I recently watched this movie and found it quite extraordinary on many levels. I'm recommending it to my family and friends.
In reading some of the other threads here, I noticed topics on religion and homosexuality, neither of which I found to be predominant themes in the movie.
In fact, I didn't notice any homosexual themes and only very minor religious ones.
Am I missing something?
The lead actor, Chad Allen, is gay.
shareWhich, of course, sets all the Christian nutballs off into a frenzy, spawning pointless topic after pointless topic that has nothing to do with the movie, as in the thread starter's point.
Yep, there was no reason for the religious crowd to get up in arms over the private life of the actor chosen for the role. Chad Allen did a good job, and that is all that matters.
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ok first off Iam a (Christian nuttball) and I disagree with homosexuality but I think chad allen did a wonderful job playing nate saint and his son and just because Iam a Christian does not mean I hate homosexuals and not watch the movie because he was in it , I saw it and it still was very moving and touching and it told what needed to be told that there is forgivness in Christ!
share"I disagree with homosexuality"? So you disagree with a part of what God has created? (I admire people who have faith in this fact but I have thoughts and that rather messes up the whole faith thing, just ask a catholic priest. Pardon me, but take a look at fossils hmmmkay?)
I can't get my head around the fact that people judge love between two people of the same sex, because love is one of the few good things we humans have. Throughout the ages humans have held love in the highest regard. Religion (and fanatic ideology) on the other hand has been the cause of most suffering since the dawn of man (think crusades, burning people at stakes, Spanish Inquisition).
So "best quality of humans" vs "root of all evil", am I missing something, is it not just common sense? Do you really think that God would condemn the (consentual mind you) love between two of his children and let narrowminded hypocrites who kill in his name into heaven?
God did not create homosexuality. Leviticus says that for a man to "lie down with another man as a woman is an abomination unto God." I don't understand how people can read that and still think that God finds this kind of behavior perfectly fine. He still loves them just as much as anyone else, but it is a sin. It's not worse than any other sin, but a sin nonetheless.
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The Bible is good in places, I agree, but it isn't worth living by every word in it. I used to try and reconcile both my Christian beliefs and my sexuality, but ultimately I came to realize what is real and what is nothing more than man made belief. There is nothing to reconcile. Religion would have me living a life of suppression while pretending that God will work a miracle and somehow bring about change. It's not true, for it is actually nothing but suppression alone, and I am not about that anymore.
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It's actually more to it that that. In fact Jesus said it is miracles you want, but I will not perform them, because you will still not believe. Faith is what is not seen.
share"Faith is what is not seen"
Actually, nothing but an excuse to dismiss the fact that there is nothing there to begin with. I can't believe that people don't see the obvious when it comes to religion and how every last word is designed to manipulate one into believing it or else. Religion has the power to create density, that much is certain.
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*High fivin' DoubleFacedJanus*
And that's how it should be; to live the life you want to live, not how someone else wants you to lead it. You can't get happy by following a book!
To dream about something and keep dreaming of it is a lot different from realizing the dream.
"*High fivin' DoubleFacedJanus*
And that's how it should be; to live the life you want to live, not how someone else wants you to lead it. You can't get happy by following a book!"
Thank you shibby! Believe me, the whole time I tried to change who I was, it was at the behest of people who simply couldn't accept who I was. I am a good, kind person, but that is not enough for believers in christ. It's all about conformity or exclusion, nothing more. I just hate that it took me so long to wake up and realize that.
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So, in other words, you pick and choose the parts you want to live by. Now that's a way to practice religion I could really get behind.
shareI see, so God did not create homosexuality? As I understand, God is alknowning, allseeing and allpowerfull. So how did God not have a hand in this then? He created us all, he knows everything about us and he can change whatever he pleases. So saying that homosexuality was not created by God is saying that God did not create everything. Futhermore, seeing as how God is allseeing and allknowning and what not, he did let it happen. So God allowed people to create a mortal sin and have it persevere throughout the ages. So God, knowing that people were to sin, and not repent (repenting and truely believing in God still gets you into to heaven as I understand it, which I find to be ridiculous and hypocritical beyond belief), let it happen. So God, who supposedly loves us all, allows us to sin beyond redemption and suffer for ETERNITY, in hell.
Now before we get into "Satan is the source of all evil" and such, God created EVERYTHING. According to the bible God is the source of EVERYTHING. Therefore the source of all good AND evil. If evil did originate from God then it must have come from a source outside his controll/sight/whatever. Which of course contradicts God being allpowerfull/seeing/knowing/etc.
So to say that God did not create homosexuality is saying that God did NOT create everything. Therefore God is either not allpowerfull OR God allowed such terrible sins to come into being which I find to be a rather frightning thought, seeing as how God should be be benevolent and such.
As I see it, believing in heaven and hell is just an easy way to get one to do the right thing. If you do the right things you get into heaven, if you don't you'll suffer eternal aganoy in hell. So regardless of what YOU believe to be right and just, there is only one choice: to believe in God. All you have to do is follow the bible and you'll be sure of eternal happiness in heaven. Now there's a nice way to strip us from a greatest gift: free will. Black & White, heaven & hell, this leaves no room for discussion or thought. What is the point of free will if we do not constantly re-evaluate and redefine what WE, being God's children, created in his image, think is right and just? Did God really give us free will just to follow a set, unchangeable list of rules for all eternity? No, God gave us free will so that we would be able to find the desire within ourselves to to do good, regardless of the consequences (heaven or hell). According to the bible, a gay man, even though he might alleviate poverty and suffering for the entire world, would still be condemned to eternal suffering in hell. If you really believe that is God's intention than what is the point of arguing? Your eyes are closed to what good and evil might be. You only see what a book tells you to see.
Good or evil is not defined in any book. The essence of good is that which we all feel and strife for. Every being has the ability to seperate true right from true wrong.
God did not make homosexuality, man managed to do that on there own. This was a great movie, and also very sad. I have read the Jim Elliot Biography and I loved the story line, I just really didn't like the book. THis movie gives more detail in what these missionaries sacraficed, there lives.
Also, That's terrible, I did not know that he was gay
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thine house." Acts 16:31 KJV
"God did not make homosexuality, man managed to do that on there own"
That's just an attempt to rationalize away your belief in God and the reality of homosexuality. Either God made everything or he did not, but you guys twist it into knots to fit what you want it to fit. How convenient for you.
"Also, That's terrible, I did not know that he was gay"
What's so terrible? That he doesn't share YOUR belief? I think it's terrible that you would be so bothered over something as insignificant as a man's sexuality.
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'God did not make homosexuality, man managed to do that on there own.'
Shirly knot on his own?
That's masturbation
did you mean 'their' back there?
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thine house." Acts 16:31 KJV
Why is the Mosaic injunction against false prophets ignored in the canon? Deuteronomy 18:20-22 should disqualify Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jonah, Jesus, and Paul.
from 'tough questions for Christians'
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/buckner/toughanswers.html
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Watchout asaflicks, for believers can rationalize ANYTHING to their point of view!
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God's plan was for Man and Women to come together in marriage to make a family [children. Man chose to disobey and seek the same sex. God's way is life. To continue. Homosexuals have heterosexual parents. That's why homosexuality is a choice.
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So What if a grown man ha a natural attraction to little boys? They really feel like they love the child and they feel like it is okay to sodomize the boy?
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I realize that my comment is highly controversial, that is exactly why I said it. Just to prove the point "feelings" can not be trusted, the heart is deceitful, which is the seat of emotion. Just because you "feel" something, doesn't make it right. I am sure my comments will cause a melt down on this message board but I felt compelled to ask the question, "When can feelings be trusted"
shareYour point is moot. Feeling and emotion have very little to do with determining what people should be allowed to do by law. Two consenting adults are not in the danger of harming one another in any fashion, gay or not, and it is therefore nobody elses business. Child molestation can bring both physical and emotional harm to the child, not just at the time of the incident(s) but for the rest of their lives. There is a huge difference. Besides, the whole argument is set up just to defend religion's hold on people. Never considered is the negative effects inflicted upon gay people when forced to live in repression, an existence that often can result in heightened depression and suicidal tendencies. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anybody and shouldn't be targeted as something to be done away with just because some among us cannot accept what is different from them.
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Joe Dallas, who started a well known reform Ministry for Homosexuals, who is a former Homosexual, has had great success in helping counsel those seeking to reform.
share"Joe Dallas, who started a well known reform Ministry for Homosexuals, who is a former Homosexual, has had great success in helping counsel those seeking to reform"
The problem is, there is no reason to seek "reform" as you call it because your silly religion dictates it as the only option for gay people. You guys pressure some gay people into hating themselves, then relieve yourselves of the responsibility of repressing those who differ by saying that an invisible make believe diety is the one who supposedly says it is so. It is utterly ridiculous. Conversion therapy is a sham based soley on the need to make everyone like yourself...a delusional person who thinks that their singular belief is the ONE and ONLY belief, and who will stop at nothing to invade other's lives and force change upon them. It's disgusting, the hatred and bias your religion causes. Yes, YOUR religion. You're whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" crap is yet another euphemism designed to relieve you guys of the responsibility of your actions. "Oh, we're just doing it for God, feel our love" Whatever. All I see is that you cause pain and misery to gay people, gay people who go out of their way to accomodate you oppressors out of fear that they will lose their family and friends over something as insignificant as sexuality. You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves!
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honestly, i don't know anyone personally anyone that is gay or lesbian, not because i am homophobic or anything, i just don't happen to. i heard a formerly gay man speak once though about his first homosexual encounter and i was heart broken. he was a young man in need of love and like many young people today he "found" it through a sexual relationship, or at least thought he had until he and his boyfriend broke up. he lived much of his life empty on the inside until in his late thirties he gave his heart to Jesus. (He later gave up homosexuality and married his wife.) he finally felt fulfilled.
i say all that to say this: it is not sex (homo or hetero-unmarried) that is the sin, or murder, etc. At that point the sin has already taken place in the heart. The bible (NEW Testament) says that if you hate your brother it's the same as murder, and if you lust after a woman it's the same as commiting adultry. we need to ask ourselves why we do the things we do. What are our motives? Are they lust? Hate? Selfishness? Rebellion? ANd you know what? If you're not a christian, you have made no covenant with God regarding any sort of moral obligation... I as a christian don't expect you to live by the laws of a God you don't believe in. I would encourage you to however, shout out an honest "God if you're real, than prove it to me". Then be open if you really want truth. What have you got to lose?
"I would encourage you to however, shout out an honest "God if you're real, than prove it to me". Then be open if you really want truth. What have you got to lose?"
Lots. Years of happiness wasted in the pursuit of being needy, weak, and repressed. I've been there and done that. All that is ever PROVEN is our own need to "believe", makings us all experience emotion that we claim to be that of the Holy Spirit. It is nothing of the sort. Shouting out and riding on the wave of emotion that we tell ourselves is "god" is a waste of time, something that did nothing for me but prolong my misery as a self loathing individual. I deeply regret having wasted so much time giving "god" so many chances.
"he was a young man in need of love and like many young people today he "found" it through a sexual relationship, or at least thought he had until he and his boyfriend broke up. he lived much of his life empty on the inside until in his late thirties he gave his heart to Jesus. (He later gave up homosexuality and married his wife.) he finally felt fulfilled"
A generic story at best. Many people have meaningless sex (homo or hetero), but that doesn't define being gay for everyone. Giving one's heart to Jesus is not required to be happy, as there are many happy heterosexuals who have endured the exact same thing as this boy, and they aren't Christian. The belief that only Christians are happy in the world is a deception painted by the believer to promote their truth as the one and only real one out there. I feel sorry that this man felt the need to conform as opposed to being who he is. I'd love to know the details instead of the glossed over version promoted by Christians...you know, the details of how surrounding Christians get a hold of someone who is hurting and fill them up with the false promises of how much better life as a heterosexual is, or the hell they will encounter if they don't change. Yes, they only tell the fairy tale white picketed fence story, the one where the newly married formerly gay man lives happily ever after. Ummhmm.
