i'm sure i'll get my head handed to me, but.... - A Girl Like Me: The Gwen Araujo Story (2006) Discussion

[–] josephrh311 14 years ago

Maybe she was just under the false impression that the straight community is a benign group. Aside from embarrassment, it didn't seem like she was expecting these people to be murderous psychos. As shocking as it must have been for those guys, it still doesn't give any reasonable explanation for what they did. According to the movie they beat her for 5 hours. Even if she came on to them strongly, she didn't deserve what happened and you can't honestly say she "brought it on herself." Most of us know right from wrong, and unfortunately she met some people who weren't aware of that concept. Here's hoping they all got ass raped in prison.

"I thought you were the man with the big cigar. What are you packin'- a tiparillo?"

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[–] The_Devil_Incarnate 14 years ago

I caught this movie last night and it made me incredibally sad and angry at the same time. These guys had an idea that Gwen was born a male and they chose to bring her there to find out, does anyone really believe these guys didn't intend on harming Gwen if their fears were confirmed? They beat her for 5 hours, strangled her and then buried her...that seems like a lot more than just "losing it" after finding the truth out.

Joey found out a lot sooner than these guys and he had a much more intimate relationship with Gwen yet he didn't go and cause her harm. His anger was from shock and his punching a wall is "losing it" after finding out. Murder is not.

Here's hoping they all got ass raped in prison.

Couldn't agree more!

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[–] berzelmayr 14 years ago

typical American (your last sentence)

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[–] RShaBazzEMS2002 14 years ago

I do understand what you're saying to an estent moosefeathers but you have to keep in mind and understand that trangendred people feel like they're in the wrong body and feel that they're the opposite sex like in Gewn's case she always felt she was a woman and was attracted to men. I do feel that once they make the decision to live in that way that take the responsibility of being 100% honest about being transgendered to their partner friends and family.

Rafiqa $.

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

Gwn was a straight girl just in the wrong body, What do you mean by "circles"? You mean Gwen should have sought GAY men? A gay man would not want to be with a girl like Gwen.

It doesn't matter what the REASON was, it's still MURDER!!! There is NO excuse!

What's funny is if a man HITS his wife, it doesn't matter what the reason is, people say a man should NEVER hit a woman, even if she's cheating on him or even if she HITS HIM first, most people STILL say theres no excuse for him hitting her, but yet people make excuses for those pieces of filth who killed Gwen and sympathize with them saying, "Ah, we shouldn't be so hard on them, after all their reason was a little jusitifed". "Maybe we can call it "gay panic"

Well if that's the case when a man beats his wife up for cheating on him, maybe we should excuse that and call it "infedelity panic". And if she's acting rude and disrespectful maybe she brought it on herself. but yet no one would say that.

The past doesn't exist and the future is only an illusion.

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[–] patton98 14 years ago

<<"I do feel that once they make the decision to live in that way that take the responsibility of being 100% honest about being transgendered to their partner friends and family.">>

That hardly happens in reality as far as i'm concerned. You don't hear many people confessing to their friends about all their physical handicaps, not even to their partners. Some things are kept private, and should be left that way.

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[–] imtotallyconfused 14 years ago

People do say that, though. People excuse abusive husbands for those exact reasons all the time. Newspapers claim women 'know what to expect' when they go back to abusive husbands, and when the Chris Brown/Rihanna story came out people claimed she must have antagonised him and therefore was partly to blame.

It already has a name - it's called 'trans panic' because although the actions may partly be influenced by homophobia, that's their opinion and it doesn't make any trans woman male. It's used as a defense in these murders all the time, but as someone pointed out upthread, when you're angry because someone supposedly 'deceived' you (which these women did not; they were women and thus no trickery was involved), the average person's response is not murder, and to do so deserves a sentence in which this pathetic excuse is discounted.

(My apologise for the patronising language in the second paragraph - it's clear from your earlier comments that you're aware of these things, but there are others that aren't, and therefore I have chosen to be careful with my language and point out the obvious.)

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Um no, Patton, a spouse owes their partner their full sexual history. I mean, really??

What women are you talking about, Imtotallyconfused? Because Gwen was NOT a woman. I felt awful for him, when he spoke of God being a sadist and what he really was. But, one thing he had no business doing was showing up at school and then church with makeup on; he set himself, and his sister, up to be picked on.

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

Many are starting to believe there is more that makes up a woman than just having a vagina, many therapists are starting to believe believe there are more differences between a man and woman than just a penis and a vagina.

For e.g. the brain! hormones in the brain, and if that's the case Gwen WAS A WOMAN!

Youre just one of these "people" *haters* who refuse to call her a SHE.

You just totally don't UNDERSTAND or GET IT! That's all I can say. Maybe if you someone you love dearly is trans someday, you will change your views and you won't be so hard-hearted. My mother refers to me as her daughter now *just like Gwens' finally did her* Believe me it's different when you see someone you love go through it. You don't always have a science book attitue of "Oh well technically you have a penis, so you are a HE no ifs ands nor buts" "You lie on the EXTREME male end of the gender spectrum, there are no inbetweens and I have NO tolerance!"

You'll find as you get older there are a lot of in-betweens.

I'm guessing you aren't very old and don't know a whole lot about the world.

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Not calling someone a "she" doesn't make me in the least a hater. If you think I have no empathy, Toking, why do you suppose I went from calling Gwen a he to a she? I expressed a lot of sympathy for her as I continued to watch the film and deleted some comments referring to her as a he. But, I maintain that it's vital and only right to tell someone what your body is if you haven't had an operation yet.

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

Why don't you actually do some reasearch on the subject of transsexualism, it will educate you on correct terminology and things, and why it might seem more natural actually to refer to a trans woman as SHE rather than HE. It will also educate you on thoeries on what causes transgenderism.

