MovieChat Forums > Sorstalanság (2005) Discussion > Dont they ever make holocaust movies abo...

Dont they ever make holocaust movies about non Jews?

posted 18 years ago by fullmetaljackie
42 replies | jump to latest

Im too lazy to be racist even if I wanted to be but I just dont get why every single thing I see about the Holocaust was about Jewish people, so what gives? According to every class I took in high school and college and everything Ive read since then Jewish people were the MINORITY of who got killed in the Holocaust or at most half.

I dont pretend to know anything about the numbers but nearly everywhere I go its like this:

Holocaust Civilians
Jews 6 million, Non Jews 6-9 million

Yet even Webster says "the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II."

Crap I just saw this for the first time. Dictionary.com doesnt even mention the other flipping people who got killed!! "the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II"

Again I am sure they are all nice people :0) but why the heck are the definitions THAT different? I mean the difference between 6 million (Jews and no one else) and 12-15 million (Jews plus "the others") is pretty friggin big Id say.

Also the only movie Ive ever seen where Jewish people got killed or treated poorly in the war or around that time by anyone but the germans was "Sunshine" with that ralph fiennes fellow who I think is very cute by the way. :0)

Anyhooz how this relates is that when my mister and I saw the box it said something like "a different kind if Holocaust movie" and we were thinking different in terms of hey maybe its not all about the Jewish people no offense guys Im sure you are all nice.

The thing is I am German BUT I belong to a group of "defective messed up humans" that were targeted for extinction by mister hitler probably before the word Jew was even so much as uttered anywhere near the tiniest flippin swastika. (We really dont need to go into which groups people but seriously these groups have been targeted for extinction by nearly every group of people since the dawn of flippin man and also, since we are on the topic these groups have been targeted for extinction by every group of mammals and probably by tons of species of friggin plants!)

So yah I get a little miffed when all I do is ask why havent I seen any movies about the Holocaust with handicapped people and insane people and such and a million folks start screaming at me calling me a flippin anti Semite. No jokes people so wassup come on lets have a movie that takes OTHERS into consideration. It aint my fault I am not a nice Jewish person :0) and again I am sure they all nice but I am too so wtf?

thanks for your time people :0)

ps also I do not want to offend any nazis either because i am sure you are all nice too so please no one beat me up thanks :0)

[–] slsbas 18 years ago

The primary reason the Holocaust happened was to exterminate (MURDER) every single man, woman and child on the European continent (and eventually the WORLD) because they were JEWISH, PERIOD. Adolf Hitler then went on to exterminate ANYONE that stood in the way of his dream for a perfect ARYAN society, minorities such as the gypsies, political and religious opponents, the handicapped, and homosexuals among them. This was called, 'The Final Solution".
He also had in effect early on, a program called, " Action T4". Action T4 was a program in Nazi Germany between 1939 and 1941,in which Adolf Hitler's "followers" systematically killed between 75,000 to 100,000 people with intellectual or physical disabilities. I believe ALL germans were targeted for that, Jewish and not. BUT, he especially targeted again, the Jews, showing them as "biologically inferior" as well. He had even intended to have museums put up all throughout Nazi Germany to show the world the skeletons and organs of the people he murdered through this program. They were "racially unsound".
The word, "Holocaust" is a name name given to that period of persecution and extermination of European Jews by Nazi Germany.
Holocaust comes from the Greek word to mean, "That which is completely burnt”, which was a translation of Hebrew meaning literally "That which goes up,” -that is, in smoke). In this sense a “burnt sacrifice,”
The Jewish people were murdered by gassing (or a shot to the neck or starvation or disease or in any other horrid way) and then their bodies thrown into the fires in the crematoriums or on enormous outdoor pyres.
This is NOT to mean that there haven't been other Holocaust's in the world since then. But when you hear someone refer to WW2 and the Holocaust, well now maybe you'll have a better understanding of why. Don't forget, there were 2 wars going on then with Japan and Germany.
And I do have to disagree completely with you and say that in my opinion, there is NO such thing as a "nice" Nazi.

[–] fullmetaljackie 18 years ago

Id say schindler was a nice nazi wouldnt you? Im sorry but a lot of decent people were in the nazi party because they were worried about their flippin babies getting piano wired to death. And I didnt see Schindler busting his ass to help someone in a friggin dam wheelchair or a walking stick so whatever. for petes sakes people the human race is full of mean people and besides look at all the mass murderers we worship like alexander the farrel and dracula.

Do you mind if i ask, are you Jewish? Cuz Im handicapped sugar I'll tell ya that straight up. :0) And i know its not your fault so my bitchy attitude is not geared at you but just to tell ya where i "stand" hahaha I FIND IT A LITTLE BIT IRRITATING THAT NO ONE GIVES A CRAP ABOUT THE OTHER MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO GOT KILLED. I see NO DIFFERENCE between killing someone because of their race than killing them because they are handicapped or friggin gypsy or rich or poor or standing in the wrong place at sundown. If you wanna come to me as a human and cry about the Holocaust I will cry with you all night long and comfort you and make you soup and tuck you in and put mints under your pillow but anyone who wants EXTRA sympathy from me because they were the victim of a HATE CRIME?!? I tell ya what, if someone blows your head off or gasses you or sticks a very large vegetable up your buttocks you are NOT going to care why they are doing it happening.

