A tip isn't optional - Waiting... (2005) Discussion

[–] Jerique 14 years ago

I don't believe tipping is mandatory. However, I always tip. I read a post saying that someone on the thread doesn't tip when it comes to buffets. I do.

I don't mind giving $4 tip on a $20 bill. The only thing I won't do is pay $40 for a bill that's split between like 7 people. I pay for my own stuff.

I've always tipped 15% at least. I recently went to my friend's birthday party at a place I'd never been. I ordered a chicken salad and it took the longest to get. We had a group of 12 people. The other orders were turkey, steak, ribs, and more items on their menu that should've taken longer than my salad. My bill was $14.64 and I paid $17.50 giving a 19.5% tip.

I know that waiters in my city make $6.50 an hour relying on tips to really make their income. But, I'm also a very courteous person.

The Narrator: This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time.

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[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

What city do you live in, if you don't mind saying?

--
Be prepared for the coming Zombocalypse!
3/3/14

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[–] Jerique 14 years ago

Windsor, ON (CANADA).

The Narrator: This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time.

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[–] its_a_Kristina_thing 14 years ago

If the solution were as easy as "just getting another job," then there would hardly be any waiters out there. There are all kinds of socio- economic reasons a person maybe waiting tables. Thinking that the solution is that easy, and that you can just "find somewhere else to work" is ignorant.

The reason you should tip is this. A server is paid $3-4 an hour, plus tips. Tips are not something extra that come on top of our paycheck, they are a part of our paycheck, which a lot of customers don't realize. So when you don't tip your waiter, you are taking money out of their paycheck.

Technically yes, tipping is optional, and not tipping is legal. That doesn't make not tipping the right thing to do.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ekillr 14 years ago

Again, it isn't my fault that you can't get a better job, it's yours. If you don't like it, get out of the service industry, or join Sieu and get a union job.

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[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

"Windsor, ON (CANADA)"

So I suppose Canada requires that waiters/waitresses are paid minimum wage?

--
Be prepared for the coming Zombocalypse!
3/3/14

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[–] Jerique 14 years ago

I don't think so, seeing as how minimum wage here is $10, going up to $10.50 in January.

"This ship simply doesn't have the capability to dial Earth." -Rush (SG.U)

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[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

Wow. In the States our Federal minimum wage is $7.25, and the highest in the country is $9.92 (in Santa Fe). A waiter is lucky to get more than $3/hour.

--
Be prepared for the coming Zombocalypse!
3/3/14

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[–] FeloniousPhunk 14 years ago

According to this report, tipping really isn't optional:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html?yhp=1

The end of the article is right, though. It'll never hold up in court.

When it comes to tipping, I rarely have a huge tab, so I just give $5 regardless of what the bill is. If it's a big tab, I'll give more, roughly based on tipping 20%. I used to work pizza delivery and even though I got paid the full minimum wage at the time, the tips are what made the job worth it. So I know what it's like.

"If I'm not gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself."- Busta Rhymes

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] sporkyou 14 years ago

Agreed. you can tell a lot about people by how they treat waitstaff or store clerks. People who are bad tippers or non tippers are quite often true low lifes.

And it's funny, a lot of times rich people tip worse than blue collar people, because they just don't care or they don't know how hard it is.

A waitperson could throw food at me and I'd still leave 10 percent. I mean, even if they do a poor job, they still do a job that they should get paid for. Getting 2.63 an hour is not acceptable. While we are on the topic people, 10% is not a tip for reasonable service, it's cheap! 15 to 20% is acceptable. I rarely ever leave less than 20%.

Now that being said, tips ARE optional for some jobs. The people who bring your food to the special drive-up spots outside can actually get like $10/hr. While it's not great, it does not mean their job is dependent on tips. 1 or 2 bucks should suffice. Tipping is also optional for coffee shop and sub shop counter workers. They get paid more than waitress pay. I do sometimes get annoyed that these workers expect tips for pouring coffee or even just picking up a pizza and ringing it in. But, I do throw them a couple bucks on occasion. They aren't exactly making a liveable wage.

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[–] Bella_Vita 14 years ago

this is why America is deteriorating in its values and economic status. you people will spend hundreds even thousands of dollars on bags, watches, luxury items, but GOD FORBID you tip or even pay a decent amount for a plane ticket.

you are willing to screw over the little guy so you can get the best deal, and that my friend means there's a special place in hell for people like you.

