MovieChat Forums > Earthlings (2005) Discussion > vegan isn't the solution

vegan isn't the solution


i watched this doc on the net searching on google and i have to say that it touched me... for 2 weeks i couldn't eat meat, not because i felt i should became a vegan but because the simple idea of meat made me sick... (before i was a meat lover )

nowadays i eat meat but just 3 meals tops for week. i consider myyself a fishtarian since im a vegetarian that eat fish lol ...

well i don't think that the solution for this problem is people becaming vegan, thats not good for your health... if u became a vegan u have to take proteins and other suplements that only meat have and are necessary to your health... i think the right thing is just to reduce the excessive use of meat in our societies and have more rigorouse laws and fiscalization... since most things that are shown in this doc are forbiden by law in portugal and in most european countries (im a environmental health tecnician) i find it hard that this happens here and the import of meat that portugal does is from european countries where the reality is the same... i don't know the reality in USA... although we all know that it still exist but it isn't the common pratice... this happens mostly in 3 world countries so becaming a vegan would help a thing... u have to change the law, the fiscalization and the concept of people toward animals... thats the solution... i just wanted to say this since most people here defend becaming a vegan the miracle solution... for me its just the confortable solution... just my opinion... what do u thing?

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I think you are EXTREMELY uninformed (or at least you were 5 years ago).. you clearly havent done much research on the subject. If you did, you would find that if done correctly, veganism is the healthiest diet there is. if you had done proper research, you would find information like this

Humans Are Herbivores

Most people believe humans are carnivorous/omnivorous creatures—atop the food chain—who have been eating meat since the beginning of time. I believe a few sharks, piranhas, hyenas, bears and lions would like to have a word with us about who's ahead of who in the food chain. Most large herbivores such as rhinos, hippos, elephants and gorillas could also kill a human easily, if provoked. These animals are also ahead of us in the food chain. Humans, historically and scientifically, have always been near the bottom of the food chain. Killing during a one-on-one confrontation without weapons, and the ability to consume bloody raw flesh right from the bone without having it cause disease later on in life, have always been the only true factors in determining physiology and placement in the food chain. All genuine carnivores and omnivores eat an animal's eyes, nose, face, toes, tail, anus, inner organs, blood, brain and fur UNCOOKED. Humans have to cook certain parts of the dismembered animal so we don't become violently ill. That unequivocally makes us fake carnivores/omnivores.

Before tools, weapons, and fire, there was no meat-eating. Humans were vegan long before they turned to an unnatural diet of dead animals; we were vegan scavengers and gatherers long before we tried hunting and gathering. And, contrary to the lies being spread by biased meat-eating scientists, meat was NOT responsible for brain growth. It was plant starch, as Dartmouth University Professor Nathaniel Dominy explains in this article. Moreover, according to creation theory, humans were vegan long before we turned to a sinful diet of dead animals (check out the BIBLE and QUR'AN essays located in the Other Animal Rights Issues page, and The Garden of Vegan, the final section of this page). It was only when the Ice Age hit, and most vegetation was wiped out, that humans turned to a survival scenario of eating meat. When the Ice Age ended, we should have reverted to the vegan diet that kept us connected to, and part of, the natural world, not fallaciously on top of it.

Our human physiology is such that all the tools, weapons, hubris, deceit and technology have not magically transformed us into carnivorous/omnivorous creatures. Many anthropologists and medical experts attest to the fact that humans are completely herbivorous, plant-eating creatures. Dr. William Roberts, editor-in-chief of The American Journal of Cardiology and a professor at Baylor University, states, "Human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh—which contains cholesterol and saturated fat—was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." Dr. Milton Mills wrote an indisputable essay about human physiology as well. In their book The Vegetarian Way, nutritionists Virginia and Mark Messina compiled an easy-to-understand chart comparing human bodies to those of herbivores, omnivores and carnivores. That chart is shown just below:

Let's compare the bodies of humans and herbivores to the bodies of carnivores and omnivores. First, the length of intestines in humans and other herbivores falls somewhere between 7 to 13 times the length of the trunk/torso section of the body (I am being generous compared to the research of Mills and the Messinas). In contrast, the length of intestines in carnivores/omnivores is only 3 to 6 times the length of the trunk/torso. (The length of the trunk/torso is used as the means of comparison rather than overall body length or height because humans are bipedal animals whereas most other animals are quadrupeds.) Moreover, the interior surface of human intestines is heavily fluted and striated, whereas the interior intestinal surfaces of carnivores/omnivores tend to be smooth in comparison. The relatively short intestinal length in carnivores/omnivores, along with the relatively smooth interior surface, allow rotting animal flesh, animal protein, casein, cholesterol, trans fatty acids and saturated fat to pass through quickly; that is why it's impossible for any real carnivore/omnivore to clog their arteries. Clogged arteries, however, harms or kills 51.5 percent of all meat, dairy, egg-eating humans! Dr. William Castelli, director of the Framingham Heart Study (the world's longest running heart study), supports the aforementioned findings with additional claims about cancer rates dropping 60 percent if people stopped eating meat, cheese, milk and eggs.

