cheating is ok
if i am smart enough to cheat then i am ok to pass. thats how it works in life my friends. what a wuss he was for telling on them. zachary bryan wouldnt of even made this movie if it wasn't for jonathan taylor thomas anyways!!!
sharei totally agree cheating is all right. im a senior in high school and i wouldnt have passed at least a half dozen classes if my friends wouldnt have given me answers to the exams. i plan on cheating in my english class on the history of england and my econ class.
shareIf there are any Star Trek fans here then you know that cheating is how Kirk passed the Kobayashi Maru test when he was a Star Fleet cadet. Heck, in Star Trek II he even mentions that he got a commendation for origional thinking because of it.
shareYour example fails sa the Kobayashi Maru is not a test given for a grade. It is a scenario to test how someone psychologically deals with a no-win scenario. The test is open ended and any solution is allowed to be tried.
Am Yisrael Chai and God Bless America
Well I guess we can see where the future of our country is headed. The reason he told the Commandant and the reason he was right to do it was because he had a little thing you obviously lack: Honor and not to mention self-respect. The Honor Code at West Point is one the most important things at the academy and that is exactly what I want from the leaders of our military. The right thing to do is never the easy thing to do and it isn't always the popular thing to do, but that doesn't make it any less right. Cheating is not only wrong, but it just harms you in the end. If you cheat on a test or whatever you are lying to yourself and everyone else who you tell how you did. What these last two posters just posted is exactly what is wrong with the younger generation in America, no self-respect or respect for the ways things are done or the rules or anything else for that matter. I'm going to stop before I rant more and before you get up my ass about being an old man or something I'm 21 and am graduating college soon and I have never cheated on a test and if I can do it you can too. I don't mean to lecture anyone, I am just speaking honestly.
share[deleted]
Self-righteous I think is what you meant. So basically you want our military leaders to be liars and cheats? People like that don't usually make the best leaders, I wouldn't feel comfortable following someone like that. If someone doesn't have the self-respect to do something that is hard by themself and become stronger for having accomplished it, that is thier problem. Guys who are going to be running our country someday should be held to a higher standard. Unfortunately most aren't and maybe thats why we're so screwed up. I'm not self-righteous I just believe in honesty. If you want to cheat and never learn or do anything that is hard thats fine for you, I don't care about you. But maybe you shouldn't have cheated on that spelling test.
shareIt isn't a matter of wasting time or doing a bunch of pointless work that won't have any implication on our futures, it's a matter of principle. The honor code is the bedrock of what makes West Pointers (and other academy graduates) stand out from the typical college student. The reason most cadets don't break the code is not because they worry about the consequences, but because they respect the system.
More than anything, in my case, I respect my country, my congressman who appointed me to West Point, and the taxpayers (including you, if you have a job) who pay for my $300,000 education. While you, in particular, may not care if I waste your money by cheating, I am absolutely positive that the majority of taxpayers in this country would prefer if their country's future leaders did not cheat.
But maybe you shouldn't have cheated on that spelling test.
Spartans, ask not how many enemy there are. Ask where they are.
Leonidas
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I think what you two are arguing about is exactly what this movie was made for. On one side of the coin you have the boy who keeps with the honor code. On the surface it seems like the right thing to do, but keeping the honor does have its consequences. On the other side you have a team that is willing to break the rules for the well being of the entire team. On the surface it seems like these boys are doing the wrong thing, but ultimately they are just looking out for one another the same way a group of soldiers in the army may take care of each other. I liked the movie because it made me keep changing my mind. I think the strongest scene is the movie is when the boy's father yells at him because he did the right thing. I can agree with both mallrat and jreimol in many of their arguements. I have cheated before and I do not think it was the right thing, but it was my choice. On the other side of the coin, I have many friends who have made a career out of cheating in college and it seems like the long term effects will be costly. The two arguements these men are making in this MB is not unlike the conflict of the characters in the movie itself.
shareHey punk, I'm a military leader and a graduate from a service academy. And you're not! So what do you know about the subject? It has nothing to do with writing english papers; it's about integrity and leadership and honor.
share“A Cadet does not lie, cheat or steal, or tolerate those who do.”
