Am I the only one bothered by the targeting of 'wooden houses' of Tokyo


Am I the only one bothered by their targeting "wooden houses" of Tokyo? He mentioned they used "fire bombs" instead of "explosive bombs" for that purpose.

I assumed that factories and important military buildings were not wooden, and thus the "explosive bombs" should be more effective against them. They used "fire bombs" to maximize the burning of wooden houses. Who lived in wooden houses? the POOR CIVILIANS!!! 100,000 of them killed in a few hours!

That made me sick to my stomach. It is one thing to unintentional kill civilians when targeting strategic targets, but TARGETING CIVILIANS? That was sick. And choosing CIVILIANS over strategic targets? I don't have word for it.

Much, much respect for Mr. McNamara to admit to it. I don't think many could. I don't know if I would. In this age of "spins", it is unusual to hear someone admitting what he did was a war crime.

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Of course many people are bothered by it, yet some see it as unfortunate. I think that Khrushchev said it very well: War ends when it has rolled through cities...sowing death and destruction. In other words, don't fight a war because it means turning loose men like Gen LeMay. When McNamara asked if it is more moral to kill people in another fashion, he may have been speaking of civilians. But we also have rules for killing combatants. Ridiculous. Expanding bullets are outlawed by Geneva, yet we wouldn't expect our own police to use anything but. Which is right? Is a sniper humane? Is a Gatling gun or a cluster bomb any less a WMD than a nuke? Rules and war are diametrically opposed terms. If rules are not tossed out for the sake of winning, they will at least be be circumvented. Is it moral to be scattering depleted Uranium all over creation? No. And we know that deep down. But it is effective and there is no rule as of yet.

I'm not sure I agree with McNamara's definition of rational if it includes a man (Castro) who can recommend an action that he believed would, or could, result in the destruction of his own people. And I would not call LeMay rational - ever ready to make the pre-emptive strike or provoke an attack (not mentioned). But you can't have a war without men who have the stomach to do the ugly work.

I do agree that McNamara is a man in pain over having been involved in certain decisions. But I don't think he was expecting to make peace by confessing. I think he was trying to do it by teaching us how to prevent more of the same. And clearly we need teaching or we wouldn't be in a war today. There would not be genocide today. We would not be reading about events that will later be cited as the resurgence of the old cold war or the beginning of a second one. We arrived at these places in the same fog that existed in 1945 or 1964. That's the truly disgusting part - that so many decades after those horrendous events, too many are still ready to respond to the tough message and to enter a fight, knowing full well the means required and the probable outcome, but denying both.

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No I'm not. If you knew of the atrocities commited by the Japs against the Chinese, Americans, Filipinos, etc. Then you would think that it was more than fair. War is hell get used to it.

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Two things that annoy me:

1) Americans like to pretend they are #1, the best there is, but in cases like that they try to relativise their own horrible actions by mentioning other horrible acts commited by others. Yes, Japan killed more civilians than USA in WW2, still, that makes USA second-to-last, not #1.

2) About the extrapolated half a million american servicemen who would have died else; Why doesnt anyone ask why it was so necessary and urgent to invade Japan and get inconditional surrender? at this point, Japan had no nore navy or air force, almost no more army or logistic to support one. They were isolated and at war with USSR, USA, China, Australia, Canada, the British Empire.... all the major powers around. Furthermore, Japan is a barren land and has no natural ressources so a blocade on fuel and building materials would have been enough to stop their war production. What was the threat to counter then? Old japanese women swimming across the Pacific and invading California armed with wooden clubs? They werent a threat to anyone anymore. The allies were containing Japan and had the upper hand in peace talks - wich were already going on, the Japan emperor already offered surrender. The objective was no more to defend American peoples but to capture Japan as a plunder race against USSR.

USSR was getting ready to invade Japan in a matter of days when USA dropped the bomb. If a land invasion of Japan had occur, it would have been soviet troops fighting, not american ones. The USSR was just done doing 90% of the actual fighting in Europe against the Nazis all by themselves, an already defeated Japan would have been no match for them. But then, your Sony Walkmen would have been less pretty and play only the red army choir music.

The United States of America is the only empire in history that never took part in a massive conventional war - since their so-called civil war of course, the moment they became an Empire. They were in a support role in WW1, their many other wars were guerilla and colonial resistance. And yes, the Pacific theater was bloody and is likely why USA were so eager to use such disproportional measures against Japan. I say that not to troll around but to point out that an US land assault of Japan just wouldnt match their pattern. In the race to take possession of Japan instead of USSR, time was just against USA.

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by - jpg92 on Mon Jan 5 2009 13:50:55
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1) Americans . . .try to relativise their own horrible actions by mentioning other horrible acts commited by others.
If that is done, it's pointless and unnecessary. This was total war and strategic bombing was part of how war was being waged in WWII. Sad, but true. All of these were legitimate military targets, defended (by definition) and containing war production facilities. Tragic that Japan didn't chose to put them somewhere that civilians didn't live.

2) About the extrapolated half a million american servicemen who would have died else; Why doesnt anyone ask why it was so necessary and urgent to invade Japan and get inconditional surrender?
The US had been involved in this war that Japan started for nearly four years, China even longer. Hindsight might give some clue as to how much longer this war would have continued under different scenarios, but there was no way anyone knew that at the time. The quickest ending to the war was the objective, and too question that premise is absurd. The US knew it had the upper hand, but that hardly means victory or quick resolution. It was July 29, 1945 when the USS Indianopolis was sunk by a Japanese torpedo, so hostilities on the sea had hardly stopped. Germany had technically lost the war in 1941 based on economics; are you suggesting that meant they were "done"?