Think of like this, if your female brain was taken out of your head and put in a male body, you'd still be YOU, a FEMALE, and IMO you should still be refered to as a SHE, make sense?

People have the wrong idea, they think that trans girls are guys TRYING to be girls, what they don't understand is that we ARE actaully girls just born in the wrong body. So we should be respected as such, even if you don't believe it's true it's more a respect thing. If you know I don't wanna be refered to as a HE then don't freakin call me that, I dont see that it should really matter to you.

Try to use a little empathy, put yourself in OUR shoes.

I always said I wish everyone would spend about a year of their life in the wrong body, then they would gladly call us and treat us by our true inward genders and know what it's like.

You'd put the science book away and get more on a human level.

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] Clothes-Off 14 years ago

You deserve to have your head handed to you. Maybe more. You're practically quoting the godawful defense lawyer portrayed in this TV movie.

And that "they should stay in their own circles" comment smacks of the same bigotry that racist people use to justify violence against people of other races.

Yeah, don't talk to anyone and be outgoing, you might get killed for it. Idiot.

And even worse that you compare it to Boys Don't Cry. In that case, the victim wasn't even interested in the men who murdered her, or men in general.

"Well, for once the rich white man is in control!" C. M. Burns

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Clothes, get in touch with reality; your violent spewing reflects nothing of it, or anything that the OP actually said. Newsflash: most people DO feel violated if they find out that the person they're seeing wasn't always a man, or woman, or whatever.

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[–] ohmypotter 14 years ago

I do agree with you to a certain extent. Transgender people certainly don't deserve to be beaten or murdered or even ridiculed, but I do think that the people they go out with have a right to know the truth. I think they have a right to know that the person they could be dating may or may not be 100% biologically the gender they are presenting. You can support the lifestyle they are living and the fact that they were born in the wrong body, but that doesn't mean that you have to date them. You have a right to know the important things about a person, and I'd say that's one of them.

I don't think they shouldn't "infiltrate" the straight world, [the way that was phrased was in very poor taste btw] they should just be up front about everything. I don't think that's too much to ask.

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

"You have a right to know the important things about a person,"

That is all subjective though. What YOU consider important, might not be what I consider important.

To me, it doesn not matter one bit what my partner was born with between his or her legs. To me there is MUCH MUCH more to a person than just his or her physical sex.

To some people a person's true hair color might be the most important thing, maybe a guy wants to know that the "blonde" he's dating is really a brunette.

And I know people say "Oh I support trans people but I wouldn't wanna date one" Well I will say if someone says that then they do NOT really support and accept trans people. I'm not saying that a guy has to date any and every trans woman to be accepting, just as he's not expected to date any and every woman. BUT if he's saying that he absolutly will not date a trans woman just because she's trans and he's totally closed to dating trans women, then no, he is not accepting.

Just the same as if a guy said he would absolutly not date a black woman, he would be seen as a bigot and racist, so the same applies here.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] patton98 14 years ago

Totally agree, toking.

<<<<they should just be up front about everything. I don't think that's too much to ask.>>>>

Yes believe me that's in fact too much to ask, you completely disregard them as human beings that you see in front of you, personally i would even take it as an insult if someone asked me if i was trans, no matter if it was true or not. First you have to get to know the real person inside, then start to ask. Because otherwise you don't deserve to know it. It's by far not the most important thing, and it shouldn't be in any lovable relationship. If i loved someone and she told me that she is barren i won't dump her in a second. Love goes deeper, and trans people deserve that little more time to be at least recognized and loved as human beings first and UPFRONT.

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

"Totally agree, toking."

Thanks! I'm glad some people do lol

Question your prejudices.

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[–] ohmypotter 14 years ago

Actually, it is possible to be supportive of trans people and not want to date them. It might not even be because of their biologic makeup, it could be because there are simply some things you can't do that may be a "deal breaker". Having kids, being married in the Catholic church, etc.

Now, I asked my trans friend this question-do you think you would be in a relationship with someone who didn't know you were trans?-and he said no, he absolutely wouldn't be, and for two reasons. 1. It would be too nerve wracking because he would constantly feel like he was hiding something and lying to them [which he is] and 2. he wouldn't want to date someone or sleep with someone who didn't like him because he's trans.

If you are so unashamed to be trans, then what are you hiding for? Wouldn't you rather tell the people you're with that you're trans then hide it and find out that they're mean and bigoted when they DO find out?

It's not unacceptable for someone to be mad at finding out that the person they're with is trans. It's lying and betraying, regardless of what it's about.

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[–] patton98 14 years ago

It's not lying nor betraying at all!! Because in every relationship everyone is allowed to have privacy, no one tells each other every little thing about themselves! The fact that someone would be mad because the person he is with is trans is only and only a problem of that man himself for being so weak-minded morally. And I attended a seminar that discussed this and 95% of people (who were not trans either) agreed with me. Not everyone says on the first date that they can't have babies or having some physical problems. People do NOT say these things so soon EVER! Get this fact straight please, what you say is a clear nonsense and pretty cruel. Would you be mad at someone after having sex with her that she didn't tell you that she can't have babies? that literally she is not a perfect woman for you?! Think about it, and think about YOURSELF, what you claim here only shows the lack of humanity in yourself, your own insecurities and that's a fact. I would only strongly support people with trans issues to keep it to themselves as LONG as is possible, so their potential partners could get to know THEM, their heart and soul. That's in fact what love is about, it is not physical, love is a spiritual energy and force, it has nothing to do with your body, unless you're motivated only sexually.