Signed,
someone who's entering law school with the intention of not being like you.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nomar77 14 years ago

I agree with you for the most part, but what does plane tickets have to do with this?

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[–] ekillr 14 years ago

This is why America is deteriorating in it's values and economic status. I won't spend money on designer labels, own a three dollar watch, and work long hard hours for every penny I earn, so when I choose not to subsidize someone else's payroll so they can screw their employees, I get called out on MORAL issues by someone who's going to be a LAWYER. You want to talk about a special place in hell, Ally McBeal? Satan's got an eight dicked walrus waiting for you, too right.

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[–] Captain_Hindsight 14 years ago

Nobody tips the fast food jockeys and they work for the same minimum wages as servers at some fancy restaurant. If you like your employees so much, here's a thought, pay them more yourself and stop leeching off other people who work for their money as well. Then again, that would mean you couldn't drive around in a solid gold hummer and eat magic lobsters that make your farts smell like fresh baked cookies, you spoiled prick.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

Fast food restaurant employees make at least minimum wage, because they don't get tips. Servers make much less than minimum wage, and they pay taxes on tips, whether they get any or not. As I and others have stated before, if the wages of servers were increased, the price of your food would go up, so you'd still be paying more.

And I don't drive a solid gold Hummer. I drive a used Hundai Elantra, and I usually eat Hamburger Helper for dinner. How much money do you think restaurant managers make?

--
Be prepared for the coming Zombocalypse!
3/3/14

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

I definately made more than $10/hr. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't poor, but I wasn't living in luxury, either, as the poster above you suggested (gold hummer, magic lobster dinner, etc.).

--
Be prepared for the coming Zombocalypse!
3/3/14

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[–] ThatSoapsALittleHard 14 years ago

Of course tipping is not mandatory, but it really comes down to what kind of person you are. If you're a worthless piece of *beep* then you will not think there's anything wrong with not tipping for average to good service. If you're a decent person, you will leave a tip. It helps to understand if you work in the restaurant business.

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[–] FeloniousPhunk 14 years ago

""When it comes to tipping, I rarely have a huge tab, so I just give $5 regardless of what the bill is. If it's a big tab, I'll give more, roughly based on tipping 20%. I used to work pizza delivery and even though I got paid the full minimum wage at the time, the tips are what made the job worth it. So I know what it's like."

I always say tipping is optional but if i had the money to order a pizza, i can pay the pizza delivery guys. they seem....just seem to actually like their job, etc."

Pizza delivery guys seem to like their job because they're generally stoned. :-p I forget who did it, but some comedian did a sketch about the life cycle of a pizza and how everyone one involved, from creation to consumption, was blazed out of their minds.

"If I'm not gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself."- Busta Rhymes

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[–] sasha-the-brit 14 years ago

Tips are optional. That being said, if you do not tip at a restaurant, expect really crappy service the next time you go in there. Waitstaff talk to each other (I've been a waitress for about a year) and they WILL make sure that you don't have a good experience if you stiff them. Waitstaff make below minimum wage - they rely on tips to pay their rent, feed their faces and, if they're lucky, get some form of health insurance. They work their asses off and deal with so much customer angst, all for about $3 an hour. Tips are not just you being nice - it's acknowledging your waiter/ress as a person with needs similar to your own.

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[–] louderthandrew 14 years ago

Legally, tipping is optional. Morally, not so much. I read the story about the Bethlehem pub that got the police involved when the parties involved refused to tip - finally, an establishment that gets it! I personally think this should be the norm. And please, no whining about how it's not your fault that waitstaff doesn't get a proper hourly wage, or how I should get a different job if I don't like non-tippers - the fact remains that you're the one trying to play by different rules than the established norm, and therefore should not be pandered to. My choice of job is not cause for your scorn.

It's a point that's been beaten into the ground by many others that share my position, but if you are indignant about tipping customs, your patronage is probably better suited to a place where tipping is not standard. Of course, you forfeit table service and being waited on hand and foot that way - but that's the tradeoff. That's what you forfeit for refusing to play by the rules.