So anyway yah why am i confused here still? Did they start gassing freaks like me before the Jews? Seems i saw some movie where some important nazi's mentally special niece gas carbon monoxided back like 1939 or what you were saying.

I do very much appreciate the effort you spent and the information and although i am flippy sometimes :0) i do not mean that sarcastically. But I not sure what your goal is. To let me know that some my kind of defective does not count as much even though there were more non jews killed?

Webster says:

HOLOCAUST (1). . . . (2) . . . . (3) a often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II -- usually used with the b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : GENOCIDE

If there were 12-15 million people got killed and 6 million of them were Jewish peeps then what did hitler maybe get a little sidetracked? If the main goal was to kill the Jews he certainly wasted precious time killing less important defective people like me and gypsies and such.

You said: "The Jewish people were murdered by gassing (or a shot to the neck or starvation or disease or in any other horrid way) and then their bodies thrown into the fires in the crematoriums or on enormous outdoor pyres."

How did they kill my people? Feeding them too much sugar?

Im sorry for being a smarty pants thats just how i am and i do genuinely appreciate your help and also i like that you havent tried to say i was a nazi just because i watched a mel gibson movie in 1994. :0)

Hey i gotta "run" (hahahahahaha!!) no time to proofread i hope this makes sense girl :0)

[–] slsbas 18 years ago

I'm Catholic.

"I FIND IT A LITTLE BIT IRRITATING THAT NO ONE GIVES A CRAP ABOUT THE OTHER MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO GOT KILLED!"

Well I don't think that's fair to say. "NO ONE" is a broad statement to make. There are a lot of people who care very much that even one person is killed. But when the subject of the HOLOCAUST comes up, don''t forget that people lost their businesses, ALL their rights, their homes were taken away, they were thrown into ghettos under unbelievably horrendous circumstances and then taken to concentration camps and either gassed to death immediately or worked to death, ALL because they were JEWISH! YES the handicapped were murdered, YES non-jews were murdered, YES there are estimates that 50 MILLION people died as a result of WW2 alone. ALL of that was horrible and tragic. But, to say that because the Jews were murdered in huge numbers, that all the other genocides in history don't count, isn't a fair statement to make as there are certainly many people who feel, including myself, that the loss of ONE life is wrong, period.

..." But I not sure what your goal is. To let me know that some my kind of defective does not count as much even though there were more non jews killed?

Not at all! All I meant to say was that Hitler wanted EVERYONE exterminated that stood between his idea of a perfect Germanic Aryan Society.
That specifically meant:
Jews
Non-Jews (ie: ALL race, creed and color. ANYONE who disagreed with his ideals)
Mentally and physically challenged people

As far as murder goes, to take even ONE life is atrocious!! As a former LED teacher myself, I find the fact that he killed the mental and physical handicapped, to be most barbarous!! Innocent babies, women, children, men and the elderly!!? It blows my mind to even think of it. My brother-in-law is mentally challenged and I am fiercely protective of him!

"How did they kill my people? Feeding them too much sugar?"

You mean the handicapped? Because we ALL qualify for "my people" as Hitler wiped away ANYONE who disagreed with him! Actually, by NOT feeding them at all. They were also gassed, shot, the children were thrown out windows, and given overdoses of Luminal (sedative). But starvation was commonly used. They simply stopped giving them food. They would then tell the families that their loved ones died from, "natural causes", and make them pay for the burials.

"Im sorry but a lot of decent people were in the nazi party because they were worried about their flippin babies getting piano wired to death."

That may be true. I shouldn't make that assumption based on my own biases. But keep in mind that early on in the Reich, Hitler condemned the 'softness' of the 'civilized' German people. He said in order for them to really win, the German people had to be taught to hate in the extreme! It was drilled into their heads as far back as the first world war that the Jews were a "mongrel" society. The radio and the newspapers and the schools were teaching anti-semitism outright! Hitler just fed the fire, so to speak, and Germany was becoming divided, Germans non-Jews------Jews. While there is truth to the fact that a lot people had no option but to join the Nazi party, ("blind obedience" to the Furher!) the word, "Nazi" tends to bring to mind the murderers of the Third Reich!

From Wikipedia:
"Originally, the term Nazi was coined as a quick way of referring to the Party or ideology that would later be - and, to this day, remains - in close association with Adolf Hitler (the phrase is derived from the first four letters in the first word of the official name, "Nationalsozialistische", German for "National Socialist,"...The inception of the Gestapo, police acting outside of any civil authority, highlighted the Nazis' intention to use powerful, coercive means to directly control German society..."

