At first glance this does look like an eva clone but after the first few episodes its story goes into a different direction. Personally i think that it isnt a copy but inspired by eva andt there is nothing wrong with inspiration.
shareI first saw Evangelion in 1997 and I just saw this show a few months ago, and I was aghast. This is like a ridiculous joke, it's a total rip-off. Some of it is just absurd, like the Angel-like monsters who have blue blood. Some of this stuff, while I was watching it, I was like, you've got to be kidding.
shareBtw, it's not just the concepts that I think is the problem, also the screenplay and character design too.
shareYeah, I had watched it a little while ago, and I actually FORGOT how much it rips straight from the script of Eva. I think what happened, was I tried really hard to see what was unique about Rah... and there are some things, but they actually get shuffled to the side and background; as if the show's creators wanted to make Evangelion 2 or something, and forget this unique and intriguing stuff we got.
I've recently checked a few things about it, and the pacing, the plotting, the scripting, the characters... some of it is tweaked, but only superficially. Underneath it all (and plent on top, too), it's clearly more than inspired by Evangelion.
An homage is a tribute or a reference to a show. If you put an homage to Eva in your show, it's in order to make you think of Eva, and it's plot, and maybe compare it to the scene or the character or the theme that it's placed in connection to. Taking the plot of another show and simply renaming, redrawing, and rearranging its pieces does not an original show make. It didn't even do anything so good as to develop its story beyond Eva's. It really is the epitome of ripoff.
The only thing that is better in Rahis is its animation... with almost 10 years improvement over Eva. It's not hard to technically beat a show from 1995 when you make yours nearly a decade later. But now that Anno is "remaking" Evangelion, maybe that won't be the case. All I know for sure is that the new Eva can't rip off Rahxephon any... it would only be taking back it's own stuff.
"...and everything under the Sun is in tune, but the Sun is Eclipsed by the Moon...." -DSotM.
^ Preach the truth,my friend.
RahXephon ruined my damn Christmas. It was like watching a show about how to copy a Rei clone from Lillith's LCL(that's pretty much a summary of the plot style and several characters-Damn you, Quon!).
And I'm linking this thread to other forums, because 10 years after NGE and there are still people in denial of it's significance.
"The Evas are JUST robots", "The religious and philosophical references were just windowdressing" and other denial statements like that make me feel sad for these noobs.
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
Yes. I agree: You're sad.
I think it's strange how some vocal people find that watching RahXephon somehow "ruins" Evangelion for them. Like finally getting real sugar after only tasting aspartame for your entire life or something. Actually, no, that is a poor analogy; it's more like the difference between salt and sugar; similar on the outside but quite different once you get a taste; and both rather good.
Linking to these forums for "evidence" is not very effective though, if you seek to prove Evangelion's influence. If Evangelion's influence only was to inspire a small group of its fans to run around screaming "copycat" at other shows, then that would be a rather lame mark left on the world. Evangelion is more significant than that.
And no, the Evas are not just robots, but the religious references WERE just windowdressing. The creators have said so, even. Look forward to the new Evangelion movies, where the religious references might be toned down. What was NOT window-dressing are the psychological references, though.
"And no, the Evas are not just robots, but the religious references WERE just windowdressing. The creators have said so, even. Look forward to the new Evangelion movies, where the religious references might be toned down. What was NOT window-dressing are the psychological references, though."
The assistant director denied that the show contained any Jewish or Christian themes. Which is understandable considering Japanese censor laws aren't very tolerant of much(mainly foreign religions, same for our country). Or it could have been the fact that he was the world's first Evangelion noob!
Much of the staff at Gainax did not know Hebrew literature or Freudian philosophy. The person who was working on these concepts was called Hideaki Anno(the director, and ONLY person who knew how the show was going to end, and how it was to be delivered).
You can see him fleshing out the concepts and characters from his other earlier works and homages to shows that have the same concept(Nadia, Gunbuster, Space Runaway Ideon).
Combine that with the personal delivery of each character and you come to realize the quote from Hideaki wasn't a lie "Evangelion is myself. It is all of me." Each character can be synchronized to a part of his depressional stage. Shinji-suicidal, obedient Japanese citizen, Asuka-the girlfriend and family members who abandoned him when he was suicidal, Gendo-obvious parental frustration source, Rei-acceptance of life's miseries, vegetarian, etc., etc.
THEN he has them play out Judeo-Christian roles as they come to terms with the Meaning of Life. As the show starts, NONE of the characters doubt or question that they are being punished by God(with the Angels' development, they could have just been aliens?). Why? Because to Hideaki Anno, God is a certainty. It probably never occurred to him to have them question the existence of God (People who convert know that introspection is usually the best way for people to come to this conclusion).
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
[deleted]
Well...
People who fall in love with RahXephon, describe it to me in Eva terms and it sickened me when I watched it to see it was just an Eva fanboy with a huge budget.
But he failed to reach a level of complexity or decent style. Bad shows make anime haters cite them for a long time to put down anime.
