footloose? (sigh) Yes. The pastor is a haughty, angry, pinched puritan that rules over the town with an iron fist. Him, and his flock are seen as ignorant, legalistic prudes that BURN BOOKS!!! Hello? BOOK BURNING! Uh, if you don't see how that portrays Christians in a bad light, what more do you need? Burning teens at the stake for growing breasts?! Either WATCH the films, or stop pretending you don't know what the problem is.

5. The Simpsons - Ned Flanders. 'Nuff said.

6. The Blues Brothers????? Yes!!!!!!!! The "Penguin" they go to see when Jake gets out of prison, she's a pip, right? Real salt of the earth, excellent living witness. How about Jake and Elwood? Lets see... ex-convicts who live like Bonnie and Clyde, or Clyde and Clyde.

I think you clipped this list from somewhere not knowing why these films were ear-marked as "bad"

Wrong. Go ahead and do a Google search. I did this list from memory and from just browsing my DVD library.

The Passion of the Christ doesn't count as a positive portrayal because Jesus was Jewish???

Uhhhh... are you aware of the difference between a Jew and Christian? Besides, this is a picture done by a *Christian* for *Christians* about a historical event. This isn't fiction done by Hollywood, or a documentary about current events. We're talking about how Christians are portrayed in movies, not historical nonfiction.

Now, for you information. Do I like any of the films I've mentioned as portraying Christians in a bad light? YES! I pretty much like (or love) all of them, with a few exceptions (Orgazmo and a couple others). I LOVE Monty Python's the Meaning of Life, Drop Dead Gorgeous, Saturday Night Live, Footloose and The Blues Brothers. I bought Drop Dead Gorgeous and gave it away as birthday gifts to two of my family members! I know for a fact that at least two Christians work on the Simpsons show! One gave an interview for Christianity Today. I own (pretty much) every film I listed, either on DVD or VHS.

I'm not saying I don't like the films, or that they even *bother* me at all! All I'm saying is that the amount of films that portray Christians in a bad light FAR, FAR outnumber the ones that show us in even a *neutral* light. There has really never been a big film that portrayed an *obvious* Christian character in a positive light. One exception I can think of (and it's not a "big" film) is Radio Inside, which really could be construed as negative because Jesus keeps appearing to him laying heavy burdens on him until he kind of cracks. I mean, maybe the Preacher's Wife qualifies (it make $48,102,795 domestic).

Anyway, you turned this into me getting all uptight and needing to "lighten up" when what it was supposed to be is us discussing/debating the topic that I posted originally, which was "Why is it that filmmakers love to rail on people of faith, people who are patriotic?" Which we then sort of morphed it into making lists that either portray Christians in a bad light or a good light. I'm not uptight, I'm not mad, I'm not crying in the corner about how Hollywood portrays Christians... I'm just talkin' here. We're not arguing if the films are hateful attacks on Christian, we're just debating how it is that *overwhelmingly* Christian (or patriots, for that matter) are portrayed in a bad light by filmmakers. Lets keep it from being a personal attack on me (or you), and making assumptions about how we feel. Ok?


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

[deleted]

Most of those films portray the danger of unbridled zeolotry (is that a word?). Unfortunately these dangerous 'christians' are the ones who stand out in our society (perhaps for the reason you suggest) and give the rest of us a bad name.

"I love corn!"

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"Unbridled zealotry" sounds good to me. Yeah, it really only takes one arrogant, judgmental bunghole to turn three or four seekers long-life atheists.

Funny thing is, I hate judgmental, loveless Christians more than anyone, but we still get lumped in with them. Of course, it's very convenient for the atheists to lump us in, because a loving, thinking, intelligent, friendly Christian is frightening to them.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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"Yeah, it really only takes one arrogant, judgmental bunghole to turn three or four seekers long-life atheists. "

You make that sound like a bad thing.

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It is a bad thing. When a person is seeking for real answers and is turned away by a judgmental a-hole, that is bad.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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It's not the Christians flying planes into buildings or detonating themselves with a vest of plastique explosives in a crowded public area.

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No, they just blow up government buildings in OK, killing a bunch of kids in a daycare, along with others. Waco, Ruby Ridge? Does that ring a bell? Please stop acting like the only terrorists are international. We have home grown crazies right here in the USA and they are Christians or have a very strong religious faith.

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Oh please, yes you can find a few isolated incidents but you must cover decades! You have to be willfully ignorant or mentally retarded to in any way try to make an equivalence between Christian and Islamic terrorism. The rate of incidence and scope of Islamic terrorism easily dwarfs that of ANY other religion. And the people doing that were not Christians since they violated Christ's teachings. Every single day all over the world you have Jihadists carrying out terrorist acts. Focus on who the real enemy is.

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"Since I believe you will never be able to list those ten, here are a few films (but by no means all) that show Christians as psychos, morons or bigots or backwards, judgmental prudes: "

Huh? I don't see where you're going with this. Are you suggesting that christians are not psychos in real life?



One should judge a man mainly from his depravities.Virtues can be faked.Depravities are real.Kinski

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Har-har... what do you know... we have either a very poor comedian on our hands, or one of the disgusting bigots I have been complaining about. Which are you, there Norse-Viking?


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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That's for me to know an you to find out Bladerunner;)

One should judge a man mainly from his depravities.Virtues can be faked.Depravities are real.Kinski

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Thanks, but I think I'll pass on figuring that one out. ;-)

A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding delights in wisdom. Proverbs 10:23

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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So I happened upon this film and quite enjoyed it. It wasn't the torture porn I was dreading after the opening minutes and I'm glad I stuck with it.

I come from not just a christian famly, but a catholic one. I gave it up. As a woman who believes in science I found nothing there for me. I studied history in college with ancient studies, both of these included looking at Christianity and its foundations and the rammifications it had across the known world.
So there are my relevent qualifications in case anyone on this board asks.

Now many replies were deleted and from the tone of subsequent replies maybe we're all much better off for that.

Any way the Bible was edited many times, it is a recorded historical fact from the various Oecumenical councils, one of the very few trust worthy facts we have from the corrupt rulership in the Christian Church(not the Christians, nor their belief, just the govt like organisation who runs it).

You want a mainstream horror film with Christian overtones where christians are perceived as good and their beleifs are rewarding; House. It wasn't enjoyable for me, or many other last time I checked the board.

The reason Christians aren't depicted so much in mainstream cinema is because of the lack of interest people have in that kind of preaching. To show a minority such as inbred hicks living in the Virginia mountains as mass murdering psychos is entertaining because there's a distance between reality and fiction with that. If I were to be offended every time Irish were displayed as drunken inbred idiots(which is many!) even in our own films(Shrooms)believe me, I would have...well pretty much done what you did on every board!

Many Stephen King films(Carrie aside) have a lot of Chistian undertones,look up most of his recent works...alot of redemption. Just because it's not as "in your face" as "anti"-Christian images doesn't negate its existence.

Actually, if anything it presupposes the subtlety that Christian followers will approach their beliefs with. Unlike the roaming door knockers, Christians in hollywood don't need to flaunt their beliefs like those who portray them as crazy killers.

Beyond it all, it really comes down to the negativity attached to the funamentalist christians in the poopular perspective. Don't be offended, it's only a movie.

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You obviously didn't study much science. Western science was laid down by people of Judeo Christian faith. This is historical fact. Many scientists today are also believers. Stop listening to morons like Richard Dawkins.

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I've never read anything by Dawkins, but thank you for your ignorance, especially in your previous message. Many Christians are still killing people in various ways, murders, rapists, paedophiles, etc. 9/11 is not a reason to vindicate one religious group over another. No one previous to this had even mentioned anything to do with that.

Yes, many scientists were ascribed to a certain faith, many were not. Their religion didn't hinder their minds, but it prevents many others from accepting scientific truths. Look at the southern american states that won't teach it. I was not referring to the scientists when I made that comment, I was referring to the people of faith who denied that science.

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or one of the disgusting bigots I have been complaining about.


Of course, it's very convenient for the atheists to lump us in, because a loving, thinking, intelligent, friendly Christian is frightening to them.


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Don't forget Primal Fear and True Confessions and The Confessional...Plus Monty Python in general. LOL

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yea but those movies still are made by christians and are supposed represent christian values

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Perhaps you dislike the way Christians are portrayed but are you just as up in arms over the way Pagans have been portrayed in films for ...years?

I somehow doubt it.

Why make fun of the beliefs? Hm....

talking snakes
gods impregnating pre-teens
torture sequences seen as beautifully redeeming
pits of fire
demons posessed pigs
children killed by bears for being rude to an old man
mass murder by drowning is used as a children's tale...


gee...can't think of anything to find vaguely humorous.

and yes - I do find other religious beliefs just as silly.

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No, I'm not "up in arms" about how Pagans are portrayed. I would expect that Pagans are up in arms about that.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Maybe not big movies, but aren't the LEFT BEHIND movies pretty successful? Also, Fireproof? I am a Jewish person, and though I have a fundamental difference in my beliefs with relation to Jesus Christ, I enjoy some movies of Christian content including: ME&YOU, US, Forever; UNIDENTIFIED; as well as a few others. Luckily, I don't take the portrayals on screen to my real life beliefs, ala The Mist, End of the Line, Timber Falls, etc. I also wouldn't believe that all "hillbillies" or rural folks are cannibals, freaks, or loons, or religious wingnuts. I admit that I would NOT veer off into unknown areas or trails like these two idiots Mike and Sheryl nor would I explore the "Blair Witch forest" or things of that nature. I may or may not expect these things to occur, but I do NOT tempt fate. There are various animals, weirdos, and all kinds of mayhem in the city, the suburbs, rural areas, and the "backwoods." I try not to act like a tourist idiot in places I am unfamiliar with, and I don't think I would stay in a "hostel" either in an unknown country. You know what I mean?