"If you're not a christian, you have made no covenant with God regarding any sort of moral obligation"
And if you were a Christian, the moral obligation still changed nothing about who we are or what our real needs are. Repression of our true selves is not trhe answer, no matter how much Christians like to paint that pretty picture of heterosexuality. The first step to being happy is to be free of the pressure to conform against your will to what others want of you.
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"My personal opinion is that you should abandon christianity in all its forms. It's not for you...You already know this, but when you say you (paraphrasing) are reconciling your christianity with your sexuality, I wonder why. What's the point?"
aleister, you seem to have gotten a wrong impression here. I am not a Christian in any shape, form, or fashion. I agree with you, but just to clarify, I am no longer Christian NOR am I trying to reconcile anything.
I sent you a pm!
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I love Christian rationalization. However, the basic problem of "all evil comes from the envious Satan" is that humanity's got one thing that, in essence, according to biblical literature, the angels did not, and which furthermore keeps us from perfection, unlike the angels, who were, by definition rather perfect beings. We got free will. Angels never got that, thus there is no way in hell (haha) that Lucifer, as he's rather referred to, suddenly got off his ass and did something out of his own free will, seeing as how he didn't have one.
Now, personally I don't believe in any of all that drivel, and I find it utterly disgusting that Christians spend half their day spewing their crap (yes, crap, due to the hipocrisy in it) about love, yet still passing on their "tough love" as they prefer to rationalize it, hate I'd call it, concerning homosexuals.
"God created our world. He created man, which, in return created a toaster. Did God create the toaster? no, he created man to think and make the toaster. same with evey belief and teaching."
Doesn't this sound ridiculous to you? "God created man so that man could think and make up every belief and teaching." Welcome to the world, Christianity is a belief. It's about as far from any kind of fact as there ever was. You choose to believe in it, others do not. Now stop trying to tell people it's the only way to live, simply because you seem to believe so.
Man, and women choose to wander from God's plan. God did not plan, or create non generation. If so, we would not be alive right at this moment. Choosing to seek only lust or fleshly desires, is not God's creation. By Free Will given to us, women and men choose Homosexuality. We were not created robots.
shareIt is in the Bible that Homosexuality is an abomination.
And from a different point of view, these actors were a part of something that was meant to witness to others. So by asking a gay actor to pretend to be a Christian is like asking a homosexual to be a preacher, which isn't right.
Here's why: First, homosexuality is a sin because it says in the Bible it is an abomination and that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. And when you become a follower of Christ (aka Christian) you have to repent of your sins.
Homosexuality is a constant sin, meaning that if you are gay before you "become a Christian" and gay after you become a "Christian" then you never really repented of the sin in the first place, because you aren't TRYING to get that sin out of your life.
As humans, we will sin. And I'm not saying that ex-gays will not struggle with homosexuality.
I don't think any Christian's TRY to break all other laws other than homosexuality. That is just one that is easy to avoid. I mean, you can lie in a second and be done with it. Or you can stub your toe and cuss. And then later you'll be convicted (hopefully) and you'll ask forgiveness and (try) not to do it again.
Homosexuality is different. It isn't a split second kinda thing. You have to put a lot of thought into making a life change like that and you have to constantly live like that. On the other hand, a cuss word can just slip from your mouth in a second with no thought.
I'm not making the other sins sound less bad or anything, just how easy it is to do some and how "hard" it is to do others.
So basically, they asked someone who is willingly living a life of sin (Christ followers (hopefully) don't try to sin. They may mess up once in a while, but hopefully they don't live a life of sin) to preach the Gospel through a movie. Doesn't that sound kinda messed up to you?
That's kinda like asking drunk to go witness to someone in a bar.
And further more, from a logical side, if we were truly created by God to be homosexuals, why is it that if everyone in the world was a homosexual the human race would go extinct due to the fact that we can't reproduce with the same gender?
And to the guy who said God created homosexuals: God created the person and they chose to fall into sin. As you said, God gave us free will. And homosexuality isn't a thing it is a way of life. You can't, in a sense, create a way of life...you just live that way.
-Chris
Ok, I´m gay. and I would never lie down with another man as a woman. I lie down with other men as men.
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Obviously you've never read all of Leviticus. It also has some passages about any child who curses his/her parents shall be put to death and that a man who lays in a bed where a woman has been having her monthly cycle shall be put to death etc. So, how can I believe that some things shouldn't be taken quite so literally? Let's think on that, shall we?
sharePerhaps Leviticus said something... but the question was not about what Leviticus said that god said, the question was about what god said, and I am yet to see what he/she/it thinks of the subject. In fact, all of the bible are people saying that god did things, but that, in no way, says that god meant any of it.
share"Perhaps Leviticus said something... but the question was not about what Leviticus said that god said, the question was about what god said, and I am yet to see what he/she/it thinks of the subject. In fact, all of the bible are people saying that god did things, but that, in no way, says that god meant any of it"
People use the Bible's claims that God inspired it's words as some sort of proof that God really said it. All it really means is that some people wrote these various books back in the day, and jumped on the bandwagon of proclaiming them as "God inspired" in order to lend credence to what they wrote. To use scripture quoting in a debate is the equivalent of saying "The Bible is real because God said it was real because the Bible says God said it, therefore it is true"! Circular Logic 101.
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Leviticus says a good many things, many of which I guarantee you do not follow. How convenient of people to pick and choose what scriptures to follow.
Which, of course, sets all the Christian nutballs off into a frenzy, spawning pointless topic after pointless topic that has nothing to do with the movie, as in the thread starter's point.
The person who wrote Leviticus (probably Leviticus) is the one who stated that, not God. I don't remember the Ten Commandments stating that you can't be a homosexual which is supposedly actual words by god to Moses.
I guess God just left that out, huh?
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
Oh, by the by, I've been told all the time by Christians that "God created everything." Which would mean that God not only created good but God created evil. If there's no negativity in God then nothing he creates (which he created the Angels, which would include the Angel Lucifer) can become evil.
So, to state that God is 100% positive is a fallacy in religion. No?
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
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<"God did not create homosexuality"> Well, I guess that NOBODY "created homosexuality!
Though the above comment was made almost 5 years ago, it remains one of the STUPIDEST I've ever seen on IMDB!
Thanks, my fellow American!!
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The Bible also says it's ok to stone people to death. Are you ok with that too? Stop cherry picking... Religion doesn't excuse homophobia: http://thebimboboy.blogspot.com/2012/08/religion-doesnt-excuse-homopho bia.html
Dennis Alexis
http://dennisalexis.com
The fact is He does condemn Homosexuality. He does also condemn Murder.
shareDwarfism is genetic. Nothing scientific has been proven about homosexuality. In fact today June Hunt, of www.hopefortheheart.org, spoke about studies showing the influence of a Father as a cause in homosexuality. You can contact her Ministry to receive more information. I urge you to enroll in a Bible Study class. There God's word will be shone. God loves you. In my own conversations with homosexuals I've found a recurring theme of a dsyfunctional relationship concerning the roll of the Father. This was true in our family.
shareWe could all discuss this for years. No one is going to change my mind about my feeling that homosexuality is wrong. Just as those that feel it is right will not have their minds changed. Until we die we will not know the answer this side of faith. If I am wrong and there is no God and no punishment for evil then I will never know. However, if you do not believe in God and his principles and you are wrong you will know - but only after it is too late.
Since this forum is for the discussion of the movie though, let me just say that having met Steve Saint and Mincayana, they had a heartfelt desire to get this message out. After all, God has used many people and instances to get a point across. Don't believe me, ask Balaam.
The story and message remains the same regardless of the tools. I don't think there is anything different in this versus Richard Gere playing David or Jeremy Sisto playing Jesus (or a demon in Hideaway). As a Christian I can only hope that the part Chad Allen played has a positive impact in his life.
I am friends with a homosexual; he is, by all means, a normal human being. He had problems with his father as a young boy, I believe that this became a huge factor in him becoming a homosexual. He is, like most homosexuals, irrevocably unhappy. I also begin to feel sick whenever he talks about his experiences at gay-bars; I don't hate him, or "who he is", as he would say, but that truthfully is disguisting, and makes me queezy.
No matter how you look at the Bible, no matter how you pervert the teachings of Jesus into a totally off-base metaphor to agree with your beliefs, the books of Leviticus and Romans still exist, and they both say that homosexuality is wrong. If you disagree with certain parts of the Bible, or the Bible as a whole, than read Romans 1:28, it has to say something about YOU as well. I have posted most of Romans 1:27 and most of 28 for your convenience.
Romans 1:27- "Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversions.
(28) ...they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, [so] He gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done."
Stop trying to present your book as though it applies to everyone. It only applies to those who choose to believe in it. The Bible is not the breathed word of God, and there is zero proof to back up the ascertation that it is...well, other than said books own claim that this is so. Wow, what a reason to believe it, LOL! If your gay friend's life experiences make you so sick and queezy, then perhaps you should ask him to not share the details with you. Certainly, I hope you aren't asking him to spill his guts to you as a caring friend, then hypocritically bitching behind his back. If so, please give me his number where I can let him know. Maybe he just tells you these things because you try to cram your religious belief down his throat? Maybe...just maybe, you overreact to things that aren't even that bad to begin with? Believe me, I have had experience with "Christian" friends of this ilk. Like I said, there is no need to twsit anything in the Bible, for it is irrelevent as anything more than some ancient writings by some ancient men who dreamed up some nifty ideas. Quoting your scripture as though anybody will think that it suddenly has any merit is typical of the blind stupidity that permeates the Christian religion.
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"He is, like most homosexuals, irrevocably unhappy."
Do you assume that homosexuals are unhappy because they are gay? Hmmmmm.....don't you think there might be a connection to the fact that everywhere he looks people are telling him/her that their very existance is wrong? That they are not as good as anybody else? Wouldn't that make it difficult for you to be happy?
and please, please, PLEASE....those of you out there who call yourselves christian and use the Bible to back up YOUR view....STOP USING ROMANS 1:27 for this purpose.....AS YOU ARE MISTAKEN!!!!!!
You can't cut and paste single verses from the Bible to make a point. It is hurtful and arrogant......and talk about false witness!!.....
Let me tell you...I am gay AND I am christian. I have been in a loving and monogamous relationship with another gay christian man for almost ten years.
Shortly after same-sex marriage became legal here in MA, our church began discussing whether or not to allow same-sex weddings in the sanctuary. It was a very difficult time of long discussions and debates for those on both sides of the issue.
The church gave out packets of information for all of us to read some on the pro and some on the con side of the question. When I was reading the "con" material someone quoted Romans. I immediately pulled out by Bible (which I must admit I have only read parts of - so far). My heart sank. I started shaking. I didn't know how I was going to do it, but I KNEW I was going to have to leave this beautiful gentle and loving man whom I have loved for the last ten years. See.....in my life it goes like this: God, then family, then career. Period. If I ever believed in my heart of hearts that God did want me to be in a relationship with a man; I wouldn't. I couldn't pretend to be straight and live with a woman....no, God made me. He made me gay and he doesn't make junk. I started sobbing and I was horrified at what I had just read. Finally; I came to my senses. Fortunately, I am a curious person and knew that I needed more information. SO, instead of just reading the couple of sentences that were suggested for me to read; I read Romans from the begining and paid attention to what was happening in the text (not just that verse).
It was about these people who denied God. They were worshiping reptiles and animals and birds and going away from God. They were having homosexual and heterosexual sex in a ritualistic act (not as loving monogamous people in a commited relationship) as an act meant to be against God. That is sooo sooooo different from what you people are trying to say that it means.