I like to cut them off at the knees(Internet coverage).I see alot of bashing of Eva for being too extreme, but it had Grave of the Fireflies style tragedy that people just couldn't handle. Those people need to grow up, in real wars they kill babies. And the murderers are just as aloof as Gendo.
And now that you have mentioned it.
Only people who have seen Eva understand RahX.
You seem to think you understood it. What was not confusing about RahX(except the unended conversations, unexplained tactical moves of the enemy,and cliffhanger endings).
I know it's based off of a fantasy novel about timetravel and Mayan culture. And the allusions to art are surrealistic. Other than that, it was a viewer-friendly version of a masterpiece(PC).
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
[deleted]
Sorry I didn't respond for such a long time, but I just didn't care anymore, either.
A former RahXephon contacted me and said he realized the point when he thought RahXephon began ripping-off Eva. I chuckled and said episode one? He said when Asahina died.
Sweet, sweet validation. And he is a little irritated that characters haven't died in proportion to the danger they are supposed to be in.(that's why he is a former fan)
Truce accepted.
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
[deleted]
Asahina died an Eva death. In fact, the events leading to her death were step-by step events of Toji's encounter with Shinji. Except warped to make an alien leader able to put the pilot status upon her, and change the outcome so that she died. But they made sure Ayato makes the same face Shinji would except leave out the trademark panic scream. OOOOOh, so original. <_< And he does the trademark eyeshot, then scream then fade to black several times, when he doesn't really need to!
Gundam has scenarios like this but this setup wasn't taken from any mech show I've seen.
"WHAT!? There are hundreds of scenes in Evangelion where characters haven't died in proportion to the surrounding danger!
You seriously have to be lying or joking. No one could be that stupid."
What is Rahxephon's explanation for simply executing all the characters at the end(except for the one jetfighter pilot they covered for all of 5 minutes, and then began the next ep totally erasing him)?
Eva was following a military pacing. You win some, you lose some. Kaji screwed up was assassinated when the hierarchy didn't want him anymore, during activation of these Evas they mothers were pretty much offered as acceptable losses for the project, suicides(attempted and otherwise), Rei was murdered/died, SEVERAL TIMES! The war for survival is supposed to take a toll. Not a an emo-friendly affair where no one crucial dies until they need shock value!
Like I have stated countless times, cliches can be modified according to a directorial style. You can vent like a baby all you want, but the anime industry saw their clihes twisted like never before when Eva came out. Gundam keeps spitting out the same mech crap, but Eva gave it soul. RahXephon tried to make that soul into a cash cow(even Gainax is trying).
There you go again saying Eva fanboys haven't watched other shows. Well, I have and RahXephon is clearly a clone. (Gundam(the bajillion of them, War in the Pocket was the most soulful), Macross Zero, FLCL, RahXephon, Blue Gender(another one with soul), Bakuretsu Tenshi(another cheap one), Dual,Transformers(crappy, and a cheap cash cow) Fafner(another clone job)). i keep a list of ripoff shows(Chobits/DearS reference). I can tell if a show outdoes it's predecessors also, that's how come no one cares Ideon was the original concept, it was completely outclassed by it's fan(Anno). Why settle for less, or the cheaper version of the same concept.
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
"Um... Sorry to disagree with you, but Shinji is an annoying, whiny wimp. Always has been a wimp, always will be a wimp. Don't deny it.
Sure Shinji did all of that stuff you mentioned, but he usually complained or whined all the way through it. I don't call that strength.
I love Eva, but I rather dislike its characters. They never did anything to really make me care about them.
In short, I love Eva for its story, not its characters. If that makes any sense..."
-Burner Dinorexion quote on What is the Lance Of Longinus thread
You fail Evangelion automatically. The characters were based on people Anno(and the staff) interacted with(Gainax does that consistently!). He wasn't pulling dysfunctions out of the air. You are supposed to replace most characters in Evangelion with people you know, then you will clearly see why a director would have them behave that way(Census Bureau states that 73% of American families live in dysfunctional families, dysfunction is the norm. And Japan has a shockingly high suicide rates, but media is censored to it). That's why Evangelion is a coming-of-age-love story. The children were dealing with desperate adults while trying to grasp what maturity and love is.
RahXephon was just a chaotic mix of beautiful graphics, random poetry and emo-grade "homage".(I already discussed this with you about them introducing this plethora of characters and then dropping their arcs from the plot) No one I have ever met would do the things they did(except emo kids, and I hate emo, that's why I'm disgusted with RahXephon) <_<
SEE: "Shinji is not a sick bastard" thread for more elaboration on why Evangelion's tragedy wasn't emo.
PS: The religious references were more well-researched than normal references. If you can write of the rich and creative uses of the symbology, then I feel a little sad for you. I have to, one of the main messages of Evangelion(and the Bible) was that apathy is one of the greatest evils of Mankind. Windowdressing would be RahX being an object of sound, but using swords, bows and guns to accomplish what it could vocally do.
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Frankeyfrank. Asahina=Kawouru?