The fact that the majority of trans people don't say it upfront is only a reflection of social reality of non-trans people!!! And this is what most people I talked to in public concured with as well, because the fact when a woman who wears a stuffed bra doesn't say it upfront is not usually seen by men as a lie or betrayal on the part of a woman either. That's why people who have at least a little self-respect and value in themselves never say it upfront. And believe me even people who have no trans issues or sex change encourage these people to keep it to themselves, because we teach people self-love first and foremost from their very beginnings. We teach them not to judge, love or hate others based on their bodies, but love them as human beings, for their humanity.

i don't tell people every single fact about me, that doesn't mean that i've lied to or betrayed them about my life.

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[–] ohmypotter 14 years ago

Oh please. Stop whining. You, in fact, are most likely in the minority. Most people would agree with me, that someone's biological sex and gender are VERY important and something that needs to be shared, before you start a relationship and certainly before you have sex. Trans people admit themselves that people such as Gwen Araujo and, in the example of Boys Don't Cry, Brandon Teena, were deceptive. Many will say they were "asking for it". I'm not one of them.

Your example of infertility is totally irrelevant. That's something that would affect you years in the future, whereas needing and wanting to know that the guy I might be dating is actually a physical girl is something that affects everyday life. I'm not saying I wouldn't be open to dating a trans man. But I would like to be able to make that decision for myself without finding out nine months down the road that my boyfriend is really the same biological sex as me. I would feel hurt, betrayed, shocked...and like he didn't trust me.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. If, as a transgender male or female, you are at peace with being TG, if you feel strongly about TG awareness, then what do you have to hide? Wouldn't you rather be with someone who loves you for YOU, rather than deceive them and have them find out down the road and hate you?

------
"It's huge to finally embrace the life you never planned on." --Greenberg

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[–] patton98 14 years ago

<<<whereas needing and wanting to know that the guy I might be dating is actually a physical girl is something that affects everyday life>>>

And that's exactly where you are wrong, a guy you would be dating is not a physical woman anymore! because the one who underwent sex change is NO LONGER physcially what they were born! Ignorance breeds evil, shock, and all kinds of negativity... ignorance. It is up to you to cope with it, not up to trans people. We all are different, and difference in us we're finding sometimes even 20 years down the line. But love can overcome it all if you give it a chance. Biological sex is NOT important in the face of love!!! And it does NOT matter if i'm in the minority or majority, that's not the point at all. This is a universal truth for all.

You ask what do they have to hide?! That's funny, because you may not realize that they actually have self-respect enough to reveal their own personlity first, because their personality and humanity is what's far more important in terms of love. The problem is that people like you are still out there who don't get it, who don't want to give them enough respect to love and to be loved as human beings. And believe me we all can love anyone no matter what physical flaws they or we have.

I know several people who wish they didn't know it as soon from them, because they didn't give them a chance to get to know them enough to lookover this flaw, their physical flaw can cloud your own emotional feelings very easily. That's why MOST of them as a matter of fact don't say it as soon, it's an extremely wise and reasonable decision, and very well thought-out. Hopefully you'll get enough knowledge and strength to understand it, to understand the word empathy and love.

Not saying what's your birth-sex is not a deception at all, because there's no rule or obligation to say it at all, it's a personal decision and no one should be forced to say it, unless your partner wants to know it. When we enter a relationship we don't have to expect that our partner was born the way based on the conventions or expectations we see around when we're growing up, what I mean is that a biological girl or boy don't tell their partners that their birth-sex is the one that we see. So the question is, why should trans people conform to a norm of non-trans people. Why should we assume that conjunction between biological sex and gender is what everyone expects in a relationship. Hopefully you'll understand this moral stance. You don't have to be a PhD philosopher to understand it.

Have a nice day

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

I think for myself I would tell the person I am trans I'm dating on about the 2nd or 3rd date, not the 1st one, b/c a lot of times when people hear things like that, as you say, they run off and won't even give you a chance.

And when a trans woman tell her partner she should NEVER say, "I was born a man!" That is such a wrong way to put it!

Question your prejudices.

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[–] ohmypotter 14 years ago

No one ever said the instances we were speaking of a post-op transgender. In that case, no, I don't think they have to mention it, only if they want to. If they don't then they'll have to keep their past, their pictures, everything to themselves, but in that case then yes they can keep it to themselves.

Please don't insinuate that I'm bigoted, closed minded, or "ignorant" as you say. I feel that someone pre-sex change should share their biological sex with the person they're in a relationship with. Maybe not on the first date, but certainly before you have sex. It's not that I don't have compassion. I just also have some reason.

------
"It's huge to finally embrace the life you never planned on." --Greenberg

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

"if you feel strongly about TG awareness, then what do you have to hide? Wouldn't you rather be with someone who loves you for YOU, rather than deceive them and have them find out down the road and hate you?"

While I agree I WOULD want to be loved for the whole me, being born with a male birth defect and all, I WOULD tell my partner I was born male, but it's just so I know I will be loved for the whole me, it really has nothing to do with being honest with them, if they are so closed minded and shallow that they wouldn't date a trans woman I would need to know that so I won't be wasting time with them.

And also it's not that we are trying to HIDE anything. Don't you understand trans women just want to live a NORMAL life as the gender they are on the inside? I mean it makes sense that we don't go down the street yellng, "HEY EVERYONE I MIGHT LOOK LIKE A WOMAN BUT I WAS REALLY BORN MALE!!!" Or when a waitress in a restaurant calls me "Ma'am" I don't say to her, "Hey as much as I LOVE you to call me Ma'am I must be honest and tell you I was born male!"

