MovieChat Forums > The Ballad of Jack and Rose (2005) Discussion > NOT About Incest!!!

NOT About Incest!!!

posted 17 years ago by detkatebeckett
70 replies | jump to latest

I think that people who haven't seen this movie get the idea that this entire movie is one big incest-fest and that it's totally warped and gross.

That's so not how it is! I absolutely adore this movie...I think it was amazingly put together in the way that it was written, acted, directed, and scored.

It's a movie about the intense love that one person has for another. Because of the sheltered life that Jack and Rose lived they automatically became everything to one another. I think that Rose was so attatched that she just developed feelings that were, okay, completely inappropriate.

But I don't think that it was because she was trying to do anything wrong. She had just spent so long relying on him for everything...parenting, friendship, etc.

As for Jack, I feel that he knew that he was dying. And he LOVED Rose. More than anything. And in that one moment (You all know the moment I'm talking about) he got so caught up in the "Oh my god I'm leaving her soon"--y ness of the moment that he just let himself go completely, and when she kissed him he just felt so sad to be leaving, and so thankful that he had her (like he said in that sweet moment at the beginning of the movie, the "I've gotten to know you for so long" moment) that he let her kiss him. And let's all give him credit, when he snapped out of it he was immediately horrified.

I just felt like I should let people know that this movie is completely beautiful and touching, and I want people to know that this movie, once again, is NOT about INCEST!

xoxo

[–] pamdalove 17 years ago

yes i think your right about it not being just about incest, but it cetainly did give off that vibe with how close they were, in the begining u know the first view scenes of them up together watching the sky i thought they were lovers before i knew they were related. But i think rose was raised to only know her father, and probably was just confused and jealous of his attention to this new family he shows up with. Even till the end.

[–] khangd2003 16 years ago

Bingo!

I don't see this movie is about incest at all.
I was looking for someone to mention this point.
Jack, when kissed, understand the circumstance and back away.
I don't think the intention here is to show or exploit incestuous relationship b/t Jack and Rose.
I think this moive is a lovely little piece but i don't enjoy this genre that much.
Too much realism for me.

And for those of you who want a really good, disturbing, compelling, and mind boggling incest movie I recommend "The Quiet" 2005 with Elisha Cuthbert and Camilla Belle.

[–] keiracrazy 16 years ago

I don't understand how a person could say this movie isn't about incest. When I flipped to this movie on IFC, at first I believed that they were lovers. Without any background information about this movie, their behavior, their closeness, implied that their relationship was romantic. The images of flowers, sun, and nature, was romantic. When I realized that they were father and daughter, I thought the movie would be about incest.

Rose clearly had sexual feelings for her father. Many of her actions were driven by jealousy, and in my view, showed her sexual attraction to her father. After seeing Jack and Kathleen in their room, taking their clothes off and about to have sex, Rose felt like she immediately had to have sex as well, and pursued Rodney. And after she has sex with Thaddius, she tells her father that's she's getting back at him for Kathleen, in those words. She acted exactly like a scorned lover. When Jack and Rose are in the car and Rose tells him that he didn't have any courage and that he shouldn't be afraid of what other people think, what else could she be talking about other than their domestic, husband-wife-type relationship? Also, in the beginning when he runs his fingers across her lips, after he leaves, Rose touches her lips where he had touched her. That image is very sensual.

However, I don't think either of them are perverted or at fault. The feelings they have for each other developed almost by accident. Jack acted as a doting, loving father, but clearly in that environment, secluded from society, Rose never understood, or didn't care, what roles a daughter and father are expected to participate in and not participate in. Incest is not a taboo that's instilled in our psyche from birth - society enforces the belief that incest is wrong, and for good reason. Usually, if a baby is born between close relatives, the child will end up with mental or physical defects.

I don't see Jack as perverted or disturbed father. At the kiss at the end, it's Rose who leans in to kiss Jack. He is the one to pull away, clearly shaken at the culmination of all the feelings they've experienced. He apologizes to her and asks god to forgive him - I believe he's asking for forgiveness for having raised Rose the way he did. She ended up utterly dependent on him, in every way, so much so that she was thoroughly convinced that she would die when he did.