In my restaurant, I'm responsible for bar guests, my sizeable section of bar-area tables, service bar, and to-go orders. You get exemplary service the first time - but if you do not tip appropriately, your satisfaction is not of any concern to me the next time I see you. You will get what you pay for - but since you refused to pay for service, your next visit will be severely lacking in that department. If you don't tip me for your drinks, next time my bar is full, you're automatically last in line. If you don't tip me for your to-go order, I really don't care how satisfied you were with your meal, or if you get all the way home and find that you are without the proper condiments. No, I'm not going to spit in your coffee, or rub your steak on my taint. Yes, I will do my best to ensure that I'm not saddled with your lousy patronage any longer.

I have no sympathy for those who want the restaurant experience without paying restaurant money for it. I enjoy eating out too, and I'm always HAPPY to be able to compensate my server or bartender for services rendered.

As a final note, as I do take tables as well as the other aspects of my job, I am required to tip out the hosts. It amounts to 1.5% of my sales - in other words, if you spend $100, I owe $1.50 of that right off the bat. In this way, if you do not tip, I am immediately out of $1.50, which you have effectively stolen from me, as it comes out of the remainder of my tips. May not seem like much, but I wouldn't be in the field if I couldn't use every buck I can get. Tip theft should be prosecutable by law. That's all there is to it.

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[–] backinrehab 14 years ago

"In the States our Federal minimum wage is $7.25, and the highest in the country is $9.92 (in Santa Fe). A waiter is lucky to get more than $3/hour."

If this is the case then the waiter has a right to complain and demand more money as it is a LEGAL requirement to pay all staff at least minimum wage, so if they dont then they only have themselves to blame!

What about other professions that get minimum wage but dont get tips? I've worked as a waiter and in other customer service jobs and dint expect tips as i was doing a job i was paid to do (but maybe that's because i dont live in a tipping culture) so does that mean everyone who didnt give me a tip as we dont place a huge cultural thing on it going to hell? Somehow i doubt it. I still work in customer service on minimum wage but dont get tips for helping people as my job doesnt expect people to give tips for good service, why is that any different?

I tip if i get good service but not just because someone tells me i have to!

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[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

I should clarify that I'm not going to condone or comdemn tipping customs outside of the United States, because I'm not familiar with them. If your servers are paid a living wage, and people in your country don't tip as a rule, that's fine. There are a few places in the States where that's also the custom. I'm only condemning the refusal to tip in places where the tip is the primary source of income for the server, which is most of the US.

The minimum wage law in America doesn't apply to people who make the majority of their living on tips. It's not a bad job, but it's frustrating when some inconsiderate bastard doesn't pay for the service he just enjoyed.

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[–] aeternus_proeliator 14 years ago

"Tip or well make sure your service is sh!tty next time"?

Oh thats just brilliant logic right there. Tip at least 15% for a basic, plain service that isn't even 15% of the dining experience or "well make sure your service is crappy"?

Yeah, kiiinda not building a great case there, *beep*

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[–] cooltiger_2005 13 years ago

i live in NC and for tax purposes, tips are expected.
"Employers are permitted to take a credit, for a certain amount of tips earned by their employees, toward the employers’ payment of the minimum wage."

so when minimum wage increased here? they lowered the cash wage of the servers and increased the "tipping credit" (aka what you are expected to make in tips)
not to mention that the $2.13 per hour on the paycheck is taxed as the wage plus all charged tips. servers rarely ever see any paycheck at all, and still owe money to the government on april 15th.

in addition, they have to tip out bartenders, QA's, hosts, and busboys based on the amount in sales, even if they don't get a tip from you. so if you don't tip, the server has paid money to wait on you.

for those of you who think servers are just uneducated druggies, that is a horrible stereotype. my friend is a server and goes to one of the top public universities in the country. she is extremely smart and works her a$$ off just to make it by. and she is not spending her money on drugs, she has to pay for her education. and universities are not cheap.

in my opinion, if you can't afford to tip, then don't go out to eat, because you are costing other people their money and time. if you don't care about other people, then you could possibly have anti-social personality disorder and i urge you to see a psychaitrist immediately.

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[–] !!!deleted!!! (4524359) 14 years ago

Sure it's optional, if the waiter is a complete retard and rude on top of it he should be happy I don't punch him in the face.

Oh btw I feel sorry for those serving tables in USA if they rely on tip for income, weird they allow *beep* conditions like that, it would never fly here.

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[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

Just curious, where are you from?

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[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

For those posters giving their heart-bleeding stories about tipping, please give it up!!