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[deleted]

Yes, and there has never been a division that is called "Anti-Black People", but before 1965 finding a black person who wasn't a servant or hired help on a TV show was about as easy as finding a needle in haystack.

Was there a division in studios called "Anti-Asian"? No, but most Asian people were stereotypically portrayed as having buck teeth and the intellect of children.

It takes someone genuinely naive to sit there and say that just because a studio doesn't have a "Anti-Faith" division that they don't engage in negative stereotyping. Wake up and smell the coffee, Joe.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Excellent example, DayToDay! Thank you. I don't believe the division that created that show was called, "Anti-Black Division", yet it was racist to the core. (thanks DayToDay)

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Er... poor analogy. Germans in WW2 and slavery flicks are clearly historical works about that ERA, we are not currently portraying Germans as Nazis or whites as slave owners. Big difference.

Ad hominem attacks and name-calling will hardly help your flawed assertions.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

You are just incapable of having a discussion without name-calling. You understand that name-calling is the last vestige of a man with no argument.

I am not "mentally challenged" or a "hypocrite", and the fact that you are unable to read and comprehend my argument says more about your own mental capacity than it does mine.

you basically said it's hypocritical of Fox to produce faith films b/c they has previously produced Amos and Andy

No, I didn't say that and your habit of throwing up straw men further illustrates your inability to address my argument, rather than what you wish my argument was. I see perfectly my assertion, it is you who cannot see.

My point is, and has always been that Christians are portrayed primarily in large films as either morons, psychos or hypocrites. I gave examples, because that is what we were doing and then suddenly you decide our argument is about studio departments. I countered and said that one faith division an industry does not make.

You made the argument that there has never been an "Anti-Christian" studio and I illustrated that just because there is no specific studio making "anti" films does not make they aren't MAKING them. Lord, man... you started this line of discussion and then you become angry and abusive because, in my opinion, you have no argument. Perhaps you are used to people simply acquiescing to you and don't know how to handle being challenged, I don't know, but I do know that you are unable to have a healthy debate without losing your temper, name-calling and basically throwing a temper tantrum like some three-year-old.

You wrote:

Fox also has a new division called Fox Faith which specifically develops and produces films promoting religion, faith, etc.

No one has a division producing films called Anti-Faith films. Or Pro-Evil Hillbilly Studios


Now, what can this mean? Clearly it means to indicate that since Fox has a "faith" division they are incapable of making films that deride Christians. How absurd. The Amos and Andy show was mentioned and I remarked how this racist work was made despite the fact that the studio did not have a "Anti-Black" division. Why is it you are incapable of following this line of discussion when — in fact — you led us down this road?

Clearly I have "subtext to [my] debate", it is just that your comment was shown to be both wrong and silly, whereupon you got mad and lost your cool.

Lastly, your example of It's a Wonderful Life shows how you are clueless as to the crux of our discussion, which does not portray Christians in a bad light. There are no moronic, psychotic or hypocritical Christians in that film (certainly none portrayed). However, in The Mist, for example there is a Christian portrayed that is moronic, hypocritical, more than a bit psychotic and a bigot. The people with a faith in God are the bad guys and those without are smart, resourceful and loving. Now, did Fox need an "Anti-Faith" division to make this film? No. Dimension Films was able to make this film without any "Anti-Faith" division, illustrating that a studio does not need an "Anti-Faith" division to make a film that portrays Christians in a bad light.

As to your comment about Fox having a Fox Faith division, this is simply economics. They know that there is a market for "faith based" films and pursue that, but the fact that they have this division does not preclude them from making films (in other divisions) that portray Christians in a bad light.

Anyway, our discussion here was about how Christians are portrayed as either psychos, morons, bigots or backwards, judgmental prudes MUCH more often than they are portrayed in a positive light. I'm not going to stop going to films and this phenomenon isn't somehow causing me to freak out and cry in my soup. We are simply discussing this trend. If you cannot do this without losing your temper and name-calling then perhaps it would be best for you to avoid this thread, because all you are accomplishing is making yourself look immature and incapable of engaging in an adult discussion.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Your argument is that there is a massive Hollywood conspiracy aimed at making Christians look bad in films

No, that is *not* my argument. Once again you have thrown up straw men and argued with yourself. I have *never* suggested there is any "conspiracy" in Hollywood, that is absurd. Whew. For the umpteenth time here is what I asserted: I believe that there is a tendency with filmmakers to show Christians as psychos, morons or bigots or backwards, judgmental prudes. Stay on POINT! We're not talking about some ridiculous "conspiracy".

Prove your point, beyond a reasonable doubt, that there is this anti-Christian conspiracy, and I will retract my comments and apologize.


No, I will not prove your point. That is your point, not mine. This isn't a court of law and I'm not compelled to prove anything to you. You either accept my opinion as correct or you don't, but judging from our "discussion" so far I think that you retracting any comments and apologizing is highly* unlikely.

Note your blatant contradiction:

But you take everything so literally (hence the no subtext line)... Of course there isn't an "Anti-black" or "anti-whatever" studio... the line about the "anti" studios was a joke


and then a few lines later you say:

But conversely there is no division that is specifically looking to produce films that make Christians look bad. It just doesn't exist.


Haha, you mock me taking your suggestion that there isn't an "anti-Christian" studio literally and then turn around and point out that there is no literal "anti-whatever" studio! Amazing. You can't even argue with yourself effectively.

That doesn't sound like a "joke" to me. It is quite apparent, Joe, that you are incredibly disingenuous. You spin your own comments and arguments, incessantly backpedaling and being patently untruthful.

But there isn't a mandate from the top


Who said there was? Again, you are arguing with yourself (poorly).

Also... Amos n Andy was a different time period. I believe Segregation was still legal when the show aired (I could be wrong), but you missed my point. You stated, way back, to list films in the last 25 years. Amos n Andy wasn't a film and it was much longer than 25 years ago.


Sigh... I didn't MENTION Amos and Andy! Someone ELSE did! Good lord, man, why is it that you can't understand that? I've now pointed out two times that it was not my example (plus, you can see this fact for yourself). I simply remarked how this was a good example of how a studio doesn't have an "anti-Black" studio, yet they can still put out a racist film. Why? Because of this remark you made:

No one has a division producing films called Anti-Faith films. Or Pro-Evil Hillbilly Studios.


Who said this? YOU did. Not me. I merely pointed out that despite the fact that there is no "Anti-Faith" division (as you suggested), studios are still capable of making films that portray Christians negatively. This is so simple.

Just as a story about an inner city gang having a Hillbilly as it's lead character would be weird. Make sense?


No. I understand what you are saying, but what does that have to do with our discussion. We aren't talking about who or what is portrayed, but how.

It would be like Aliens saying that INDEPENDENCE DAY makes them look bad. But the film is about an alien invasion.


We're not talking about imaginary creatures, we're talking about the portrayal of people, people of a certain faith... fictional characters based on real people, not monsters from outer space.

The old studio system is gone. Producers bring scripts to the studio after they have been developed. And producers come from all over the world. And the studio will green light based on whether or not they think it will make money. More films are produced independently than at the studios now a days. About 1/4 of the films the studios release (maybe even more) are bought after the film is made. They have little to do with the final cut.


And yet, Fox has a Fox Faith division (haha). Anyway, what we are talking about is how there is a tendency among filmmakers (in the U.S. particularly) of portraying Christians in a bad light. I'm not talking about some all-powerful studio(s), producers or goldfish, I'm talking about filmmakers. Hello? You just cannot stay on point.

So many people outside Hollywood like to lump everyone here together.


I'm not "lumping" anyone, I'm simply observing, commenting on and giving examples of the tendency of filmmakers to portray Christians in a bad light. It is you who is talking about Hollywood, divisions and studios, not me.

And your list is still in major doubt.

Your list was, I'm sorry, laughable.


Haha, well which is it? Is it merely in doubt or "laughable"(or is it a combo act)? The only thing "laughable" was the way you tried (in vain) to discount my long and convincing list.

I listed a dozen or so films that show people of faith in a positive light, that were heroes.


No, you made a list that included very few "Christians" and basically proved nothing. Sorry.

The spirit of your argument was that peple of faith are always shown in a poor light. I submitted a list that while not all Chrsitian - defintiely showed faith being celebrated. But you choose to nit-pick and be over-the-top literal, you are missing your own point.


No, I'm not missing anything except the logic and purpose in your argument (because there is none there). My argument was that filmmakers have a tendency to portray Christians in a bad light; as either psychos, morons, bigots or backwards, judgmental prudes. I offered a long, solid list of films that have portrayed Christians as either psychos, morons or bigots or backwards, judgmental prudes. Now, does this mean there is some "conspiracy" in Hollywood? NO. Does this mean that a few people in Hollywood are controlling things and out to portray Christians in a bad light? NO. Instead it is just as I said, indicative of a tendency of filmmakers to portray Christian in a negative light. The few paltry examples you provided were either not moderate to big films or they didn't have any Christians in them. You might call this "nit-picking", but since we're talking about filmmakers portraying Christians in a bad light, it just stands to reason that you'd need to mention films with Christian characters.

Again, to say that The Blues Brothers is anti-religious because they refer to the nun as a penguin is ludicrous.


Yes, it is. Who suggested that it is "anti-religious"? Not me. What I did say was that The Blues Brothers is an example of a film that portrays Christians as judgmental prudes (the nun) and (quite laughable) psychos (Jake and Elwood) and generally religious freaks (the people in the church dancing, doing acrobatics, etc). This is an example of a film that does portray Christians in some negative ways, but clearly it is not vindictive. And many of the films that portray Christians in a bad light *aren't* vindictive, but that doesn't change the fact that often they portray Christians as either psychos, morons, bigots or backwards, judgmental prudes.