Maybe there were a few Nazis here and there who had a conscience and a soul and may have acted as such, but history shows that most were just too afraid to buck the system. There is an awful lot of fact to back another point up on, that the majority of the SS were brutal, criminal and ruthless. Hermann Goering, one of Hitler's minions, once joked that while there were an abundance of, "Yes-Men" that surrounded Hitler, there was an obvious absence of, "No-Men". Where were they? Why SIX FEET UNDER of course!

Okay, whew! I am pooped and have kids coming home and tons to do.
Take care!

[–] fullmetaljackie 18 years ago

I have read everything you said three times and I completely thank you for all the good information. :0) I was going to get back into this subject today being monday but then i read bubble butts rude response to me in the other thread and not i am in a bad mood so i will come back later. Also i have the flu and feel like poopoo :0P But anyway thanks much and I will TTYL :0)

[–] Malgorzata64 13 years ago

Maybe there were a few Nazis here and there who had a conscience and a soul and may have acted as such, but history shows that most were just too afraid to buck the system. There is an awful lot of fact to back another point up on, that the majority of the SS were brutal, criminal and ruthless.

Not every member of the Nazi party was in SS.

[–] MdmBadenov 18 years ago

ajcookwannabe wrote:
Id say schindler was a nice nazi wouldnt you? Im sorry but a lot of decent people were in the nazi party because they were worried about their flippin babies getting piano wired to death. And I didnt see Schindler busting his ass to help someone in a friggin dam wheelchair or a walking stick so whatever. for petes sakes people the human race is full of mean people and besides look at all the mass murderers we worship like alexander the farrel and dracula.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry, but check your facts: Schindler was NOT a Nazi. He was a non-political business man who started w/ his only main concern as making the best profit he could. At the time, he was willing to do business w/ the gov't. and ignored the politics involved, preferring to stay neutral and keep his eye only on the dollar. As time went by and he saw more and more of what brutal, amoral monsters the Nazi gov't. was, he was repulsed morally and could no longer remain neutral. His choice was to use his position as an independent entrepreneur respected and needed by the Nazis to help individuals victimized by the regime where he could, making small differences here and there and ease what suffering he could. Eventually, he began working behind the scenes to infiltrate and undermine the death machine. He also helped many prisoners and would-be prisoners escape.

There were also a great many non-Jewish citizens of Nazi-occupied countries who strongly disliked the reigning gov't. and opposed their agenda, but went on to quietly live their lives rather than actively work against the gov't. It's inaccurate to refer to such people as members of the Nazi party. Not every non-Jew in Germany and other Nazi-occupied countries who were not imprisoned or murdered were Nazis. That would be as short-sighted and simplistic as saying every US citizen who is not attending anti-war rallies must support the war in Iraq. Rarely is anything that simple.

And FTR, there are hundreds of films and books about the Holocause and it's simply untrue to say all are only about Jews. In fact, Schindler's List did include scenes of non-Jews that were killed, and showed soldiers of the SS going into hospitals and infirmaries and executing elderly, infirm and disabled people. No concern was given whatsoever to what race, party or religion such people were.

Sophie's Choice focuses mainly on a Catholic Polish woman whose father and brother-in-law were even Nazi sympathizers at a university who are arrested as dissidents. Sophie herself is arrested for smuggling a ham under her dress on her way to her ailing mother's home, hoping the meat that exceeded their ration card might give her mother new strength. She was taken w/ her 2 children on the long journey in a box car w/o food or water or even a place to sit to Auschwitz. She was forced to choose, merely as a means to inflict mental torture upon her by a sadistic SS, which child she wanted to keep w/ her and which would be "sent away" (which she instintively sensed meant death). After she complied in absolute agony, her other child was taken from her too and she never saw him again. She never knew if he survived or died.

So both your suppositions are patently false. Not all Holocaust films and stories are only about Jews, and there is no such thing as a "nice Nazi". The 2 words together--nice and Nazi--are a contradiction in terms.

Either you are supremely ignorant, or you are here deliberately to be obnoxious just to get a rise out of people. Either truth is nothing to be proud of.

[–] fullmetaljackie 18 years ago

I thought i was too ignorant for a response, pickles. You responded here.

Well there, i didn't know that about sophies choice so thanks for telling me. I dont think i ever stated "THERE ARE NO MOVIES" i think i was asking, as if "hey there might be but i would like to know about them, i havent heard about them."

Schindler was in the nazi party at least as far as his own admission accordin to the movie and the book.

As far as the rest of your response I will read it when i flippin feel like it because in your other response you just told me what a complete idiot i am so poopooo on you missy. Get off your high horse and go clean your husbands toilet.