That’s a noble standard in theory, but I have sincerely held reservations about the way it is applied and enforced.
For one thing it is a very limited standard. Who is it that doesn’t lie, cheat or steal, or tolerate those who do? A Cadet! But the cadet ceases to be a cadet the moment he graduates from the academy and receives his commission. He also ceases to be under the code since he is no longer a cadet. If this standard is truly about “integrity and leadership and honor” then why is there no honor code stating that “an officer does not lie, cheat or steal, or tolerate those who do?
For a second thing, cadets are judged by other cadets. In one sense this is entirely appropriate. But it does carry a potential danger, and I don’t believe there are adequate safeguards against that danger. If a cadet is forced to resign because of a judgement rendered by his fellow cadets, then that judgement has clearly had a major impact on his life. Possibly a lifelong impact. That’s a lot of power in the hands of the cadet judges. And power can be misused. There is such a thing as being too harshly judgmental. Younger people can be especially prone to this fault because of arrogance combined with a lack of experience, wisdom, and well, maturity.
And this really leads into a third thing. The lack of “tolerance.” I’m not advocating tolerating lying, cheating and stealing, but rather the concept of helping someone up when he stumbles, instead of kicking him when he’s down. All people have flaws and even the best of us are tempted to do bad things. If we’re looking for leaders, we don’t need to limit our search to those who never fall from grace. We need to look for people who can overcome their faults and become something greater than they are now. We don’t need to forever condemn a person for what he is now. Rather we should look to what he can be.
And this is what I see as a genuine problem with the honor code. It doesn’t make this allowance. Certainly there will be some who violate the code and who cannot be reclaimed. And those people must be removed from the system. But not everyone who commits an infraction has gone that far. They can be restored. Unfortunately the code doesn’t recognize that. It allows no exceptions, no mitigating circumstances, no clemency. And I simply cannot respect a code like that. I even have questions as to whether such a code is “honorable.”
And finally there is a fourth thing. Violators are not the only ones who have flaws. So do the people who sit in judgement. And sometimes the ones who have the power to sit in judgement also have the power to betray the code with impunity. A particular historical incident comes to mind. Seventy years ago a cadet at West Point was “silenced” for the entirety of his four years at the academy. The cadet had committed no infraction. Nor was he accused or even suspected of any infraction. But he was nevertheless silenced. Why? Because he was Black. “Duty, Honor, Country?” Where was the honor at West Point then?
This action was not something hidden and thus unknown to the higher authorities. It was done openly by the other cadets, without excuse or apology, and one must assume with the consent and approval of the staff. During those four years there were thousands of cadets who participated in this silencing. And in my view every one of them was guilty of dishonorable conduct. Every one of them violated on a daily basis his oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States. And not one of them was ever charged under the honor code for his conduct.
I think it is good to call people to a high standard of conduct. But I don’t think this honor code as it has traditionally operated is a good code.
Cairo-5 said: "the cadet ceases to be a cadet the moment he graduates from the academy and receives his commission. He also ceases to be under the code since he is no longer a cadet. If this standard is truly about “integrity and leadership and honor” then why is there no honor code stating that “an officer does not lie, cheat or steal, or tolerate those who do?""
Technically, you are correct, i.e. once one is a graduate he/she is no longer under the code. However, at West Point (where I went and was an honor system representative), one of the aims of the honor system is to instill the values of honor and integrity so that a graduate carries those values with him/her once he/she is out in the Army.