And the spirit of the Passion of the Christ was to show the lengths of which Jesus went to die for us humans. A full on celebration of the Christian faith, but according to you it doesn't count because he's Jewish. Does that make any logical sense?


I never said that it wasn't a film that was positive about Jesus, I said that it is not an example of a film that portrays *Christians* in a positive light. What we were talking about is how filmmakers portray Christians in a bad light, not Christ. We're discussing the overall tendency to show Christians in an unfavorable manner.

Call it name calling if you want. That's just how it is.


Uh, I don't "call it" name calling, what you did *is* name-calling... a few examples:

Your point would have more merit if you weren't insane.
You are hypocritical and close minded.
Are you mentally challeneged? Do you know you are a hypocrite?


Looks like name-calling to me... "that's just how it is".

Good luck and I am out of here. Last post on topic.

I think that is a wise decision, as you are obviously incapable of either providing compelling evidence of your assertion or reading and understanding mine.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Kinda late, but I can do it! With only horror movies! Lookie!

1) THE EXORCIST (SERIES)
Rated #1 horror movie of all time by Top 10 lists everywhere. It's about a pair of Catholic priests working to save a child from the Devil. *Spoilers* Father Karras even risks eternal damnation by taking the demon into his own body in order to save Regan. It doesn't really get much more Christian than that.

2) DRACULA (MULTIPLE FILMS)
A classic horror story in which the faithful are protected by God and Christian relics (Crucifixes, Bibles, Holy Water, etc.) against the forces of darkness, also known as Dracula (meaning "Son of the Devil").

3) CONSTANTINE
A Catholic man, trying to save his soul from eternal damnation, battles demons in the name of God. *Spoilers!* He's also willing to sacrifice his soul in order to rescue the soul of a good Catholic woman who was tricked into committing suicide by the Devil himself. What a good Christian! :D

4) THE AMITYVILLE HORROR
Okay, so the priest doesn't actually save the day, but he tries damn hard. Damn hard, and without being a bigot, hypocrite, prude, psycho, etc.

5) THE OMEGA MAN / I AM LEGEND
*Spoilers!* At the end of The Omega Man, Robert Neville lies dead in a fountain with his arms spread in a Christ-like fashion. The fountain is running red with his blood, which is the cure for the infected. The symbolic connection to Neville being a Christ-like savior isn't a big stretch, ultimately giving the movie strong Christian overtones.

*Spoilers!* In I Am Legend, Anna acts as an angelic figure, restoring Neville's faith in himself. She delivers the cure to the survivor's colony, which she was trying to find based on faith alone. She was a good Christian!

6) VAN HELSING
A man raised by the Catholic church battles various evils, including Dracula (see above) in the name of God. Also, in an underdeveloped (but present) subplot, he's revealed as the archangel Gabriel, fighting a continuing battle against the ultimate evil.

7) THE OMEN (SERIES)
The Antichrist is repelled by the power of God. Sure, he survives two movies, but God wins in the end. 'Tis a cheesy victory, but a victory nonetheless.

8) THE REAPING
A Christian woman who has lost her faith in God has it restored after watching *Spoilers* an entire town of crazy, evil non-Christian cultists get smote by God and his Biblical plagues, including fiery rain from the sky. In addition, she's guided by a young girl acting as a messenger of God (i.e. an angel).

9) ONE MISSED CALL
True, Taylor/Natsumi is killed by the ghost while in a church during an exorcism, BUT these people of "faith" are clearly frauds. Taylor/Natsumi (we'll focus on Taylor, since she's the Christian of the two) agreed to an exorcism because she truly believed it would save her. It isn't her fault that the televangelist was a fake.

10) WIND CHILL
A group of Catholic priests aid travelers on the road who are being victimized by a corrupt sheriff. *Spoilers!* When the sheriff finds himself pinned beneath a burning car, they are fully ready to help him too, despite his sins. Then, however, they decide to leave him, for the good of future travelers who would have also been murdered. But, like good priests, they still feel bad about it. On another note, their ghosts continue to watch over the site and protect travelers stranded on the road. Kinda creepy looking, but good guys overall.

*OOH, FANCY BONUS MOVIE!*
11) FRANKENSTEIN (MULTIPLE MOVIES)
Not listed above because there's no blatant references to Christianity, but the overtones are pretty undeniable. Frankenstein learns the hard way that challenging God results in horrible, horrible things happening to everybody you've ever loved. It's not specifically about portraying Christians positively, but it's definitely a story driven by the idea that faith in God is the right thing to have.

I'd also like to point out that, in almost every slasher movie ever made, ever, since the dawn of slasher movies, it is the individual with good, Christian values that survives. They're pure of mind and body, and they have a strong set of morals. It's the characters who stray from this path, indulging in the Seven Deadly Sins (particularly Lust, Pride, Gluttony, and Envy) who are offed in various grisly ways. Symbolically, it could be viewed as punishment for their sins. And the girl with the good Christian morals? She's the one who banishes the unstoppable evil (see: slasher villain). So there might be a little bit of Wrath there, but she did just lose all of her friends, and possibly her entire family . . . it's understandable.

On another note . . .
Silent Hill has no Christians in it. The Order's faith is modeled after the Catholic church, but there are no Christians present. I'm just sayin', if Bladerunner gets Silent Hill, then Claudia gets Jesus movies. But that's not my business, I'm just here to list ten movies and split.

Later, dudes!

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[deleted]

Thanks, Claudia. : )

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Claudia, try to refrain from trolling behavior like that. Assuming ill will and taunting is just stupid. Grow up.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

I am going to respond (I've been busy and haven't had time to give it the time it deserves) and if you wanted a response why didn't you say that instead of taunting me? That is something grade-school children do to elicit a response.

I didn't attack you, I simply pointed out the absurdity of your comment.

YOU should have left it alone, between me and the poster (as opposed to daring me like some child).


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Nice. Well done. I'll be shocked if you get a reply from bladerunner

What do you call that?

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Don't feign ignorance with me, Claudia!

Nice. Well done. I'll be shocked if you get a reply from bladerunner.

That is baiting, any child knows that. Quit pretending where your "head is at".

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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1. The Exorcist. In this film God allows a demon to possess an innocent, little girl and priests are all but powerless to do anything. It is only the curse-ridden, violent attack and challenge from the priest and subsequent suicide that saves the day. The priest questions the existence of God, and basically no strong, believing people are seen in the film (even the old priest is simply a tired burn-out).

2. Dracula - Dracula, a man who rejects God and mocks him, has incredible power and no consequences for his actions. The people that fight Dracula often have little or no faith, Dracula even taunts them about this often. Christ isn't a figure of strength and redemption, he is simply a symbol that Dracula recedes from. In modern movies (Interview With a Vampire, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Salem's Lot) the crucifix has little or no power whatsoever.

3. Constantine is possibly one of the worst films for Christianity in a long, long time. God is seen as some hard, unforgiving, angry, aloof figure that seemingly has no loving connection to man. Nothing of God's grace is seen in the movie, the only redemption come from *man's* actions, after he has paid for his sins. God is also weak and uninvolved. Angels and demons go around wreaking havoc on the earth and God is clueless and uninvolved.

4. The Amityville Horror - In this movie God is totally and completely absent. Satan, the ghosts, whatever are seen as all-powerful, doing whatever they want to a weak and powerless ambassador of God, the priest.

5. The Omega Man/I Am Legend - God again is absent in a world gone mad. God basically has no interest or power in the lives of the people involved. Salvation comes from man.

6. Van Helsing - A weak and hedonistic man battles the world's evil "superheros" but man's power, not God's. No where is the power of God used to do battle, it is all man for man's glory.

7. The Omen - After two movies (and a half) of Satan whipping ass, a licentious woman defeats the Anti-Christ after having SEX with him. Total distortion and perversion of the Biblical story. In the last movie, Jesus is reborn on earth (as a tiny, weak infant) completely at odds with the Biblical account where Jesus returns as a lion, defeating the Anti-Christ in a battle where the blood flows as high as a horse's bridle.

8. The Reaping - After the sacrifice and redemptive work of Jesus Christ, God decides to reap the horror of the events precipitating the Exodus for no apparent reason (other than paying back cultists). God is basically an angry judge disconnected from the graceful God He is.

9. One Missed Call - The "spiritual" people seek to exorcise for TV ratings (they are frauds), and are completely and totally helpless against the evil they face. The one semi-spiritual person is completely let down by God and God's "representatives".

10. Wind Chill - An evil ghost continues to prey on and kill the living. God has no power over the dead, unlike the Bible which says that it is appointed once to a man to die, and then the judgment. God is absent and allows ghosts to wreak havoc on the living.

Oooo, bonus movie that is totally not a good example!

11. Frankenstein - Man is able to bring a man back from the dead, the power over life is no longer in the hands of God, making Jesus' resurrection from the dead meaningless.

Silent Hill - Judgmental, hateful, vicious, cultists (calling on God) do horrific and terrible things in the name of God. God is nowhere to be found, evil runs rampant in the spiritual realm.

Great list!

Later, dud!


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Hmmmmm... what was that about nothing to do with me... "complimenting another poster"? How is it that you are responding to a rebuttal to his post?

You are overwhelmed by my post, that's ok. Take your time (it'll take a lot to spin that).

Life is too short, give it up, you're fighting an uphill battle, Claudia. You're never going to spin this into gold... you have a nice name though.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

You taunted me to respond, which I was already doing. It was a response to someone else, so it makes total sense I'd link the two. Sorry, big sale.

Nevermore did not "do that". I showed clearly that he failed, but this is his fight, why are you fighting his fight? Clearly you have a problem with managing anger and your tongue. The only "sour grapes" is the vitriol that emanates from your mouth.