To use that as proof that the Bible is against homosexuality isn't just wrong...it's mean, deceitful and in my eyes, not very christian.
If you really want the TRUTH. YES - read the BIBLE. But don't look for single sentences that back up what you want it to say....open your heart and mind. Read it prayerfully and be prepared for the truth no matter what it is. I've had to do alot of soul searching over the years in order to bridge my life as a christian and a gay man. It hasn't always been easy and it hasn't always been perfect (as we all make mistakes along the way). Gay or straight, it can't always be easy.
TO me it comes down to this: John 3:16.
After that....we are all on our own unique journey to our own spirituality. To me it's a path to God. We all will follow different paths to get to Him or to get down whatever path you're on. I always try to remember what my mother always reminded me as I was growing up: "Each to their own degree of faith."
Debating is great. It's how we learn. - Let's all just try to get along while we do it.
Sheesh.....and to think....I just came to this website to find out the movie synopsis and decide if I should see it!!.....SO.....should I?? :-)
Peace!
Eric
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"The fact is He does condemn Homosexuality. He does also condemn Murder"
Actually, the FACT is that some men in an old book claim that God condemns homosexuality. Get it right and quite presenting your "belief" in invisible dieties as fact. One doesn't need God to know that murder is bad. Common sense tells us that if we don't wish to be killed, then we shouldn't kill others. Nope, no God needed for that, though you like to pretend like we only know this because of some omnipotent being that has yet to be proven real.
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OK, so what's the speed of dark?
Wow can anyone be over 20 yrs. old and not heard the Bible story of what God did to Sodom and Gommorah,and WHY he destroyed them? God did not create homosexuals! All humans have lusts of the flesh and weaknesses,such as an urge to kill when catching a cheating spouse,but mostly people of character do not give in to, or follow those lusts/urges. Nothing makes a homosexual give in to abnormal lusts,except a refusal to deny themself,and maintain "self"-control. If for nothing else,pure "common sense" should tell any human being how filthy, disgusting,nasty,and depraved homosexuality is,SHEEZ! God calls it an ABOMINATION,and so it is.
sharegod didnt creat homosexualty infact the bible specifically says otherwise
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.(Leviticus 20:13)
Religious beliefs give you no reason to disagree with proper proofreading. I don't know what "forgivness" is, but good luck with that.
shareOK, so what's the speed of dark?
I would say the speed of dark is null. In that darkness doesn't really move or certainly doesn't move very quickly.
You! Obey the fist!
RIP Heath Ledger
The way I see it, this is where the thread gets out of control and all posters -- whether Christian or not -- have clearly lost their sensibilities. The fact of the matter is: the movie isn't about homosexuality, beastiality, molestation, or ANYTHING of a sexual nature as a matter of fact. So why is it being discussed here? The original post was answered in the first reply. So why start the religion wars here? Why do that? Non-believers bashing Christian beliefs and Christians preaching right back at them isn't doing anybody any good. Whoever the administrator is, they should delete this thread in it's entirety.
Once again the folly of taking the Bible literally has been proved. These days we know that homosexuality is simply part of the sexual spectrum and is no more or less valid than any other orientation, heterosexuality included. But fundamentalist Christians still feel the need to make silly statements like "I don't agree with homosexuality" to justify their illogical and misplaced belief that the Bible is inerrant. Yes, someone in this thread actually said that they "don't agree with homosexuality", proving that Christians often don't know what the hell they're talking about when it comes to human sexuality. Agree with it?? What if I said I don't agree with spoons? What the hell does that mean???
Lets all move on and enjoy Chad Allen's talent as an actor. Wherever he, or anyone else, is on the sexual spectrum is absolutely irrelevant. And it's about the Christian homophobes got over their obsession with this issue. It simply makes no sense in this day and age.
> Once again the folly of taking the Bible literally has been proved.
I'm not sure you know what a proof is. You made two allusions to proofs, but didn't provide any except by assertion.
> These days we know that homosexuality is simply part of the sexual spectrum and is no more or less valid than any other orientation
Actually we know very little about the causes of sexual orientation. Data observed so far seems to preclude a single cause.
> Lets all move on and enjoy Chad Allen's talent as an actor.
You're a bit late on this one. Pretty much everyone moved on about 8 months ago, especially when Steve Saint praise Chad's portrayal of his father. It hasn't been a meaningful issue since then.
Bill
it would be much appreciated if you wouldn't diss on people because of their religious beliefs. It's extremely rude and makes you seem very intolerant. Some Christians are a bit more radical than the rest but it's terrible to label a religious group with such a derogatory term.
shareI do not see what his sexual orientation has to do with the movie itself - he seems to be very talented actor and to me as a viewer that what matters
shareYou just pointed out exactly why many have a problem with religion...it's pick and choose mentality. It is the followers who ultimately choose what they want to use in the Bible and what they don't want to use, then rationalize why this is acceptable. People are uncomfortable around gay people, for instance, therefore they focus on any scripture that supports their bias. If they don't like the sounds of a particular part, it is conveniently "not followed anymore".
* * * *
OK, so what's the speed of dark?
That's why you must study the Word and understand it. Faith is in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. Test all things by the Word.
shareIf you're a Christian, why do you insist on enforcing religious laws created for the Children of Israel, i.e., Jews? And do you, like so many, follow the law regarding homosexuality but ignore most of the other laws written down in the same book? Can you even name all of them without looking into Leviticus? When you use the Bible to support your own biases you profane the word of God; does that make you proud?
shareGod's laws were created for all Mankind. If you remember, He told Abraham to be fruiful and multiply the earth. God's plan was to populate the earth. I try to follow all God's commands. Yes, I can . Anyone could if they read and study the Bible, keep them in their heart. Honor, worship, and respect the Allmighty Father. Now, do you mean the Levitical laws, which now we're under the New Covenant? I follow what God has prescribed in the Holy Bible. My bias doesn't enter into God's laws and commands. The LORD judges, Christian's witness to help bring the lost, who don't know of the blessings that God has for them. They're being cheated by the god of death. The proud will be humbled, the humbled raised up. May your heart change. See the truth. The God of love. Not the destruction and deception of the god of this world.
share>>I follow what God has prescribed in the Holy Bible.<<
Be very careful what you say. You wouldn't want to bear false witness.
Do you believe all the laws in Leviticus should be followed? If not, why not? If so, do you follow them?
"Be very careful what you say. You wouldn't want to bear false witness.
Do you believe all the laws in Leviticus should be followed? If not, why not? If so, do you follow them?"
He can't explain himself without going into some kind of crazy rambling about how holy he is...obviously a sign of how he fancies himself a preacher or something. The funny thing is that he would use this whole "sex is for procreation" mentality on homosexuals, but would say nothing on other people's use of condoms/conraceptives. He's a typical Christian hypocrite who picks and chooses what he wants from the Bible.
* * * *
OK, so what's the speed of dark?
I know of the "Blessings", I don't want them. Am I still lost?
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
I am going to be extremely blunt: God hates homosexuality. He did not create it, He does not wish it for any of his children. But neither did he create lying, or pornography, or stealing, or cheating, or any of the other sins that He names in the Bible. He hates all of those things. None of these things are of his will. God is a God of perfection. Of holiness. He cannot be approached by men with sinful hearts. And yet people go around making these ridiculously general and incorrect statements about Him and his Word. Let me tell you, I am born-again, and I don't know jack squat about the God I serve. But should I? Would I worship a Being whose every dimension, facet, nuance I knew? I might as well worship my cat, or my Statistics textbook. But I will tell you, the Bible clearly states, in places outside of Leviticus (If you're interested, see Romans 1, among others.) that homosexuality is a sin. It is no more of a sin thatn lying or stealing; the real problem is that homosexuality is a lifestyle, and it is when people don't acknowledge this, or when they remain in this lifestyle, that God is troubled. There is however, forgiveness. "But I don't need forgiveness. That's a truly bigoted and narrow-minded thing to say." I hear the responses already. Let me once again be blunt: I need forgiveness as much as you, or anybody else. Every day I have to kneel before the feet of Jesus, ashamed of how I fail Him, ashamed of how I've let Him down. And He forgives me! I don't understand it, but somehow the God of the universe, the God who knows how many milli-seconds I'm going to live and the exact number of hairs on my head, is able to come meet with me, let me cry on His shoulder (which is VERY big; there's room enough for all of us), let me sit on His lap (again, that thing is HUGE!), and rock me as He sings of His undying, never-ending love for me. But I still have to go to Him. I still have to meet Him with a contrite, repentant heart. I need to know that i mess up, and mess up horribly. but know this, God is waiting for you. He loves you now, he has since before your great-great-great-great-great.......grandparents were born, and he will 100000000000000000000000 years from now.
Sadly, many born-again Christians get so frustrated with the claims that some make about Jesus and God (just read the Bible, people! It's all in there.) that they forget that Jesus sought out the despised, the ignored, the shunned, and spent time with them (me). I am sure you know of PLENTY of Christians like this. I am sorry that we are such lousy representatives of Jesus (I have always been taught to love the sinner, hate the sin, if that makes any sense). But I do hope that one day you'll be able to know the true Jesus, the lover-of-your-soul Jesus. The run-His-fingers-through-your-hair-as he-sings-you-to-sleep Jesus, but also the holy and perfect Jesus.
If you're interested, this is a website that some Christians who have come out of a homosexual lifestyle started: www.mytruefreedom.com (or .net, I'm not exactly sure). I do not mean to offend, but rather to love. I hope you, and others, know this, and I wish that more Christians tried to live this way. It is a hard way to live, though. I'm praying for you!
>>It is no more of a sin thatn lying or stealing; the real problem is that homosexuality is a lifestyle, and it is when people don't acknowledge this, or when they remain in this lifestyle, that God is troubled.<<
Homosexuality isn't a lifestyle; it's a form of sexual activity, when two people of the same gender get it on with each other, and when they do it, they're being homosexual. But when they're not doing it, they're not being any kind of sexual. I don't stop being gay when I'm not having sex, any more than you stop being straight or a woman when you're not having sex. Being gay isn't something I do; it's what I am. Native Americans knew this, and they had a word for us (different words in different tribes) that can't even be translated directly into English.
"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde
Please don't take this the wrong way; I'm just a little confused. So a gay person is only gay if he/she indulges in sexual activity with a member of the same sex? You say that homosexuality is a form of sexual activity, but yet you also say that you don't stop being gay even when you're not having sex. Sorry, I'm a little tired as I'm writing/reading this (1:18 a.m. where I live) and I'm having a little bit of trouble following. Please clarify a little bit! Thanks.
The problem you're having is that you're equating homosexuality with being gay. They're not the same thing. I'm always gay, whether I'm having sex (being homosexual) or not. Gay people are primarily attracted to the same gender, just as straight people are primarily attracted to the opposite gender. When straight people have sex, they're being heterosexual, but they don't stop being straight if they stop having sex. If our identity were defined by what kind of sex we have, nobody would know who they are until they got old enough to do it.
People like to say homosexuality is abnormal. Well, for them it is, but for gay people it's normal. Something isn't normal just because the majority does it, or abnormal because only a minority does. If that were the case, being left-handed would be abnormal. Being blonde would be abnormal. Having freckles would be abnormal. All of those things are normal for the people who have them. They occur in nature without any help from us. They're natural.
"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde
Thanks for clarifying! I'm really interested to hear your opinion on this issue. Were you a Christian or a Jew at one point or another? You seem to know your way around Leviticus pretty well. What about the rest of the Bible? (This is not meant to be condescending; I am just a very curious person.) What do you think of Christians? I often feel labeled as close-minded or judgmental. I wish that you felt loved by Christians. I wish that we were better able to speak of Jesus' love. It's just that sometimes His love is hard. Sometimes (OK, pretty much all of the time) even I am the disobedient child, and He has to put me in the corner and scold me, because He can't look at sin. Sometimes being a Jesus-follower is hard.