And yes Patton is right a trans guy you'd be dating would not physically be a GIRL, nor female anymore.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] simplemines 14 years ago

You must be insane. What GENDER you are isn't "every little thing"! You don't get to lie to someone about something that important, esp. in a romantic relationship. It's a horrible, horrible thing to do to anyone.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Yes Patton, it IS lying. Every little detail? Like "I'm not really the gender you think I am"?

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

It's like Gwen's mom said, Gwen would have been lying IF she let people think she was a guy. Like I said if you have a child who's trans.. it will be different.

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Toking, do you really think a guy would go, "Ohh, you're emotionally a woman, so having a penis doesn't really matter! Oh, ok then.."

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

Believe it or not there ARE guys *and people* who feel that way.

I'm one of them, are you saying I'm not a REAL person?

There ARE some men who identify as straight who date trans women and who would never be with a "normal" man.

And there are some lesbian women who are open to being with trans women.

They may not be plentiful but they DO exist.

Like I said I can tell you are not vry old and don't know much about what you're talking about.

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

I know exactly what I'm talking about, how men see their sexuality and how everyone is affected by their gender.

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[–] simplemines 14 years ago

The gender someone represents themselves as is NOT "subjective." It's a fact. Taking estrogen doesn't make you a woman.

I am sorry this person was murdered. It's a horrible FACT (do you think murder is subjective?), but lying to a man - and presenting yourself as a female when you are not a female IS a lie - is a rotten thing to do. I don't care how much this person felt like a female, until he got gender reassignment surgery, he was a HE.

If he wanted to live as a female, more power to him. But to try to "pass" as a womam while not being a woman, and not letting a guy know, bespeaks a rotten, depraved, utterly selfish character.

It's a rotten thing to do. And no matter what you say or how much you whine, it is still a rotten thing to do.

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[–] Sethslvr 14 years ago

I have to agree...whether you feel like a woman or not...you are a male..and common sense says that "tricking" someone in that manner can lead to trouble..As a woman I try not to put myself in situations where I can be assaulted or raped...of course it can happen anyway..why go looking for trouble?

That guy came to us for help, and we lit him on fire!
Move, and I'll sock ya one!

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

"whether you feel like a woman or not"

It's not just that we FEEL like women or "want to be women" we ARE women, we have women's brains, they just somehow wound up in the wrong body.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] Sethslvr 14 years ago

Emotionally you may be "women" but when involved with alcohol and testosterone it is probably not the smartest decision to be pretending to be a female..

That guy came to us for help, and we lit him on fire!
Move, and I'll sock ya one!

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

Define a "woman". Is it simply having a vagina and lacking a penis and that's IT, that's ALL that makes a woman a WOMAN?

I'm sorry but I feel the mental, emotional, and psychological is just as important as the physical. So whether or not Gwen ever has surgery to me she is still a SHE and was a SHE from the say she was born, they just didn't know it.

I just feel in a civilized culture we should accept, treat, ect people based on their BRAIN and not soley on ONE sex organ.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] simplemines 14 years ago

"Define a "woman". Is it simply having a vagina and lacking a penis and that's IT, that's ALL that makes a woman a WOMAN? "

No, that isn't ALL that makes a woman a woman, but you can't be a woman without it! (as in "born with it," just in case you want to try the routine that women who have had hysterectomies aren't really "women.")

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

Ok so ALL that makes a woman a woman is being BORN with a vagina and that's IT!
WOW I'm glad things are SO black and white and one extreme or the other.

Sorry but I tend to think personality, brain, heart, emotions, looks and soul have something to do with it.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] simplemines 14 years ago

"Ok so ALL that makes a woman a woman is being BORN with a vagina and that's IT! "

No, that is NOT what I said, but I have a feeling you never let little details like facts stop you in the midst of a rant.

Just to let you know, no matter how much estrogen you mainline, your DNA will always come up male if you were born a male. That's a fact. Period.

You can't change biology, cupcake.

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

"your DNA will always come up male if you were born a male. That's a fact. Period."

And my heart, brain and soul will always come up FEMALE. And Mentally, emotionally and psychologically I will always be FEMALE.

There is more that makes up a person than just DNA.

I don't see how people deny this, babies are born with all types of birth defects, WHY is a male child being born with a female brain *or vice-versa* so out of the question.

And I've even heard studies that suggest that there is little to NO difference between female DNA and male DNA, and DNA is different in EVERYONE from individual to individual not just from male to female.

And I am also XXY, so how does that register in DNA?

Question your prejudices.

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[–] simplemines 14 years ago

You had a DNA test for gender??? Sure you did.

But to get back to what YOU said about "birth defects." Did it ever occur to you that maybe you thinking you're female is all in your head? Maybe it's not real?

I really don't want to argue this with you. I feel terrible for you. What's wrong with you, whatever it is, is horrible. I can't imagine what it's like to be in your state.

But that doesn't make you a woman.

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

"Did it ever occur to you that maybe you thinking you're female is all in your head? Maybe it's not real?"

No, it's not as though people haven't tried to tell me that my entire life, OR the classic "It's just a PHASE he'll grow out of." *rolls eyes*

So if it's not something physcial that you can SEE, touch and feel, it's NOT real to you, huh? So babies can be bron hermaphrodite, innersexed and all that BUT the idea of a male baby being born with a female brain is just TOTALLY out of the question?

If it's all just "in our heads" as you say. Then why is there are handful of people who are affected by transgenderism and gender identity dysphoria?

I knew I was a girl when I was 4 years old and old enough to think.

"I feel terrible for you."

Sure you do.

"But that doesn't make you a woman."

There's always a BUT though isn't there?

I AM a woman, I might not be 100% female, but I am 100% WOMAN, there is a difference, maybe it's something you wanna read up on and study and educate yourself a little, but I doubt you will change your thinking at all.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] simplemines 14 years ago

No, actually, I AM sorry for you. It has to be a terrible way to live. I can't imagine what life is like for you.