[–] Camoo 18 years ago

gunter grass and pope benedict could be considered 'nice nazis'.. people who simply due to circumstance were basically forced to enlist as youths [as did millions of others] in order to escape persecution themselves.. i think its difficult to brand an entire order, race or country evil... there are definately people who are 'evil' and have the ability to influence millions, but when it comes to the collective hysteria attributed to nazism [or the bizzare mechanic lifestyle of the north koreans today] its clear to me that people become part of a larger organism due to their environment, and can do little to stop being influenced by their surroundings and those around them.
as for cooks question, there have been many films about world war 2 that dont explicitly speak about the jewish condition or persecution.. but the term 'holocaust' and when we speak of holocaust movies, refers specifically to the jewish extermination.. otherwise we would call it a world war 2 movie.. i think the reason why so many people have concentrated on this atrocity, is though many many people died during world war two from both oceans and between, many were as a result of regional conflict, and deaths were spread out.. but the holocaust was such a concentrated effort to exterminate one particular race, and how that race still struggles in many of the same ways today makes films on the subject particularly resonant. to answer your question.. but i wish you would use a little discretion when posting on a subject like this, instead of telling someone to go clean their husbands toilet..

[–] fullmetaljackie 18 years ago

"people become part of a larger organism due to their environment, and can do little to stop being influenced by their surroundings and those around them."

Yah I totally agree. People are always telling me how the germans shoulda just stood up to hitler because it was wrong of him to invade another country and this is coming from people against bush's war and it doesnt occur to them well hey they arent stopping that war and bush is kind of a sissy compared to hitler :0) hahaaha

As far as the Holocaust being about Jews only well this is where i still dont know. I was always taught it was about everyone not just Jews and some dictionaries say this too like webster

Main Entry: ho·lo·caust (3) a often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II

About half of what i read says Jews only half says something like this.

As far as me being rude well i dont know which post of hers you were reading but in the shorter one she was very rude to me and was telling me how stupid I was so she can kiss my buttocks. I have the flue and I will not tolerate someone being a dummy to me like that telling me how stupid i am. Not when i am a little sick princess dam it :0P

But anyway you seem nice and i hope you do not think i am too grouchy! :0) Thanks very much for your info and time.

ps are you related to albert? hahahaha :0)

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] smegzilla 17 years ago

Actually the Nazis targeted Gypsies before any other group. Any literature on Auschwitz shows that, later in the war, the entire Gypsy camp was exterminated. There were no survivors. While alot of Hitler's focus was on exterminating the Jewish people, Nazi policy was to get rid of any 'undesirables' which included homosexuals, jehovah's witnesses, gypsies, mentally and physically handicapped, members of resistance groups and so on. So the holocaust was not to exterminate the jews "period" as you say. It was to exterminate all those who the Nazis viewed as 'untermenschen' (Subhuman). As i said before, it was certainly the focus of alot of their propaganda, but to say that the Nazis had only the Jews in mind is incorrect.

And to the original poster, there is a film about homosexuals in a concentration camp, it's called "Bent".

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nedimhaken 17 years ago

I don't believe you

[–] merfwriter 18 years ago

I agree with you ajcookwannabe 100%. I took a entire Holocaust class in college and the first thing we were tought when it came to learning about the Holocaust was the term Eugenics. Eugenics means the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics. In the United States during the 1800s there was a wide spread movement called The Eugenics Program of America. In several states in the U.S. they actually made it leagal to starolize people with undesirable traits such as people with disablities, mental retardation and mental illness, young unwed mothers est.. They did this against their own will. Only in resent years did the govenors of these States appologized for the wrong doings to the poeple who were effected and hurt by this law. Hitler, it seemed to a lot about this program in America and decided to try it out his oun people. Another thing that I learned was that the handicaped were the first group of people to be targeted and killed. I, for one was shocked by this because I have mild CP and to think that if I lived during that time and place, I might be the first to be noticed and then targeted, starolized or killed because I might pass on some bad genes is obsured.

There should be a movie about the Holocaust that features the just the Gypsies or just the handicaped.

There are some movie that I have seen that are good that don't feature Jewish people as the main character:

The Hidding Place: The true story of Christian, Corrie ten Boom who with her sister Betsie hid Jews in a secret room in Corrie's bedroom. Corrie and her family and the Jews were caught and Corrie was sent to prison and then later taken to the all female concentration camp Ravensburk.

Bent: About a crossdressing homosexual night club singer who is take to Dacue and forms a relationship with another male prisoner in the camp.

The made for TV movie, Holocaust: Its the story of the Holocaust by the different fases it went through. Watch carefuly and it will show you how they gased mentally handicaped and mentally ill persons in a gas chamber.

[–] choke_yourself 18 years ago

Hi, I'm ajcookwannabe's friend. She's going to be without internet access for a while, so I'm getting her mail. I'll make sure she gets this, and I'm sure she'll be very enthused, since I know this topic interests her. She might be back in a week or so, hopefully.

If not, that probably means she's dumping me, and I hope she falls off a cliff.