I never stated that comparison to the Asahina death=Toji fight. That was Burner. He is seriously misguided when it comes to Eva. he counters my observations with sarcasm, but does not defend RahXephon's concepts with observations. He is a flamer. I am a flamebaiter. ]:)- I have been called annoying, but never blatant ly incorrect.
Asahina=superfluous arc(where they show the marshlands of Tokyo 3 and the movie explaining homage from NGE ep 4, and introduce the older Kaji-like detective that investigates government coverups exactly like Kaji's role in Eva), then Toji fight homage. The only useful character development was Asahina's panic over her blood type, which was cancelled out by Ayato pretty much forgetting her in 2 eps. <_<
And the "ally into enemy" cliche was one of direct treachery until Evangelion turned it into a tense kidnapping situation where the hero is unaware that he is about to destroy his close friendship by killing the target. (Plus having the the true behaviour of the aloof commander Gendo crushing the will of his son directly implied a sadistic and darker drive to the plot. This is what put Evangelion over simply gun-burdened mechs piloted by children defending the world cliche.)
RahXephon tried to steal that concept also, but the "Deus Ex Machina" method of having the alien leader, Maya(Ayato's mother) place Asahina into the role of Toji was too convenient. But the dying message in the lights was their own original touch.(If RahX did not pull out so many swords and bows and stuck to using words and songs as weapons, it would have made the show more original, imo) Plus they did they close-up on Ayato's eye reaction and it pulled my mind back to Anno's signature style, especially for Shinji's screams(which Rah homaged quite randomly. ]:(- ).
I would like to know what it said(my fansub did not translate it or the diary).
And if you saw the Anno-approved unremastered release of NGE's dialougue(Script 1.1), Kawouru and Shinji's is a brotherly love. You picked it up, good. The Remastered boxset caused this confusion and it is an example of turning a great scene into a cheap yaoi fangirl attempt(Anno did not direct the Remastered). The remastered also inserted that stupid SEELE and Kawouru dialogue that proves my observation that the anime industry is trying to spoonfeed plots to new viewers.
Be aware that fansubs and other directorial releases are not the original and will lead to confusion of one of the most interwining plots in modern art. Wierd, how this drama plays out like the Bible and it's confused translations.
Dolems operate by having an Instrumentalist chosen from birth(one that is a reincarnated Mu on our plane of existence, aka a synchronized Evangelion pilot's requirements as the Adam shockwave irradiated fetuses and made them viable to carry out Instrumentality also a clear homage to Zen)(somehow, the mechanics of the RahXephon mechs were never clearly explained, Evangelion's are based on the Apocryha's accounts of humans interbreeding with Angels)
What do I need to read to find out how these Dolems were operating? All I was saw was Babem made 2 RahXs, and they are made of clay. But they have wings and rocket boosters AND musical voices that can levitate them?!?!?!?!? (Which giant organic mechs have voices and the voices are linked with God-like powers, other than Rah and Eva?)
Yes, I have a rip-off list. It is very helpful for seperating homage and parodies, from clones. As in the case of Fuuishi Yuugi vs. Inuyasha. They both suck as shoujou cliches, but Inuyasha steals the setups from FY to the point of being a more modern remake(with a different director's name on the package). No offense, but that is what I call a clone. And me liking Rah more than Eva is as possible as me liking Family Guy more than South Park or Simpsons. Not gonna happen.
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PS: Wikipedia(not cited source): Hideaki Anno's early projects included Hayao Miyazaki's Nausicaa. I thought the "God's of Fire"(organic mech giants) in the plot, were inspired by Miyazaki but that may not be the case. Anno impressed Miyazaki with the designs and was hired, that completely increases my observation that Anno's style was to use his more organic versions of abstract concepts to portray his own cliches upon the viewer.
(People who claim Gunbuster's, FLCL, Kare Kano, Wings of Honneamise, and Nadia character's are similar to Evangelion are right, he was the lead creative element on those too. Eva was simply his favorite personalities doing their best development)
Kazuya Tsurumaki-Anno's apprentice, the guy who said NGE's religious references were meaningless.(aka the staff of Gainax all say no one knew what Anno was thinking, including this guy!)
He is talentless and unoriginal(just watch the 2nd half of Kare Kano which Anno let him finish, and FLCL, which Anno secretly participated on, Anno even played the fat cat with big balls(LOL), but censored his name in the credits, so this complex, coming-of-age romance plot(sound familiar? Eva homages every 15 minutes clear it up?) could all be credited to his apprentice). Anno=generous Master.
And quit chopping up my ideas to make them look chaotic, my paragraphs are to be taken as a whole.
I hope this clears up all this confusion, I am very busy, so at least respond with non-rambling "vents". They are humourous, but childish.
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
[deleted]
Asahina=Kawouru is your concept. Mine is Asahina=Toji.
Anno is deceptive and reclusive. He has many conflicting interview statements, that's why some fans say End of Eva was revenge. But if you take a religious(God-existing) look at Eva, it shows he is making a large allegory to human potential unrestrained) under an aloof Creator.(Gulliver's Travel was also social commentary of this nature, Eva has a ep named Lilliputian Hitcher, Anno is superbly well-read).