Even if you don't agree with anything I've said, how else can you interpret the kiss at the end? How many of you truly give your father five-second kisses on the mouth? If that kiss wasn't romantic, why else would Jack have been so ashamed and pulled away so forcefully?

My apologies if any of that wasn't clear. English isn't my first language. :)

[–] MTulliver 13 years ago

Incest as a taboo actually IS instilled in on as a genetic level.
It's not just a societal taboo.
We are attracted to pheromones from those NOT related to us, for example.

[–] blackassailant 12 years ago

I've heard similar information, MTulliver. From my understanding, they've done studies showing that girls who have close relationships with their biological fathers have a tendency towards delayed pubescence compared with those who are around unrelated men, suggesting a biological safeguard against incest.

Also, I've heard that apparently at least male instincts include blocks that suppress sexual urges towards girls whom one is actively involved with as she grows up, so if you raise a girl from pre-pubescence you're less likely to think of her in a sexual way.

[–] ldnfilmlover 12 years ago

Firstly I have to say that your english is perfect!

I agree with everything you've said. The only thing I would add is that when Rose says that he didn't have any courage and that he shouldn't be afraid of what other people think, I wondered if they were talking about a full-on incest relationship. E.g the dad only brought his girlfriend into the house to try and stop/prevent his sexual relationship with Rose, because it wasn't socially acceptable.

[–] krisluvkev 17 years ago

Thank you because I just watched this and I didn't see any incest. I saw a very close relationship but that was it.

[–] r_buro 8 years ago

You didn't see any interest? A very close relationship? Are you guys slow? Stupid? Not only were there deep undertones throughout the entire film but they SHOVED IT IN OUR FACE at the end. No doubt were they involve with each other, they were in love. They finally even began to make out at the end until Father realized what he was doing.

[–] queenofthelame13 17 years ago

I agree.
I think people are too obsessed with things like incest, so even the slightest hint at it makes people freak out. And then, afterwards, that's all they can think about concerning the movie. A friend of mine saw it after me, and that's really all she could say about the movie. "I mean, like, a dad kissing his daughter? Totally disgusting. He should be arrested." I just sighed.

[–] emiliakc 17 years ago

WAH finally! thank you!

-Mia

[–] iseepinkelefants 17 years ago

You do get the feeling of incest but I do agree that this was about way more than that. From a psychological standpoint the feelings she has for her father make sense.

I just finished watching it (after passsing it up many times on tv) and all I can say is, wow. It was a great film.

You can't come in here, this is my masturbatorium!

[–] Pfleiderer-1 17 years ago

I really liked this movie, but it WAS definitely about incest, other things too, but incest was one of the central themes.
The phrase "emotional incest" fits very well here. While it wasn't about a sexual relationship, there was definitely some inappropriate closeness. The father here has basically groomed his daughter to be his wife, and she isn't mature enough to relize the difference.

[–] iseepinkelefants 17 years ago

What I didn't understand was if she just became interested in her father because of the close relationship they had or if he groomed her to be that way. His reaction to the sheet was understandable he didn't care for the guy and he saw his daughter as pure and now she no longer was. I guess it's a normal reaction for a father. Judging by his behavior I would say that she developed those feelings because he seemed sort of startled by her actions (including the kissing scene).

You can't come in here, this is my masturbatorium!

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] cherubalways 15 years ago

It's not incest as long as it's a wacky eccentric raising his daughter alone on an island! My god, are you people nuts. Just because it's about emotional incest doesn't mean it's a bad film. The nature of their relationship IS exactly what would occur in a real life setting if a child was left alone with a parent unable to set healthy boundaries. That aspect of it doesn't seem abnormal to me. This is ancient my friends. Please don't be so enamored with the actors/setting/meaning that you fail to be objective. The father realized his mistake and tried to right it, mostly because he knew he'd be leaving her soon and was afraid she couldn't fend for herself. I'm not sure if he realized in the beginning just how misguided he had truly been? Incest is so uncomfortable for people they will deny it's existence. I'd be willing to bet most of the posters here know very little about the actual topic and have not had incestuous experiences. What occurred between these two characters was emotional incest. Don't be so afraid to examine that. It's not artsy fartsy cutsie. Google the movie and check out Rebecca Miller and Day Lewis on Charlie Rose. Day Lewis verifies the emotional incest this way: "the love between them begins to flow across dangerous border lines of what a parent and child should be..."