1. Children are clearly under God's protection, he does not allow little children to be demon-possessed. Besides that foul garbage, there are NO redeeming Christian people in The Exorcist. In the film, the priests are POWERLESS. The demons taunt and toy with them with vastly superior power. It is only the violent, cursing, challenge of the priest that gets the demon out of the child, and then his suicide. None of that is what the priest should have done. The demon won and made the priests look like ineffectual fools.

Your rebuttal is weak and wrong.

2. Dracula is not always the "bad guy" of films, in Interview With a Vampire, Louis is clearly a "good guy", the protagonist, the hero of the film. In most vampire flicks, Dracula is the hero, or a flawed hero. He is far more powerful than those around him and it is not men of God who defeat him, but usually licentious, violent people who prevail (if they prevail at all, in Interview With the Vampire there isn't even anyone to oppose them, and their lifestyle is something to be admired by others). In Queen of the Damned, vampirism is something to be pursued, it is glamorous and glorious. In the end, the film's protagonist chooses to be a vampire and wanders off happily into the moonlight.

Life is too short, and you are "done" because you have no compelling argument. For once you are right, you are "done", I hope you'll realize that and admit your failure.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Now you're just nitpicking and making a fool of yourself. Louis is a VAMPIRE, get a grip. We're talking about vampires, more importantly we're talking about MODERN MOVIES! This guy had to reach into the distant past of cinema to come up with examples. Obviously I'm not talking about 1940, 50 and 60 here! I'm talking about NOW. Good lord.

The Exorcist, just saying the words "the power of Christ compels you" does not a bright portrayal of believers make. I didn't say that "God doesn't let anything happen to children". I said, God does not allow children to be DEMON POSSESSED! Do you know how ignorant you sound totally misinterpreting my comments? Hint? A lot!

Exactly how were the Priests ineffectual?

That is by far the most absurd question/comment you've ever made. How were they ineffectual?!?!!? HAHA! One priest DIED, neither of them had ANY impact to drive out the demons and ONLY until the one priest *invited* the demon inside him did the demon come out and then he KILLED himself! BOTH PRIESTS DIED just to drive them out! You call that EFFECTIVE?! LOL!

I know *exactly* what I'm talking about, you simply don't like what I say and what it means. Now you've resorted to calling me a "paranoid loon" for pointing out the very behavior you are exhibiting NOW.

How do I justify my equating Dracula with vampires? Hmmmm... let see... Dracula is a vampire, wow, you're right... that was one hell of a stretch! How about I also quote the OP's list?
2) DRACULA (MULTIPLE FILMS)
A classic horror story in which the faithful are protected by God and Christian relics (Crucifixes, Bibles, Holy Water, etc.) against the forces of darkness, also known as Dracula (meaning "Son of the Devil").

Note he said, "MULTIPLE FILMS" and speaks of "classic horror story", now how much of a stretch is it for me to include other vampire films? Not much. Sheesh.

Lastly, God doesn't get Satan to "agree" to things, God tells him how it is. In Job, Satan has to come to God to do ANYTHING to Job. Each and every time Satan wants to remove Job's "hedges", he has to ask God first. This is a clear indication that Satan has only certain powers, and is greatly limited in how he may attack believers.

God does not allow certain things, for example He does not allow Satan to possess believers (because they are filled with the Holy Spirit). In case you didn't know it, there are many things that God does not allow Satan to do, but then you'd have to read the Bible to know that.

There is a big reason why God would not allow a demon to possess a child:

Children are "innocent" until the age of accountability (Ezekiel 28:15), they have original sin, but because of the redeeming work of Christ they are blameless and therefore not "an empty house" that a demon could possess. Demons only possess those people who are "empty houses", where there is no spirit of God dwelling within them. Children are "God's own" and He dwells within them. Christ refers to them several times as examples of how we should believe. They, therefore, are not valid targets.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

Spin it the way you want, Dracula is a vampire, it's not much of a stretch to lump all vampire films together. No, not all vampires are Dracula, but all Draculas are VAMPIRES! Good lord, get over it!

No, the priests were not effective. Want to know what "effective" is? Both priests go in, spend about 15 minutes, the demon is gone, the person is fine, both priests walk out happy and healthy, THAT is effective, not both men DYING! Not one priest *cursing at* and *beating* the young girl and offering the demon to come into him, then committing SUICIDE (one of the Catholic "unforgivable sins"!) The only person who has "lost it" is you, trying to convince someone that what happened to the priests in The Exorcist was "effective"! Haha.

You want a "do and don't list"? Fine, here is a taste of "do's" and "don'ts" where God and Satan are concerned:

"Don't" number one, Satan is told he cannot harm Job - Job 1:12:

"The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."

"Don't" number two, Satan is told he cannot take Job's life - Job 2:6:
"The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

"Do" number one, do this and Satan will flee from you - James 4:7:
"Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

"Do" number two, do this and Satan can no longer controls you - Acts 26:18
"...to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me."

"Do" number three, Satan is allowed to blind unbelievers - 2 Corinthians 4:4:
"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

"Do: number four: following Christ means that Satan no longer has power over you - Romans 6:7:
"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."

There are a few "Do's and Don'ts" for you...

As far as the list this man gave, I'm still waiting for movies that show Christians in a "good light".

By the way, from the very beginning I was speaking of the "disparity" in films, how there was a huge lopsided overload of films negative to Christians versus any that showed them in a good light, consider my comments:

Name for me, five big or even moderate successful films, in the last 25 years that portray *Christians* in a good light. Five. Good luck.

Then, name for me as many as you can that show Christians as psychos, hateful zealots, serial killers, bigots, what-have-you. Hope your fingers don't get tired.

There is no way you can compare the disparity there, no way.


Hmmmm... lets see... when was the Exorcist made? 1973. Now how many years ago is that? Well... lets count... 1973 to 2008... that's *35* YEARS AGO. Now, what was my challenge? Lets re-read it:
Name for me, five big or even moderate successful films, in the last 25 years that portray *Christians* in a good light. Five. Good luck.


The Exorcist from 35 years ago, does that meet the criteria? Simply counting shows not. Or do you want to name other Exorcist films in the "series"? Yeah, didn't think so.

I'm still waiting for films that show *Christians* in a good light, not ethereally spiritual people, *Christians*. If The Exorcist is your big example, I don't think anyone where could argue with me that you have failed miserably.

Take another look at his "list" and tell me that you are offering that as an example of "Christians being portrayed in a good light". If it is, then you've proved my point for me, because that list is the saddest thing I've ever read. If that is what we have to represent Christians as a good and positive force, then we are hurting badly.

What I said about children was directly from the Bible. Don't like it? Take it up with the Bible, but don't yammer on about my "retort".

This is now about the fourth time you've been "out" and "done", "life is too short", whatever. Either quit the empty threats and soldier on, or shut up with the "I'm done with it" nonsense.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Il admit now that i came onto this post because i was enjoying reading the arguements bladerunner has with people, and this one is a good one too.
a couple of things though,

first of all, you are right, there are more anti christian films then pro christian. but you knew that, but more importantly you know why.

because stereotypically to non christians, they are unreasonable, hateful (to anyone who does not embrace the lord) etc. so its so easy to creatre a anataganistic roll around them.

on the other hand its so hard to creatre a christian hero, because they dont typically use guns, and we know how you americans like your guns. apart from sci-fi films, the cross and holy water will not do much damage in a fight. but recruiting a angry mob of people like the evril christians do eg (The Mist) works a treat.

let me get onto the excorsist, blade you said that god allowed a young girl to be taking by demon makes it not a pro christian film. how can you have a plot if god does all the work. to be sycastic, for the film to be pro christian, A demon was gonna possess a girl but god comes along and says wwooooooaaaaaaaahhhhh, your not doing that ya filthy little devil thing, off ya go. and the preist says, cheers god, see ya later.

that would be a good film wouldnt it

but to end it with the original question, you are right there are more anti ones yes.

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[deleted]

Il admit now that i came onto this post because i was enjoying reading the arguements bladerunner has with people, and this one is a good one too.
a couple of things though,

Brilliant way to open your post, because pretty much whatever you say after that, you've got me with an open mind. That isn't meant to be condescending, it's just that I try to teach my sons that the best way to engage someone is to highlight a positive first, that way they know you aren't an enemy and this was a perfect example of how to do that, a good example for me too. Just thought I'd say that, as not much positive is often said in the forums. I hope you accept it as the compliment it is meant to be.

I pretty much agree with most of what you said, and I agree that it's easy to create negative Christian characters versus positive ones. But, I think it can be very easy to create a positive, Christian character. For example, in my opinion here is a great positive Christian character, the younger brother in Radio Inside. It was a nice little film, a bit quirky in the way it presents Jesus (as an actual character), but the younger brother loves Christ and is a good person (a very good person). I'm not looking for much, just a person who professes belief in Jesus in some way, doesn't have to be super overt, they don't have to beat you over the head with it. Just a person who is shown to be a Christian, being a good person, doing the right thing, loving people. The character can be flawed, no problem, but just show that Christ means something in their life, that loving Him has changed them for the better. I'd just like to see a person who calls Christ their Savior who treats their neighbor like a friend, acts in a moral way (without utter hypocrisy) cares about people, doesn't shove their religion down other people's throats.

Sure, I see your point about the Exorcist, but they just as easily could have used a girl of 16-18. Someone who isn't a child, but still very young.

I wasn't picking on The Exorcist at all, I personally think it's one of the best movies ever made. It was the other guy (and his cheerleader) that tried to make it out to be some great film in the portrayal of Christians, I just rebutted that assertion. It doesn't really show any Christians in a bad light, although the angst that the younger priest goes through is disheartening. It does tend to show a world where Satan is in complete control with God asleep at the wheel, but I think it was a VERY good film in that it got people to start thinking about the fact that the Devil is alive and well on planet earth. It was upsetting the way the younger priest resorted to violence, cursing and then suicide to get the demon out of the girl, but it was a very powerful denouement. I think the film sort of gave Satan way too much power, but people started thinking about spiritual matters and that was great.