If you take an atheistic view, Eva philosophically breaks down Humanity's urge to try to become the God(non-existant) in our lives.
By warping(not really these are just less public concepts) religious concepts, he placed more Humanity into his concept of Almighty(giant God-like wombs being penetrated countless times, in a desperate attempt to achieve the best of Humanity(God as a womb is easily interpreted from the Bible, but the writers of the Bible were/are a male-dominated society = offensive to modern day believers)). That kinda surpasses all mech shows, even indie films have difficulty pulling off concepts like that. The man is warped, but genius.
When I realized Rah was going to do the same angle, I gave them till ep 3 to go in a new direction with the concept(since nothing is cliche when done properly and uniquely). Then a fan told me it was different at the end. I was going to skip to it, but then I considered that I would be lost. I watched each ep, was bored then confused, then insulted when it finished without answering points it had brought up.
What is the social structure of the Mu? Why are they so inconsistent with their attack? An army attacks in organized divisions, what was the deal with Angel-style setups and powers?
What was the significance of the rod Quon pulled from Ayato's throat?
Why did most of her poetry not synch-up with any event? Was that just bad dubbing?
What did the Golden tablet say? Is the tablet fictional? Or does it just serve the same purpose as the Dead Sea Scrolls in Eva? Why didn't they just reference the Mayan prophecy of the end of the world. I think it's 2012. But the time in the Mu bubble was 2015? Homage?
Why didn't Rah use his voice more? Like say single notes specialized to do a certain thing? Instead of the energy weapons.
How did Ayato just erase the Mu from his past like that?
Was Ayato's choice overly selfish, or is that just me? I mean kill them, and make your life perfect. o_0
I saw the references to the surrealistic art. The landscape of clocks was reminiscent of Dali and the plot of the time-travel story that inspired this show.
But ticking clocks and bluebirds with wings that make people look like angels doesn't go further than cliche.
Plus, this love story with deviations of interest from Ayato and him willing to use his Godlike powers to recreate a world was the same thing Anno did with Shinji, so stop saying Eva wasn't a love-story, remove the mechs and it was playing out like Kare Kano(one of the most realistic romances in the anme community).
There's nothing dark about love, simply what some people do to achieve it(Eva had more people on the love battlefield, because that's what it is, a battle). Shinji was by far more motivated, and willing to self-sacrifice. i consider that much more romantic. That's why Evangelion was more uplifting, the characters cried when they hurt and smiled when they were happy, but they always tried their best for whatever goal they had, nevermind it was morally wrong. Rah was completely restrained when it came to tht aspect, and that simply was comical to me. Eva showed breaking restraint, and they had returned to that system within it's first anniversary. lol
I had other questions but I realized this show was a joke, played by a sick Eva-fanboy, who got his dream to have his name attached to a show with alot of Eva scenes.
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
[deleted]
That was actually quite informative. ]:)-
Eva isn't only a pubescent love story, it's also a political commentary dealing with WW2(the Angels crushing Nerv = Allies crushing Japan and how populations survive and rebuild),
A religious commentary(Where and what is "God"? Is it Us? Is "God" observant? By the laws of Nature, is "God" a female?),
A commentary on Immortality(LCL-stem cells, cloning, brains kept attached to supercomputers, and collective "souls"-brainwave patterns, living forever, as one network of thought are all technological views on what computers can help Humanity achieve as different means of Immortality). Very forward-thinking concepts, and used exactly as necessary, especially when Shinji gives up Immortality because it isn't Reality. Reality means that you have to die. Circle of Life.
Then maybe a racial commentary(the Eva's apparently are of African descent and are restrained from their full potential, ironically-twisted comment on slavery?) Plus DNA has proven that Humanity descended from Ethiopians(same ones referenced in the Bible as having the Ark of the Covenant) And he turned that into a beautiful symbolism, Africans carry "Noah's Ark" organically and can save Humanity in a very sexual event.(his opinion that racial interbreeding isn't a big deal? He is a vegetarian and liberal. ]:)- )
I saw it as a love story AFTER Shinji and Asuka had the domestic abuse scene. Anno was really crying out to someone when he put that in. End od Eva had some of the same dialogue my parents used when argueing. It was just too real. But when you rewatch the earlier frustrations/connections from that viewpoint you can clearly see Anno's opinions on male-female bonding(his parents and girlfriend).
It might be dark philosophy(at the middle, but the endings gave a determined upward message)But then, again love is the most vulnerable/violent motivation for us.
This is why I didn't like RahXephon. Eva did everything that was done before, but it interwove these complex concepts into a personal delivery. RahXephon simply felt too generic and confused. Even with the helpful info, there are still gaps in certain angles.
Sorry for the flamebaiting, but that is my honest opinion.
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
[deleted]
Rahxephon ripped-off of Eva, just as FFXII ripped-off of Star Wars. What a lot of people seem to think, is that this a bad thing. I loved Eva, and I'm loving Rahxephon. The show bears a striking similarity to Eva, but that's a good thing. it's a common misconception that ripping-off is always a negative thing. This is not the case for Rahxephon. Admittedly, I'm only on episode 11 of Rahxephon, but to say that the similarites aren't there is just blind fanboyism.
share"to say that the similarites aren't there is just blind fanboyism."