But that doesn't change the facts of the case. DNA is DNA. You were born a man, you'll die one. That's just how it goes.

In case you didn't notice, life really isn't fair (no, really.)

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[–] laflic 14 years ago

No, that is NOT what I said, but I have a feeling you never let little details like facts stop you in the midst of a rant.

Just to let you know, no matter how much estrogen you mainline, your DNA will always come up male if you were born a male. That's a fact. Period.

You can't change biology, cupcake.

People like you will always be wrong, because you think that facts are only objective, wrong baby, in this case you see fact your own way and the other person see them his own way, they are highly subjective! And you will NEVER be forcing your own values on someone else in a romatic relationship, gender doesn't have to be important at all, maybe to you it is, but to others it isn't. How can anyone know what values you have upfront.

It's a risk to keep it to themselves, and most transgendered people keep it to themselves of course, but it's worth it, even worth it to be murdered for it. It's a matter of morality and respect of each other's freedom that people like you don't have!

No one is tricking anyone in this case, because no one can expect what are your own values what is or not important! At transsexual people biology is female even if they were born with male body, under the estrogen treatments biology is drastically altered, not to mention that female brain is part of one's biology as well. And that's a fact too. DNA only proves how you were born, not how you live at present time.

With judgemental ignorant people like you sex will always be more important than gender of course. lol.
Just because you say this or that doesn't make you a woman doesn't mean it's true, this so-called fact you came up with is only in your own brain. So then how transsexual people are supposed to know that ppl like you are so self-delusional and ignorant while they're dating you. Not everyone can expect that you would see this birth defect as important when in reality they are the GENDER and SEX that they present themselves with to you, when speaking of post-operation trans people.

Who do you think you are, that you can project your own dangerous expectations on your own partners, not only you are arrogant, but also very ignorant about others' free will. Your partners are not supposed to do this or that based on your own values. You are not God.

btw, I don't know ANY post-op trans people who would tell their partners about their birth defect in the first 6 months of their relationship. That's how life works, and how it should be. Get used to it.

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[–] laflic 14 years ago

But to get back to what YOU said about "birth defects." Did it ever occur to you that maybe you thinking you're female is all in your head? Maybe it's not real?

And did it ever occur to you that what is real or not is only created by limited and judgemental social norms?!? The only thing that is truly real when it comes to gender is only a sense and knowledge of your own identity. How totalitirian it would be to compromise your own identity due to the blind suffocating social norms, the same norms that expect from trans people to tell others about their birth sex in a relationship, draw a little parallel with communist systems out there, see it as a metaphor, it's exactly the same case. Absolutely no respect for individual freedom.

Thanks god there are no laws for this yet, it's just those little expectations from ignorant public who stupidly think that somehow they've been "tricked". lol.

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[–] Manny-54 14 years ago

laflic, very well said!... by far you're not the only one who finds it extremely hilarious when some dimwitts use that card being *tricked or deceived*. It's just so pathetic it's unbelievable. As if transsexuals felt they're doing anything wrong like this, lots of people tell me that past is not as important as the present time in which your partner lives in, so obviously not many people would think it's important for some how someone was born. Usually people care about how someone lives right now. And I'm speaking as someone who lives with a wife who told me not so long ago about her sex change after being married with me for 3 years already. You think I was shocked, guess again, not even a little bit, on contrary I was trying to calm her down and reassure her that it doesn't change my feelings to her at all. I understand why she didn't say it to me as soon, I also didn't say to her things about my past that others might find important, but how should I know what others see as important in the first place.

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

Manny-I admire you, that doesn't happen often that upon a someone finding out that their girlfriend was born the opposite sex it doesn't end the relationship, unfortunatly.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Manny honey, we're discussing people who STILL ARE biologically the opposite of what they TELL the people they're sexually intimate with. So don't give me crap about how people are whining about a "little thing" like sex.

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

Oh GOD SHUT UP!!!

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

You're taking my factual statements about being upfront for hatred towards you personally. That's not what it is at all.

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[–] simplemines 14 years ago

If you wouldn't "tell" a partner that you aren't a biological woman, and tell them early on, you're simply a POS creep.

It's a rotten thing to do to someone. Only someone with no morals or values at all, who is completely self centered, who thinks it's all about them, who uses other people for their own gratification, would do such a horrible thing.

And the facts still remain. You can't change DNA with estrogen injections and the use of a ginsu knife.

If you are born a male, you are biologically a male until the day you die. You may not like it, you may rail and shriek and pound your fists and scream to the gods, but there it is.

DNA doesn't lie. But apparently selfish and self centered tranny wannabes DO.

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

You are a COLD insensitive person don't you EVER tell me you feel for me! A human being is NOT just based on a damn BIOLOGY BOOK.

"Only someone with no morals or values at all, who is completely self centered, who thinks it's all about them"

And hell yeah, we're WOMEN, it IS all about US!! LOL And who ever I'm with will treat me like the QUEEN I deserve to be treated like, that's why I DO tell the partner I was born the opposite sex, b/c it's important for me that he or she loves the WHOLE me, birth defect and ALL.

If it wasn't for DNA, your FAVORITE word, you wouldn't have ANYTHING to talk about.

And you DO realize that al fetuses start out as FEMALE anyway, so there is not as much difference in a male and female as you seem to think anyway.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] simplemines 14 years ago

I truly am sorry for you. You have my pity.

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[–] laflic 14 years ago

If you wouldn't "tell" a partner that you aren't a biological woman, and tell them early on, you're simply a POS creep.

It's a rotten thing to do to someone. Only someone with no morals or values at all, who is completely self centered, who thinks it's all about them, who uses other people for their own gratification, would do such a horrible thing.