NO-ONE FORCES WAITERS TO DO THAT JOB. If you're not happy with the salary/hourly rate that is paid, then get a different job!!

FYI, I have worked as a waiter, barman and retailer in my time - and I have NEVER "expected" a tip. If you want extra over and above your wage, you give good service and earn it. But never expect it! Customers pay higher prices in a restaurant than a supermarket so it is paid and served for them. Anything over and above them.

I tip anything up to 25-30% if I receive outstanding service. If I receive just ok service, then you are performing the minimum expected of your job, so why should I give you more money?

I bust my a%%e every day in my job working approx 70-80hrs a week, and don't expect extra. Why should waiters?

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[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

Because it isn't extra money. The restaurant expects servers to get tips - that's why they only pay them $3/hr. The government expects them to get tips - that's why the minimum wage law doesn't apply to them. So why shouldn't servers expect a tip, assuming they do their job? Is it unusual to expect to be compensated for your work?

If you're fine making three bucks an hour, and don't expect a tip, that's fine, although I don't know how you'd be able to afford a roof over your head with that kind of pay. If you're in an area where servers must be paid minimum wage or over, then while I would still tip as a matter of course, I'm not as adamant that others do the same.

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[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

But that is it - a tip should not be EXPECTED. There are unfortunately laws that reduce some wages if certain level of tips are received per month.

However there is NO LAW that dictates any customer HAS to give a tip.

People are compensated for doing their job - its called wages. If you put yourself in a job that has the risk of less money (ie tips are not legally mandatory), then it is your problem - find a job with a more secure wage.

There are so many low paid jobs that don't receive tips - I don't hear them complaining.

If these waiters perform excellent service, then they deserve a tip. Just the basic service is what they get paid for in wages.

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[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

Of course it's not legally required to leave a tip, but if a server doesn't make a living wage (which is the case in most of the US), then tips, logically, should be expected. Without them, the server wouldn't be able to pay rent, or buy food. At $3 per hour, working 70 hours a week, a person would make $840 in a 28 day period, before taxes. That's less than one month's rent in many parts of the country. If tips weren't expected, it would be illegal to pay such low wages.

My argument is that if a restaurant patron receives adequate service, it is a moral obligation to see that the server is appropriately compensated for his or her work.

Obviously, you know going into waiting tables that you'll have to deal with people who don't tip. This isn't a "poor me" tirade (I haven't waited tables in years). I'm just saying that for servers, a tip isn't extra pocket money to augment their living, it is their living.

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[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

The key word you used there was "adequate".

They get paid a wage to deliver "adequate" service - if they want a tip, they need to give "good" service as a minimum.

Complaining that they only receive $3/hr is futile - no one is forcing them to take a job that for some reason is reliant upon money that people aren't oblige to give.

If they want a higher wage guaranteed, then get a different job.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

Uh yeah... their job description will indicate a certain standard of performance in order for them to justify even being there! If you are not delivering at least "adequate" performance, you don't even deserve your wage/job and will be fired!

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

If the manager is doing their job correctly, poor performance should be dealt with which would lead to them being fired if they continue.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

I'm not sure what the termination of incompetent employees has to do with fair wages or tipping. I think everyone agrees that if you don't do your job, you won't (or shouldn't) have it for long.

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[–] ekillr 14 years ago

You keep saying the same things over and over, but your ridiculous position does not get any less ridiculous with repetition. If you think that your servers aren't getting paid enough, pay your servers better. Stop expecting me to subsidize your payroll, stop trying to lay a moral onus on me to do it.

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[–] Samuraibro 8 years ago

I can use the exact same "repetition" argument against you.

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[–] louderthandrew 14 years ago

scousechrisj:

"NO-ONE FORCES WAITERS TO DO THAT JOB. If you're not happy with the salary/hourly rate that is paid, then get a different job!!"

There are many benefits to entering a tipped industry. Same-day cash if needed, for one; I, for one, am happy to be in an industry where the amount of money I make is directly related to my job performance.

Point being one of two things:
1. No one will ever be in a tipped service in the US because they're happy with their hourly wage. This is not what entices folks to do this.
2. It is not your place to judge others for their job decisions. IF you yourself are a diner, you play by the rules. You entered the contract, you pay up. Otherwise, you're simply not worth the time.