Anyway, thanks for reading! This could be a long conversation, if you're willing. Again, I'm very interested in what you think.
To be honest, and meaning no disrespect to you, Christianity as such doesn't interest me very much. I believe in Jesus as a human teacher who lived a long time ago and had some interesting things to say, but not as the son of god any more than the rest of us are. I don't believe in god as a sentient being, but as something approximating what George Lucas calls the Force, though I prefer to call it the Spirit. I'm a pagan, what some Christians would call a witch. The most I want from Christians is that they beieve what they want and let me and everyone else do the same. I don't try to persuade anyone to my beliefs, and I don't think anyone else should, either. I do try to know the Bible at least well enough that it can't be used against me; but there are too many inner contradictions for me to believe in it literally, much less to take it as inspired. So, that's my take on the subject.
"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde
You may find the works of Josh Mcdowell interesting, then. He was an atheist who hated Christians and their beliefs so much that he interviewed many of them with the intent of disproving Christianity and its precepts. By the end of his journey, however, he was overwhelmed with all the evidence supporting it, both from a theological and scientific standpoint. I believe that he felt much the same way that you feel, except he hated Christians with a passion, similar to the Biblical story of Saul/Paul. You may not like the books, since they are written from a Christian perspective (how he felt after), but they are interesting reading nonetheless. One of the best is More Than A Carpenter(That's one of the shortest :).). The longest is Evidence That Demands a Verdict, but that's heavy reading. Also, any book by Donald Miller will blow your socks off. My favorite is Blue Like Jazz. He is a genius. I can't say anything more about him. Aside from the Bible, that book is the one that has changed my life the most.
Question to self: Why am I recommending books? I don't know. I like reading, so I guess I assume that everyone else is as much of a nerd as I am. If you have any book that you live by or that really means something to you, please, drop me a line.
Hope you're having a great day.
P.S. I love Star Wars!
Hi Nicole,
I am a Christian like you, and heterosexual. But I will say that overall one of the areas where Christian love has come up the most short is in reaching out to homosexuals. This is not saying to condone the practice, but on a whole the church falls horribly short of viewing them as brothers and sisters who Christ also died for and wants to embrace. It is unfortunate.
Bill
I know. We're lousy at love. It's sad.
shareNicole911, I feel deeply sorry for you if you believe God hates His children, or that which he creates, like gay people. It proves that you simply do not know Him, and have been inf;luenced to hate by forces that have nothing to do with the Lord.
I pray that one day, His light will open your hearts, and more importantly, your heart.
Good luck, dear. I say this out of Christian compassion, love, and concern.
I have never ever come from the school of thought that says that God hates gay people. Frankly, because I am a Bible-thumping follower of Jesus, if I were to say that then I would also have to say that God hates me, or the person next to me who steals from a grocery store, or my friend for speeding down the highway. It must be consistent. It is not God who hates His children. Sadly, it is His people who hate His children. But, please understand that "we" (and I say "we" with utmost caution, as I am oftentimes very hesitant to group myself with some who would call themselves "Christian") nonetheless have never spoken anything other than what is in God's Word. Do you realize how hard that is? Do you realize how difficult it is to look a gay person in the eye, believing that God loves him/her unconditionally and unceasingly, but nonetheless having to explain that His perfect love cannot bridge the gap that is a hardened, callous, heart, one that I all too often have myself? He cannot take what I am not willing to admit I have.
As a Christian, and a very shy one at that, I am not that big a fan of confrontation. I do not like being responsible for causing hurt in others. And God's message is not supposed to be one of hurt. It is, at its core, a rescue story. It is a story of screwed-up people like me who are selfish and mean and prideful and spiteful and sinful, but a people that God loves anyway. But even I, a born-again believer, am reluctant to give myself to God all the time. And although God pursues me unrelentingly, He cannot take from me (and then fix, make His own) what I am not willing to give Him. That is true for me, that is true for all us sinners, all those who fall outside of His plan, which, as hard as it is sometimes to understand, includes (in God's words, not my own) those who participate in "detestable sexual relations", which God defines not only as those who have homosexual relations or sex, but also bestiality, adultery and fornication, etc. This is nothing that I can in good Jesus-following conscience rationalize or fudge the lines of (yes, that is improper English grammar; I'm not perfect.). I Corinthians 6 v 9-11 says "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy (me) nor drunkards nor slanderers (me, too) nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. BUT YOU WERE WASHED, YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, YOU WERE JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD." This is as relevant to me as a heterosexual woman, as it is to any GLBT, and to any other person on this planet. It is a scary passage. Basically, we're all in big trouble. But this is the point where I can turn from myself, and run to Jesus, and it is Him who I now follow.
I do know God. That is why I say what I say. That is why there will always be those who accuse me of being close-minded or judgmental or whatever else I have been called. I am truly sorry that there are those who call themselves who do hate, and for the many of us who are horrible, horrible, horrible examples of Jesus. But please, don't look as much at us as you do at Him, and realize that it is His truth, not my example, that should be the important thing.
Blessings in Jesus,
Nicole
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The only thing left is me/Needing You...
-Nichole Nordeman, "The Altar"
Christians tell me almost every single day:
"God created everything" - so, did God create everything, or didn't he?
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
"God is a God of perfection"
Wait a sec, a god of perfection but he creates man that sins? He is all powerful, and all-knowing but cannot stop a child from being molested? Sounds like more christian hyprocrisy to me.
How could you worship a god that, basically as you put it, hates his own creation?
He did not create it
Happens every time...everyone tries to outguess God's plan. God forbids lying, adultery, envy, stealing, killing, etc. Things that we humans in one degree or another do EVERY DAY. Who has committed the worst sin?
I have news for you. They are all sins. God doesn't like any of them.
Folks, remember to throw the first stone!
Cheers,
Enrique Sanchez
well what get`s me, is the way that christians cannot take other peoples point of view..they are right lol because the bible says so!!! .Christians believe because they are all scared and insecure about what happens after death, well welcome to the club, no one knows!!! and never will!!! do unto others as you would want done unto yourself....thats it!!!
share[deleted]
[deleted]
"Do unto others as you would want done unto yourself....thats it!!!"
Actually, that IS it. You know who coined that phrase? Jesus Christ.
Along with a few others here, I neither agree nor disagree with homosexuality. I disagree with unhappiness, useless anger, and blind prejudice, which a lot of homosexuals have, but I totally agree with the love two people share, which is less so with homosexuals, but there, with as much power, nonetheless.
However, I'm a Christian (please don't completely shut down), and the word of Jesus Christ is the most important to me. Strangely enough, Jesus both proved and disproved the Old Testiment. Eye for an eye? That's in the old testiment. What does Jesus say? Love thy enemy; turn the other cheek. Dwell on that if you can, or if you want.
The greatest thing in the world is to love and be loved in return. Jesus was all for that, and so am I.
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Books are God's gift to mankind.
You say you neither agree or disagree about Homosexuality. A Christian must obey God's Word and Commands. We chose to be in Heaven with our Father, or spend eternity without a relationship with Him.
shareDid you mean "science." With the lack of fossil trail and bird fossils, there is a great "gap" in fossil evidence to your hypothesis.
share[deleted]
"Any time Christianity is mentioned, gays come out of the woodwork to start slamming all Christians as intolerant bigots"
On this forum, it was Christians who came out of the woodwork to make a big deal over an actor being gay. You just hate it because there are those who don't allow you to spew your vitriol without exposing it for what it is. Once you have been shown for what you are, you make anrgy little posts like this one that try to spin it all around. Typical.
"According to the gay activists, we (society) must teach our children that homosexuality is not only normal, but desirable"
And hence, the entire foundation of your silly post has crumbled wtmalerep. I mean really, don't you goofballs ever tire of making stuff up? You just love going around spewing the lie that gay people will transform your kids into homosexuals, as well as turning your head about depression and disease in relation to everyone and pretending that it only affects homosexuals! It is unprecedented stupidity and the true sign of a bigot that thrives on blind religion and fear. If you don't wish to be labelled as an extremist whack job, then I suggest you stop spreading inane lies such as this. As it stands, you just proved your own opposition's point...my point.
* * * *
OK, so what's the speed of dark?
PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE THAT THERES A INVISIBLE MAN LIVING IN THE CLOUDS?
I STOPPED BELIEVING IN SANTA CLAUS A LONG TIME AGO, STEP INTO REALITY.
You know, I've always wondered why Christians in the forum seem to always stray to being Jewish. Have ANY of you actually read the teachings of Jesus? Helloooooo? It's called the NEW testiment! You call yourselves Christians and you're still acting like His disciples and not like HIM?! The Bible says for you to be like HIM you know, not like His disciples. Again, I repeat, didn't Jesus say things that COMPLETELY went against the Old Testiment???
Wow, that's ironic. Jesus is disobeying >>>GOD<<< by claiming some of the Old Testiment WRONG??? Common sense people! Just a little!
God, help some Your followers, please. They really need it.
I love you all, I really do, it's just most of the people going against the Christians have a point. I'm a Christian myself, a very devout one, but this kind of debate makes me feel, once again, some people just have to give us a bad name.
LOVE PEOPLE!!!! IT'S ALL ABOUT LOOOOOVE!!!!! ^.^
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Books are God's gift to mankind.
Vinya41, I will agree with you 100%.
Okay, here is the thing. I am 100% homosexual, which is something I have felt since the age of four. Because of growing up in a religious family, yes, I tried to fight what attraction I had towards some people of the same sex. I mean, get this.....all this time, I was fighting what I was feeling just because some Christians -- not all, but enough of them -- distorted my senses into believing a phrase in the Bible going against homosexuality. However, not everything from Leviticus is mentioned as much: how one should not eat pork; how women should not have short hair; how one should not eat shellfish; how one should not become a drunkard; how one should not wear two type of fabrics; and so forth as well as the part in the ten commandments that deals with stealing, killing, and coveting -- which people forgot to tell me, at a young age, means to envy or desire. Here I am now, still coveting for more money than I currently make per year as well as coveting for a bigger apartment or 4-bedroom house with 2.5 bathrooms. I mean, even the word SODOMY get wrongly used all the time which means anal AND oral sex. But if they are a Christian like one person who claims to be a friend of mine, then he will find a way to not believe dictionaries' definition of SODOMY in order to feel as though he is a truly believer of the Bible, although he fornicates and often get drunk as well as being the first one to cast the stone over and over and over again. As long as people have been on the face of this Earth, have religion been misconstrued. The truth of the matter is this: Some people are going to believe in one way and some people are going to believe in another way -- no matter what. So, let's stop judging one another and just learn to tolerate each other for the duration of the time we have on this Earth. As far as some people talking about documentations showing gays as having diseases and or living unhappily more so than their hetero counterparts, I would have to beg to differ. I may have had some unhappy issues happen as a gay man, but at the same time, many of my straight friends have had similar, or sometimes worse, circumstances. So, to make a long story short, ALL people, rather gay or straight, can -- get this -- have problems. Sometimes -- and this is just a basic fact -- we as people, whether gay or straight, simply make a mistake and fall in love or lust after the wrong type of person. That being said...
So far, I like what I have seen so far in "End of the Spear", although I borrowed the movie from a friend of mine who had not yet watched it, but will be mad due to the fact that the version he bought does not contain subtitles for the tribal language, so it's half-way like watching an unsubtitled foreign film. But the cinematography, in my opinion, is superb as well as the acting and the "forgiveness" theme in the movie.
Well, thanks for reading this and enjoy.