That's true. Still, why do some people assume that any and all perceived similarities are caused by "inspiration" from Eva to Rah? As if it was the only apocalyptic mecha show out there.
To qualify as a "rip-off", it has to be pretty much a bad imitation under a new name. Being a "rip-off", then, takes more than being slightly similar to another product. For example, The movie The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers is not a rip-off of the Bible nor of Triumph des Willens just because it takes inspiration from those earlier works. A counter-example of a typical rip-off: "Rolex" copies named "Rotex" or some such. :-)
"Rip-off" has always had a negative meaning. But if more people use "rip-off" the way you use it in your post, then suddenly those people who said Evangelion was a RahXephon rip-off start making sense.
We all know there are similarities. But has anyone, anywhere, heard about whether Rah actually did borrow, pay homage, reference or rip off anything from Evangelion?
Read the posts, please gunnar(flamewar extended to multiple threads).
Countless references to the fact that Eva is based on shows before(Anno's words, but done uniquely, inspired but not cloning),
and RahXephon "...While some reviewers only judged the show on its own merits, others compared it with varying favour against shows such as Brain Powerd, Megazone 23 and Neon Genesis Evangelion." -Wikipedia.
Link to these shows a read the analysis of their plot executions. Then compare to what the Director said it was supposed to be (Brave Raideen).
Also stated how accurate Wikipedia has gotten.
The attempt to hide wide-range "borrowing" is what gets a show labeled "rip-off". Again, Chobits vs. DearS reference.
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
Could you please edit your post to have full sentences and stuff? When you speak of "countless references", are you referring to the discussion threads, Anno's words, Wikipedia, or in general?
"Also stated how accurate Wikipedia has gotten."
What is that sentence supposed to mean?
We've seen some fans and reviewers compare the show, but I was asking about the what the creators actually did and their intentions. There's bound to be more written about it, but most of it is probably in Japanese. Perhaps asking in this forum is expecting too much.
From my discussions with burner,it seems Anno worked with the RahXephon director on RahXephon. That is not surprising, he drops in to help on mech projects. Aferwards, Rah's director said Rah was based off of Raideen(which is a Tomino work, Gundam creator also), why not work with Tomino then? Don't know.
But having learned all this after seeing RahXephon and already quite convinced this was Anno-inspired, didn't help the non-clone argument. Raideen references are blatant in RahXephon, but the style(postmodernism/surrealism) of presentation and most of the major concepts were put together in Evangelion. And the intellectually-insulting way it was done, brings to mind the crappiness that might be the Eva Live Action movie. If it spoonfeeds like RahXephon, it is just going to be a crap mech show.
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
Anno and Izubuchi worked on Gundam and Cutie Honey. Anno was interviewed in a RahXephon guide book, but he's not credited for any work on the show itelf.
Actually, Anno took some of his inspiration from Sunrise shows that Izubuchi also had worked on, right?
When we have a hard time figuring out who "ripped off" who we might be seeing genre features rather than direct influence.
Mech genre is now defined as Eva. lol Before it used to be Gundam, and before that Robotech. Before that who cares...Astroboy was original, but sooo lame.
"Genre features" are simply heavy periods of a show/concept being ripped off. Evangelion was a ripoff it would be more like the Gundam series, lots of shooting, nameless non-suffering pilots, doing ubercool things and winning against other veteran mech pilots. No Freud, little symbolism, no religious implications...nothing but "Imma charging ma laser!"-Just had to do that. ]D-
But seriously, Cutie Honey was Anno's first attempt at live action. They worked together as Master and Apprentice. My observation that RahXephon is from an Eva fanboy with a big budget sounds more and more reasonable. Genre features, my ***.
I regret nothing. ]:)-
You know where to find me-pissing off the stupid folk
"Before that who cares...Astroboy was original, but sooo lame."
Two things about originality:
- Being original doesn't necessarily mean good
- A lot of the things people think are original are not really original - they just don't know the sources well enough
""Genre features" are simply heavy periods of a show/concept being ripped off."
My point is that when we have such a hard time figuring out a definite source for all the "ripped off" concepts, i.e. when we can't point to a single show and say: "That's where it all comes from", then the show is not really a rip-off.
"Evangelion was a ripoff it would be more like the Gundam series, lots of shooting, nameless non-suffering pilots, doing ubercool things and winning against other veteran mech pilots. "
You suddenly forgot Ideon and the other non-Gundam mecha shows? Gundam is pretty similar to Eva in some ways too: Boy pilots father's mecha, boy runs away and won't pilot again, is imprisoned and replaced by a female pilot etc. etc.
And speaking of Robotech: Megazone 23, one of the sources of Robotech: The movie (Robotech was made by mixing Japanese shows) has been described by some as one of the inspirations for RahXephon and possibly an inspiration for Evangelion as well.