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[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

louderthandrew, what "rules" are you talking about here? It is not law to tip - if I get very good service, I will tip generaously.

There is NO CONTRACT - so if someone is going though the motions, they get no tip. They get wages to go through the motions - tips for good service.

"I wouldn't be worth the time?" If diners like me didn't go to restaurants, you wouldn't have ANY JOB or ANY MONEY in the first place.

Tips are service costs - therefore good service has to be a pre-requisite.

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[–] louderthandrew 14 years ago

You're right, it isn't law to tip. But it's still expected of you, because of your willingness to participate in the dining culture. To reneg on this aspect of it is, first of all, theft, and second of all, simply unconscionable.

If you're "going through the motions", a tip of some sort is earned. Now, I agree - there's no reason to go above and beyond monetarily for such service. But to simply refuse to pay them for their services means that you were given something that you didn't want to pay for. If you don't want to pay for services rendered, you're perfectly welcome to swing by a drive-thru, or prepare your own food.

And yes, you wouldn't be worth the time. In my restaurant, I take care of the bar, service bar, a few bar area tables, and to go orders. I'm typically busy, and if you are taking up time that I could be spending on people who will compensate me for my efforts but refusing to pay me for it, I honestly don't care about providing a good experience for you next time. My "base pay" doesn't take care of me, my tips do.

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[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

Definition of a tip:

Optional payment given in addition to a required payment, usually to express appreciation for excellent service; here also called gratuity.

Note the word "excellent"!

You really don't get it. Tips are not a legal requirement (which you agree with) - therefore it is not theft if one is not given. If someone is "going through the motions", the only tip that is deserved is a tip of finding alternative employment.

Listing your responsibilities means nothing - I think you will find that there are so many minimum wage roles with equal or more responsibilities that do not receive tips. Being busy is expected in ALL jobs, so listing these is completely irrelevant - you knew the responsibilities and your base rate when you took on the job.

You do realise that there are so many restaurants to choose from these days, with similar foods. What differentiates them? The service - so if good service is not given, not only are tips not deserved, but these restaurants are likely to go out of business.

So if you want your tip (and your place of employment to stay open), give good or excellent service - simple.

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[–] louderthandrew 14 years ago

USUALLY given for excellent service. But then, of course, we get into how one defines excellent - I've given terrific service to people who don't compensate me for it, and been commended on days that I don't feel I've brought my A-game. It's all subjective, so you can't claim that a tip hinges on such a flexible term.

I DO get it, actually. See, foregoing a tip is theft in several ways. There's the government taxation on the wages that you are expected to make. There's the obvious theft of service. And finally, there's the fact that in many restaurants, servers are expected to tip other employees based on their tables. So if a server has a table with a $100 check that doesn't tip, and they're still expected to give a percentage of their total sales to, say, the bartender, or the host, they could be out as much as five bucks. Essentially, when one doesn't tip, the server PAYS to wait on you. This, again, constitutes theft, no matter how you cut it.

The only reason I listed my responsibilities was to demonstrate to you that I need to be able to prioritize and budget my time. If you're not compensating me, you're not in the budget. Sorry. Meanwhile, your minimum wage comment is moot because we're not talking about jobs that pay minimum wage. Minimum wage for tipped employees is completely different than standard minimum wage. When you're knowingly entering an establishment where tips are the source of income, it is unconscionable to deny anybody their pay.

What it comes down to is this: my service is uniformly excellent. I may live a modest life, but I'm good at what I do, and the majority of people compensate me just fine for it. But if I slip up, or circumstances beyond my control enter the picture, do I not deserve a wage? If you don't agree with the system - which, like it or not, IS exactly how I've laid it out - then simply don't be a part of it.

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[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

Yes the concept of excellent service is subjective - but then so are tips!

You obviously don't get it - I pay a premium price for food to be cooked and served to me. If the service exceeds my expectations, I will leave a tip. If you want more guaranteed money, find a new career that isn't dependant upon your performance.

You won't have to pay anyone, if you give good service. That is the whole argument. If you give someone good service and then they don't leave a tip, then I disagree with that.

What circumstances beyond your control affect your wages? How about people who rely on overtime to make a living and it suddenly gets cut - who helps them out?

The system is an "optional" system - so I believe the phrase should be if YOU don't agree with it, don't be a part of it. If you're going to be a part of it, then give consistently good service to be deserved of your tips.