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] pf350980 17 years ago

I think you've got the right idea here. Unlike the other responses, I think incest (as a theme) was definitely important in the movie. It provided the force between Jack's inner conflict that audience witness throughout the movie.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] hairplay-1 17 years ago

I agree with most everything you're saying except the explanation of the kiss.
You're right to explain rose's attraction to jack the way you did. he was all she ever knew as a man, a father, and a friend (for the most part at least). She had a very strong relationship with him, and when she started to go through and past puberty, she got normal sexual feelings that any girls have. except most girls project that on to other men.
the thing is, Freud was kind of right with the whole electra complex.. girls often do have sexual attractions to their father, or father like figures. a lot of girls who find the right guy discover that the man they're with are actually very similar to their own fathers in certain ways. i don't know why this is exactly but there's plenty of evidence to back it up..
short story long, i think you're right on it with rose.

now for jack, i think you're letting your own emotions blind you a bit from what was actually being told in this story.. i don't think the character jack was supposed to be made out to be a bad person, but you have to understand that he was stuck on the commune alone with rose for a very long time as well. her mother apparently died at a pretty young age, leaving him to raise his young daughter.
he obviously wasn't with kathleen for very long because they didnt act all that close to one another. so most likely jack hadn't been with any woman other than his wife and his gf and rose.
rose grew up to be the perfect match for jack, because much like girls seek men who are like their fathers, i'm sure it can go vice versa.

now, our natural instincts tell us that this is nasty wrong horrible gross and stomach turning. this is for a reason, if this sensation did not exist there would be a lot of deformed and mentally handicapped people out there.

regardless, i believe the kiss scene was supposed to be passionate and sexual. jack snapped out of the passion very quickly after realizing, even though they were on the same page, he would be very wrong to stir those emotions in rose any further. i think he was probably more concerned with the fact that he would be making her attraction much stronger which would only hurt her more when he dies, rather than "omg this is incest! grossss"
Also, he probably saw that he was being unfair and a bad father to act on the emotions they were having for one another even though she consented. he knew that the only reason she was okay with her feelings is because she had never really had anyone show her that it was not okay to feel that way. it's very much a society impressed moral, and rose didn't get a lot of those. he felt horrible that he was the one responsible for bringing her up to throw those morals out the window (or, never to have had them in the first place).. even though he probably never anticipated anything like this to happen.
....

anyway, so after the kiss they got it on and it was awesome.
jk lolz

[–] Roy_Bland 16 years ago

Oh for goodness sake, of course it touches on incest. The relationship between them may not be consummated, but it is clearly deeply creepy and inappropriate. Now, the extent to which Miller understands that is in doubt. This ugly, weird mess of a film seems to have no notion what it is or wants to be.

[–] godess1 16 years ago

Oh for goodness sake, yourself, whoever you are. (I knew Bill Hayden, and you're not him.)

You guys are all looking at this film from the PC '07 era, not the late 60's, 70's or even 80's. You can't possibly understand how much we changed things, and how much we lost in the end.

It's more to do with loss and more unwanted, unintended change and betrayal of old dreams than INCEST.

You're of a different species, it's impossible to explain to you. But hell, you're about to inherit the earth. So what would be the point? Indeed a new chapter.

OH how I wish for a scorched earth event nowadays.

See how things have changed?

[–] Roy_Bland 16 years ago

Given that I am in my mid-forties, I am somewhat surprised to hear that I am to inherit the earth. You knew Bill Hayden? Did Toby Esterhase introduce you?

[–] Bladerunner 15 years ago

The abject sophistry that was put forth to try to convince people that this film isn't about incest was one of the most rank, ridiculous and sickening things I've ever read. Rose wants to have SEX with her FATHER, that is clear.