Having been on the inside of the West Point honor system, I will tell you that it is very generous to the accused person: it goes through many layers of investigation before it even goes before an honor board (a sort of trial), and the investigation is reviewed by JAG lawyers to make sure the accused's rights have not been violated. Furthermore, the system errs in favor of the accused such that the philosophy (at least at West Point) is that they would rather let 99 guilty men go free than to execute an innocent man, with there being a sort of "scared straight" effect for those that are not found guilty but who know in their hearts that they did something wrong. And even if one is found guilty, the punishment is not necessarily the immediate boot out of West Point. Different mitigating circumstances are taken into account and many are afforded the opportunity to stay.
As far as tolerating an honor code violator, is that snitching on or ratting someone out? First of all, what they teach at West Point is that if you suspect that someone has committed a violation, you approach them for clarification, i.e. did the guy make an honest mistake with no malicious intent? If after you have approached for clarification and you are satisfied, then that's the end of it; it never goes into an investigation and it stays between the two parties. However, if a cadet has done something wrong and tries to take advantage of his ties of friendship ("come on, man, don't be a rat"), then that guy is not a real friend; a real friend would not put you in a position where he would require you to compromise your integrity in order to protect his lack of the same (as happened between Nolan and Holbrook in the movie).
So what's the difference if you have an officer that's a liar? Is that going to hurt anybody? Sure it is: what if I expect my fellow company commander to be in place to provide supporting fire for my attack by 0430, and I radio him to verify that he's in place, and he reports that he is. If he's not really in place to support me, that's going to cost the lives of American Soldiers who were expecting him to be in place to provide support. That's why honor is important and it needs to carry on into one's career as an officer.
In the end, a dishonorable officer is not going to make it very far in today's Army. If your peers, seniors, and subordinates can't trust you, you don't have what it takes to lead in the Army, and that's what officership is all about: leading Soldiers.
To paraphrase Gen. Schwarzkopf, the true measure of one's character is doing the right thing when no one is watching you. And that is what they seek to instill at West Point.
I appreciate the comments, especially coming as they do from one who has “been on the inside of the West Point honor system.” I myself never attended a service academy or any other type of military school.
I see no disagreement in our mutual desire for the principles of honor and integrity to be inherent in the members of our armed forces, and especially in the officer ranks. However I still have serious concerns as to whether the honor code, as I understand it to have traditionally operated, properly instills those principles. Since my views are based on my “understanding” of how things are, I would be glad to learn that the honor system is a good system that works more effectively than I had thought.
In my previous posting I expressed a particular concern about the honor code. That it is so rigidly severe as to expel people even when such extreme action is not necessary. This because it does not allow the reclamation of those who err. It does not afford opportunity for transgressors to correct their behavior and become better than what they were. However you have said that, “even if one is found guilty, the punishment is not necessarily the immediate boot out of West Point. Different mitigating circumstances are taken into account and many are afforded the opportunity to stay.”
That goes to the crux of the matter. To what extent is judgement and discretion applied, so that a thoughtful, reasoned decision can be made as to whether the “boot” really needs to be employed? I still fear that even though “many” are allowed to stay, there are still too many who are unnecessarily “booted.”
The example of the fellow company commander illustrates what I see as a fundamental problem with the system. It is unnecessarily severe because it tends to equate “apples with oranges.” A lie is a lie and people ought not to lie. Certainly it is characteristic of honorable people to not lie. But all lies do not have the same repercussions. If that company commander reports he is in position to support your attack when he isn’t, then that is a very serious and intolerable situation. But I don’t expect any lives to be endangered if that same company commander were to tell you that he brushed his teeth that morning when he really didn’t. Nor do I think that because a person lied about brushing his teeth, he must necessarily be unreliable in reporting his combat readiness.
But as I understand it, the honor code disagrees. It takes the position that the cadet who on one solitary occasion lies about brushing his teeth, must not be allowed to continue at West Point. That he cannot be trusted to command a unit in a combat situation years later. This raises a new issue, which I see as a further problem with the honor code. That contrary to its intended purpose it actually decreases the level of honor and integrity in the military.