"They worked together as Master and Apprentice."
Master and Apprentice? Is Anno a costume designer now? Izubuchi is Anno's senior by the way, in case you didn't know.
Since RahXephon was made by ex-Sunrise people and Anno was inspired by some Sunrise shows, does that make Eva a "rip-off" of those shows?
"My observation that RahXephon is from an Eva fanboy with a big budget sounds more and more reasonable."
Replace "Eva" with "Raideen" and it sounds reasonable. What's more likely: That Izubuchi is a "fanboy" regarding a show he watched when he was 17 years old vs. a show made by his junior colleague when he was in his late thirties? Izubuchi might be an Evangelion fan - or not - I don't know - but by that time I think he's too old to be a "fanboy" of Eva.
*skips everything after page 4*
I read through a website that shows the similarities between the two series' (I don't remember where it was) and it was pretty obvious that RahXephon borrows really heavily from Eva.
It's still pretty great, though, in it's own right.
Rah isn't a "clone" of Eva. The storyline is vastly different. However, Rah borrowed so much from Eva that comparisons are inevitable. Character ideas, episodes, scenes, dialogue, subtext, narrative devices and more are drawn right from Eva and put in Rah. There are some episodes that follow Eva's lead almost perfectly.
Rah still isn't a clone, but more like a model based on the same mold. Anno even admitted that he was "a copy of a copy". That makes Rah "a copy of a copy of a copy". Rah's unique take on the storyline alone saved it from being a clone.
This is a logical fallacy: "Neither Eva or Rah is original, therefor Rah is not a clone of Eva."
originality VS. influence
Originality and influence have nothing to do with each other. Metropolis was more original and inventive than Blade Runner, but Blade Runner influenced future films more than Metropolis.
Evangelion's core idea is not original: In fact, that's almost the point. The first two episodes could almost be said to be a subtle, sardonic parody of the entire "giant robot genre". What separates Eva from Rah is Eva is almost always self-aware. This is proven by the Jean-Luc Godard instances where Eva points the camera directly at itself and its audiences. Eva is about setting up the wall, the facade, the "lie", and then breaking it down through its characters and narrative. What confuses most is that they buy in so much to the lie, when the "true self" is shown, they get all confused about what actually happened.
Rah, however, is always mired in the illusion. It never escapes. It never moves beyond the realm of fantasy. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just places all the more emphasis on its fantasy elements to succeed. Sadly, most don't. At the lowest, basal, most rudimentary levels is where Rah succeeds - and that's in its storyline. Many are incapable of looking past that to see all the flaws in the design. These flaws - if the series had been more self-aware - would not be as detrimental. But because it takes its illusion so seriously, it's because of these flaws that it fails where Eva does not.
Last Films Seen:
The Return ('03) [8.5/10]
Downfall - [7.0/10]
lol RahXephon just this; RahXephon just that. You know Evangelion was just Freudian thought gone out of control. He obsessed over one thought and illustrated just that on a global scale. Nothing wrong with that. It makes Eva more personal. However, that's where the subtext ends. RahXephon was packed full of it and subtle as all hell. Yes, there were various allusions to art and Mayan culture, but there was also psychological and philosophical elements that went way over most people's heads. It's funny really. Everyone tries to write off RahXephon as a more simple version of NGE, when it is RahXephon that is truly the more complicated and fearsome beast. There was a lot of Carol. A lot of Through the Looking Glass. A lot of social commentary as well.
Besides, if you want a true psychological anime, pick up Gantz. Everything is portrayed far more realistically than either or. There are a $hi+ ton of references to all sorts of different philosophies and the human condition. The only thing is you need quite a high tolerance level and good stomach to boot.
I can't believe all of you missed linking this website:
http://evaxephon.com/gallery1.html
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
I can't believe all of you missed linking this website:
http://evaxephon.com/gallery1.html
While he makes some dubious connections, it's impossible to deny all of the similarities.
Last Films Seen:
Wild at Heart - [7.0/10]
The Fountain - [9.0/10]
Hey, spoiler warning, dude!
If there are any valid points in there, they've been pretty well buried in dubious ones, not to mention all the mistakes he makes - both misunderstanding the plot and simply making mistakes. He pretty much admits in the FAQ that he doesn't care whether the comparisons are valid or not. I've seen screenshots of forum conversations where these things were pointed out to him and he still hasn't corrected the mistakes.
I'd also say that he missed some of the significant similarities, and focused on trivial things which are found in lots of other movies and TV shows.
The worst part is the false impression that events happen in the same manner and order, and creating "scenes" by joining screenshots from several episodes - which might be convincing for somebody who haven't actually watched the shows. The thing that is most confusing though, is these "character clone" relationships, where one character is supposedly cloned from several(?) other characters. How does that work?
I never saw that site before I saw Rah, but even I noticed a ton of similarities. I mean, there are some obvious things that are stolen directly from Eva: mech being sucked into a shadow, guy landing on girl with hand on breast (I mean, come on!), some borrowed philosophy, etc. Some of it was quite distracting as it's not even subtle copying. It's like "whoa, major sense of deja vu" copying.