And the facts still remain. You can't change DNA with estrogen injections and the use of a ginsu knife.

If you are born a male, you are biologically a male until the day you die. You may not like it, you may rail and shriek and pound your fists and scream to the gods, but there it is.

DNA doesn't lie. But apparently selfish and self centered tranny wannabes DO.

This post says a lot about you as a person. Some trans people don't see it as a horrible thing to do. Because it's probably the least important thing to talk about. What morals and values you have then, look at yourself, because of people like you there are wars and conflicts all the time, think about yourself first before you judge others, because your partner didn't show you a little scar on her ass she's a horrible person with no morals and values, right. It's EXACTLY the same thing. You're lacking a respect for human beings in general, that's what your comments speak to us. And there's nothing one can do about it.

It's clearly a risk for anyone to go in a relationship these daysw, someone can turn out to be a total psycho or sociopath later on, we don't know.

Personally I would rather spend my time with a trans person who's the only wrong thing is her/his body than someone who's a bad person on the inside, a total psychopath.

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[–] simplemines 14 years ago

It doesn't matter if they see or don't see it as a horrible thing to do. OBJECTIVELY it is a horrible thing to do. It is CRUEL. It takes advantage of someone's ignorance. It WILL matter to that person, at the very least, because they were deliberately kept in the dark.

People who are supposedly "loving" don't lie about something that important to someone they say they love.

There are people who wouldn't mind. Find them. Stop deceiving others. It's rotten, it's crummy, and it's utterly selfish.

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

I'm a naturally brownish blonde, but usually keep my hair colored auburn, so should I reveil that too to my partner, I mean should I reviel everything about myself?

Question your prejudices.

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[–] laflic 14 years ago

It doesn't matter if they see or don't see it as a horrible thing to do. OBJECTIVELY it is a horrible thing to do. It is CRUEL. It takes advantage of someone's ignorance. It WILL matter to that person, at the very least, because they were deliberately kept in the dark.

That's your own point of view, but keep it in mind that not everyone has the same values as you do, and such relationships work perfectly. To some people it is not important, therefore there's nothing that would keep anyone in the dark. Your way of thinking is just laughable, sorry. That's my own pov, and many others too. The reason why you among hundreds of people who read topics like this came here to respond because you don't like the way how things work in life usually.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

The way things work in life, laf, is that most people would be PISSED if they found out that the person they were with lied to them. What subjective nonsense you're spouting here. And toking, once again the hair-color comparison is a crock.

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[–] toking65000 14 years ago

Well MY feeling on this is:

A pre op trans woman person should probably tell her partner that physically she has male parts BEFORE there is any kind of sexual, intimate contact, just for HER OWN safty, especially if she's with a MAN, just to prent him doing something STUPID like beating her up and maybe killing her.

However if she is POST OP I don't feel like she has to tell a damn thing.

I would always tell my partner, even if I was post op, because like I said, it's important to me that my partner loves the WHOLE, ENITRE me, birth defect and all, And I wouldn't not want to have to hide old childhood pictures and things like that from him or her, I would like to be able to share my past as well as my whole life with him or her.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] toking65000 13 years ago

"POST OPs & PRE OPs should tell their partners, because not everyone is attracted to transpeople & some of their partners may want biological children."

If they are attracted to a trans woman WITHOUT knowing she's trans then they are attracted to trans women, but really trans women are WOMEN. And if someone isn't attracted to trans people SIMPLY b/c they are trans, they are shallow-minded jerks anyway, so that's one reason I'd tell my partner, b/c I'd wanna know if he or she was a shallow minded JERK! I mean if a man says he's not attracted to fat girls, we usually call him shallow minded,so why not call him that for not being attracted to trans women SIMPLY b/c she's trans.

I just think it's pretty ignorant to have the attitude if someone's trans that automatically rules them out as a date, and forget abotu everything else about them that make them an individual person.

I mean if a man sees a beautiful woman and is attracted to her, then find out she's trans and is like "EEEWWWWWW disgusting!" That's his own ignorance, it's the same damn woman!

I guess I'd say to these ignorant, narrow-minded men, GET OVER IT! Expand your options and GROW and branch out some, dont knock something till you try it.

And about having children.... You DO know a lot of cis women *genetic females* can't have children, do you think SHE owes it to her partner to tell him she can't have children. And I garantee if a man refused to have a relationship with a woman just b/c she can't have kids, people would be calling him shallow-minded.

Question your prejudices.

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[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] toking65000 13 years ago

I'm just saying in MY EYES it's a little shallow to just automatically rule out someone as a potential date, that's just my opinion and I know people will disagree.

I consider myself bisexual or maybe pansexual, that means I'm OPEN to dating anyone, and don't just automatically rule out anyone. I mean sure I DO have my prefrences, but I'm open to anyone who's atleast 21 and illness-free.

But I think males get called shallowed minded more than women, for e.g. if a woman says she'd NEVER date a shorter guy, all well and good, but if a man says he's never date a fat woman, then he's a shallow-minded pig. SOO since I was born male, sometimes I DO get called shallow-minded for even STATING a prefrence I might have.

My point is, it's OK to have prefrences, but I don't think people should just automatically rule someone out.

And I understand perfectly how Gwen felt, she just wanted to at long last, live her life as the gender she TRULY was. She may have known that those guys were homophobic BUT, you see, trans women do NOT see themselves as gay men. So I'm sure Gwen did not see her encounters with those guys as homosexual, she saw herself as a straight woman. As her mother's boyfriend said Gwen would only be gay if she was with a girl, so he obviosly got it.