[–] stanzyck 18 years ago

I agree with one sentiment of Kerstez in relation to SL- there has been a misappropriation of the "truth" in latter years in general, and SL in particular, in relation to the ethnic composition of prisoners at Auschwitz-Birkenau. While it is an undoubtedly horrific fact that the "final solution" specifically targeted only the Jewish population, millions of other ethnicities died alongside their Jewish brethren in AB. My wife's grandfather, for instance, was killed in Birkenau in 1944- and he was an officer in the Polish AK (Home Army) Resistance. He was an ethnic Catholic Pole. Historians have verified that 3 million people of Jewish ancestry were exterminated in AB- yet many forget that 1 million Catholic Poles met the same fate there- along with hundreds of thousands of Roma (Gypsies), Russians, Ukrainians, Political Prisoners, the Polish and German Clergy, Homosexuals, etc...
The primary fault of Schindler's List is that it paints a very incomplete picture of the enormity of the genocide that took place there to so many races...and yet, if you were unfamiliar with the Holocaust (as many of us Americans are as we were not given the same cultural exposure to its aftermath as Europeans were) and only viewed Schindler's List, one would be left with the sad and incorrect impression that only Jews died there. This misconception, sadly, does play a part in the general ignorance of American viewers- indeed, just last month Oprah Winfrey had to be corrected when, with survivor Eli Weisal, she filmed on location at Auschwitz and referred to it as "the Polish Death Camps".
I still applaud Mr. Spielberg for his heroic feat of filmmaking- but I am disturbed by his failure to accurately portray the horrific events that occurred there.

[–] SomethinglikeSarah 17 years ago

Erm, the Nazis systematically killed the mentally and physically disabled in their 'euthanasia' programs before death camps such as Treblinka, Chelmo, Sobibor or Auschwitz were even conceived. I do find it quite offensive that people still believe the holocaust only effected Jews because even though groups such as Roma Gypsies, Gay people, Prostitutes, 'Anti-Socials' were not murdered on the extreme scale Jews were, they were still MURDERED. Not forgetting the millions of Political prisoners. But you know things are changing, Buchenwald memorial camp has a new monument dedicated to the gay people who suffered there, and the play Bent was just showing in London. (I recommend eveyone to see the film Bent).

And of course thousands of British, American, Canadian and Austrialian POWs died at the hands of the Japanese. I think its easier to say that every one of the 62million victims of the second world war should be commemorated but alas, thats not the way things go.

* Lutons / finest / export *

[–] fullmetaljackie 17 years ago

Dude I am sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I am absent minded sometimes (meaning always). :0) Thanks a lot for your information and I will see about renting these - they all seem very interesting. I may have to just buy them because the video store situation out here sucks big butt. The only video store that has rare features is like 40 minutes away and with the wat gas is so expensive I might as well flippin just the buy a movie as opposed to driving so far to rent it then just have to take it back the next day. :0)

Thanks much and sorry again I was delinquent in respinding. :0)

[–] tntales 18 years ago

Well, FYI there is a documentary about the persecution of homosexuals during WWII called "Paragraph 175." It's narrated by Rupert Everett. I've not watched it all, but it's supposed to be pretty good.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0236576/

Also, there's a documentary from the guys who did Paradise Lost (another good doc) called "Gray Matter." It's about brain experiments the Nazis did on mental patients in Austria.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427306/

Both of these are available (least at Blockbuster online), not too hard to find. On IMDB, just do a keyword search for Nazi and you'll find plenty of documentaries and other keyword trees.

Hope this helps.

CM

[–] kenneglds 17 years ago

While millions of non-Jews were murdered by the Nazis, the Nazis had no master plan to wipe out any other race, or type of people, other then the Jews. As far as non-Jewish "Holoucast" movies go, there was a movie called "Bent" several years ago, starring Clive Owen, which was about homosexuals in Nazi concentration camps, and last year, there was a very good movie (I'm not sure of the name, but I think it was something like "The 8th day", or "The 9th day") which was about a priest in a Nazi concentration camp.

[–] ngaio62 16 years ago

On the subject of pink triangle prisoners, when I was in my early 20's [1983] I bought abook called THE MAN WITH THE PINK TRIANGLE [Die Mann Mit die Rosa Winkle] by Heinz Heine, an Austrian who survived several camps. This book is very readable and still availabe from most gay or gay friendly bookshops or
Amazon. GMP published. It is very readable and would translate well to film.
Maybe in my lifetime?

Kiwiboy62

[–] zsuzsimm 17 years ago

Film about gypsies trying to escape the Holocaust, and quite a good one too: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096815/

[–] fullmetaljackie 17 years ago

Why thank you very much! :0) Hey the main guy was also in Raid on Entebbe! I think I saw that on AMC last year :0)

[–] Brontebelle 17 years ago

I have read your posts and responses with interest and hope you don't take IMDB posting too seriously! Some people 'troll' the site, looking for a fight.

I am not Jewish, but I facilitate a Jewish film discussion series at a local Jewish community center. I enjoy this work very much and have learned so much more than I learned in school about WW II and the Holocaust through films coming from every corner of the earth and documenting countless cultural experiences and views.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, there are many films in existence that document the non-Jewish experience throughout the war and Holocaust. One in particular I would recommend to you: "I Am David". This chronicles the life of one little boy thrown into a labor camp just because his parents disagreed with the politics of the time...... so, you see, one didn't have to be Jewish, a gypsy, handicapped or maimed to be murdered, one could just disagree.....