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[–] louderthandrew 14 years ago

Yes, you pay a premium price for food to be cooked for you. You do NOT pay that price for it to be served - that is what a tip is for. You pay the menu price for the food to be prepared for you, and the tip for the service. It is not a "gift" as some people would have you believe. It is you paying the server, bartender, et al, for their services.

Circumstances beyond your control that affect your wage could be things like unexpected volume, or poor kitchen performance, just to name a few. A couple in Pennsylvania got arrested for not paying a mandatory gratuity on parties of 6 or more, which they justified by saying that the busy server simply didn't refill their drinks and that the service was awful (included in this rundown of the service was the time their food took to arrive). Is there an excuse for sheer laziness? No, there is not. But they admitted that the restaurant was unusually busy - while I may be at your beck and call normally, when there's an unexpected surge of volume, things may take me a couple of minutes longer. Hell, my restaurant offered free food for vets on Veteran's Day last year - perhaps someone should have seen it coming, but no one was prepared for the sheer amount of people this brought in. I had 20 full bar stools and a packed-tight 9-table bar area (tables which hold up to 6), so, in that situation, my service was bound to be a little less on-the-nose than it would be on an average night. Kitchen snafus - if your restaurant experience was a little less than it could have been because of something that happened when it left my hands, should I be paid less for it? There's a lot to take into consideration here.

To address your last point: I DO agree with the system. This is why I'm a part of it. I'm not the one here who takes issue with it - you seem to be.

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[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

You can offer all of the excuses you like.

The easy way to look at it is - are tips (which are defined as OPTIONAL gratuities) legally binding?

No they are not - therefore they are dependent upon customer satisfaction. If the customer isn't satisfied, then the role has not been performed to standard or expectations have not been managed.

You can throw up high volumes, public holidays etc. People in retail also have to deal with such volumes and such variances related to holidays. Do they receive tips? No.

You mention a restaurant with "mandatory" gratuities. With this scenario, the customer should know this at the start and therefore I agree a tip is expected. for restaurant/party sizes that do not advertise "mandatory" tips, then service is the deciding factor. If this service should be compromised, but timely apologies and reasons are given and accepted by the customer, then a tip could still be deserved. If the food is poor, then the waiter needs to take that up with the chef - it is not the customer's problem.

Until tips become a legal requirement, you have NO argument against the fact that they are dependent upon service. If poor service is delivered, don't expect a tip.

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[–] louderthandrew 14 years ago

Your continuous comments about other jobs in which tips are not expected does not hold water, for the simple, oft-pointed-out fact that, since they do not worked in what is deemed a "tipped industry", they actually recieve a minimum-wage base pay. I'm not sure what part of that you're not understanding.

I mean, you can try applying my variances beyond a server's control to other industries, but where does that get you? All it does is reinforce the necessity of tipping - they lose nothing from you not tipping because it is not considered a tipped position. So, regardless of volume (unless they are paid a commission), these people will still get paid their regular rate of pay.

"Until tips become a legal requirement, you have NO argument against the fact that they are dependent upon service. If poor service is delivered, don't expect a tip. "

Well, I do have the argument that you are incorrect. Which, factually speaking, is quite true. Thanks for playing, though.

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[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

Please illustrate that I am incorrect. Where is the law that states all waiter service requires a tip to be paid?

Until you provide evidence of that law, I am indeed correct.

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[–] louderthandrew 14 years ago

The argument isn't whether or not a person is legally required to leave a tip, since I've already admitted that this is not the case. The question was whether or not it is morally optional, which, I've demonstrated, it is not.

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[–] scousechrisj 14 years ago

You haven't demonstrated anything.

The definition of a tip/gratuity is STILL based upon service. Therefore, it is perfectly morally justified to withold a tip if you receive poor service.

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[–] Micasso-1 14 years ago

I agree with the OP. But I'd also just like to add/clarify a lot of restaurants actually pay their servers (and delivery drivers) less than minimum wage and it's legal to because the gov't and corporation/franchise/owner expects tip income to the server. Point is, servers do rely on tips as their income. And in many restaurants, they can generate more income than even managers, which is why serving isn't really a bad job (it just depends where you are working really, and how good you are).