And there are some straight guys who identify as straight who DO date trans women but would never be with an ordinary man, maybe Gwen was hoping that about those guys.

I also think Gwen felt that those guys KNEW she was trans, I know a lot of trans people kinda feel and hope people know deep down, just b/c that means they are being FULLY accepted. I know I would always want my close friends at least to know that I'm trans that way I know they fully accept me. I know Gwen said about her first boyfriend, "He already knows." So I think maybe she felt maybe they did know it.

I can identify a little, at the garage where I take my car to get the oil changed and stuff the guy there always calls me his "little lady", and says "Hows my little lady today?" This has been going on for years, and deep down I wanna THINK he knows I'm trans.

And who knows, perhaps her 1st boyfriend did know it. Maybe it was only when her mom brought it out in the open that he went haywire about it. I mean how can you date someone 9 monthes and be as close as they were and not know it?

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Laf, you are seriously sounding like an ignorant fool. Yes, a scar on a perosn's ass is EXACTLY the same as what SEX they are. And what a little topic indeed, their freaking sexual IDENTITY. You sound insane.

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

You sound like an ignorant hater.

And you're calling someone an ignorant fool? Pot calling the kettle black much?

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

An ignorant hater because people should be honest? My comments have nothing to do with transexuality, they have to do with honesty.

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

Oh as Gwen's mother pointed out Gwen WAS being honest portraying herself as a GIRL! That's what her living as a girl was all about, BEING HONEST WITH WHO SHE WAS!

As her mom said she would be lying if she let people see her as a boy!! Can you not GET that concept?

I think yo're a hater if you sympthize at ALL with those guys.

Like I told you, if you piss off your boyfriend or husband and he beats the crap out of YOU, I don't wanna hear you whinning and crying, and if you come here talking about it, I'm gonna say, "Well I wanna hear HIS side of the story!, I'm sure he had his reasons!"

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Once again, you're giving very fauly comparisons. Pretending to be something you're BIOLOGICALLY not and then performing sex on someone else is TAKING ADVANTAGE of them.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Right laflic, biological ORGANS and facts are subjective. Nope, sorry.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Here we go again. Toking, what matters is whether the person you're with sees you as a gender other than the one you BIOLOGICALLY are.

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[–] Oblivion14 13 years ago

Men lie to women all the time. Do they get killed?

The problem with the gay panic defense (or in this case, trans panic), is that straight men use it as an excuse for denying humanity to another person. And the really pathetic thing about it, is that they're willing to become monsters just to 'protect' the image that they're all man. As if nothing else matters but maintaining that macho image.

It's childish and the way straight men seem to think it's okay to react that way is just another example of the evil fundamentalist religions are teaching their kids.

Whatever her reasons for doing that, there is NO excuse for murder.

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[–] toking65000 13 years ago

I agree! That gay panic stuff is a bunch of BS!

I mean hell what if someone kills his wife for cheating then claims he has infedelity panic?

ANd I dunno why straight men associate being "macho" or "all man" with being straight, really they have NOTHING to do with eachother.

Sure there are feminine prissy gay guys, BUT there are gay guys who are totally masculine, macho and "all man". Just like there are straight guys who are feminine.

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Don't try to make all men look bad here, Oblivion. And it's whatever HIS reasons were, not HER reasons.

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[–] Oblivion14 12 years ago

HER.

And I'm a man and I like my own gender just fine.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Now there's Toking comparing sex to hair color. Unbelievable. Whether you like it or not, sex defines us to a great deal; if men and women weren't different, then why do you think Gwen ACTED differently since he felt that he was a girl??

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

"Whether you like it or not, sex defines us to a great deal"

In some countries it's not like that, in some parts of the world gender is actually based on one's personality, the way the act, etc...

In this country we put too much emphasis on things like that,

Just admitt it you are an intolerant HATER! At first I was taking what you said serious but the more I read your comments you are a HATE, period. You're one of the sly ones who kinda masks it with, "They were justified in givin' her a few punches but they had no right killing her, and it was hateful for those church people to be holding "God Hates Fags signs, blah blah blah booo freakin hooo"

You might as well be standing out there holding signs with those church people. Youre no better , mask it anyway you want, you are intolerant!

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Toking, our sex DOES affect our personaloity. I believe that you are a woman, meant to be one. And I am not hateful because I think someone with male organs should be HONEST with other people about their current state. You're very strong on this because of your own experience, and I can understand that, but to then DENY that a person with male organs should be honest with the men they're dating, and accuse me of being insincere when I express anger towards Gwen being hurt, is not being reasonable.

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[–] unknown_soul278 13 years ago

Brandon Teena did not push himself onto anyone, and had zero interest in the animals who gang-raped and killed him.

Gwen was trying to stay in her own circle... it's called 'humanity'. Her killers were not.

The wild, cruel animal is not behind the bars of a cage. He is in front of it.

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[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Wow; I just saw Gwen as a "girl" for the first time in the film, and he looked almost striking; maybe I can understand why people are calling him a "she". Still, this can't be good for the actor who played "her"..

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

"Still, this can't be good for the actor who played "her".."

See I don't understand why crossing the gender barrior is looked at as the WORST thing in the world.

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

As I said in a civilized culture we should refer to people based on their inward gender.

And I'm fortunate enough to have GREAT friends who refer to me as a she, and tell me they forget that I'm even trans, but they see me as an ordinary WOMAN. Sometimes I forget there are @ssholes like YOU in the world.

But I did get one @sshole fired once b/c he kept calling me sir in a store. so Yeah! We are getting somewhere, I mean if I'm going to a place spending my money, I should be respected, so he found out the hard way.

So yeah Gwen is a SHE, youre prolly just one of those stupid women who think we are trying to take something from you, how DARE us call ourselves women when we can't give birth! Well a lot of real females can't give birth either!