[–] levy185 17 years ago

I'm thinking that you are looking at it in a wrong point of view. Everibody knows that there were more non jew victims in the were then jew victims, but that's not the point. The point is that most of hte other people who died in the war, they were soldiers and they died fighting for their country. The jew's however they were dragged out from thei homes and they were forced to work or if they couldn't, they were killed or the doctors made experiments on them. They couldn't fight back like the soldiers did. Probably everybody who made films about the Holocaust tried tu ilustrate how people fought for there freedom or how did they accept this thing (like in this movie). Another thing is the hatred for jewish people was incredible. And how did they manage to fill all these soldiers with crap like that. I think that is something similar like the thing that is going on in the arab world, how they hate the american people and how they are trained for that since they are childs. And this was the same with the german people, I think.

But I think they should make a movie about the suffering of the jews in the Romanian concentracion camps. About these things not many people herd of, but there existed concentracion camps in Romania also. And these were a lot worse then the german ones, because Romania was a poore country and they couldn't feed them, so they just let them there to die of hounger, thirst or cold. A man, who survived this talked about it and he said that they were on a large field where there were no houses, just some ruins, nobody gave them water or food, they were held there and left to die. And these thing not even the romanians know because they don't teach this in school or university, the history books from schools are still full of crap, even though the Ceausescu era is over since 16 years. And this is a sad thing.

[–] fullmetaljackie 17 years ago

"The point is that most of hte other people who died in the war, they were soldiers and they died fighting for their country"

I appreciate your time but this is just wrong. Im talking innocent civilian deaths. Jews - 6 million; others - 6-8 millon or whatever. NOT SOLDIERS.

[–] levy185 17 years ago

It's true that they also murdered non Jews also. Yesterday I read an article about it and there they said that the killings started first with german people who were very ill, phisically incapable of doing much things or whom ever they thought that did not belong to that perfect Arian nation. The doctors used these people for medical experiments, and they did some quite horrible things to them. this is a link where u can find some interesting articles. You should read them. http://www.remember.org/imagine/haswell.html.
Can you imagine that almost 50% of the doctors in Germany voluntered for these horrible experiments? And only a few were triaed after the war. It's a shame.
Maybe they should do a movie about this topic.
Got to go.
Bye

[–] fullmetaljackie 17 years ago

Yah they really should do a movie about it but hopefully not with the germans cuz we *beep* have already taken enough blame for this type of behavior when its not german behavior but human behavior. The japs did crap like this too and from what i hear so did the russkies.

Germans are just like anyone else - when put in crazy sitations some will do awful things and some wont. Id like to think id be brave and do the right things but probably not since i dont like to watch my family get tortured.

Also on an unrelated note (kinda) it should be a decent indication that we are not a bad people knowing the mortaility rate for american P.O.W.s in german camps was 1 % while in jap camps it was like 39 % of whatever.

I will check out your link so thanks very much for that and for yout time sir :0)

[–] citromle 17 years ago

The deaths of "normal" people all over the world during WWII, was, of course, much more than the 6 million jews who were killed in the Holocaust, but most of those people died because of war. Bombings, disieses, hunger etc.(Which is also sad, but is still very different). The first jew laws were between the two wars, at the beginning of Hitler's ruling. They were classified as second-citizens or I don't know how you would say it(sorry, I'm hungarian...). and they had less rights. The handicapped, the homosexuals and the prostitutes were MOSTLY killed in a program called Action T4, which was later stopped due to people who were protesting. Someone said that they didn't have a plan ro exterimante any other race-this is very untrue. They had a plna all worked out, whicj would've only left the blue-eyed, blonde, christian germans, and this plna started with the jews. But, for example people from Poland were considered almost as bad as the jews, that's why they took so many people from there, even the non-jews.
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I am confused. Why does Ross, the largest 'Friend' not simply eat the others?

[–] fullmetaljackie 17 years ago

wait - so are you saying most of the 6-8 million civilian non-jews were killed by bombs and harsh language? maybe so but i find that a little hard to believe.

so you know anywhere where the civilian deaths are categorized?

you have brought up a very good point and i thank you :0)

[–] citromle 17 years ago

No, the other 10-12 million people died because there was a war. The other 5-6 million people who were non-jews who were killed by the Holocaus were killed by the....Holocaust.
I know that you can't really trust wikipedia, but it says this:

"...to exterminate every possible member of the populations targeted by Adolf Hitler and the Nazis."
"The Jews of Europe were the most numerous of the victims of the Holocaust in what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question "[7]" (die Endlösung der Judenfrage) or "the cleaning" (die Reinigung). It is commonly stated that approximately six million [8][9] Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using, among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from five million to seven million."
"Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as 800,000) — between a quarter to a half of their European population. Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable" included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million killed, mostly by Croat Ustaše), around 500,000 Bosniaks[10], Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed."
"...estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million."

For further information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

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I am confused. Why does Ross, the largest 'Friend' not simply eat the others?

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Malchik81 17 years ago

There are hundreds and hundreds of films about civilian deaths during the second world war - you just may have to look further than a Webster's dictionary. Go to any european country the video stores will be filled with them. In fact, if you're really so upset about holocaust films, go to Eastern Europe (Russia, Poland, Ukraine) and you won't be able to find Holocaust films if you try - only films about the deaths of national populations.