However, yes, tipping is optional IMO. Personally even if the waitress was bad I still always leave at least 15% because I give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they had a bad day, maybe somethings not going right in the restaurant (short staffed, or something). Now some would argue, Hey, that's not my problem, I'm a customer, I expect to be serviced thoroughly. And that's a good point, but every job has customers, and most people work lol, and we all have customers, whether we see them or not lol, my point is that remember, most likely you're not always at your best either every day at your job sometimes either :)

Last thing I wanted to add really quick is there's a lot of things going on at once in a restaurant, and I want people to remember there's a fine line between bad service, and an unhappy meal or experience. And a lot of times customers tip based on all three reasons when you should really only tip ON the service ITSELF. If you have a bad meal, or even experience in general (but not necessarily the waiter/waitress), remember they didn't cook your meal. And it's not their fault. And you should always voice your reasons (not in a mean way) if there is a problem.

I say that b/c think of the movie with the bitch in the beginning who got a medium rare steak instead of medium and how nasty she was lol.

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[–] t_berka 11 years ago

You've come off as an entitled prick to be honest. I don't think you've demonstrated much except for an ability to whine.

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[–] louderthandrew 11 years ago

"You've come off as an entitled prick to be honest. I don't think you've demonstrated much except for an ability to whine."

Eh, if that's the price of being correct, so be it.

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[–] t_berka 11 years ago

Except you haven't been correct. You've come off like a clown. Just do the job, you'll get compensated. Spend less time crying and more time doing the job correctly and it'll work out fine.

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[–] louderthandrew 11 years ago

"Except you haven't been correct. You've come off like a clown. Just do the job, you'll get compensated. Spend less time crying and more time doing the job correctly and it'll work out fine."

Did a bit of a rewind on this conversation in the wake of your new comments. As I'm a.) no longer in the industry and b.) reading responses to three-year-old posts, you'll understand if I required a bit of a refresher.

And yet, you say I haven't been correct, even though a review of my posts suggests that I was. (And am, actually - I may not be working in that particular field anymore, but that doesn't mean my opinions have changed.) I'm curious as to what you could have possibly taken issue with. Enlighten me.

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[–] kpddukpoki 11 years ago

"You can offer all of the excuses you like."

actually scouse.. the only person here with an excuse is you!

it went like this:

Person A: ARGUMENT 1 (perfectly fine refute)
Person B (you): ARGUMENT 2 (perfectly fine refute)
Person A: ARGUMENT 3 (perfectly fine refute)
Person B (you): Bah person A you are full of excuses. (gave up/a poor excuse of an excuse)

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[–] aeternus_proeliator 14 years ago

No moron. That $3+ you earn an hour? I pay that in the meal. Just as I pay the electricity, the water and the gas. As well as your employers salary.

Every meal is a portion of your salary. In fact for most large meals a person would have LITERALLY paid your entire hours wage for serving them.

They HAVE paid for their table service, you ignorant little bitch. So nice fallacy you have there.

In fact, seeing as you are not serving them for the entire hour...it's safe to say they pay a sh!tload MORE of your pay percentage wise than you spent serving.

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[–] Samuraibro 8 years ago

Uh, no.

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[–] aeternus_proeliator 14 years ago

Perhaps you should come back to reality where we already paid for the table service.

As your "A-game" is not bringing a steak to the table with a big smile, im not stealing anything by paying you extra for service you are required to do for your job and I already pay for in your meal.

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[–] ekillr 14 years ago

Usually given for excellent means that the tip is often given for excellent service, not that the service the tip is given for is usually excellent.

And NO YOU REALLY DON'T GET IT, apparently, All of that hoo-ha you listed about taxes on expected wages and tips to kitchen or bar staff is between you and your ACTUAL employer, the restaurant. If YOU enterered an actual REAL WORLD contract with the restaurant that requires you to pay those tips (and we're not talking PJ Shenaniganz or Tchotchkies here, these kinds of restaurants are $20 a plate and up), you knew when you did it that you were going to have to do that, but you took the gamble for the tips these restaurants bring. The taxes paid on expected wages are refunded on your tax return if you don't meet them, the same way my with holding is refunded to me. You're being disingenuous with your replies, figuring that we don't actually know anything about the restaurant business.

What it comes down to is this: You get paid to provide the service that the restaurant you work for provides to it's customers. If your service is not exceptional, and you don't get a tip, you still get your wage, from YOUR EMPLOYER. If you don't agree with the system, which is EXACTLY how I'VE laid it out, then don't be a part of it- go get another job.