Last Films Seen:
Wild at Heart - [7.0/10]
The Fountain - [9.0/10]
Mech sinking into the ground: Very yes. This is the most Evangelion-like episode in the show. http://www.dellamente.com/quicksand/doc/qsmovies.htm (See also and Japan Sinks - a remake of this 1973 movie was made in 2006 with Anno in a cameo; the type of sinking here is a bit different.)
The breast thing I didn't think about, as it wasn't an accident, but rather Haruka placing his hand on her breast IIRC and it was a dream sequence so the situations were quite different. (Lots of breast fondling in many series with sex in them.)
It didn't matter how it came about, it was still VERY reminiscent. How many animes have a scene with the male lead on top of the female lead with his hand on her breast? But please read my post about originality VS. influence. One has very little to do with the other.
Last Films Seen:
Wild at Heart - [7.0/10]
The Fountain - [9.0/10]
> It didn't matter how it came about, it was still VERY reminiscent.
You were reminded of it, but it kinds of ends there unless there is some other connection between the scenes.
It's different not just how it came about (accident vs. deliberate), but what it means (how Rei is more concerned for Gendou than for her own body vs. Ayato being confronted with desire), how the character(s) feel about it, dream vs. real, clothed vs. nude, actual position, etc.
As for influence and originality, this is not likely to be an Eva influence. "Haruka" acts more like a Succubus in this scene. If I had to compare it to anything in Evangelion, I would rather compare it to the scenes in Complementation where Rei, Asuka and Misato appear to Shinji and entice him - though the RahXephon scene is more scary and unsettling.
> How many animes have a scene with the male lead on top of the female lead with his hand on her breast?
Hello most hentai films ever released! Hand-on-breast also happens in non-hentai anime titles from time to time, both lying down and standing up.
Hello most hentai films ever released!
Nice try, but that isn't what I was talking about!
One could argue that most everything that Rah borrows from Eva is used in different context and therefor means something different. It's like the hand motif: Present in both works, but they mean something quite different in both. It still doesn't excuse Rah from borrowing the concepts, it just prevents it from being an absolute clone.
I don't see what real difference it makes. Every work borrows from something from the past. I guess the argument is to what extent. Does Rah borrow so much from Eva that it's trying to emulate and copy it? Well, that's up to the individual. I know when watching it I was struck by that deja vu, been there, seen that quite a bit. But seeing how different the overall narrative is, IMO it's not gratuitous copying. But where I think Rah fails has nothing to do with it borrowing from Eva anyway. So that's really not a big problem for me.
Last Films Seen:
Wild at Heart - [7.0/10]
The Fountain - [9.0/10]
I see. Note that it's not just in Hentai, though, as I said.
As for the "hand-motif" he gets blood on his hand twice, but there's none of Shinji's hand-clenching going on in Rah. (You know how Shinji opens and closes his hand.)
That reminded me of something hilarious from that site:
"A note - In RahXephon, Ayato gets red blood on his hands, and later blue blood. In Evangelion, Shinji only gets red blood on his hands, but the color blue is also featured prominently in the camera shot, thanks to Rei's hair. Perhaps the creators of RahXephon obtained the 'blue blood' idea from seeing the color of Rei's hair along with Shinji's bloody hand."
I almost fell off my chair. It's as if he had never heard the expression "blue blood" before, or ever heard of stuff like The X-Files and other science fiction and fantasy where aliens or other beings have a different blood color. Not to mention that anime censors sometimes change the color of blood as if that was supposed to make bloody scenes less violent.
This is how I see this Rah vs. Eva thingy:
The two stories HAVE similarities. What they are, some of you already listed them down. Thing is Eva is older so naturally we'll assume that Rah borrowed Ideas from Eva, fine. However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that Rah is a rip-off of Eva. It's like trying to compare The TIGER tank to the ABRAMS tank. Sure enough, the Tiger would be blown to pieces if it were to face the ABRAMS tank, but that's because the Abrams is the NEWER tank. To fully appreciate the Tiger tank you should be comparing it to its contemporaries, like the Sherman which is infamous for being Tiger tank fodder. The same goes with the two anime. Eva is one of if not the best series because it completely outclassed ITS CONTEMPORARIES. It presented an entirely different and groundbreaking(however not fully original) storyline that, as some of you said, blew your minds away. Because of this success, many mecha-anime have adapted similar concepts/ideas(Not necessarily storylines BTW) and of all those that did Rah Xephon is probably one of if not the best, hence the comparison to the pioneer series.
My 2 cents.
Eva is one of if not the best series because it completely outclassed ITS CONTEMPORARIES
Its contemporaries, the animes it inspires, those that inspired it, almost all of modern film... There's very little that Eva doesn't outclass. Again, I truly believe it stands up with the absolute best film has to offer period. NGE is not just great anime, it is great film and, more importantly, great art. NGE's storyline is only one small thread of its greatness and some (including myself) would argue a rather insignificant one. Yes, it needed its storyline as a kind of track to drive the train, but that's really all the story is is the track. If that's all your paying attention to you're missing the train and all the cargo it's carrying for the track alone.