[–] stanzyck 17 years ago

Funny, as I lived in Krakow, Poland and watched the Pianist at the local Kinoplex...it was shown in a double feature with Schindler's List. So what are you trying to infer about Eastern Europeans with your lie?

[–] Malchik81 17 years ago

Wow - got me! I lived in Moscow, Kiev, and Rovno and couldn't find a book or film on the holocaust. Guess I must be making things up! Oh wait, no, I'm sorry, I did find a book on the Holocaust in Moscow...which someone had taken a pen to and wrote "The Holocaust never happened." Wait a second, yes I did see books on the Holocaust on Novyi Arbat - a book stand full of them. I think one title was the "Myth of Holocaust." My absolute _favorite_ in Kiev was "The Ritualistic Killings by Jews in History." This, of course, was located in the academic section of the bookstore :) Boy, those Jews have drank a lot of Christian blood! David Duke also appears to be quite a hit in Eastern Europe - being that his books syndicated in Poland, Russia, and Ukraine! You know, David Duke, the American Nazi?

Hey and while you're at it - why don't you stop in any major bookstore in Warsaw and find a book on the Holocaust for me? You know what - I'll do it myself this July and let you know how it goes :) I'll check for movies too :)

Oh and one more thing - since you're such a Krakow expert - why don't head over to the former Jewish ghetto in Krakow and find a monument for me (the one put up by the Israeli government doesn't count)! How about the umschlagsplatz as well (and sorry if Polanski paid for and put the monument it doesn't count - I'm referring to monuments erected by the Polish government to all of _their_ Polish Jews who were killed or deported there)? And lastly - why not head over to Schindler's factory and let me know the current state of that site? I thought the recent edition of the security firm right outside the entrance with all the highly intelligent guards making anti-semitic comments in Polish as American visitors like myself and my friends came by to the building (schucks I bet they didn't think I understood the word "zhid" ;) was really a nice touch! Closing down the factory and small museum inside was also a good idea! The bet the Polish government probably doesn't have any extra money for recognition of the Holocaust with all the Kaytn monuments it needs to build :)

Do you really think I'd make that claim unsubstantiated? Durok.

[–] stanzyck 17 years ago

As a professor of Modern European History who lives in Poland half of the year, you are amazingly ignorant of many facts.
Firstly, Moscow is not Eastern Europe. And since the Soviets essentially produced most of the post-war documentaries about the Holocaust in Europe to effectively illustrate the evil of the Nazi regime that they believed they "liberated" Eurpoe from, your claim that a book about the Holocaust not existing in Russia or Ukraine is quite absurd.
Next, is your illogical claim that because you found some anti-Semitic grafitti in Eastern Europe, that therefore ALL of Eastern Europe is anti-Semitic. Funny, that sounds like the irrational projection of non-confirmed predjudice upon an entire ethnic group to me...please look up "irony" for me.
My friend, sadly one can (and does) encounter ethnic slurs in every country on earth.
I am familiar with David Duke- you can find his writings in London as well as the Barnes and Nobles in Denver.
I would love to point out several options for you to find great titles in Warsaw- I might recommend the city center Empik, which recently hosted a reading of "Night" by Elie Weisel. Or, if you would like the same titles in English, you may wish to visit "Traffic Club" on Bracka St.
Lastly, it is absurd to claim that ANYONE in Poland does not recognize that the Holocaust happened- especially since so many non-Jewish Poles died in those same camps. While 3 million European Jews were executed in the Holocaust, 2 million Catholic and civilian Poles also died there. My wife, who is Polish, is always amused when she reveals that both sets of her grandparents were numbered and killed at Auschwitz, only to be always asked by ignorant Americans, "Oh...I didn't know you were Jewish!"
Lastly, there is a reason that the majority of the world's Jewish pre-war population lived in Poland- I suggest you study up on it upon your next visit.
Best.

[–] Malchik81 16 years ago

Wow - Moscow isn't in Eastern Europe? This sure changes a lot! Please let me know where it is located then. (Let me guess where this is going...Russians aren't Europeans, righ?)

Where did I claim everyone in Eastern Europe was anti-Semitic (just quote me)? Little touchy are we? Don't patronize me - I don't and never have pigeon-holed any group of people. I have plenty of Polish, Ukrainian and Russian friends who are caring and open-minded people, which would obviously dissuade me from ever making such a claim. Yet, at the same time, the fact I have such friends, doesn't blind me from the fact the fact that racism and anti-Semitism have strong currency and often open endorsement in Eastern Europe. Perhaps I'm only speaking to the Ukrainian and Russian cases, but I doubt it.