Either that or you're just a MORON!

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Yes, I'm an *beep* because I call a penis a penis. You haven't paid much attention to what I've actually said, or the timing of my posts, at all; I went from calling her a "he" to a "she", because I came to understand from watching her that she really is a girl. But, she still has a penis, so I maintain that she needs to tell any dates about this, or preferably not date at all until she has an operation, to be safe if nothing else. You ignored the first fact and deny the second, getting spitting mad. You're not helping your position.

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

"getting spitting mad."

Well I have a female brain and emotions, female mental hormones, physically I'm 5'4 and 100lbs, I'm Southern and I have RED in my hair what do you expect :)

Ok I didn't know when you were calling her he or she, but that's one thing that was pissin me off, If you say you believe I am a woman and believe ttansgenderism is real then you should NOT have any problem calling us "SHE"

My stand is pre-op trans woman SHOULD tell her partner. I would always tell mine, mainly b/c I want them to love me for ME the WHOLE me, and love me and treat me as a lady even though I was born with a birth defect *wrong sex organ*

So I usually ONLY seek guys and girls who are open to dating trans wome, UPFRONT, so they know exactly who they're getting.

So yeah Gwen should have probably went to communities where men are open to dating trans women. I'd think in Ca. in 2002 there should have been quite a bit.

BUT Gwen was very young and didn't know much about the world, she probably did NOT realize just how hateful and intolerant the world was. She was probably like me and KNEW there would be some jerks and @ssholes out there but probably also thought she would find a lot of really accepting people who the gender issues wouldn't matter to and who would be OK with with, she probably just didn't have the life expereince to know that the intolerant hateful jerks outnumber the good people by FAR!

But we DO need stricter laws, we NEVER need to excuse a trans girl for getting beaten up or KILLED even if some of you think she DID lie to her partner, since when is it OK to assault someone for lying? If we go that far, what's next, excusing MURDER for if a spouse murders his or her spouse for cheating on them?

I mean we should have laws or NOT have laws is how I see it. Laws should NOT be bent just b/c there are cetain things *like gender ambiguity* we put so much emphasis on in THIS culture, and laws should not be bent out of "social morality" just b/c we as a culture DEFINE somethings are worse than others.

This is one reason I love Judge Judy!

SO if a man finds out the girl he's been intimate with is a trans woman and physcially the opposite sex and he's soooo inraged he could kill her, or beat her, he needs to just WALK AWAY! The same thing we tell a man when he gets so inraged at a WOMAN that he could kill her or beat her up, society tells him to "WALK AWAY!" So the same should be told to a man if he's thinking of getting violent with a trans woman.
A when a man DOES get violent with a trans women it should be treated the SAME as him getting violent with a genetic female women, PLUS add a hate crime on top of that, which can carry 30 years max, I garantee you'd see a reduction.

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

I'm a Southern woman too, heh.

Some of those guys were just intolerant, but others were pissed at being tricked. Gwen may have felt like a woman, but she knew enough to know, esp. by then, that guys get MAD if they find out they've been dating a man. She did more then date two of them, she had sex with them; she put their organs in her mouth. That's incredibly intimate, and they were straight guys, didn't like men, and felt incredibly used and furious when they found out. They didn't see Gwen as a confused woman, they probably thought she was a gay guy who wanted to trick straight men into having sex. I feel strongly for her, but I ALSO feel strongly about respecting people's bodies and sexual boundaries; if someone forces or tricks another person into having sex, I get very mad at them. That, and only that, is why I understand the rage that two of those men felt.

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

Yes they were straight guys, and like I said this is probably where Gwen, at her YOUNG age, felt that she would encounter straight guys who would SEE her as a woman and not mind the fact she was born male, I guess when I was Gwen's age I had that idea too and I thought that, but at my age now I KNOW that's not the case.... I mean straight men like that DO exist but you really have to search for them, you usually don't find them in just everyday encounters.

This is kinda what puts us in a dilemma. I know you pointed out several times these guys were STRAIGHT and would not want to date a male. The thing is Gwen would have probably not had any better luck IF she persued GAY guys, b/c gay guys want MEN who are MEN, not males who identify as WOMEN and who hate their male body and who have a woman's appearance.

I think people just don't understand just WHAT a dilemma it is for us.

It's like we are too much of a man for straight men to like us, BUT we are too much of a woman for gay men to like us.

For me I'm more attracted to girls and I used to identify as lesbian, *but i'm bisexual now* But I remember thinking "Lesbians see me too much as a guy to wanna date me, but straight girls see me too much as a girl. So what the hell do we do!?

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] whitespirit26 12 years ago

Damn, that IS a dilemma. That's why I said strongly that trans people need to get the full operation; no one can live as a half-person. I'm glad you think Gwen was just naive, and didn't realize in the least what she was actually doing to those men. My advice to her would not be to go after gay guys, but to avoid guys period until she could make the full transition.

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[–] toking65000 12 years ago

I know for MYSELF, I am pre-op, and I've had better luck with bisexual guys and girls, I'm bisexual also, and like I said for ME it would not bother me to be with a pre op trans girl OR a pre op trans guy, I mean for me personally there are things about a person that are more important to me than just SEX ORGANS. But I DO also tell any would I would be with up front that I'm trans and would only seek people who are open to dating trans people.

Honestly I think pre-op trans guys and strong tomboyish girls are the best b/c I love masculinity in my partner like muscle and things like that, but just not too fond of penises. Go figure. That's one reason I identify as lesbian for the most part.

Just because we lose today's battle doesn't mean we've lost tommorow's war.

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[–] mizzhollywood 12 years ago

I think they should stay with gays too.

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