There are many officers in the Army who did not attend West Point. They took different, and often less rigorous, paths to their commissions. Now when you launch your attack someone must command that supporting company. If a West Pointer who lied one time about brushing his teeth cannot be entrusted with that command, will it be given instead to an ROTC man who cheated his way through a civilian college? If so the honor code denied you the support of an officer of high, but not perfect, character, and made your life and the lives of your men, and the very success of the mission, dependent on a person of much lesser integrity.
I just use that as a hypothetical case. I don’t wish to disparage the many fine officers who have come from the ROTC programs. It is however a fact that most ROTC members have only to do a few hours of specialized classes and drilling per week. The rest of the time they are free to live the same easy lifestyle as any other college student. And they are not held to the same kind of standards as the West Point cadet, and sometimes do not have as high a character. If they can be commissioned after four easy college years, while West Point cadets of higher character are expelled for not meeting West Point standards, the end result is a lesser level of honor and integrity in the military, not a greater.
I really wish for honor and integrity to be characteristic not only of our military but of our nation as a whole. I would like for the honor system to be an effective means of achieving that goal. But I have genuine doubts as to whether it really is, and I must therefore examine it with a critical eye.
I'm a cadet at Norwich University, the oldest private military college in the country (think VMI or the Citadel, but older and not funded by the government in any way). We, too, have the Honor Code of "A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do." This code has been in place since 1951 for us, and it's one of the very first thing you learn as a freshman (rook). We spend a significant amount of time being taught the core values of our Honor Code, and spend several evenings throughout the year discussing the principles it is based on.
Not only is honor and integrity part of our honor code, though, it has been a part of our Cadet's Creed since 1903, as one of the cardinal virtues of an individual.
I admit that it is difficult sometimes to live by the Honor Code--what exactly constitues a lie worthy of being reported? Someone lying about brushing their teeth certainly doesn't merit a full out investigation by our (student elected) Honor Committee. But everyone inherintly knows when someone has crossed that theoretical line. And if any of the members of the Honor Committee feel as if a personal relationship with the person being accussed may get in the way, they will (and have) stepped down from their position to keep things as impartial as possible.
I don't know about the service academies or the other senior military academies, but I know that here at Norwich they just started something known as "suspended dismissal". This is what I think most of you feel the Honor Code is lacking--the disciplinary action that gives the occassional screw up a second chance. Instead of being outright dismissed from the university, the student who has proven himself to be a good cadet the majority of the time, is given a second chance. As long as they don't screw up again, they are allowed to stay at the school. In addition, they have to get up in front of the other cadets at the school and give a presentation about what they did wrong, and what they learned from their mistakes.
Norwich commissions a large majority of officers to the four branches of the military every year. Even after Norwich cadets leave this school, though, they are still held to the Honor Code. Fifteen years from now, if you are caught stealing, the school can revoke your class ring, one of the highest honors and a huge privilege that cadets earn. But it is not because we're afraid of what might happen that we uphold the Honor Code.
As Publilius Syrus stated in Maxim 265, "What is left when honor is lost?"
Well put!! Couldn't have said it any better. Congrats to you on not cheating; you are truly "head and shoulders" above most students these days. I graduated from one of the 3 service academies (Air Force) and didn't cheat. The academics were a "bitch" but I made it thru by guess what: Studying my ass off and persevering. Way to go; keep it up.
share[deleted]
Try studying, you dumbass!! Your generation is weak and totally worthless!!! If you can't get through your exams without cheating, drop out and make way for students that actually have something to contribute to this society. I graduated from one of the service academies with a degree in aeronautical engineering and I'm not a "brain." I got through via the old-fashioned way: HARD WORK. Your generation's total lack of integrity sucks and is frankly very disturbing.
shareI'm shocked that these last two posts seem serious.
Cheating is ok?
Sure, get a degree that you don't deserve.
Pass through school without learning what you are supposed to.
Everything works out fine, until you actually have to know something.
By the way, in the real world trust counts for something.
If I can't trust you, you are useless to me.
I was born in the house my father built...