Actually, Jesus quoted and referred to the Old Testament often. He came to ful fill the Law that we couldn't. He expanded the Law also. "Peace not of this world, My peace."
shareHomosexuality -- the act of having sex with members of your own gender -- is deemed by Christianity and all of the other major religions -- as being a "sin," or a behavior to be avoided.
Well, no arguing with that, I suppose, but looking at the times in which these cultures where conceived, don't you think all of that's a bit outdated?
Back then, with really few people around, it was important to be straight. The tiny gene pool couldn't afford losing anyone, let me tell you.
That's why rules had to be made up to keep everyone in line, be it in or out of bed, and especially the fact that *all* major religions condemn homosexuality should be evidence enough, shouldn't it?
These things have their roots in the Old Testament, and I've always wondered how anyone has ever managed to live by both books. It's impossible. You can't.
Jesus lived among us to show us that the time of the old, hateful believes is finally over.
God is not a tyrant, nor hateful, nor is His word designed to make life a burden for us. Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, only his disciples did, and frankly... they may have lived with him, but what did they know? They were just people, marked by the time they came from.
That said, on to something else...
According to the gay activists, we (society) must teach our children that homosexuality is not only normal, but desirable.
What we must teach our children is that homosexuality is desirable to some people, and that it's nobody's business but their own. It's not our place to judge people, because bible or not, we're no better than anyone else.
We read God's words, but they've been written down and translated and altered by men. You don't really think the bible was conceived in English, do you?
There's a lot of room for error, and if anything is sure about man then it's the fat that man will make mistakes.
If God wants the world changed, He doesn't need us to do that for Him.
So here I am, standing firm in the belief that God has created ALL of us in His image, and that he loves us no matter what.
We're here to love each other in every way God seems fit for each of us, because, really... who are we to argue?
Wow. This is IMDB....right?
shareThe "times" are as now. Family, as a basis for existence, and society, is unchanging. Morals and Laws, unchanging. To say something is "outdated", is a lack of understanding. Truths are truths. Timeless. Unchanging. "If it feels good, do it." "It's OK because it isn't harming anyone else." Jesus Christ came to fulfill God's laws. In obediance. He also didn't say anything about Incest. Should that be OK? Of course not. That is a weak argument. God condescended Himself into man down to earth. The Bible says repeatedly that sexual sins are an act of disobediance. That our deeds, good and bad, will be judged. Actally the most brillant minds on this planet, studied the texts and have translated them carefully. Where there may have been a mistake in one translation, there are many to compare to find what the original author intended. God is the Author, the Holy Spirit is the Editor. We are God's vessels. We are to be change makers. We are His arms. We are created in His "Spiritual" image.
share"The "times" are as now"
Spoken like a true believer, just as they always do during any given point in history. Yes, we are always experiencing the "signs of the times".
"To say something is "outdated", is a lack of understanding"
To cling to past dictates out of blind religion as opposed to being open minded to what we now understand is considered being close minded, simple as that. This sums up my problem with overall religion, for it renders people unable to actually learn and become more, instead keeping them bogged down in the fear of an invisible diety's coming wrath. No matter what is presented, if it conflicts with their stone age fairy tale, it must be a lie of Satan...facts be damned.
"He also didn't say anything about Incest. Should that be OK?"
Seeing that incest can bring about deformity/mental retardation, it doesn't take an invisible god to use the common sense we all supposedly possess to see that it is wrong. It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that homosexuality isn't the big evil that results in horrible consequences as your biased doctrine has dictated for so long.
As for the rest of your post, well, nobody cares what the Bible says about the subject. Just because you choose to believe that it comes from an invisible diety doesn't mean that everyone else does. Basing your entire argument on an old book that makes supernatural claims doesn't make it fact, regardless of how much you think it does. You can make proclamations all you want, but it is only true when you blindly accept claims that what a man wrote was inspired by an invisible god. Most of us require a little more than that, or else we'd have to believe in the rantings of every lunatic who opened their mouth and said something ridiculous. Get it through you're head....just because you choose to believe in something doesn't make it fact. All the Bible quoting in the world doesn't change the simple fact that it is you Christians who choose to believe that the book is more than the sum of it's parts, not the millions of others on the planet. You can quote the Bible...well, I can quote Stephen King. Still, that wouldn't lend any credence to an argument, now would it?
* * * *
OK, so what's the speed of dark?
Thank you for the compliment. I see your pain. Actually, Faith, rather than religion, allows a person to continuallly pursue a clear path, of knowledge and to experience God. A deeper meaning of God. A deeper relationship. And I think this is what scares a lot of people from pursuing a loving, blessed life with God. Why people get trapped by the world's offerings, seeking a substitute, that can never give the fullness of a relationship, with Him. A path of love and forgiveness with repentance. Scary, isn't it? Putting all your faith in what is to be seen, rather than of what is seen, already. I wouldn't want to pursue a path of anger, fear and disillusionment, in pursuit of the limitations of man. What an awful, lonely feeeling of separation, from the Father that loves us so much. So much that He would endure, ridicule, beatings, constant questioning of credibility, and ultimately death. How evil we are. Who went without so much, of what this world has to offer, in order to try to save us from a life of despair, anger, worry and frustration. Thank You Abba. Our time here on earth is so short, and precious. Why waste it in a vain attempt to constantly seek what the world has to offer, only to be let down, again. In the blink of an eye, it's over. At anytime. I'd rather have hope through the love of God, in compassion, kindness, family, and friendships. As one other poster pointed out, the world conributes to a decreasing quality of life. Suicide, unhealthy choices, drugs, unstable relationships, shorter lifespans. That's why it is best to choose a wise and righteous path through Jesus Christ. May God be with you. Peace.
shareScary? Not at all. Being out of religion is one of the most freeing things ever to have happened to me, as I no longer rely on what is not there to get me through life. One doesn't need a make believe diety to achieve a life of happiness, and that is why you Christians get on my nerves with pretending like you are the only ones who are happy in life. Self delusion? Definitley. In fact, I know lots of miserable Christians who are always in their prayer closets calling on God because their lives are so hard, yet they do nothing to help themselves. They sit back, waiting for God to chime in and solve their problems for them. No thanks. I was a Christian for many years, so stop pretending like others don't understand the whole manipulative process that religion is all about. I woke up from the dream and now live in reality, where life is what you make of it. Christianity doesn't have the monopoly on how to love or forgive, as many I know can do that without invisible dieties. Too bad all the paths you speak of center around fiction instead of focusing on real life. the spin you guys put on your belief is incredible. I hope others can see through the layers of BS as I do.
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OK, so what's the speed of dark?
And that is why I don't primarily prescribe to a Religion. Sometimes it is biased. To be in the faith of Jesus Christ is freeing. To put all your worries and fears in Christ. How liberating!
share"And that is why I don't primarily prescribe to a Religion. Sometimes it is biased. To be in the faith of Jesus Christ is freeing. To put all your worries and fears in Christ. How liberating!"
Christianity IS a religion. How stupid to proclaim that you don't "prescribe" to one when you are extremely bound by the doctrine just as you would claim others are to any belief outside of yours. It's like a pot pretending that it isn't black like the kettle!
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OK, so what's the speed of dark?
DoubleFacedJanus,
You are right when you say that Christianity is a religion. As defined by the Webster’s dictionary is has all the elements of a "Religion". However, Jesus came to destroy religious legalism and therefore, religion itself.
So, I follow the teachings of Jesus. Does that make me Religious?
Anyway, I have read a few of your posts and you seem to have a very deep need to be right all the time. Are you lonely? Most people who have to be right all the time seem to be lonely.
What if you are not right?
"Your set up is getting tired, roll ze film"
"However, Jesus came to destroy religious legalism and therefore, religion itself"
As TAUGHT by your doctrine of RELIGION. And?
"So, I follow the teachings of Jesus. Does that make me Religious?"
Absolutely, though I am sure you'd most likely deny that.
"What if you are not right?"
What if somebody who makes religious proclamations could just once prove their own argument? View me as lonely all you wish, but facts are facts, and religion seems very lacking in them. It makes my point of view pretty much effortless to back up. Maybe those who need religion are the lonely ones who spend their time arguing with me, needing invisible gods to be their friends. Cheap shot? Yes, but it counters your ascertations about me quite effectively.
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OK, so what's the speed of dark?
Cheap shot? Not really, just intellectually dishonest.
Our main problem in this discussion is that we know what we know, we know what we don't know and, most problematic, we don't know what we don't know.
Of all the available information that the universe contains, what you and I actually know is probably less than .00000000001 percent of what's really out there. And what we know that we don't know is probably another .000000000001 percent of what's out there. Then there is what we don't know that we don't know and that is most likely 99.0000000 percent of all knowledge in the entire universe.
Having said that, the only defensible intellectual position on the topic of religion, spirituality and love is that we have no idea.
As for me, I'm okay not knowing everything.
So, how honest are you willing to be?
"Your set up is getting tired, roll ze film"
Out of all of that, exactly why is it neccessary to believe in the god of the gaps? Honestly, I don't care what you believe if it does you some good, but what I do care about is when you guys proclaim it as fact and proceed to indoctrinate more people based on it, or to clamor together and change laws based on some silly religious claims that are nothing more than the opinions of some ill-informed men from the stone age. We need more than "I bleieve it, therefore it is true" if you hope to truly convince anybody, myself or otherwise. Too many Christians make it a point to invade other's lives in attempts to make them believe what they do, but all I have done is counter the claims with simple questions that can never be answered..,answered with anything logical that is. You say that you are OK not knowing everything, but really, why do you cling to religion that offeres up answers to everything when you say you don't need the answers?
"So, how honest are you willing to be?"
I have already been honest in not knowing all of the answers, so exactly why are you asking that? Oh yes, the attempted spin game. As I stated in the other thread, and also did so yet again, those who make the supernatural proclamations are the ones that the burden of proof is on. I don't attempt to fill in the gaps with invisible dieties, so exactly what have I to prove or further be honest about? Even on subjects like evolution, I don't blindly back it as anything more than a theory, for making claims to fact when it hasn't been absolutely proven is foolish. You guys automatically denounce it based upon what? Yep, ancient writings from cave men who tell you God inspired them. The Bible compels you to not even be open to other possibilities, and believers buy into it hook, line, and sinker. It is that simple. By the way, is every point well made suddenly categorized as "intellectual dishonesty"? I mean, you threw that out in the other thread as well, LOL!
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OK, so what's the speed of dark?
It is in the Bible that Homosexuality is an abomination.
And from a different point of view, these actors were a part of something that was meant to witness to others. So by asking a gay actor to pretend to be a Christian is like asking a homosexual to be a preacher, which isn't right.
Here's why: First, homosexuality is a sin because it says in the Bible it is an abomination and that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. And when you become a follower of Christ (aka Christian) you have to repent of your sins.
Homosexuality is a constant sin, meaning that if you are gay before you "become a Christian" and gay after you become a "Christian" then you never really repented of the sin in the first place, because you aren't TRYING to get that sin out of your life.
As humans, we will sin. And I'm not saying that ex-gays will not struggle with homosexuality.
I don't think any Christian's TRY to break all other laws other than homosexuality. That is just one that is easy to avoid. I mean, you can lie in a second and be done with it. Or you can stub your toe and cuss. And then later you'll be convicted (hopefully) and you'll ask forgiveness and (try) not to do it again.
Homosexuality is different. It isn't a split second kinda thing. You have to put a lot of thought into making a life change like that and you have to constantly live like that. On the other hand, a cuss word can just slip from your mouth in a second with no thought.
I'm not making the other sins sound less bad or anything, just how easy it is to do some and how "hard" it is to do others.
So basically, they asked someone who is willingly living a life of sin (Christ followers (hopefully) don't try to sin. They may mess up once in a while, but hopefully they don't live a life of sin) to preach the Gospel through a movie. Doesn't that sound kinda messed up to you?