Another film that did that was Gladiator. It doesn't have any Christians in it, but the story has a lot of parallels with Christ, same with The Matrix. In The Gladiator, he is subservient to (and completely loving of) the father. He doesn't seek his own glory, but sacrifices himself for the people. He fights for all the right reasons, keeps himself pure, resisting sinful temptations all around, and he leads and motivates others through his own example, rather than preaching to them. He is honorable and willing to die, not just to seek vengeance, but to make things right by serving the vision of the father to give the people their freedom (salvation). As he lay dying he makes sure this is done and then gives up his spirit... a lot of parallels to the story of Christ. It made a decent, honorable, self-sacrificing man very, very admirable and beautiful to watch.

A film doesn't have to have Christians in it to be a good film spiritually, or one that does a good job eliciting that thinking or debate. It would just be nice if there was less of an impetus to make Christians, country folk and what not out to be psychos, idiots, bigots, hypocrites and so forth. So many other religious practices have gotten a fair shake (and some not) it's time to lay off believers, or actually make a film that makes them look good (as most are).

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Wow.

Some people just need to learn to lay down and accept defeat. Seriously.

Nobody's denying that there are films that portray Christians in a negative light. There are. However, there do exist films that portray Christians in a positive light, and horror films at that.


Now:

- The Exorcist is the #1 horror movie of all time on practically every list ever made, no matter how old it is. The fact that the hero (and you can't be much more heroic than Father Karras is, seeing as he sacrifices his own life to save an innocent child) is not only Christian, but a priest, practically voids the entire argument on its own. It's The bloody Exorcist - horror genre gold.

- You JUST SAID The Exorcist doesn't portray Christians in a bad light. So WHY are you arguing that it does?

- Dracula is not every vampire ever written about, filmed, or portrayed in any other fictional media. Also, every vampire movie is not about Dracula. Louis is not Dracula. Lestat is not Dracula. Armand, Santiago, Claudia, and Madeleine are not Dracula. In Queen of the Damned, Akasha, Marius, Mael, Pandora, Khayman and every other vampire in the entire 101 minute runtime, are not Dracula, including any and all extras who may or may not have appeared in the background. Dracula is Dracula, and he usually appears in movies titled "Dracula". Don't mess around with my titles, and please get your vampires straight. There are many different types.

- Dracula's the bad guy. Just in case you didn't catch that part.

- You never said anything about God. If you want movies that portray God in a positive light, that's a whole other story. Christians are not God, and God, it's fairly safe to say, is not a churchgoing Christian.

- Constantine is a Christian man fighting demons. He's not God.

- Van Helsing is a Christian man fighting demons. He may nor may not have been an Archangel. Again, not God.

- Have you seen the end of The Omen III? Seriously? There's a big shining Jesus that comes down from the heavens, and then choirs begin to sing accompanying an inspirational Bible verse.

- Revelations hasn't happened yet. Maybe there won't be divine lions. Maybe Jesus will float down as a 50' glowing statue and shine on the Antichrist until he passes out. We can't know, and if we want to get into whether or not the Bible should be taken literally, that's another debate for a different website.

- God and Christians are different arguments. Just thought I should restate this so it sinks in.

- Did you see Frankenstein? Have you read it? The whole thing is about the extremely negative consequences that come with playing God. And just for the record, Victor wasn't trying to bring back the dead. He wanted to create life. He didn't want a zombie, he wanted new life. Like what God makes. See?

- The residents of Silent Hill still aren't Christians. They will never be Christians. The Order's God is not the Christian God. This is a good example of portraying faith in a negative light, not Christians. Again, if Silent Hill counts, so does Passion of the Christ. And if Silent Hill doesn't count, then neither does Gladiator, seeing as there are just as many Christians in the former as there are in the latter.

- And just in case we didn't get it: God and Christians are not the same thing. The first step to having an intelligent, effective debate is knowing what you're arguing. Again: Christians and God are not the same thing. Portraying Christians in a positive light does not necessarily require having to portray God in a positive light.

- I'm a chick. Just sayin'.

- Christians and God are not the same thing. You continuously flip-flop between movies negatively portraying faith, God, and Christians, and all you're doing is voiding out your own points.

- Christians and God are not the same thing. Christians and non-Christians are not the same thing. Arguing about negatively portraying Christians and negatively portraying faith, God, any part of the Bible, or anything else that isn't specifically Christian people, voids all of your arguments.

- "I'm still waiting for films that show *Christians* in a good light, not ethereally spiritual people, *Christians*."
Try some of the ones we've mentioned. :) God on the other hand, well, his portrayal might be a little iffy. Faith? Maybe. But Christians? They're in there, and they're good people.

Claudia, he's all yours. :)

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Claudia, using a sock puppet won't change the fact that I am right, you are wrong.

You've sunk to new lows using sock puppets. Sheesh.

Every argument of yours is a joke, Claudia (calling yourself NevermoreRaven won't change that).

The Exorcist is the #1 horror movie of all time on practically every list ever made, no matter how old it is.

So? It doesn't change the fact that it does NOT show Christians in a good light. Sorry. Give it up.

- You never said anything about God. If you want movies that portray God in a positive light, that's a whole other story. Christians are not God, and God, it's fairly safe to say, is not a churchgoing Christian.

Who said Christians were God? Good lord, wake up Claudia! Were talking about movies showing Christians in a good light, that would of course include subjects about GOD. Try to keep up.

- Dracula's the bad guy. Just in case you didn't catch that part.

Wrong. In many films Dracula is the anti-hero (if you don't know what that is, look it up). Consider the movie Dracula (1992), where Gary Oldman is shown to simply be a good man who became angry with God because hateful/thoughtless priests wouldn't give his wife a Christian burial and callously say she is "damned". He is romantic, beautiful (in most scenes) a man of integrity, and once *was* a devoted believer. If that is "the bad guy" to you, then you need to study film more.

Constantine is a Christian man fighting demons. He's not God.

Constantine is a smoking, cussing, licentious man who basically hates God who he sees as an angry, capricious deity that is sending him to Hell. If Constantine is your example of a "Christian in a good light", then you've already made my point for me.

Van Helsing is a Christian man fighting demons. He may nor may not have been an Archangel. Again, not God.

Van Helsing (in Van Helsing or Dracula (1992)) shows no sign of being a "Christian" in the way he acts, or in his faith.

Have you seen the end of The Omen III? Seriously? There's a big shining Jesus that comes down from the heavens, and then choirs begin to sing accompanying an inspirational Bible verse.

Hmmm... weren't you the one that just said that "God isn't a Christian" and "Christians aren't God"? Whoops, I think you just made my argument for me *again*. Thanks.

Revelations hasn't happened yet. Maybe there won't be divine lions. Maybe Jesus will float down as a 50' glowing statue and shine on the Antichrist until he passes out. We can't know, and if we want to get into whether or not the Bible should be taken literally, that's another debate for a different website.

Nice diatribe, what does that have to do with our debate?

Did you see Frankenstein? Have you read it? The whole thing is about the extremely negative consequences that come with playing God. And just for the record, Victor wasn't trying to bring back the dead. He wanted to create life. He didn't want a zombie, he wanted new life. Like what God makes. See?

Once again... Oops, what was that you were saying about "God and Christians are different arguments. Just thought I should restate this so it sinks in. " Haha, maybe you should restate it for *yourself* a few more times.

- The residents of Silent Hill still aren't Christians. They will never be Christians. The Order's God is not the Christian God. This is a good example of portraying faith in a negative light, not Christians. Again, if Silent Hill counts, so does Passion of the Christ. And if Silent Hill doesn't count, then neither does Gladiator, seeing as there are just as many Christians in the former as there are in the latter.

I have no idea what that means, and I'm sure no one except extraterrestrials do either. There are crosses on the floor, and she quotes from Revelations (in the NEW TESTAMENT). Er... how do you figure that "the residents of Silent Hill aren't Christians".

- And just in case we didn't get it: God and Christians are not the same thing. The first step to having an intelligent, effective debate is knowing what you're arguing. Again: Christians and God are not the same thing. Portraying Christians in a positive light does not necessarily require having to portray God in a positive light.

Since you have two or three times made the very same "error", I think you are lying to yourself. If you portray God in a bad light, you mock and blaspheme the very God Christians worship, so your argument is nonsense.

- I'm a chick. Just sayin'.

Yes, you are Claudia's sock puppet. It is very easy to establish that (or didn't you know that?)

Christians and God are not the same thing

Er... you had five different entries saying that, clearly you are a person who has run out of coherent arguments. Learn when to say when.

- "I'm still waiting for films that show *Christians* in a good light, not ethereally spiritual people, *Christians*."
Try some of the ones we've mentioned. :) God on the other hand, well, his portrayal might be a little iffy. Faith? Maybe. But Christians? They're in there, and they're good people.

Wrong again. You have failed utterly, and I've showed that, and you've now resorted to using sock puppets to pat yourself on the back (I'm not fooled, indeed neither is anyone who knows how to establish that). You're now exposed and defeated, if you are smart you'll simply hush now and slink away in humiliation.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

I *know* you are her. One of these days you learn how to know, Claudia.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

No, I'm someone who knows how to identify sock puppets.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

[deleted]

The same IP? Trace characteristics?

This went from comical to scary. I am not Nevermore, but it doesn't seem like 1) you believe that or 2) ever stop trying to prove that. I now fear the lengths to which you will go to prove this paranoia. If you are tracing IP's, what's next? I do not need an online predator.

I have contacted IMDB. Reported this. I have also added you to my ignore list. Please do not try to contact me again.

It's one thing to argue over movies and stars and messages in films, but once you cross the line and start trying to "find" people online... that's where it needs to stop.