Humans and other herbivores have carbohydrate digestive enzymes in their saliva, meaning our bodies were created for fruits and vegetables. Animal products have no complex carbohydrates, which is why carnivores/omnivores lack carbohydrate digestive enzymes in their saliva. Many humans who eat meat try disingenuously to exploit the fact that humans are unable to digest cellulose, and discard it during the digestion process. However, cellulose is neither beneficial nor damaging to us in any way, so our inability to digest it is irrelevant. Bonobos, which are humans' closest animal relative as they share 99.5 percent of our DNA, cannot digest cellulose either, and that's because bonobos, like humans, are fruitarians/ frugivores (ultra herbivores). The REAL issue at hand is whether humans can properly process and digest animal protein, casein, saturated fat, trans fatty acids and cholesterol—which is why these agents are responsible for nearly every disease known to humankind. The tired and shopworn "argument from cellulose indigestion" is just another diversionary tactic used by meat, dairy, and egg addicts who are unable to look in the mirror and admit that they're the key players in the Animal Holocaust.

Human teeth are broad, short, blunt, flat and spade-shaped like the teeth of other herbivores, not the fanged mouths of carnivores/omnivores. Most herbivores have canines, incisors and molars, which are used for ripping rough foods like apples, carrots or nuts. And if you truly think that humans have carnivorous/omnivorous teeth, stop at a pet store today and buy a rawhide dog bone (no soft, chewy modern-day nylon bones allowed). When you get home, gnaw on it for a few hours and destroy it with those powerful teeth of yours. ADAPTT hereby absolves itself of any lawsuits when you break and crack your weak little herbivorous teeth and the dentist charges you $10,000 to fix your mouth!

If your lower jaw moves from side to side—and you grind and chew your food—then you are unequivocally herbivorous. The jaws of carnivores/omnivores only move up and down, vertically. They don't chew; they just rip and swallow. Humans sweat through their pores to cool down. We don't pant like dogs, cats or lions to cool ourselves down. There are no claws on the human hand either, although claws are a trademark of the carnivore/omnivore. When we drive down the highway and spot a dead animal on the side of the road, I'm quite sure people don't get excited, start to salivate, come to a screeching halt, jump out of their car, scare the crows away and start munching on the dead animal. Real carnivores/omnivores eat dead, rotting animals on the side of the road. We always cook meat before eating it, even though lions don't have gazelle barbeques in the jungles of Africa.

To prove beyond a reasonable doubt that humans are herbivores, place a two-year old child in a crib with a bunny rabbit and an apple. If the child eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, then I'll eat a steak sandwich that's been dipped in ice cream! Humans have no carnivorous/omnivorous instincts whatsoever when we're born, young and growing up. There isn't a speck of carnivorism nor an iota of omnivorism in us. People become inured to the taste of blood, flesh, veins, muscles, tendons, cow secretions [milk], hen-ass droppings [eggs] and bee vomit [honey] after they're forced down our throats during childhood.

With all this physiological evidence at hand, one might wonder why many physiologists and evolutionary biologists—even the most brilliant and widely-renowned evolutionary biologists such as Richard Dawkins—would continue to indulge their addiction to meat, dairy products and eggs, and publicly rationalize their addiction in ways that wouldn't do justice to a 13-year-old. The answer is simple and clear-cut: Scientists are human, and because humans are fallible and weak, they fall prey to addictions of all kinds. And when that happens, the rational mind, supposedly invoked to combat the addiction, usually falls by the wayside. It is only when the addict brings what he feels into accord with what he knows, his ethics into accord with the scientific facts, and the contents of his stomach into accord with the contents of his rational brain, that he can break the cycle of addiction that envelops and destroys him.

(from adaptt.org)

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totally agree! I have always wondered why carnivores/omnivores never bother to cook their prey when I was a child because raw meat smells disgusting! The use of fire has really changed the human world.

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On spot.

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"To prove beyond a reasonable doubt that humans are herbivores, place a two-year old child in a crib with a bunny rabbit and an apple. If the child eats the rabbit and plays with the apple"

Oh please that is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone say. How is a two year old suppose to kill a bunny rabbit? Yeah he sounds cute but that bunny rabbit if it's an adult could kill the child if it had no other way to escape.