That's kinda like asking drunk to go witness to someone in a bar.
And further more, from a logical side, if we were truly created by God to be homosexuals, why is it that if everyone in the world was a homosexual the human race would go extinct due to the fact that we can't reproduce with the same gender?
And to the guy who said God created homosexuals: God created the person and they chose to fall into sin. As you said, God gave us free will. And homosexuality isn't a thing it is a way of life. You can't, in a sense, create a way of life...you just live that way.
-Chris
It's probably an exercise in futility, YoungBuck11, to even respond to your post with thoughtful, logical questions as you seem to side-step anything that presents a challenge. I'm thinking it's quite likely that you are quite young (hopefully not 11).
I remember having a heated argument with a friend about homosexuality when I was an evangelical in college. I brought up every issue you just did. Unfortunately, you've begun with a fatal flaw. The bible is nothing more than a group of documents written over time and copied endlessly, complete with scribal errors and changes. STUDY someone who's an authority in the field and not just your biased Christian apologists. If you're not too afraid.
You have to be very young and inexperienced with life to think that someone just chooses to be homosexual out of the blue. And if they don't, what a cruel god you have who creates someone with an attraction to those of their own sex and then tells them they aren't allowed to have a meaningful, loving relationship with anyone because it's a sin.
Wait a few years. Do some serious research on your faith. By SERIOUS, I mean be willing to look at MANY sources from valid researchers who aren't starting from one very limited point of view.
Or, you could decide to follow the entire bible and each and every word therin. Perhaps you could begin by stoning someone. Or taking your own eye out if it offends you...
I am a Christian and believe the Bible to be the word of God. Whether you believe that or not is your own problem.
Why shouldn't you have to provide answers from my point of view (from the Bible) if I have to provide answers from your point of view?
Actually, I can't start by stoning someone. Because Jesus said let the first who has not sinned cast the first stone. I've sinned.
And the Bible said that it would be better to take out your eye than to look upon things that are evil. Or something like that. I try to keep my eyes from viewing evil things, thank you.
And there isn't any way in the world to say that them casting gay person is wrong from a worldly point of view. Because the world doesn't see it as wrong.
But the views I expressed in that post above are straight from the Bible, meaning that the Christian's who made the movie would have to agree with what I just said.
This isn't a fight about whether the Bible is the real word of God or not. It isn't a fight about whether or not God is real.
This is a Christian discussion about whether or not what the producers of this movie was right or wrong...from a Christian point of view.
And no, I'm not 11, I'm 15.
-Chris
And no, I'm not 11, I'm 15
I would have guessed about that. Nothing wrong with youth. At 15 I was saying similar things. Just telling you that life DOES get less black and white as you get older. You gain some perspective.
Why shouldn't you have to provide answers from my point of view (from the Bible) if I have to provide answers from your point of view?
??? I was stating that I wasn't sure you would even address a challenging question since you have ignored the whole issue of predestination in other posts. What biblical answer did you want from me? I have studied your christian apologists as well as various other true scholars on the history of the bible. I have come to believe it's nothing more than human writings. No more inspired by god than any writing.
This isn't a fight about whether the Bible is the real word of God or not. It isn't a fight about whether or not God is real.
When you come out and say "the bible says this" so it is so, you are arguing the validity of the book. I do not think because the bible says anything, that makes it real.
You obviously get something out of your beliefs. Good for you. Idealism and passion can be a good thing. Just make sure you don't close yourself off to the "outside world". If you aren't careful you can get so sucked into the evangelical machine that you can't see anything else.
"Why shouldn't you have to provide answers from my point of view (from the Bible) if I have to provide answers from your point of view? "
When you go around professing something as the one and only truth, basing your entire argument on this belief, then you had better be ready to prove what you say is true. Yes, those who make the proclamation are the ones the burden of truth falls on. It isn't a hard concept to grasp, and certainly at fifteen years of age you can understand this.
"This isn't a fight about whether the Bible is the real word of God or not. It isn't a fight about whether or not God is real"
That's a spin tactic and you know it. The Bible is the only "proof" you have that God is real, so I definitely say that this is EXACTLY about whether the Bible is true or not. If you aren't ready to back yourself up with something that can actually support your proclamations, then why are you here debating? Making proclamations about truth do not suddenly make it real. You need to support what you say. All you have to accomplish this with is the Bible, so don't suddenly try to dismiss that when faced with not being able to prove that it has merit regarding the supernatural claim of god. Just a few sentences up, you were referencing what the Bible says. In the previous post, your entire little point about homosexuality is purely Bible based. Now, explain to me exactly why you try to suddenly pretend like the Bible's truth shouldn't be debated? Obviously, you want your cake and wish to eat it too! LOL!
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OK, so what's the speed of dark?
Of course the Bible's true -- in that aspect. There's 6 billion people on this planet, and we didn't get this far by sticking it in each other's rear ends.
I didn't need a Bible to make that observation, now did I?
wow....i too am a christian, and i grew up in a very conservative Christian home and believed homosexuality to be disgusting, evil, etc. all those stereotypical things we're taught to believe in. However, 3 years ago i found out my older sister is a lesbian. That shocked me, and I chose to go to a college that would feel the same way as i do on the entire topic of homosexuality. I still struggle with my sister's homosexuality, and this is a tough topic to understand, at least for me. I am not homophobic. I don't cringe or shrink away in disgust when I hear about it. I am simply on the fence when it comes to homosexuality now. I still believe it to be a sin, that's my own personal belief. My perspective on this issue is that every human is a sinner. We all sin whether it be a small lie, cheating on a test, stealing a candy bar, murdering, etc. to whatever extent it may be. We all have this tendency to do bad things. Why do we lie? Why do we want to cheat on that test even though we're told not to? Why do we do these "bad" things? I believe we do have an inclination toward this behavior. However, we sin when we choose to act on that feeling or tendency. Homosexuality is like this in a way. God did not create it, I believe it is a result of the fall of man. Sin evolved(and yes i believe in evolution) to become apart of our human makeup. NOw that doesn't mean we can blow it off and say "well, its how we're made now, it isn't my fault." We sin when we choose to act on something. however, the topic of homosexuality is so grand and there are so many different sides/perspectives to it, its overwhelming at times. I don't know how to address it, and so I'm still figuring it all out. The next thing is gay marriage. Marriage is a religious term, but i feel that homosexuals should be allowed to have the same rights as married people. They should not be discriminated against, they should be loved. Its not my place to change how they live their life. Only God can do that. I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on you or anything, I'm not saying any of your differing beliefs are wrong. I am simply stating how i feel, and I'm still figuring out where I stand on certain issues. All i know is what I believe in. i don't even think this post makes any sense, but i felt i should say something.
shareThanks, yangsta, for at least being open to possibilities. What a refreshing response from a believer these days. Being gay myself, I none-the-less was raised to despise the gay community and look upon them with disgust. People hate to ademit it, but religion most definintely endorses these types of feelings in humanity, though not being solely responsible for it. It is merely a way to justify feelings of bigotry that we know are wrong.
"That shocked me, and I chose to go to a college that would feel the same way as i do on the entire topic of homosexuality"
What are you saying, that you went to/are currently attending a religious college?
"However, we sin when we choose to act on that feeling or tendency. Homosexuality is like this in a way. God did not create it, I believe it is a result of the fall of man"
I honestly think that is a cop out, and excuse to make god out to be all perfect. If sin is running so rampant and making things so much worse, then why doesn't god do something about it? He doesn't, and he never will. I came to realize that religion in general is merely an attempt by early man to explain what is unknown. They threw in gay people along the way because it wasn't as common and was deemed a terrible thing. There must be "some" reason, so let's make it an abomination to god. There's your proof.
"Sin evolved(and yes i believe in evolution) to become apart of our human makeup. NOw that doesn't mean we can blow it off and say 'well, its how we're made now, it isn't my fault.' "
If homosexuality was indeed the sin that people claim it to be, then it would be something that could be overcome with more than mere repression. Yes, all that religion ever manages to accomplish is making people repress their true nature. It works for a while, but ultimately, that person is and always will be gay. Repression is never a good thing, right down to the stress which causes physical health problems. Your general belief makes people live a unfulfilling life of lies that leads to depression among other things. Having been a believer for a majority of my life, as well as a voluntarily repressed homosexual who tried for years to ignore and overcome it with "god", I think I know a bit about it. Homosexuality has always maintained itself as in the gene pool, never growing smaller or larger in relation to the overall population. It's there and always has been. Denying who you are at heart is detrimental to a person. No good comes out of this need the religious have to force people to alter their sexuality.
"We sin when we choose to act on something"
It all depends on your definition of sin. There is nothing wrong with being with the person you love. There are behaviors that are morally wrong and harmful, but they aren't behaviors exclusive to gay people. Multiple partners, cheating, and many other actions cause harm in the form of disease as well as emotional hurt, but again, that applies to everyone. Actions have consequences, but does sexuality and the decision to embrace it as truth fall into the category of a bad choice? I hardly think so. Acting responsibly is the key here, not religion or god.
"the topic of homosexuality is so grand and there are so many different sides/perspectives to it, its overwhelming at times. I don't know how to address it, and so I'm still figuring it all out"
Yes, it is overwhelming, but at least you aren't closed to looking at all possible points of view. By the way, all I am doing in this post is offering my point of view, so please don't take what I say personally.
"Marriage is a religious term"
Though I appreciate your being open about supporting gay marriage despite your own personal views on homosexuality, I have a question...are you compelled to think of marriage as a religious term when athiests get married, or people outside of your religion, or any marriage performed by the state? Marriage is not really restricted to or owned by any religion as far as I can see. I am just curious.
"i don't even think this post makes any sense, but i felt i should say something"
Your post was just fine.
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OK, so what's the speed of dark?
"I came to realize that religion in general is merely an attempt by early man to explain what is unknown."
I am anticipating an angry response to this...
As a born-again Christian, I have to agree with this. Religion IS man's attempt to get to God. That said, Christianity, true Christianity, the Chrisianity that says we can be friends with God and not merely followers of Him, is not a religion. I can't do anything to get to God. Christianity is a relationship with a God that I cannot even begin to understand. It is a relationship. God came to me; I am too stupid and weak to be able to go to Him.
Please, don't put everybody who call themselves "Christians" under the same umbrella. (If you read some of my past posts on this thread, you can see what I believe.) True, this might be just another "Christian attempt/cop out way to justify feelings of bigotry that we know are wrong", but I don't think you really believe that. I think you don't have a full picture of Jesus. Get to know Him sometime; He just might surprise you.
Hope you're having a great day.
"As a born-again Christian, I have to agree with this. Religion IS man's attempt to get to God"
Well nicole911, I am glad that you agree that religion is man's attempt to explain away the unknown or to "get to god". Now, you just need to realize the simple fact that Christianity is nothing more than yet another of many religions on the Earth. Yes, that really is the truth. Guess what? Muslims believe their religion is the truth just as adamantly as you believe that yours is the one and only truth. Guess what else? Belief doesn't make it true. Have you ever read the definition of the word belief? Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something. It's just a point of view. You're belief isn't any greater than the next follower of some other religion, no matter how much you tell yourself that it is. Stand back and take an objective and HONEST look at people's devotion to various religions and you'll see what I mean. In fact, you may be surprised that some other religions garner greater devotion from their followers than a great many christians offer to their god.
"Christianity, true Christianity, the Chrisianity that says we can be friends with God and not merely followers of Him, is not a religion. I can't do anything to get to God. Christianity is a relationship with a God that I cannot even begin to understand. It is a relationship"
Everyone wants to be right, and everyone proclaims to be right. You are no different. This whole "christianity is a relationship, not a religion" mentality is a perfect example. Let's look at a few definitions of the word religion, shall we:
1) A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies. 2) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 3) A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4) A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. 5) A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects. So, exactly what is "NOT a relgion" when speaking about christianity??