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What is this, Alice In Wonderland? What kind of mind-altering drugs are you on? Are you some kindergartner? I tell you that I've contacted IMDB to establish that you are using sock puppets and the next day you claim you contacted IMDB too?! What fantasy land do you live in? Do all the "reporting" you want, you got caught.

I'm not a "predator", what kind of psycho are you? I am simply someone who knows how to catch goofs like you who use sock puppets.

I have NEVER tried to "contact" you, pretending that I have won't make it so and frankly it is frightening that you would suggest that. I think you have some serious mental issues. There are treatment regimens for paranoia now, I suggest you pursue that treatment as you have started creating scenarios where I am trying to "find" you "online". Don't flatter yourself, I never tried to "find" you anywhere, as a matter-of-fact I wish I'd never seen you HERE. You must be desperately lonely and incredibly needy to be fantasizing that I am "finding" you online and "contacting" you! Whew... you are sick... seek help now.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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I thought there were some positive Christians in A Walk to Remember---I didn't see it but isn't the main character a nice Christian girl? I don't watch a lot of movies with that theme, really, but even amongst the ones I do watch, I can think of some. Of course, my idea of positive and your idea of positive might be different.

Judith Ivey's character in Rose Red was a very nice lady who held true to her faith. Ummmm...Jane Eyre, anyone? To me, Jane Eyre (and my friend, Kat) are the two reasons I learned to not be too judgmental about religious folk). And honestly, I felt there were some in Saved!, there were also just some hypocritical and confused people, as well. I don't think Ned Flanders is as negative a character as he used to be. He's a good person on The Simpsons, though they poke fun at him, I think it is with love. Rosemary in Rosemary's baby is Catholic and feels guilty about drifting away from her faith. She's not a negative character, though.

I have never seen The Best Christmas Pagent ever, but the book doesn't portray Christianity negatively, so I assume the movie does not either. I didn't think the man in the original Wicker Man was necessarily negative. He was a uptight and all, but he had a firm sense of justice and right and wrong, and risked everything to save a little girl. And, though he comes off as close minded towards the happy beautiful pagans, he did turn out to be right about them. And, I find the ending, where he holds true to his faith and doesn't ever relent quite tragic and beautiful. The family in While You Were Sleeping is Catholic and they aren't portrayed as hillbillies or evil or anything. I guess, maybe, the Left Behind movie? I mean, to me, those people look crazy, and I know some Christians who hate them, but others who love that book/ film.

It IS hard to think of them...i think a lot of people--particularly artistic, creative types that have trouble with conformity--have had bad experiences with the status quo and this translates to the films they make. Also, in scary movies or thrillers, oftentimes archetypes of good--things people come to xpect as good--are flipped over and this topsy turvy use of the archetype makes people uneasy--makes them scared. This is why we have evil cops, evil dolls, evil puppets, scary little girls, etc.

If people want to see more Christians in films portrayed positively, then they should make their best efforts to be fair, open-minded people to help dispel this type of perception and they should support the christian filmakers that they know...

ETA: Love's Enduring Promise (?) and anything based on a Jane Austen book. Lizzie and Mr. Darcy are lovely.

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Thank you for responding in such a kind and serious manner. You have some very good examples, but remember my original challenge.

Name for me, five big or even moderate successful films, in the last 25 years that portray *Christians* in a good light. Five. Good luck.


As far as you saying:

If people want to see more Christians in films portrayed positively, then they should make their best efforts to be fair, open-minded people to help dispel this type of perception and they should support the christian filmakers that they know...

I would agree, to some extent. I get very angry when I see televangelists hawking our God for money. Certainly some Christian parents shove the Bible down their children's throats. However, many people see Christian doxology as prejudice and "close-minded", because it says that "no one may come to the Father except through me". If that is "close-minded" then there is no remedy. However, if we are talking about respecting people and their beliefs, then sure that is something that can be improved upon.

What bothers me is that many, many positive contributions by Christians are overlooked, and only the haughty, dogmatic members of the faith are portrayed.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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lol, true, those aren't exactly commercially successful blockbusters, huh?
Still, it's an interesting question...

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Yes, it is. I simply wanted to show that Christians are not very well represented in film. We're talking born-again believers here. Unfortunately, it digressed into something ugly, which was not my intention. Thank you for your well-thought out response and contribution.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[deleted]

It's a movie. Get over it.

Christianity is a cult anyway.

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Trucalling628 is a cult.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Ummm....that doesn't even make sense.

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Makes as much sense as your senseless post.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Hey, it's only my opinion! Like it or hate it. It's good to have religion but the people who go overboard freak me out.

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What would you consider "overboard"?


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Well for one, It really bothers me when people push their beliefs onto other people and that goes for any religion not just christianity. I had these people come to my door the other day reading me a passage out of the bible. Like I don't have better things to do than listen to that...I'm not a rude person so I listened and nodded my head but I really wanted to slam the door in their face. Crazy!

Another time I went over a friends house and her mother walking around the house carrying around her bible singing bible songs. Well....my friend turned out to be a complete psycho....so maybe the movies don't have it so wrong after all.

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You said you hate it when

people push their beliefs onto other people

Oh, you mean like saying...

Christianity is a cult.

Like that?

Ok. I appreciate the fact that you have been civil in discussing this, so lets show people that we can do this without being jerks (I'm mostly admonishing myself here).

Here's the deal on the "pushing beliefs" thing. If tons of cop cars pulled out in front of your house, and a bunch of Homeland Security people came in and told you that in three hours there was going to be a massive attack on the United States and they were entrusting you with alerting the entire neighborhood. They leave a manual with you detailing the truth and how to help people. Then they leave to the next area.

So, what do you do? Huh? Do you just grab your family, jump in the car and head to the bomb shelter? Or, do you go up and down the street and try to help people? That is *exactly* how many Christians feel. MOST Christians NEVER share their faith, for exactly the reason you mention. They don't want to be seen as "pushing" their beliefs on other people.

However, if you're a Christian and you firmly believe that unless a person accept Christ as their savior, they cannot be saved, AND you have been COMMANDED to share your faith by your GOD... what do you do? I mean, trust me, MOST Christians do not like evangelizing. I don't. But I do it sometimes because I completely and utterly believe that people who don't have Christ in their life are not only doomed after death, but their life on earth is utterly meaningless.

What you may see as arrogance is actually FAITH. How worthy a believer am I if I don't firmly believe in my faith? Would you respect a Christian more if he/she were vacillating? If they were like, "Uh... gee, I *think* Jesus is the savior"? What you see as pushing beliefs is actually LOVE! This is PURE LOVE of a believer, wanting you to have what he has... eternal life and a meaningful life with Christ.

I know, some Christians are total jerks. I don't like them either! Some are arrogant and haughty and rude, but understand sometimes why that happens. When you share your faith and you *constantly* get hammered, rejected, cursed at, hated, it can happen that people put up a wall of legalism, arrogance, judgmental behavior. They insulate themselves. If you were running up and down the block, trying to convince everyone that bombs were coming, with your manual in your hand from the Homeland Security folks, and people were laughing in your face, treating you like a jerk, and here you are trying to help them and they are not only not listening, but they are RIDICULING you! How would you feel?

Just for a few minutes, consider the facts that I have shared with you. Consider if you believed that you knew about something that would save people's lives and you had to share that. How would you feel? What would you do? Just think about it. Thanks.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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I'll have to check out that one with the Devil. Hang on a bit.

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You do that, and while you're at it ask him for your soul back. ;-)


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Ah, soul.

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You do have some soul, don't you brother? ;-)


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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That's for me to know, and for you to wonder about. Unlike some, I choose not to parade my beliefs and non-beliefs, and consider that a private matter.

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Oh really? Then why are you taunting in this forum? Obviously you're trying to stir something up.

Are you beliefs about world hunger private? What about helping the homeless?

You wrote in another forum:

Whenever you have a civil war that goes back that far in history and populations which are divided along religious lines there is bound to be an aspect which the fundies of whatever religion can exploit.


So, I think it's pretty clear you have a disdain for "fundies" of any religion. So much for keeping your "belief and non-beliefs" private. Looks pretty "public" to me.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Indeed. Perhaps I need to be more explicit. I consider that a belief in a religious system is personal and private, and not to be shoved down other peoples' throats as if were gospel. No pun intended.

You said in a previous post that as a believer you considered that you had a duty to evangelise "because I completely and utterly believe that people who don't have Christ in their life are not only doomed after death, but their life on earth is utterly meaningless."

That is complete arrogance, and the fact that you aver it is not arrogance does not make it so. It is arrogance, and it is pride. If you choose to have faith in the existence of something which cannot be proven I will not stand in your way. If you, even for a second, consider that that belief gives you the right to tell me *anything* about what I should or should not believe, you can get stuffed.

Once you start that kind of thing it's a slippery slope to fundamentalism, the belief that you can tell people less enlightened than you how they should behave. And yes, I have complete disdain, and utter contempt, for such people, whether they are Christian, Muslim, or any of the monotheistic religions.

The piece you quoted of mine was written on the 'Traitor' board. I have never in my life seen such a disgusting display of racial and other hatred based on religious beliefs. I do not consider such behaviour consistent with the ideals of any known religion so yes, I feel able to comment on them.

I have never, ever, tried to persuade other people that their private beliefs are wrong, whatever my personal feelings. I do not presume to have the ultimate knowledge that would be required for this and, in your turn, neither are you able to convince me that your beliefs are valid.

Does that help?

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That is complete arrogance, and the fact that you aver it is not arrogance does not make it so


How is that arrogance? This isn't about ME! Jesus existed LONG before I came into the picture, I am just obeying His commands.

I'm not "telling you what to believe and what not to believe"! I FULLY support your right to believe in anything you wish. I would DIE for you to have the right to believe in whatever you wish, or if you wish to believe in nothing.