Human children are unique in the animal world in that it takes many many years for a human child to reach an age where he is able to hunt and take down prey. In many tribal cultures that age is 13. So saying that a 2 year old won't kill a bunny rabbit as some kind of proof of humans being herbivores is just *beep* stupid.

For example, a lion reaches the age of maturity at the age of 3. Now lets assume that a human child in the old times was entrusted as an adult at 13, that means that if you did the same experiment with a lion when it was 4 months old what do you think would happen. *beep* nothing you idiot the rabbit would be fine unless the mother killed it.

There's also the fact that hunting and killing in mammals in the animal world is always taught to the child. Mothers and fathers in the animal kingdom teach their young to kill. Wild carnivores raised by humans in captivity will not kill animals willy nilly because they were taught to behave by us. We feed them and they don't regard rabits as food because there was no one around to teach them that.

" the key players in the Animal Holocaust. "
Really! Really! You are going to equate meat eaters killing animals for food with the holocaust. You sick *beep*. Did the Nazi's purposefully breed Jews so that they could be used for food? NO THEY *beep* DIDN'T. The purpose of the holocaust was to exterminate every last Jew, that is not what we are doing to animals. We are killing them for food. It's not *beep* the same and if you try to pull some *beep* animal rights thing where you equate the struggle by African Americans for freedom to the struggle of chickens on farms you are *beep* sick and twisted in the head.

"First, the length of intestines in humans and other herbivores falls somewhere between 7 to 13 times the length of the trunk/torso section of the body (I am being generous compared to the research of Mills and the Messinas). In contrast, the length of intestines in carnivores/omnivores is only 3 to 6 times the length of the trunk/torso. (The length of the trunk/torso is used as the means of comparison rather than overall body length or height because humans are bipedal animals whereas most other animals are quadrupeds.)"

Does this take into account that humans are the only mammals that are truly bipedal? Being bipedal we are able to have a longer intestine because it does not interrupt with our movement, while we are walking or running unless we are fat and even then it is not the length of the intestine that is the problem but the actual fat.

On the other hand if a lion had a very large intestine wouldn't it be a hinderance and slow the lion down.

Your argument relies purely on the fact that the human body has features and characteristics of herbivores. But tell me this, if you cook a stake and give it to a cow, will it eat it, or give it to a bonobo chimp, will it eat it. The cow won't but a bonobo will. Bonobos and chimpanzees will eat meat when they can catch it, chimps will even eat other chimps. And if you look through our fossil record you will find human teethmarks on neanderthal bones.

Your entire argument is stupid and factually wrong because your original assumption is wrong.

Your main assumption was that humans are herbivores and then you set out to prove it, and that is not scientific, and just for the record I know all of your arguments and they all suck, the only real argument you have and it is the one that you should stick to is...Killing animals is cruel. Which it is. But that doesn't really phase as many people as you want it too.

We may not have evolved to have a diet filled with meat, but we can digest it, which means that we were probably able to get some meat every once in a while, I bet the problem became the fact that we can now get meat all the time, and that just *beep* us up.

Your welcome, now go eat your carrot while I eat this delicious burger paddy wrapped in bacon, topped with butter and deep fried. :D

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Weighing in here.
I am a veterinary nurse who has worked in multiple shelters and have basically devoted my life to saving, healing and protecting animals of all kinds.

I am also a carnivore, as are my canine family members - my dogs.

I get my meat from a local, private source that is small enough that the animals have stress-free pasture lives and believe me, it is a little more expensive (ok, a lot) but it tastes MUCH better.

I agree with eating meat. I have pretty sharp canines and after almost 8 years as a veg, I am very glad I went back to being an omnivore.

IMO, the problem is not eating meat, but factory farming. That is the enemy, vegans, not people who eat meat.

Worldwide veganism is not going to happen - especially with the aggressive, shaming/guilting techniques that many vegans use (which just makes most people dislike them and think all veg people are pushy, nasty people trying to control everyone around them.

Your dietary choices are not a political statement. They're just your diet.
I don't give a rat's heiny about yours and you shouldn't mine.

So if you have a problem with meat consumption, go over the heads of the people that eat it and fight bad factory farming conditions.
Animals CAN live natural, healthy, happy lives and be slaughtered humanely.
The livestock I worked with never even saw it coming.

That being said about the "rabbit and apple" thing, it's retarded logic.
If you put a rabbit STEW and an apple in front of a kid, they're likely to pick either. We don't eat rabbits raw like apples. That's silly.