Trying to "explain" your twisted point-of-view isn't just difficult, it's damn well impossible, because it's pure nonsense.

There is nothing "pc" going on in the interpretation of this film. Rose complains to her father in the truck that he is a coward for not doing what he should be doing.

When he caresses her face, he puts his finger on her lips and in her mouth, and afterward — trembling — she touches her lips where he hand his fingers.

They kiss on the lips a couple of times. When Rose peeps in on her dad with his lover and sees them getting ready to have sex, she gets upset and goes downstairs to have sex with Rodney. Hello?!

Let me put it this way, if you think what is going on between Rose and her father isn't incestuous, well... god help you.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] Monknificent 8 years ago

For someone intelligent enough to use words like "abject sophistry", it seems very strange that you are not prepared (since the level of intelligence suggests you are able) to look beyond the - indeed, correctly identified - aspect of incest and see that there is more going on in the film.

"It's too late... Always has been, always will be...
Too late."

[–] MTulliver 13 years ago

"a lot of girls who find the right guy discover that the man they're with are actually very similar to their own fathers in certain ways."

That's because that's the male figure that they have grown up with...NOT because they are sexually attracted to their own fathers.
Freud was a bit of a quack.

[–] Monknificent 8 years ago

Yep, t's because it's what they grow up knowing - the familiar feels comfortable, therefore good to us, it's pretty simple, really.
So if your father was funny, you'll be attracted to funny guys, if your father was serious and studious, you'll be attracted to similar men, and so on. It will also be true of physical characteristics to a certain extent.

Conversely, if your parents were people you hated, you will be running away from other people exhibiting their traits.

"It's too late... Always has been, always will be...
Too late."

[–] Dickensismyhomeboy 16 years ago

I know it seems gross, but the film definitely has a tone of incest about it, and I wouldn't really consider it an undertone. Jack and Rose lived out in the middle of nowhere- by themselves... Rose filled the role of Jack's partner in life. Not sexually of course, but as far as living together they really did act in ways that a married couple would. Once he started treating her like a partner in life (a "wife," in a sense) it was only a matter of time before the feelings followed. After all, we're constantly told to do things we don't want to and the feelings will follow (like treating others the way we would want to be treated. Something like that).

Of course these feelings (however great or slight they may have been) frightened him. He brought in "the world" (Kathy) to prevent himself from taking it to the physical level. He may have seen his daughter developing these feelings as well. After all, she was a teenage girl with hormones and he was the only male around. It scared him and he thought that by bringing a woman in to fill his sexual needs, it would fix the problem.

The "forgive me" at the end of the movie could be taken multiple ways. He could have been asking for her forgiveness for bringing Kathy in, thus destroying their last days together. He could have been asking forgiveness for destroying her psychologically. He could have been asking forgiveness for being so weak as a father to allow himself to foster these kinds of feelings towards her. It could have been all of these things at once. I loved that part because it really allows you to interpret it many different ways. or all of these ways at once.

Incest creeps me out, but I really liked this movie as a psychological subject. Sorta like Freud would say(I know a lot of his ideas were strange, but some of them do have their merits): the subconscious of these characters got the best of them. I'm sure Jack didn't intend to see his daughter in that sort of light, but over time it was able to develop in his subconscious.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] dertel 16 years ago

and if it was...theyre not really father and daughter

XXIV
now thats what i call treason

[–] Bladerunner 15 years ago

Haha! How absurd. Yes, they are father and daughter. Yes. There is a theme of incest throughout the film. Live with it and quit trying to pretend what is there, isn't there.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

[–] moonflower22 16 years ago

Well, maybe I went in the wrong direction with this, but here goes.....
I watched this movie and see it as a mildy structured adaptation of Shakespeare's "The Tempest", and incest, such as it is, is a central theme. Now, let's all see how many times we can say incest........

[–] lauraly 16 years ago

When a daughter and a father are involved sexually, is the very definition of incest. The fact that the father raised her in such an isolated environment promoted that. That was one of the central themes of the movie.