I have NO desire to shove ANYTHING down your throat, and I think that practice is repugnant. However, spirited discussion, debate and so forth is fine, as long as all participating are doing do willingly.

Think about this....

Is it "arrogance" if it's true? Just consider for a moment that it is true. Jesus is the Christ, He is the savior of the world, that belief in Him is life everlasting... is it arrogant then? Ask yourself that.

Ask yourself this, if it is true that Jesus is God and He is is the Lord of all and He is commanding us to obey certain laws and to love each other fully, who are YOU to deny that? Doing so is the HEIGHT of arrogance! *You* telling God what to do! Think about that.

I don't know anything about the "Traitor" board, I just know what you said in public.


I have never, ever, tried to persuade other people that their private beliefs are wrong, whatever my personal feelings. I do not presume to have the ultimate knowledge that would be required for this and, in your turn, neither are you able to convince me that your beliefs are valid.


You are telling me that my beliefs are "arrogant"... I'd say that is a form of persuasion that isn't very subtle.

PS Thanks for being friendly and decent in your remarks to me, I appreciate that a lot. :-)


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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But I didn't say that your beliefs are arrogant. It's always this switch-and-bait technique - you are attempting to put words into my mouth so you can disagree with them.

What is true is that I *respect* the beliefs of other people - just as long as they don't try to use them in the way that you do, which is casuistry.

You say to me 'If' too many times. "if it is true that Jesus is God and He is is the Lord of all...". If, if, if. And you then proceed as if the answer is 'yes' instead of 'no' or 'perhaps'. And where does that get us? It gets us to "*You* telling God what to do!"

How does that work? If I don't believe in a god, then how can I be accused of telling him what to do?

Let me sum up: I did *not* say that your beliefs are arrogant. I said that it is your attitude that is arrogant, and prideful. You assume, with no evidence for your beliefs, that you have the right to tell others so that they may be saved. Saved from what? The eternal fires of damnation? I don't believe in that.

The Hindus have thousands of gods. They probably have a god for brushing one's teeth uniformly on a Thursday. I'd much rather that than your alternative.

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I think it's jumping through hoops to say that ones "attitude and beliefs are arrogant and prideful", and yet not be saying that the *person* is arrogant and prideful, but whatever you say.

What I asked you to do is this, for a moment assume the fact that what I said was true, then ask yourself if you think it is "arrogant and prideful".

You assume, with no evidence for your beliefs, that you have the right to tell others so that they may be saved.


Wrong. Sorry, but that is very wrong. I have PLENTY of "evidence". I have the Bible, I have a book that is perfectly cohesive that was written by 40 men of diverse backgrounds over the course of 1500 years... inspired by God, containing thousands of prophesies that came true, the story of God's relationship with man and God's propitiation for our sins. And that is not all, I have the writings of many historians that corroborate the existence (and ministry) of Jesus, and I have many other reasons for believing.

I understand quite clearly that you "don't believe in that", and I'm not trying to change that. Do you hear that? I am NOT trying to change what you believe in, I am trying to get you to see things from MY point of view.

So, once again, I ask you to consider if what I said was true, would you still think it was arrogant and prideful for me to share this truth with other people? Just consider for a moment that what I am saying is right... if it is, then what I'm doing is the *opposite* of arrogant and prideful, it is in fact extremely loving and humble.

Think about it.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Your Bible is not evidence. It is a collection of the writings of a miscellany of individuals which has been revised, edited and added to over the centuries, and has been used more to control the illiterate and superstitiously credulous than to actually inform and educate.

The existence of a character that we have come to know as Jesus is not in doubt, although there are doubts as to his 'ministry'.

You may have - you obviously DO have - sufficient evidence to support your beliefs. I trust you will excuse the rest of the world who, in order to believe, have to employ 'the willing suspension of disbelief'.

If you choose to believe in a god, that's fine with me. In fact, it's none of my business, so it would be patronising for me to say 'it's fine with me'. But I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

Where your right to believe conflicts with my right to disbelieve is in the presumption of many believers who consider that they have a right to 'educate' the rest of us. I find that insupportable. It certainly shows me no evidence of anything that I could call humility.

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Your Bible is not evidence. It is a collection of the writings of a miscellany of individuals which has been revised, edited and added to over the centuries, and has been used more to control the illiterate and superstitiously credulous than to actually inform and educate.


I'm sorry, that is simply incorrect. The Dead Sea Scrolls, and fragments like P52, not to mention the literally thousands of extant documents quoting scripture from the first century prove that the Bible has remain unchanged (and unperverted) since the beginning. I encourage you to take a look at some of the textual criticism scholarly journals and books that show just how remarkable the preservation of the Bible is, it is nothing short of amazing. As a matter-of-fact there is an embarrassment of riches vis-a-vis the Bible.


The existence of a character that we have come to know as Jesus is not in doubt, although there are doubts as to his 'ministry'.


By whom? Please make your case clear here.

You may have - you obviously DO have - sufficient evidence to support your beliefs. I trust you will excuse the rest of the world who, in order to believe, have to employ 'the willing suspension of disbelief'.


No ONE, NO ONE "employ[s] the willing suspension of disbelief" more than I. I never let an opportunity go by to question my beliefs, in fact I seek them OUT. I fully and completely support your questioning and I firmly believe (in fact, I *know*) that the gospel of Jesus Christ can stand up under *any* scrutiny. Christian apologetics is a field that is constantly seeking out avenues of disbelief and the resulting answer to those questions.

This isn't about evidence to support *my* beliefs, this is evidence to support *anyone's* disbelief. If you were to read the new text, "Reinventing Jesus" and compare it to the poorly researched and written "God Delusion" you would see the massive dichotomy between the scholarship between these two sources. The evidence for Christ is overwhelming and powerful, and it is not about some subjective spin I do to satisfy myself. It is about the very real and palpable evidence, logic and proofs that are available to support the cause of CHRIST, not *my* cause or my belief "support".

If you choose to believe in a god, that's fine with me. In fact, it's none of my business, so it would be patronising for me to say 'it's fine with me'. But I hope you understand what I'm getting at.


Sure, I totally understand, and I give you the benefit of the doubt on remarks like this, because you have proven yourself to be respectful, friendly and willing to discuss all of this in a way that is both enjoyable and educational.

Where your right to believe conflicts with my right to disbelieve is in the presumption of many believers who consider that they have a right to 'educate' the rest of us. I find that insupportable. It certainly shows me no evidence of anything that I could call humility.


I don't think you could call our discussion here an attempt by me to "educate you". In fact, I would say that it is most instructive for you to educate me as to your beliefs and the mindset of a certain type of seeker, which I greatly appreciate. I'm not out to "educate" you, I'm am simply out to give you another point-of-view, but more importantly illustrate that my goal isn't some arrogant pontification, but a desire to be understood and a desire for you to understand *why* I think the way I do, why I feel the desire to discuss this with others, and why my motivation isn't about arrogance but rather an intense feeling of obligation and love to my fellow man.

If nothing, *nothing* else is heard here, please hear that... my motivation to talk about this, to share this is NOT because I arrogantly believe I am "right", but because I completely and utterly believe that it is my duty—in love—to share this with anyone *willing* to discuss it. However, I have NO desire to "ram" anything down anyone's throat! This is totally about sharing (with a *willing to listen* audience) the truth about Jesus and his saving work on the cross. My goal isn't to change anyone's mind, but rather to simply provide the facts and let that person decide for themselves. I can't be more adamant about this fact: I *cannot* change *anyone's* mind! Never, ever, never. Only God can do that, and if He does do that and a person embraces that truth, how could I possibly abhor that? Deny that? Do you see what I mean?

I share my beliefs with respect for the other person's beliefs and only with their consent to the discussion. As I said, my goal is not to change anyone's mind, but to simply share the truth and let them decide. And, I am in it to hear, understand and be educated as WELL! I try to do all that in humility, if I fail then I gladly listen to any rebuke and constantly try to modify my actions to remain kind, friendly, humble and constantly listening rather than formulating responses.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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I truly believe this world and everything we know was created by science. I don't believe in god. I don't believe in hell. I believe in fact. I sure as heck don't think I need "saving" because of this. If "god" condems people to eternal damnation for not believing in him then he is kind of a dick, isn't he?

I'm sorry, I know some people have to believe in a higher power because it somehow makes them feel better but to me the whole god thing is as silly as the tooth fairy. Your referencing the bible to back up your points is not a very good arguement. The bible isn't fact. It is based upon beliefs.
In fact, the definition of belief is this:

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

So TO YOU it might be true but this doesn't mean that it is in fact true.

And for you to say that your trying to save non-believers is an insult and it IS pushing your beliefs on others! If you want to believe that us non believers are so doomend then go ahead and believe it. Believe it all you want, Just don't come knocking on my door with a bible in hand.

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If "god" condems people to eternal damnation for not believing in him then he is kind of a dick, isn't he?


God doesn't condemn people to hell, people choose hell over God. If a person doesn't believe in God, why in the world would they want to spend eternity with Him? If you reject God, God allows that, or would you rather that He forced you to believe in Him? Forced love is called "rape" and God isn't going to rape people. God provided a way for people to be totally and completely absolved of all sin, it's your choice whether to accept that or not. So, God doesn't "condemn" people to eternal damnation, people make that choice themselves and He allows you to make that choice.

some people have to believe in a higher power because it somehow makes them feel better


Haha! Believing in God isn't easy, and it isn't something that magically makes you "feel better" like it's some kind of crutch or something. It's hard work and requires you to work on your faults and your character and requires from you to love and respect your neighbor AND your enemy.

Your referencing the bible to back up your points is not a very good arguement. The bible isn't fact.


