MovieChat Forums > The Other Boleyn Girl (2008) Discussion > So many problems with the pregnancies?!

So many problems with the pregnancies?!


So why are there so many miscarriages/problem pregnancies in this movie? The original Queen Katharine has multiple miscarriages, Mary doesnt miscarry but she bleeds in bed and is bed-ridden for months due to some sort of problem, and Anne miscarries her 2nd child...I realize that back then they did not have vitamins and great medicinal care like we do now, but even still, is it that hard for a woman to carry a child totally naturally? I don't get it.

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They lived in unsanitary conditions as far as female reproduction goes.
They also didn't know about healthy exercise or eating right. Also, you have to figure all those lords and ladies are in some way related to each so it's a miracle they had any children.

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Not only did they live in insanely unsanitary conditions but medicine back then was basically non-existent. Katharine of Aragon and Henry were married for over two decades and had only one child, Mary I, that lived into adult-hood. They did have a son in 1511 that lived for 52 days but all of her other pregnancies resulted in either miscarriages or stillborns. In total Katharine was pregnant six times during her marriage. From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Aragon

"On 31 January 1510, Catherine gave birth prematurely to a stillborn daughter. A son, Henry, Duke of Cornwall, was born on New Year's Day 1511. He lived for only 52 days. In 1513, Catherine was pregnant again. Henry appointed her regent when he went to France on a military campaign. When the Scots invaded, they were defeated at the Battle of Flodden Field, with Catherine addressing the army, and riding north in full armour with some of the troops, despite being heavily pregnant at the time. She sent a letter to Henry along with the bloodied coat of the King of Scots, James IV, who died in the battle.

Name Birth Death
Stillborn Daughter 31 January 1510 31 January 1510
Henry, Duke of Cornwall 1 January 1511 22 February 1511
Stillborn Son c. October 1513 c. October 1513
Henry, Duke of Cornwall December 1514 December 1514
Mary I, Queen of England 18 February 1516 17 November 1558
Unnamed Daughter 10 November 1518 within a week

Catherine had lost another son when Henry returned from France. He was either stillborn or died shortly after birth. In December 1514, she had another son, Prince Henry. On 18 February 1516, Catherine delivered a healthy girl. She was named Mary and christened three days later with great ceremony at the Church of Observant Friars. In 1518, Catherine became pregnant for the last time. She gave birth to a daughter on 10 November, but the child was weak and lived either only a few hours or at most a week."


As for Anne Boleyn, in her three year marriage to Henry, she was pregnant at least three times, though Elizabeth was their only child born healthy, albeit a bit premature. This means that Anne was with child nearly constantly throughout her tenure as Queen. Her finale miscarriage, of a boy about four months in development in January 1536, was the last straw for Henry and he began to claim he had been deceived into marrying Anne. Had she given birth to a healthy son, it's incredibly unlikely that Henry would have ever left her, for fear that invalidating their marriage would also invalidated his legitimate male heir. And if Jane Seymour had refused to sleep with him, as she historically did until they were wed, he probably would have moved onto a more obliging mistress and stuck it out with Anne.

Mary Boleyn was much luckier when it came to her pregnancies. She had two children, Catherine and Henry, from her first marriage to William Carey, and another son and daughter after she married William Stafford.

So yes, it was definitely difficult to carry a child to full term during the 16th century, and if it did happen the baby would likely be stillborn or fail to survive childhood. Not to mention the incredible possibility of the mother dying either during or soon after child birth, like in the case of Jane Seymour. If a C-section was necessary to free the baby, the mother was almost guaranteed to die.

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bacteria. no way to get rid of that back then. i suppose some of those women who had babies/stillborns/miscarriages continued to carry an infection inside of them. i read a great book that said henry stopped relations with the first queen because she was riddled with putrid infection in her ladyparts.

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Um, YES, it is that difficult, even now. I have no idea why people seem to think that just because maternal/infant mortality has declined, that it's nonexistent.

It still isn't guaranteed now, by any shot. I had two miscarriages before a medical condition was diagnosed and treated. It's easily treated, but was unknown back then. With treatment, I eventually got pregnant and had a healthy if premature child...thanks to an emergency C-section for a separated placenta which saved her from being stillborn and transfusions for me. Back then, my baby would have suffocated without ever being born and I would have bled to death in a matter of minutes.

My husband's previous wife would have died from her first pregnancy (breech birth, malformed uterus, baby couldn't be turned and needed an emergency C).

My best friend lost her first child at five months. The only reason she was able to carry the next three to term was because the doctor was able to give her anti-contraction medication.

My SIL had(has) an incompetent cervix; she lost her first child, the second was born at five months and died from a malformed heart; the third and fourth were live, healthy births, though both were premature and she carried to term only because the doctor put her on absolute bed rest and sewed up her cervix so the babies *couldn't* come out.