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[–] aeternus_proeliator 14 years ago

If I go to a restaurant, I pay for my table service in the cost of the meal and/or drinks. I pay for the food (a portion of the bulk buy, which evens out as more order that meal), I pay for emenitites (the electricity, gas, water), I pay for business costs (business lease or tax costs) and guess what...

I PAY FOR YOUR WAGES.

When I pay for my meal, I have already paid for my table service you so ignorantly claim I am "getting for free" by not tipping.

In fact, in relation to most meals, I literally paid your wage for an hour in the meal cost. Why exactly am I tipping EXTRA for table service (which is almost always, if not always, plain service) when that service doesn't even amount to remotely 15% of the dining service I recieved.

Hell, cooks make up 85% of my meal, not you.

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[–] ekillr 14 years ago

"Dining Culture"? What kind of asinine *beep* is that? You are retarded. No wonder you can't get a better job.

No matter what you say, not tipping is not theft. Just because you make up nonsensical contracts about participating in a mythical dining culture doesn't make it so. Apparently, being in a low paying position has driven you insane enough to believe that you are actually adding anything to my dining experience by fetching me my iced tea. Remember, chum, you entered into an actual, real world contract to provide the service that the restaurant you work for (not, incidentally, YOUR restaurant) sells to it's customers. That includes seating, having food prepared, and having food and beverages served. If I was to expect less than that, I would PAY less than that at another establishment. Just because your industry is continually succeding to screw you is not my fault, and if you give me less than the minimum service because I didn't tip you "last time", I'll complain to your manager and to your corporate management if you have any.

P.S. get over yourself, you uppity ass.

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[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bgsmith33 14 years ago

Skinny,

Thank you for that carefully reasoned and eloquently worded response. You are truly a philosopher for the ages. You have truly contributed a great deal to this discussion and will no doubt compel many people to agree with you, thanks in no small part to your foolproof logic. In fact I even find myself inclined to agree with you. Your intellect has left me nothing short of bedazzled. From this moment forth, I wish only to bask in your glow, to feel the warmth of your presence. I pledge to you my undying allegiance. I would gladly follow you into the very maw of the Abyss, to simply aid you in your noble crusade against injustice, ignorance, and whiny idiots.

It is best I don't say more. I shall give you time to decide how I can best assist you. Perhaps I could fix your broken caps lock key? My one and only desire is to serve you, Mister Mephistopheles.

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[–] Tillius 14 years ago

Well played.

I was wondering when somebody was going to bring up the point to Chris(?) that his minimum wage argument is invalid because servers are typically paid much less than minimum wage. In Texas, where I live, most servers make $2.13 an hour. Minimum wage in Texas is $7.25, but I, as a server, am making $2.13 every hour(which is taxed) plus tips(which are also taxed).

To Chris, I am not arguing that it is okay to withhold a tip if the server gives you poor service. I would not get upset at my place of employment if I did not receive a tip when I did not feel that my service was adequate, and if I did then sure, that was great, but not to be expected. Most people will not argue that. But when I had a customer who would come in every Saturday night asking for my station and I could have his drinks ready and his order put in by the time he sat down, only to leave me three dollars(if I was lucky) was atrocious.

And people can ramble on and on if they please about waiters going on to get a better job if they don't like the wages. So what do you say about people like me and countless others who are paying our own ways through school so that we can one day obtain these better jobs? Try to justify your lack of tips all you want. Maybe if you had one of these better jobs you could get your cheap ass off your pedestal and thrown down even a couple extra dollars.

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[–] jordyno 14 years ago

I never ever ever don't tip.
If I have sh*tty service, then I tip a penny or so. So they know that I didn't just forget, that they suck and need to step it up. (which is rarely)
I was at a resturaunt one time, and I was supposed to get 2 bucks and some change back, I waited 20 minutes for my change to me brought to the table, and the two bucks weren't there, just the change.
I asked the waiter, and he said that was his tip! WHAT? I was going to give him the two bucks PLUS some more. Forget that. He got two bucks and a quarter.
Most of the time, I always always always leave 20%. I've never waited tables, but I understand that getting tips and living on tips is in the job requirement.
It is not a rule to leave tips, it is optional. But unless you're a total douche, if your service was good, it is EXPECTED.

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