Wrong. The Bible is full of fulfilled prophesies, dead on historical data and verifiable events. The Bible was written by some 40 different authors over 2000 years and yet it is completely harmonious in it's message, theme and truth. What you are talking about is belief, and that is separate from the many, many verifiable truths in the Bible.

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.


So is any belief, so is your belief in George Washington, the Civil War, DNA, quarks, you name it. Have you ever SEEN George Washington, were you alive during the Civil War, have you ever seen a strand of DNA, can anyone observe a real quark? No. We believe in many things that we have no direct empirical knowledge of. I can't feel the earth rotating, but I believe it because I can see the sun setting and I believe the sun doesn't rotate around the earth. I can't see that for sure, but I can observe things and draw conclusions. The same is true of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I know He lived because there are many other historical documents that mention Him besides the Bible. I believe He rose from the dead because 11 men (excluding John) suffered death (and many torture) because of that belief and men don't die for a lie they KNOW is a lie. So, I can make conclusions based upon a preponderance of evidence and it's not just some blind belief because the "Bible says it".


So TO YOU it might be true but this doesn't mean that it is in fact true.


You can say that about anything... you can say that about 9/11, some morons think it was an inside job and no matter how many experts and science magazines prove it was a terrorist act it won't change their minds. However, there is a preponderance of evidence that overwhelming supports the truth that 9/11 was a terrorist act... and the same is true (for me) concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ.

What you mean to talk about is "faith" not "belief". Ultimately the belief in the saving work of Jesus comes down to faith, and that much is true. If I could absolutely prove that Jesus is the Son of God and He is the propitiation of sins for man, then no man would need faith AND no man would truly be free to love God or reject God on his own, and then it wouldn't be true love but forced love and that isn't true love.

And for you to say that your trying to save non-believers is an insult and it IS pushing your beliefs on others! If you want to believe that us non believers are so doomend then go ahead and believe it. Believe it all you want, Just don't come knocking on my door with a bible in hand.


I'm not coming to your door knocking with a Bible in my hand, and I never will. I don't knock on anyone's door and evangelize. If someone wants to talk about God, I share my beliefs. If someone is having a problem and wants my help and asks me about my faith, I share my faith. However, people knocking on your door wanting to tell you about Jesus isn't "pushing" their beliefs. You can say goodbye and slam the door, they are just offering it to you. If someone had a cure for cancer, would you want them to knock on your door if you were dying with leukemia? Well, that is how Christians feel about Jesus. We believe that a belief in Jesus is a cure for spiritual death, and we feel compelled in LOVE to share that. Do you think it's EASY to do it? Do you think it's something that Christians get up and think, "Oh gee, I want to share my faith". NO! It's hard and it's embarrassing at times and it's painful when you get harshly rejected, but you do it because you believe that it's true and you want to share that with people because you CARE!

You don't believe, fine. Slam the door, tell someone you don't want to hear. People sometimes come to my door who belong to religions I think are cults, and I politely tell them I'm a Christian and bid them goodbye, but I don't wish them ill and I don't think they are trying to "push" their beliefs on me. I know that they think they are right and are doing what they do out of good intentions and I respect that... you should too.

I realize that some Christians are jerks and do shove it down your throat, and that is wrong. Do you think there aren't atheists who are jerks who are shoving it down other people's throats? You can't judge an entire group of people by the actions of a select few. My belief is that most atheist people are decent, kind people, but I've met my share of jerks. I worked with a guy that made fun of me and ridiculed me and did crap like leave pornographic pictures in my desk. Or he told obscene jokes about Jesus or God or Mary, but I was always kind to him and respected him because I hoped that maybe my witness would help change his mind enough to at least learn to respect a person of ANY religion. There are enough jerks to go around, but I don't judge an entire group of people based on a few rotten eggs.

There was a time when I wasn't a Christian and it was a young man that shared his faith that changed my mind. He was incredibly intelligent, working on his doctorate and knew the Bible and many religions inside and out. He was a brilliant student that has studied in Europe for a year and he was able to answer my intellectual misgivings about Christianity, but ultimately it was a faith decision. God didn't come down from Heaven and appear to me and touch me on the head and I became a Christian, but the preponderance of evidence concerning Jesus and the Bible made it EASY for me to make that faith decision. Make no mistake, my friend, you make faith decisions every day. You buy a car assuming that you are going to live for more than the next few hours. You drive out into an intersection with the faith that no one will just run the red light and plow into you. You go to sleep at night faithful that the roof isn't going to fall on your head. We all make faith decisions, some bigger than others.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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Have you ever been told you should go into politics?

You have an innate ability to spin things.

Trust me, I work amongst politicians, you would hold your own in debates. Not sure if that is a good thing or not.

However, I am sorry about your co-worker. You shouldn't have to put up with that. If it were me in your shoes, I don't know if I would have been so tolerant.

That said, I really do not see any reason to continue this debate. I don't think we are going to change each others minds nor am I trying to. We've said our piece, now lets leave it be.

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Haha! "Politics", huh? No, I'm not "spinning" anything... just making good sense.

I think however that you might find you have a shining career opportunity as a global warming alarmist or something like that. ;-)

You desire to end the discussion... no problem... discussion over.


"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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I have PLENTY of "evidence". I have the Bible,

Its not evidence, its words in a book. Its what YOU want to believe, regardless of the facts. Unless the Bible has God's DNA, I'm not going to take it as evidence.

flat monotonic dirge

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"Its not evidence, its words in a book. Its what YOU want to believe, regardless of the facts. Unless the Bible has God's DNA, I'm not going to take it as evidence."

That's what I think about most "non fiction" books. Even science books can only speculate. There is very little actually known or understood. Pluto was a planet, now it's not. Now we're told that dinosaurs may have had feathers. It all keeps changing and no book is going to have everything exactly perfect, yet we as a collective society live within the confines of what is dictated to us by our books (and our formal educations are based on those books.) Books, written by fallible men and women. But some trust those books and still attack anyone who believes in the Bible. What hypocrisy.

There is only light, my light, my naked light, my gift to you all. Experience my bliss.

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[deleted]

I can't figure out how to quote screename - Bladerunner but but he's asking fair questions. I hope to be able to answer a few of them. This war between religion and hollywood didnt start recently, it goes back thousands of years between the artists and the churches or whoever was in power. Try reversing the questions. When is the last time you walked into a church and heard how great Hollywood is, or secular art, or fiction, or music. It don't happen. As for who started it, who knows and who cares. I dont see either side giving in anytime soon.

Half the country is being told regularly that the media is evil. Hollywood people are crazy and they are all on drugs. The difference between that and the Chainsaw Massacre style movies is that nobody really believes that West Virginia is filled with psycho inbreds, unless you happened to be at the football game between the University of Miami and WVU circa 96. A Miami player shredded his knee on a play. And the West Virgina fans flipped over the Ambulance leaving the stadium! Thats worse than Israel and Palestine. Anyway good luck. And don't be so quick to give up on movies that you think dont have pro-Christian elements...

We all know that Eve bit the apple on Friday the 13th. Therefore women were cursed with 13 cycles a year. Noahs Arc happened on Friday the 13th. Jesus was nailed to the Cross on Friday the 13th. And Jason drowned on Friday the 13th...he wasn't a very good swimmer.

Happy Friday the 13th!

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It's hard to think of movies where Christianity is a major theme that helps people, but I did think of at least four major movies where it's present:

Les Miserables: I don't think an argument can be made against this. The priest/bishop that Jean Valjean robs stuff from redeemed him and with the silver candlesticks, "bought" his soul from him to give to God. Very powerful stuff and a major theme of the movie, what the priest did for Jean Valjean.

The Sound Of Music: shows Nuns in a good light, encouraging Maria to do what she wanted to do. They were good people

Sister Act: it didn't show the Nuns in a negative light...

Home Alone: it's focused on Christmas and shows a theme of redemption (e.g. of the neighbor guy Marley esp, in Kevin's eyes)



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I thought of another one:

The Green Mile: John Coffey (JC = Jesus Christ), tried to heal the twins, healed the sick Melinda Morres (sic), then was put to death as an innocent. changed the life of paul edgecomb. major Christian theme in the movie

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The Green Mile epitomizes the myth of the magic negro. I don't think it offers any positive Christian characters.

Max Dropout
http://vhssummer.blogspot.com/

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I agree with you 100%, Blade. I stated in an earlier thread that the only sanctioned bigotry there is revolves around Christians and poor white people. Fundamentally, a show like the Beverly Hillbillies is no different than Amos and Andy, but few people are intellectually strong enough to actually take an objective look at stuff like this.

The topic here isn't the validity of faith or Christianity. The fact of the matter is that Christians are often depicted as being off their rockers in films, and while there are crazy Christians, there are also crazy Jews, crazy Muslims, and crazy Hindus. But the minute you portray a minority character in a negative light, you have civil liberties groups picketing you. Somehow, it's okay to demonize Christians, though. It's a fact. I'M NOT EVEN CHRISTIAN, and it's plainly obvious to me that Christians are constantly under attack for their beliefs.

If I wrote a movie where black hoodlums from the ghetto terrorized a bunch of white vacationers, I'd be strung up and they'd brand my tombstone with the words "racist honky." If the story revolved around hill folk terrorizing the same vacationers, other people would defend the scenario as true-to-life somehow, and no one would blink.

It isn't uncommon that people are mocked for Christian belief in the media. People rail on politicians who talk about God. But the minute the Dalai Lama shows up, everyone's sucking him off and taking his divine wisdom into account.

The last time I checked, putting anyone down for what they personally believe in went against the fundamental beliefs and values that make this country a great place to live. So many self loathing whites love to say "Christian" with the same connotation once reserved for the "N-word." Tolerance seems to be only selectively enforced these days. And if you're white or Christian, you won't see any of it.


Max Dropout
http://vhssummer.blogspot.com/

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