...and that's just off the top of my head. Miscarriages are very, very common, especially in early days of pregnancy, and *particularly* if there are health problems with the fetus, which might well have been likely for Henry and his wives. You couldn't even correct or test for a simple Rh difference back then!

If you want a sobering women's history lesson, get into genealogy. Some men had three, four, even five wives, all of whom died in childbirth, and the number of stillborn babies and those which died young is just heartbreaking. But that was the norm.

Some of it was due to total lack of medical care. Some was just due to unsanitary conditions, poor food, lack of equipment we take for granted today -- no formula, for example, no bottles, no incubators for children born early, no central heating or even guaranteed uncontaminated water. Add to that frequent conditions which may have interfered with the production of breast milk (lack of food during years when crops failed, etc.) and you see why infant mortality rates were astonishing in Tudor England.

Plus, if you really read English history, you'll understand why Henry was so frantic for a male heir. Granted, he got obsessed about it, but he had some reason. The last time the English people had had a ruling queen before Queen Mary (Henry's daughter) was the Empress Maude (Matilda), daughter of Henry *I*, son of William the Conqueror. Although she was Henry's designated heir (her only legitimate brother and only other legitimate sibling was killed in a shipwreck a few years before Henry's death), another spurious claim was fielded by a cousin, Stephen of Blois. The result was 20 years of civil war. England had just been through the terrible struggles of the Wars of the Roses; in fact, Henry VIII's own mother, Elizabeth of York, had a more legitimate claim to the throne than his father, but there was no way anyone would have supported having a *woman* on the throne.

So, Henry's obsessions make much more sense when viewed through the lens of English history.

In fact, probably the *only* reason Mary managed to stay on the throne (thus paving the way for Elizabeth) was that 1) the only other near claimants were also female, 2) she was the daughter of Katherine, with ties to Spain, and 3) she immediately married Philip of Spain, which at the time was one of the most powerful countries in the world. It helped her that between Henry and his father, they'd murdered nearly every other Yorkist claimant to the throne, too.

However, that resistance to women in authority also why I love the fact that Elizabeth I kicked all their assumptions in the nads. :D I've found it hilarious that, given what happened with Maude/Matilda (whose son, by the way, DID inherit the throne as Henry II), the best-known and most successful English monarchs...have been largely women. :D

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I thought I read somewhere that this could have been due to congenital syphilis.

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Haha, all this chat going on and it's the tiny comment by pivokocka that's the right one! Yes, i believe that Henry did have Congenital syphilis. It amazes me that the whole history of the throne and religion of britain could have been different if they'd taken antibiotics.

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ignore these four words

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Good point. I have been thinking that perhaps Henry had caught something unpleasant from his - hm - "activities" outside his marriage, and passed it on to Catherine (and perhaps Anne?)

Aspire to climb as high as you can dream

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Actually, I was just reading that it's now believed Henry VIII had a condition known as the Kell Antigen... it's like his blood (positive for the antigen) was the opposite of the women he tried to have children with (who were negative for the antigen)...

It doesn't affect the couple's first pregnancy, but after that one, the antibodies that the woman's body built up during the first pregnancy will essentially fight against the fetus as if it were a disease or foreign object...

So, Mary (his first pregnancy with Katherine of Aragon) was okay, but every pregnancy after that was doomed...
Henry FitzRoy (his child with his mistress, Elizabeth Blunt) was okay, but he did not carry on a relationship with Lady Blunt...
Elizabeth (his first pregnancy with Anne Boelyn) was okay, but Anne had two miscarriages after that...
Edward (his first pregnancy with Jane Seymour) was okay, but Jane died soon after childbirth, so it was not known if any subsequent pregnancies would have survived...

This makes a lot of sense to me... there was an interesting article about it on the History Channel and I'm anxious to hear more...
http://www.history.com/topics/did-blood-cause-henry-viiis-madness-and- reproductive-woes

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CallMeSeverus-I'm afraid you've got your facts a little skewed, at least regarding Katharine of Aragon's pregnancies. Mary, later Queen Mary I, was not her first pregnancy, in fact she was the fifth child born to KOA and Henry VIII. If you re-read that article (though I'm not sure if I agree with it) you'll see that they point that out.

Pregnancies and children: On 31 January 1510, Catherine gave birth prematurely to a stillborn daughter. A son, Henry, Duke of Cornwall, was born on New Year's Day 1511. He lived for only 52 days. In 1513, Catherine was pregnant again. Henry appointed her regent when he went to France on a military campaign. When the Scots invaded, they were defeated at the Battle of Flodden Field, with Catherine addressing the army, and riding north in full armour with some of the troops, despite being heavily pregnant at the time. She sent a letter to Henry along with the bloodied coat of the King of Scots, James IV, who died in the battle.