I am sorry that you have had such an exposure to Christianity, if I may call it an "exposure." I'll have you know, and this is in no way to make myself seem better or an attempt to rationalize my faith, but I have looked at many religions. I have read books and articles, both from a Christian perspective and the perspective of a person with that faith, about the differences between faiths, so please don't insult me by saying that I am in a state of denial. This past Spring I lost a Muslim friend named Samiya; she was hit by a car and died shortly thereafter. I went to her house for a memorial service (as is custom), took off my shoes before entering (as is custom) and sat down with others to remember her life. While sitting in her family's house, even when speaking directly to her mother, I felt a physical presence - not a good one - just hit me. My body felt so heavy. It was a tangible pressure (and don't tell me that this is grief; I just attended the memorial service of a young Christian woman who died after a 6-year battle with dysautonomia, and felt, in addition to the expected grief, a joy over her incredible life.) There was a marked difference in my feelings when grieving the deaths of each, one that had nothing to do with my personal opinion; I would not choose to feel the way I did in Samiya's house again.
Now, you say that "...you may be surprised that some other religions garner greater devotion from their followers than a great many christians offer to their god..." Yep. Other religions impose certain requirements on their followers (the pillars of Islam, etc.). In Christianity, there are some things that God commands us to do, such as be baptized, but it is to be a joy. And can you honestly measure the depth, fervence, and love that is my friendship with Jesus Christ? Does any religion offer that? No. Other religions have a, b, and c..., a list of requirements that their followers must complete before they can be considered "good." Jesus does command us to live by certain rules (e.g. the greatest commandment: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and then love your neighbor as yourself," which I think is far too often ignored.), but it is never by our own standards or our own merits. It is not how many times I go to Mecca, but the honesty and brokenness of my spirit when I approach God that matters. It is not how much money I give to the needy, but my attitude that God takes pleasure in. I think that you, even in your experience as a Christian, have missed the very simple and yet difficult to understand concept that Christianity is really a friendship with God. That is not my belief. That is not my opinion. That is not my attempt to rationalize anything. That is truth. Truth is defined as
"actuality or actual existence; an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude; fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience"
To you, my belief may not be greater than the "next follower of some other religion." That is not for you to judge, and frankly, I don't much care for what you think of my beliefs. But I will unashamedly and unwaveringly tell you that my truth is greater, because it is not my truth. It's God truth.
Also, you say that "If god was really all that, then nobody would ever leave your relgion after knowing the truth." Puleeeeeze. That's as good as me saying that if your homosexuality was so good, then people wouldn't leave that lifestyle. Are you offended by that? (Check _Y or _N, and then join the "yes" club.) It is a non sequiter if I've ever heard one. Please answer this then: how many atheists have set out to disprove Christianity only to be overwhelmed by the evidence of Who Jesus is? If you want resources, I have them. Try Josh MacDowell and CS Lewis as a starter.
I want to leave you with a couple of challenges, if you're up for them:
1) Read Blue Like Jazz and/or Searching For God Knows What, both by Donald Miller. He might just blow your socks off.
2) Think of what you understand Jesus to be: Is he a liar, a lunatic, Lucifer, or Lord?
If you have anything for me to read, I'm up for the challenge. Christians aren't close-minded, as many may think; We just get frustrated with the same baseless arguments.
"I have read books and articles, both from a Christian perspective and the perspective of a person with that faith, about the differences between faiths, so please don't insult me by saying that I am in a state of denial"
If you looked into many religions, then you chose the one that best lines up with what you want out of it, correct? Did you do this with the intention of viewing it from others' perspective, or was it all in an effort to prove to yourself that what you wanted was in fact true? I suspect the latter, as we humans have this need to prove ourselves as absolutely right. Yes, I do it just as well, hence our little debate. As long as you refrain from assuming that I don't have a clue about the real Jesus, I will refrain from accusing you of being in a state of denial. I am sorry if that comment offended you, but realize that your own assumption was offensive to me as well. I am not trying to be mean in what I say, though at the same time I realize that there is no real way to address my own thoughts without sounding as though I am being malicious. From this point forward, let us simply realize that we are speaking from our own points of view and nothing is intened to be taken in any kind of personal way.
"This past Spring I lost a Muslim friend named Samiya...While sitting in her family's house, even when speaking directly to her mother, I felt a physical presence - not a good one - just hit me...I just attended the memorial service of a young Christian woman who died after a 6-year battle with dysautonomia, and felt...a joy over her incredible life."
You go into a home in which the belief has already been predetermined in your mind as something wrong and against the true god and then think it means something that you feel a presence that is not good? Furthering this, you predetermined that your fellow christian friend was of the one and only correct faith, so obviously you did not experience a feeling that you deem to be physically bad, but rather the opposite. That says to me that it is all your own mind making you feel these things, all due to what you believe and what you expect. It's absoluetly no different than how I experienced all of those awesome moments with god in my year or so as a "holy roller" (how embarrassing), all because it is what I wanted to happen and expected to happen. The same goes for the crowds at Benny Hinn concerts, for they want to believe it and therefore feel the power. Large organized religious events or small interpersonal scenarios, the mind is a powerful thing and we can easily convince ourselves that what we believe is the truth. There is nothing supernatural or spiritual about it, nothing at all. I am sorry about the loss of your friend, but the perceived feelings of despair that you described above were all your own, created by your own religion and your belief in it. Whatever the case, I applaud you for being friends with people who differ from your own belief.
"I think that you, even in your experience as a Christian, have missed the very simple and yet difficult to understand concept that Christianity is really a friendship with God. That is not my belief. That is not my opinion. That is not my attempt to rationalize anything. That is truth. Truth is defined as"
I did not miss the friendship angle of the relationship with god. Like I said, I've been there and done that. Your stating this again proves my point about this being an automatic response to anyone who has been and no longer is in your shoes regarding belief. You simply refuse to believe that we could ever walk away from it after having it. It's only truth from your perspective. It definitely IS your opinion...your belief, as you have yet to offer anything that would make it more. Of course, you are entitled to think however you like on the matter.
"Other religions impose certain requirements on their followers (the pillars of Islam, etc.). In Christianity, there are some things that God commands us to do, such as be baptized, but it is to be a joy"
As for other religions, the differences in the way they are devoted matters little. I am talking about belief in and of itself, and they are as devoted to what is required of them as you are to what is required of you. Though the requirements are different, they are still things you have to do in order to spend eternity with your god. All religion has the scare tactic of hell or an equivalent if you do not conform. All of them. There is not as much difference between your religion and theirs as you'd like to make out. It's all ultimately a required set of beliefs that must be adhered to in order to avoid an eternity in something horribly scary like hell. Please don't assume that others who are devoted to their belief don't find it a joy to go through their own form of requirements, all for the exact same reason you are doing it...eternal reward and avoidance of punishment. Some gladly suffer ritual for what they think they are going to get in the afterlife. It may not be what you want in life, but their devotion is of equal comparison none the less. Again, I a not trying to be personal here, but simply stating why I think christianity is nothing more than a religion like all the rest. Personal belief comes with bias...bias that your perspective is the right one.
"I don't much care for what you think of my beliefs. But I will unashamedly and unwaveringly tell you that my truth is greater, because it is not my truth. It's God truth"
Your belief is irrelevent when claiming what you KNOW is truth. What you KNOW is only god's truth because the bible says it is. The bible is only true because it says that god says it is. Therefore, what you know doesn't go beyond the realm of your personal belief. That brings us full circle to the fact that each and every person who believes something thinks that they are unwaveringly right. What makes you so special in this respect? Simply proclaiming something doesn't make it unwavering or factual. You believe in christianity unwaveringly. Samiya believed in Islam unwaveringly (I'll assume). I believe in none of it. See, we all have perspectives. Does my simple declaration that it is nonsense make it fact? Of course not, and neither does yours. You must have more than belief to make proclamations. Keep in mind, all I am doing here is countering proclamations of belief as fact.
"That's as good as me saying that if your homosexuality was so good, then people wouldn't leave that lifestyle"
That's easy...peer pressure from others (including religious groups) to conform. If god were all he says, there would be something supernaturally tangible that would never have let me go.
"Are you offended by that? (Check _Y or _N, and then join the "yes" club.)"
Not at all, for I have come across things that were truly hitting below the belt on the forums in the past.
"Please answer this then: how many atheists have set out to disprove Christianity only to be overwhelmed by the evidence of Who Jesus is? If you want resources, I have them. Try Josh MacDowell and CS Lewis as a starter"
I've already read that in another thread from your post history. There's plenty of stories available on the internet about believers whose massive research lead them away from belief in god as well, but I suppose those are fairly common place to the handful of people who went the other way. It's all ultimately subjective.
"2) Think of what you understand Jesus to be: Is he a liar, a lunatic, Lucifer, or Lord? "
None of the above. He is a man barely recorded in history (outside of the bible) who had a set of beliefs. People, human beings, are responsible for assigning a legend to him, nothing more.
"We just get frustrated with the same baseless arguments"
That is a stament that readily applies to you and others as well. Everyone has biased material to reference on the internet or in the literary world. Surely you realize that. Why else does everyone have proof that they are right? The arguments are "baseless" only because it isn't what you want to hear.
* * * *
OK, so what's the speed of dark?
Wow...these threads are still going, huh? Hi DFJ. Nicole--there are quite a few of us who were true believers for years that have come to our senses and now eschew the "truths" of your god. I've read both MacDowell (I was on staff with the same Christian organization as he for a few years) and C.S. Lewis. Neither have anything profound to say. Liar, Lunatic or Lord? What about "legend". I'd go for that argument before claiming Jesus is god.
I'd challenge you to honestly study the compilation/origins of your bible. Try reading some of Bart Ehrman's books. You could start with "Misquoting Jesus" that actually chronicles his journey from born-again believing biblical scholar to agnostic biblical scholar. He's a leader in the field on textual criticism. I suspect that, like I would have been years ago, you won't want to honestly research the objective facts about your "word of god". Why would you? Your faith is working for you so it's nice to try and bend the truth to fit your pretty little christian picture.
Just know that your pat answers are nothing more than that. Your faith is no more objectively true than any other of the thousands of faiths that have existed throughout time.