Yes, you're right, Americans are just as anti-Semitic as Eastern Europeans. Point well taken...For instance, I just had a friend from an Ivy League school, who gave a paper at a university in Kiev about Jewish artists in Kiev around 1900. The Q and A consisted of following questions: "Are you a Jew?" "Why are you doing Jewish history?" "They have nothing to do with Ukraine." Then one student said "Of course she's not Jewish she doesn't have horns." This was at a "university." Now, of course, this type of exchange would probably happen at a major university in the US too, right? I'm sure you'll agree since using your broad logic - all ethnic biases and prejudices are basically the same in all places and there is no possibility that certain societies and cultures facilitate, nurture, and endorse certain types of hatred differently (and perhaps more openly) - like, say, anti-semitism in a public forum at a renowned university.

David Duke isn't a celebrity in America - he's a Nazi. There's probably a reason he lives in Moscow, no?

I, on the other hand, find it amusing when Poles tell me 6 million "Poles" died in the war...(in response to the "Holocaust" issue)

The fact you're a professor doesn't impress me either. As if that implies you know more than me?? I know enough people with doctorates to know that doesn't "necessarily" mean a lot. I'm doing a doctorate myself in "modern European history" (and spend all my free time in Eastern Europe), so, big deal...

Still waiting for an explanation about Schindler's factory and all the other Jewish landmarks in Krakow. The thing I like best about it is the the sign that stands there now (the one that says Schindler's Factory) was actually put up by a college student from Michigan, who raised the money in his hometown and put it up himself. The Krakow government was obviously really interested in getting involved...

Also, again, please explain to me why there are books about how Jews drink the blood of Christian children in major bookstores in Eastern Europe (passed off as academic books). Please tell me how and why this is same in America because in my heart I really want to know. And if you don't believe me I'm happy to email the photos I took this past summer in Kiev (in various bookstores). Perhaps they don't have any in Poland and this is a Ukrainian phenomenon?

Jan Gross' book was so well-received by Poles too - you should have mentioned that in your rebuttal. That would have been such an excellent example of how welcoming and accepting Poles are of the Holocaust.

Let me guess what's on your shelf right now - Bogdan Musial?

[–] Kinematico 16 years ago

Answering to the OP: Yes, the movies about the jewish holocaust made by HOLLYWOOD outnumber by a huge margin the films about "other holocausts" like the armenian holocaust perpetrated by the turks (I can only remember Egoyan's "Ararat").
The extermination of Homosexuals, Mental or physically disabled people are briefly touched in "Sophie Scholl" and "Judgment at Nuremberg".

Also millions of polish non-Jewish, soviets (most of them orthodox) were massacred because their political beliefs or because Hitler considered the slavs an inferior race. There are plenty of documentaries and movies shot in the former USSR and eastern-europe countries that westerners doesn't knows, like the wonderful film by Elem Klimov "Come and See"

Millions of chinese and a huge ammount of Koreans and other asian people were massacred by the Japanese.
USA sent to death hundreds of thousands of japanese civilians, many of them were killed by the atomic bombs, but many others were victims of the "conventional raids". There is a very crude and at the same time touching and objective miniseries called "Hiroshima", but there are many more abut this subject. IMO one of the best films that talks about the misery of japanese civilians is an anime film called "Grave of the Fireflies" by Isao Takahata.

Also about 6 millions of german civilians were killed during the constant raids over their cities. I remember a very good TV miniserie called "Dresden".

The Nazi-Fascists were without any doubt the biggest evil of the XX century. Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and lesser fascists leaders around the world killed millions of humans beings.
There is not such a thing like NICE NAZIS!

Not during the WW2 but there are some important movies about the madness of Pol Pot in Cambodia (The Killing Fields), even some films on the 3 millions vietnamites killed by the US troops during the Viet-Nam war.
"Hotel Rwanda" deals with a genocide in the heart of Africa.
And what about the brittish in India?

Sadly this have happened before, we must go back to the middle age when the "cátaros" were exterminated until the last men/women by the catholics, or we can remember how many millions of native-americans were masscred by europeans (spaniards, portugueses, frenchs, brittish) during the "conquista" and by the yankees during the expansion to the west. Even the "Whites" from countries like Argentina decided to exterminate "their indians" during the so called "campaña del desierto" in the XIX century.
What about the Crusades???

I could go on and on, and sadly I wouldn't finish.

Back on topic:
There are movies about all those "holocausts" but Hollywood has chosen to portray more the "Jewish Holocaust" over any other genocide.

Why?

Perhaps because what the Nazis did to the Jewish nation is something so awful that shouldn't be forgotten. (neither the "other" holocausts)
And perhaps because many of the Hollywood Moguls are Jewish, not gypsies or armenians, or chinese, or kurds, or serbs, or bosnians, or hutus & tutsis, cambodians, native-americans, vietnamites, koreans, poles, russians, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

For more info:

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/

[–] fullmetaljackie 15 years ago

hey sorry i didnt get this right away but the internet sucks so i was gone for a long time. thanks for taking the time to make some very good point here and provide some useful opinions and information. also i checked out that website and found it very interesting as well

hey though im pretty sure stalin was a lot worse than hitler dude. most of the number i have seen put hilter at 12-15 million civilians and stalin at 30-40 million. i think people "pick on" the nazis because of their cool uniforms and they were more hollywood kinda evil