*Stillborn Daughter 31 January 1510 31 January 1510
*Henry, Duke of Cornwall 1 January 1511 22 February 1511
*Stillborn Son c. October 1513 c. October 1513
*Henry, Duke of Cornwall December 1514 December 1514
*Mary I, Queen of England 18 February 1516 17 November 1558
*Unnamed Daughter 10 November 1518 within a week

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_of_Aragon

Oh and also, it's Elizabeth Blount, not Blunt.


http://fictionisparadise.blogspot.com/

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Yes, it is hard to carry a baby to full term. And then many died when they were infants. There is a reason why people back then had so many pregnancies, they would have 8-10-12 babies in hopes 2 or 3 would survive to adulthood.

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Pregnancies and children: On 31 January 1510, Catherine gave birth prematurely to a stillborn daughter. A son, Henry, Duke of Cornwall, was born on New Year's Day 1511. He lived for only 52 days. In 1513, Catherine was pregnant again. Henry appointed her regent when he went to France on a military campaign. When the Scots invaded, they were defeated at the Battle of Flodden Field, with Catherine addressing the army, and riding north in full armour with some of the troops, despite being heavily pregnant at the time. She sent a letter to Henry along with the bloodied coat of the King of Scots, James IV, who died in the battle.

*Stillborn Daughter 31 January 1510 31 January 1510
*Henry, Duke of Cornwall 1 January 1511 22 February 1511
*Stillborn Son c. October 1513 c. October 1513
*Henry, Duke of Cornwall December 1514 December 1514
*Mary I, Queen of England 18 February 1516 17 November 1558
*Unnamed Daughter 10 November 1518 within a week



Though she rode north (got as far as Buckingham) with reserve troops, she did not wear full armour. As her recent biographer Giles Tremlett notes, there is no contemporary account of her having worn any. What she did wear when she started moving from London was some impressive headgear adorned with jewels, which Tremett calls ‘like an armoured sun hat’.


As far as we know, only two of Katherine and Henry’s children were named – the son, Henry, in 1511, and of course Mary in 1516. We are unsure whether any other child was born alive (back then it was the custom for infants born alive to be baptised and thus named), so we cannot verify that there was another son named after his father. There were some reports of a child being born alive in 1513 (so after Flodden), but we cannot confirm such accounts and there is ambiguity regarding the sex of the child. She miscarried of a son in 1514 but that child was not named as it was not born alive (and was never given the dukedom of Cornwall). The daughter miscarried in 1518 was also stillborn.


Same situation with Anne Boleyn’s children. She probably suffered two miscarriages after giving birth to Elizabeth. Neither infant was named.



‘Noli me tangere; for Caesar's I am’

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This is what I've discovered:
Wikipedia: Not always accurate...
LMS: Totally accurate 99.9% of the time. With an ALWAYS entertaining YouTube channel.

http://fictionisparadise.blogspot.com/

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I think fashion played a significant part too - women were severely corseted for most of their lives including the early months of pregnancy. A foetus needs room to grow and, unfortunately, corsets didn't give them that space.




Eagles may soar in the clouds, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.

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Actually, I was just reading that it's now believed Henry VIII had a condition known as the Kell Antigen... it's like his blood (positive for the antigen) was the opposite of the women he tried to have children with (who were negative for the antigen)...



Despite their desperate attempts to win favour for their theory, the two researchers arguing this have failed to receive much (if any) support. Having read their article (not worthy of the academic journal it was published in), I was shocked by the sheer lack of primary sources used. Their article is basically a nice summary of what Kell Antigen is, with some lines from Starkey’s and Fraser's six wives of Henry VIII books thrown in. They failed to include any original primary research (not one archive is mentioned and I doubt they have ever seen a sixteenth-century manuscript), and their calls to exhume Henry VIII to prove a farfetched theory they can't even support with contemporary evidence is absurd.



‘Noli me tangere; for Caesar's I am’

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Well considering that they didn't even know how to wash their hands (a practice that wasn't adopted by doctors until much later) its a wonder any of them survived.

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In those times they would cook with lead utensils - some think this was the cause.

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One often overlooked problem with royals births of the time is that queens "took to their chambers" about 6 weeks before they estimated the birth would take place. The movie actually shows this happening to Mary Boleyn - blocking up the windows and whatnot - though it looks like it's part of her "bedrest." It was actually normal practice for royals, including a ceremony where the queen bid farewell to the court, and considered necessary to protect the child from fresh air, sunlight, and "bad humours." Often no males were allowed in the chamber and traditional male offices were filled by women.

Considering that the "best" prenatal care in Tudor times consisted of rich foods including a dedicated dearth of vegetables, no exercise, no fresh air, and no sunlight, it's a wonder any royal babies survived.

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I've seen it suggested that the RH factor was a possibility.

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