This is in response to both DoubleFacedJanus and achays-1:
I am going to be perfectly honest. I was raised in a Christian home (well, actually, my mother is a former Catholic who converted when she was 20-something). Christianity is the only faith I know of wherejust being physically born into a Christian makes you a Christian. Certainly, as with all other faiths, being raised by parents who were so real about their faith obviuosly influenced me to learn more about the Bible and Jesus (I was also raised in the Church.). At the age of 4 I went to a Christian camp and accepted the invitation of salvation...because my older friend did, too. Pretty young to be making a decision like this, right? I lived from the time I was 4 until the time I was 13 as a lost little girl, even though I still went to Church and "acted" like I was a Christian. You know that little cliché of the adolescent "wrong crowd"? That was me. I offended God and sinned more times than I can count. At age 13 I yet again went to another Christian camp- back to the beginning. I was floored by the honesty and vulnerability of my counselor for the week. I spent I don't know how long in prayer, and by the end of the week had rededicated my life to Christ. (I assume that you, DoubleFacedJanus have most likely had some sort of similar experience.) Ever since, I have had doubts and trouble believing God. I will read a portion of Siddhartha by Herman Hesse and start questioning. I will listen to a Muslim leader and notice the similarities between us. I will have a conversation with a friend who considers herself pagan and find some things that I like about her "beliefs". I will read something about Wicca and become confused that they will believe many of the same things as me. I am young, but I have had enough doubts than I would care to have in a lifetime. As a science fanatic, I have gone to seminars by atheist evolutionists (David Silverman was very interesting to talk to.) I have read books from both points of view, have talked with teachers who objectively teach evolution with no respect for evidence to the contrary (As an old-earth creationist, there is plenty. I believe in the Big Bang, from the standpoint that it overwhelmingly proves the awesomeness and power and precision and unknowability of God. Read The Creator and the Cosmos by Dr. Hugh Ross for more, if you're interested, or go to www.reasons.org). I have not only read books by Christians about subjects. I have consulted the "authorities" on the subjects as well. And I must say, I often doubt why I believe in Jesus. You see, I cannot prove God. I cannot see into the past and experience the actual sermons of Jesus, although I would ove to. I don't have a "hotline" to God by means of which I have thrice-daily conversations with Him. I can't give you an outline of God; I don't have one. I honestly don't know much about God.. I have, however, seen God at work in my life (several miracles of late come to mind that I can share, if you'd like.) and in the lives of those around me. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have actually heard God's voice, a real voice, not something of my own imagining. I can say that because a couple of the times God told me things that I frankly don't want to hear (I have gotten mad at Him more than once.). I have never had the Moses experience of actually seeing God. I haven't had the Elijah experience of being taken up by a burning Chariot. But I have seen God at work in both subtle and not-so-subtle ways in my life. I can't give you acomprehensive list of things I know about God. I can say, however, that I know God. I know Him! I doubt Him, to be sure, because He is an incredibly scary God, one that I can't know completely until the day that I die. He is so big and...out there that whenever I hit a roadblock I run in fear from Him. But I always end up back in His lap. The best description of God that I have heard was given by Donald Miller. He said that God is not a solution. No Christian has a perfect life, free of worry and fear. God is instead a Father. I don't always trust His judgement, I don't always like the punishments He doles out or the rules He puts in place, because they are all-too-often too difficult to obey. I don't like what He gives me, and I don't like what He withholds from me. I don't always think the reawrds He gives me are good enough. I have to trust Him, though. I have totrust that all along, He is building me up to be a woman that He can be proud of. That is what my Christian journey has been about so far, and what it most likely will continue to be. I will continue to have doubts until I see God face to face (finally!). I will continue to be unaware of exactly Who He is. But I will always, always, always know Him, and that wipes out any doubt. And that is why I say what I say. That is why, even though I am still struggling with what you said in your post "Your faith is no more objectively true than any other of the thousands of faiths that have existed throughout time", I know that, somehow, God is greater than any argument that I can make for Him or you can make against Him. And please do not say that it is because I am stupid or ignorant or naive or close-minded. Please afford me that little bit of respect. I would appreciate that. By the way, I don't have a "pretty little Christian picture". My faith doesn't always work for me. Frankly, this year has been a very difficult one. Many people I know have died (my friend Samiya, a young man named Jordan from my church who was killed in Iraq, a young baby named Angelina who was born with a genetic disease, the young lady who struggled for years with an immune system that basically rejected itself...), many experiences I have had do not, in my opinion, point to a God who knows best. I cannot explain Him. I cannot prove Him. But nonetheless I love Him and I serve Him, and I continue in and delight in my friendship with Him, believing that it is not my reasoning that means anything; it is, simply, God.
By the way, you can call me Nicole. I like being called by my real name :).
shareHi Nicole--
I have to say yours is a remarkably refreshing post. I'm all for an honest response like that. You do have doubts but you choose to believe. More power to you. I'm not going to argue that I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no god, but with the evidence I have, that's what I'm leaning toward.
It's the christians who blindly assert that there are mountains of scientific evidence proving that Jesus is god and that the bible is the word of god who drive me nuts. There just isn't good evidence. If a person chooses to believe what's in their heart, that's fine. Just don't go about preaching to the masses that their position is the only truth for everyone.
Sorry it took so long to respond--haven't been back to the site in a few days.
Hi again.
I just wanted to let you know that I am planning on reading that Bart Ehrman book. I actually have been thinking about it for a while, ever since Ehrman talked about it on the Colbert Report (I love that man!).
Something more for the geek in me: Here is the link to a Christian website that deals with the scientific part of Christianity, if you're interested. I'm not trying to pound you with fact after fact, but if you ever feel like some interesting reading, check this site out:
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/index.shtml#bible_and_science
Hope you're having a great day!
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The only thing left is me/Needing You...
-Nichole Nordeman, "The Altar"
Hello everyone!
Man, I rarely post on message boards and frankly rarely read through them because life can just get so busy at times...but somehow I stumbled upon this thread after simply looking for basic information about "End of the Spear!"
Looks like this discussion has been going on for almost 6 months, so I'm not sure if people will read this...but I figured I'd finally post some of what's on my mind if for nothing else than to get my own thoughts down in writing.
Quite an emotional and rollercoaster of a discussion, eh? It always seems like Christianity and corresponding "hot-button" issues clash terribly often. I can't tell you how many times during this thread that my thoughts have exploded into the two greatest commandments Jesus wanted all of us to follow, those of loving no other gods before Him and loving our neighbors more than ourselves. Nicole, I'm glad you were here to post and offer your personal witness to Jesus to everyone who has read this. The frustration SO MANY people feel with how "Christian Churchianity" and "Religiousity" just boils-up from this message board, both from followers of Christ and those who choose not to. It's totally understandable to see why our world is the way it is today, so meddled-with and ruined by our foolish human ways. So many foul acts have tortured civilization and been justifed falsely in the name of Christ, and my heart aches and cries that such has been the case for centuries. Jesus didn't desire for all this to transpire, but it's also obvious why his message was so easily twisted by evil men and women in positions of power because of the POWER Jesus' message has...
Even people who don't follow Christ can understand, or at least hear, his message and Way without believing it. Jesus came to create the New Covenant between God and us as humans, His creation. His commandments of the Old Testament stand, surely, but the fact of Jesus coming and the message he brought is the ONLY TRUTH that we need to follow! I will most likely die with sin still weighing on my heart...I may have lied, cheated, stolen, and commited countless other sins in God's eyes before I reconcile them with Him as I lay on my death bed, but Jesus promised EVERYONE that the only way into heaven was to believe in Him as the Son of God. That's it! No works, nothing! The thing is, that if a person sincerely dedicates his or her life to Christ at any time during their life, they will begin a journey where their heart will desire to SIN NO MORE as they continue their walk with God! The walk with God is great, because it is meant to be a walk with other people. Jesus left us with the Holy Spirit, who now dwells within EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US and is something we are to love and appreciate within other people. By joining a true Christian fellowship community where Jesus' love is practiced, anyone willing to discover Jesus can find pure, hard evidence of Him if they just give people a chance. There ARE good Christians out there, my friends. I don't have all the answers. I don't know why homosexuality exists, as I don't feel that way. I don't know what God is thinking, but I know I AM NOT A JUDGE and I have no say over how God will judge anyone after death. What I and EVERY CHRISTIAN has been commissioned to do until we die is to SHOW EVERYONE THE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE OF CHRIST! It doesn't matter if you are gay, if you murdered my own mother, if you stole my friends bike, if you were Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler. Who am I to judge anyone like God? We can all have our own opinions, as we do, but all I truly know is that I love God, God loves me, and God wants me to love others because in doing so I can show that I love him persistently. And I love doing it!
I will falter, as many Christians do, and I will make mistakes and fall many times in my faith during my life...my heart will be heavy, my mind confused, and my soul weary...but I can and pray that I will always come back to God's loving arms and the community of Jesus-followers that He led me to. It's where I belong and where I can work with others who LOVE others unconditionally and for no reason this world can understand. Just try loving! Don't ask questions. And open your hearts...this world can make them so hard and so painful. Please, reach-out to God in prayer honestly and He will lead you to a Jesus-centered community where you can grow and belong. It's TOTALLY WORTH IT!
Thanks to everyone who posted to this discussion, and to Nicole for being a brilliant "jar of clay!"
In Jesus,
- Dan -
P.S. If you think that God's message is irrelevant to our world today, I implore you to take a look at my church online...http://www.liquidchurch.com. "Living Water for a Thirsty Generation" Plenty of great messages in audio form that may just speak to your heart if you're willing. You can also search "Pastor Tim Lucas" on iTunes!!
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" - 2 Corinthians 5:17
Homosexuals can't be Christian? I have a friend who's a homosexual and a Christian. But, he's just pretending, eh? Because he's sinful and Christians are without sin. I forgot, thanks for straightening me out. I relay that to him.
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
If he is a "Christian", then he knows the Bible and it states it is forbidden, it is a sin, and thus there are consequences. He can repent. It is his choice. I pray and hope he does. God bless.
shareI love the saying by Christians that only atheists are in prison, as if Christians do not sin because they have the love and respect of their deity.
Yet, they always contradict that when they say, Everyone sins.
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
Never have heard that before. Who said that? The late Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, founder of "Voice of the Martyrs" spent a good deal of his life in prison. If you access [VOM] www.persecution.com, Gospel for Asia, and other sites, you will see stories and photos of hundred's of Christians in prison or have been. One of Christ's commands was, "visit Me in prison."
shareI hear it all the time. Perhaps it's a southern attribution?
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
There's a lot of incest in the Bible. Sisters and brothers, Fathers and daughters, cousins etc., two daughters have sex with their father to repopulate the earth (because after their city was destroyed they thought they were the last)
I think they got him drunk so it'd be easier for him.
There's a lot of incest in the Bible.
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
You are a minority in your religion and probably scorned more than anyone.
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
If that is directed towards me, hard to tell, Bible Believing Christians maybe a "minority", in some areas or genre. However, there are millions, at least, evangelical, orthodox and apologetics on the planet. True, the false gospels and churchs are spreading, as it has been prophesized, thousands of years ago. All according to God's plan of, "Paradise lost, will be , paradise restored." Praise be to God.
shareLOL, Dumbkitten, you live up to your name. Who the hell are you to make such definitive statements about God? You really think that God would regard theft of a candy bar and mass murder as the "same in his eyes"?
If that's God, then you can keep him. He's a filthy monster and I want nothing of him.
This may be a bit confusing, but there is a difference between the Law of the Old Testament and the grace of the New Testament. in the old Testament, God's covenant with His people revolved around rules and regulations (Leviticus, as has been mentioned, is one place to find MANY of these.) Howeveer, with the birth and especially death of Jesus, this covenant was broken; instead of us having to do stuff for God, He did the ultimate for us so that we would always be free to go to Him, regardless of how clean our lamb is or how long our robes are. Jesus is the new covenant. If you have read the account of what happened after Jesus died, you may remember that the temple curtain (60 feet tall, 4 inches thick -these dimensions may be off, but they can be found in Leviticus) ripped from top to bottom- impossible for a human to do. This was to symbolize that we don't need a high priest to go to God for us. We can go straight to God. The laws of the old Testament (not including the 10 Commandments) were made moot by Jesus' death. Not every old Testament law needs to be followed. Jesus' laws must be followed, but more specifically, Jesus asks us to love Himi, and to love others. this gets overshadowed. there are some things God will NOT stand for (a homosexual lifestyle is one of them), but i wanted to draw a clear distinction between why Christians are able to say some things that may not be too clear, or may sound completely stupid. I hope this is not confusing.
share"Dwarfism is genetic. Nothing scientific has been proven about homosexuality"
"God did not create gays"
This is for Bruce7.
My Mum's best friend was born with 2 genitals, male and female. She chose to be a female.
Let me tell you, She's God's creation !!!!
[deleted]
Hermaphrodite (sp?)
She could have sex with herself and have a baby. See, who needs men or women if you have both set of organs?
(hermo's do have ovaries by the by, in case people didn't know that)
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'