Last Films Seen:
Dekalog - [10/10]
The Lives of Others - [8.5/10]
Are you kidding me? This is one of the biggest rip-offs I've ever seen. And an inferior one at that. It's like the Fuji TV looked at Evangelion and said, "Hey, that looks really popular! Let's do the same thing, but make protagonist better looking with thicker arms, broad shoulders, and cool hair. Also let's add way more girls and give them bigger boobs! More fights and explosions! Yeah, otaku's will eat it up!"
And so it was.
If Rahxephon seems better than Eva, it's because its presentation and characters are easier to identify with, its core storyline more digestable. It pretends to be overly self-involved and cryptic, but ultimately the plot reduces to an facile love story (one that doesn't seem realistic to me, because it's never explained why Kamina abruptly falls in love with Haruka. He seems to jump from one love interest to another.)
First let me establish that Rahxephon is a thinly veined ripoff. The premise is the same: a boy pilots a giant robot, defending the local army from bizarre monsters that periodically attack. Instead of taking inspiration from gnostic christian gospels, they use mesoamerican folklore. This makes for different situations and monsters, but they had to chose a different religion to invoke or they'd get sued outright. The whole music is cute, but that just goes along with the different theme they chose.
Almond or raisin, they're both still cookies.
They copy the same character achetypes from Eva. Observe:
Kamina = Shinji
Haruka = Misatou
Quon = Rei
Megumi = Asuka
Sayoko = Ritsuko
Bahbem = Gendou
Mamoru = Toji
Johji = Kaji
Souichi = Hyuga
Notice Quon has longer hair, bigger breasts, and is more sexualized than Rei. So is every other woman in the show. When they're not throwing themselves at Kamina (who has NO interest in sex, he's totally innocent minded, just like all hormonal teenage boys...), they're running around in bikini's. Eva did a little of this too, but not at this level. Hmmm, I wonder why fanboys seem to like this show better...
Kamina is a stock character. He's an anime archetype; the innocent, thoughtful, polite boy with a strong sense of justice and deep fear of women. He's a "mary sue" character, or in this case a "gary lou." He has no clear motivations, but in the end the writers decided he was desperate for love. So they have him hop from three love interests in rapid succession at the end of the series. Shinji Ikari by comparison is selfish, introverted, childish, sneaky, and irresponsible. He masturbates! He needs approval from other people to feel good about himself. He's a coward. He's...human.
By the way, Evangelion's plot makes MORE SENSE than Rahxephon's does.
That's right. I said it!
I watched the whole Eva series and the movies, and I could tell you 90% of what was going on. It's not that hard to figure out. I saw Rahxephon and I still don't know what the villain's motivations were. Do the writers even know? Aren't Maya and Bahbem working together? So why are Bahbem's agents working for TERRA, which fights the Mulians? If the point is to kill all humans, and you have control of TERRA why not...shut TERRA down? If the Mulians had giant super Dolems, why didn't they use those earlier? Why wait till the barrier goes down to pull some surprise attack? Why is Haruka madly, desperately in love with some boy she hasn't seen for years? (Can we say obsessed??)
The whole conflict is phoney and contrived. The Mulians basically let Kamina run around and do what he likes. When he gives in and becomes a Mulian he ends up remaking the world (also a concept ripped off from Eva) the way he wants to. Sooo....what was the point? Kamina wasn't going to give the universe to the Mulians anyway. It's an empty conflict serving as a wrapper for an unearned, simplistic love story.
Let me also say Rahxephon's only draw to watch it is to figure out what all of it means. The character's aren't interesting, nor are their struggles. In Eva every episode was exciting because the characters all knew they had a 1% chance of actually surviving each angel attack. Every climax was intense and dramatic and you have no idea how they're going to make it out alive. That made it entertaining. Rahxephon is dull by comparison. While Kamina is a more active protagonist than Shinji, he solves fewer of his own problems (Reika frequently saves him.)
And that's what I've got to say. Just my $0.02.
[deleted]
More like Evangelion done right
I really don't get how people can say this.
If you honestly believe that Eva and Rah had the same ambitions in what they were trying to achieve, then I think you probably weren't paying much attention to one, or either of them.
Eva is one of the few anime series that can be described as cinematic.
Rahxephon is just a mediocre, forgetable Studio Bones project, much like Wolf's Rain, Eureka Seven and Full Metal Alchemist.
It's not terrible, but it's totally unremarkable. You can't talk about anything it does in terms of characterisation or cinematography etc, as transcending anime. It doesn't stand out significantly from those other anime series I mentioned. Just look about how fans of the series discuss it online. Ninety percent of the discussion is just explaining how it's not a clone of Eva. Nobody who's watched it is actually inspired enough to talk about the plot and character wrtiting, cinematography etc. If you really liked a work of art, wouldn't you want to discuss what was good about it in itself, as opposed to just contrasting it with some other work of art?
Of course it's an Eva clone... but I like Eva better.
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