And BTW, if you eat anything that had a mother, you're an OMNIVORE.
This "I'm a vegetarian that only eats fish" is like saying "I'm a straight man who only has sex with black men so I'm not gay".
IF YOU EAT ANYTHING WITH EYES (except potatoes). You're an OMNI.
Seriously.

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Those *beeps* are really *Beeping* annoying..

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BOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

I actually stood up and cheered.

Finally someone who isn't a copypastanarian

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Animals should be eaten. If they weren't meant to be eaten then why do they taste good and give us essential nutrients? Believe in any god you want to, but in the end animals are on this planet to assist with the food chain. We are at the top of this chain, we cannot simply disrupt this chain by everyone giving up meat. I personally will never give up eating cows, I hate cows with a passion. Especially after years of living as a cow farmer. People seem to think that this movie enlightens them into a world where no one eats meat. You are wrong. This movie promotes the proper treatment of animals. No matter what, the masses will always eat them, just like we will always live in houses and drive cars. This part of our life will almost never change. It's not essentially wrong to eat meat, but it's best to know where it came from and ask questions and be aware of the process of killing these animals. And being conscience of how much of it we eat. OP has it right eating 3-4 meals with meat or fish in them a week. I'm on a similar pace(5-6 meals a week). Take a second to observe your daily intake, or your weekly intake. Some people eat meat 8-9 times a week, often always at fast food places. There is no need for this, why do we obsess ourselves with making everything quicker? Why am I ranting into a different topic....

The end of the world doesn't seem so bad now that you're here.

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Being vegan is the best thing I have ever done for my health. Please go to the local hospital and ask to see the protein deficiency wing. You won't find one. Then ask to see the cardiac wing- it will be populated due to animal fats and cholesterol. Please watch Forks Over Knives and learn about the health benefits of going vegan.

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Indeed, id also advise reading 'The China Study' which follows the same premise of Forks Over Knives but goes into a lot more detail.

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I think that's an excellent post on a topic that isn't mentioned enough. Can you name anyone you know, or anyone you know of, that has been treated for a protein deficiency? I can't. You'd have to be malnourished to reach that point.

A persistent myth is also that one cannot get a "complete protein" by eating only plants. This myth has been repeatedly proven wrong, even on a scientific peer reviewed level, and the original author of the concept has since rescinded her belief. Yet, the myth still continues widely across society.

A misconception also seems to be that "carbs" are bad, which doesn't really define what a carbohydrate is. For example, there's a huge difference between eating an apple, a sweet potato, or a salad, which are mostly carbohydrates, and candy, or doughnuts or chips of some short, which are mostly carbohydrate as well. When Atkins and his "carbs are bad" diet came along, all carbohydrates were collapsed into one category by many of his followers. This concept exists to this day throughout much of society, in a plethora of low "carb", high protein diets, foods, meals, and supplements.

There's another misconception that vegetables have little to no protein. In fact, several vegetables are considered high in protein by some nutritionists. Spinach, peas, and broccoli for example. And there's a fair amount of protein in green leafy lettuce, mushrooms, and even some in oranges, corn, and many more fruits and vegetables most people just think of as all carbohydrates (or don't bother to think of at all).

Fruits and vegetables are also loaded with way more nutrients on average than any meat or dairy product. These same nutrients that do things like prevent, even fight cancer. This is especially pertinent when study after study is showing that diets high in meat and animal products are primary contributors to cancer and heart disease. The two biggest killers in society.

The one necessary vitamin that is difficult for vegans to get through plants only is B-12, which can easily be attained with supplements (and takes a very, very long time to become deficient in. Years potentially).

It should be noted that while there is no "Forks Over Knives" diet, one would likely consider such a diet to be 98% vegan. There are people that adopt diets by physicians and nutritionists who follow this type of diet, who may eat some dairy and fish, without being PETA followers. James Cameraon (and his wife), former NFL star Tony Gonzalez, and former President Clinton for example.

http://www.forksoverknives.com/

"A whole-food, plant-based diet is centered on whole, unrefined, or minimally refined plants. It’s a diet based on fruits, vegetables, tubers, whole grains, and legumes; and it excludes or minimizes meat (including chicken and fish), dairy products, and eggs, as well as highly refined foods like bleached flour, refined sugar, and oil."

As a final note. I should state that I am not a member of any organization, nor a vegan. I just do my best to follow a plant-based diet. I firmly believe it benefits my health, and makes the planet a better place for all.

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I honestly can't believe anyone still gets sucked into the "can't get protein without meat" myth. A simple google image search for "vegetarian bodybuilder" instantly debunks it.

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