Unconditional surrender was seen as the only acceptable end to WWII by the Allies. The Axis powers were the aggressors and were in no position to dictate the terms of surrender, if for no other reason than to not be allowed to re-arm and resume the fight another day. The other numerous reasons are well documented as well and really do not require reiterating.

The rest of your post is at best a repeated attempt at revisionist history. The fact that you seem to believe it, makes for a very sad commentary, as it is hard to remain hopeful that the world will learn from history.

BTW, I saw another post where you commented that "history is written by the victors". This is becoming a very tiresome barb to continue to sling and couldn't be further from the truth, especially in this day and age.

"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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[deleted]

The truth is that there was NO justifiable excuse. It was pure unjustified murder of innocent people.

May I give you $1.00? Then you could buy a clue. Please read a little about the history of WWII, then you might be able to discuss it.



"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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[deleted]

The tragic thing is that you deserved 9/11 more than the Japanese deserved the Bombs.


Into America bashing much? What a maroon . . .

"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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The troll needs food. No one is responding to his call for food.

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Of course you're not the only one. It's disgusting. It's similar to the fire-bombing of Dresden in WWII.

Do not write here

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Of course I was bothered by it. I don't think anyone out there wasn't bothered by it. I think the whole point is to be bothered by it. That's what the world WAS in 1945. It's shattering to look at our recent history and see those things, but we mustn't turn away and pretend they never were. Nobody is offering excuses and the film itself does not judge. You, the viewer, are free to judge as you like. You are able to do that because the film presents what was and, lest we should forget, what still is.

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They wiped out the civilians to sap the enemies morale. Morals are out of the window with an enemy like the nazis and japanese octopus. All that matters against those sort of foes is victory and utter destruction. The lesser evil.

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If I remember correctly McNamara acknowledges that had the Allies lost the war they would have been tried as war ciminals for the fire bombing.

"Everything is safe till it goes wrong" - Joe Simpson, "Touching the Void" - book only.

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If I remember correctly McNamara acknowledges that had the Allies lost the war they would have been tried as war ciminals for the fire bombing.
One of the best quotes of the movie.

Robert McNamara: "LeMay said if we lost the war that we would have all been prosecuted as war criminals. And I think he's right. He... and I'd say I... were behaving as war criminals."

"LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side has lost."

"But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?"

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Yeah it was terrible.

Another thing that was shocking was to see the amount of Japanese cities and the percentages of those cities that were destroyed. I didn't realize that that many cities were bombed and at such a large scale of destruction.

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For what the Japanese did at NanKing (the largest mass rape ever documented) I have no sorrow.

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And how are we any better than them if we did what we did? Frankly we were worse. Even McNamara tacitly acknowledged that by saying response should be "proportional".

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No we are not worse, the Japanese bombed, raped and tortured. We only bombed, I suppose you have a better strategy on how to end that war of a country of suicidal warriors who felt they deserved to rule the world.... watch "Men Behind the Sun" movies (true life accounts, of Japanese torture and experiments on Chinese civilians)

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Oh really. Killing is ok by bombing? That is some great set of moral values you have.
So we can justify attacking Japan because the japanese attacked China? You must be kidding me right?
By the way a lesson on history - Chinese empire was the first to attack Japan. We had absolutely no place to meddle in this and least of all to kill civilians en masse. No different from Nazis and concentration camps.

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Sorry to inform you but the Chinese did not attack Japan first, the Japanese first invaded Korea in 1876, and then in 1894 attacked and destroyed a Chinese fleet at sea, then the Chinese Qing gov. was forced to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, which started the first Sino-Japanese war, then they claimed Taiwan and Manchuria. Soon after the Japanese started the Russo-Japanese war in 1905 by attacking Russian owned ports.
The allies were defending themselves from Japanese terror, the Japanese attacked and invaded at least 20 different countries, who did the allies "attack" we were defending ourselves, if somebody has a gun to your families head, and you have the chance to save their lives by killing the attacker, that doesn't mean you have a bad "set of moral values"
Look what happened in the Island campaigns Iwo Jimo, Saipan etc.. The whole of Japan was ready to die to kill the allies, bombing was the only way to save the world, comparable to WWI's Treatry of Versailles we let the Germans escape, and look what they did after, started another war..

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I am talking about middle ages. Look a little further than previous century. This conflict started way back...

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Well I would hardly compare a dozen chinese junks to a Japanese naval fleet. What "attacks" are you talking about, what year? face it the Japanese had to be bombed, I feel sorry for the civilians, but i feel more sorrow for the millions of civilians the japanese killed.

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You heard of Kublai Khan?
It was technically under the Mongol empire but that was then a confederation with China being the biggest part of the mongol empire. The capital was Dadu (Beijing). The majority of soldiers were chinese in the navy and they used chinese and korean vessels exclusively. The mongols had no navy. So to the japanese it was not much difference than China attacking them. That was 13th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan

By your primitive eye for an eye justification the japanese were well justified in doing what they did to China and Korea. This is what the Chinese did back in the 13th century:
"Finally, in 1274, the Yuan fleet set out, with an estimated 15,000 Mongol and Chinese soldiers and 8,000 Korean warriors, in 300 large vessels and 400-500 smaller craft, although figures vary considerably depending on the source. They ravaged the islands of Tsushima and Iki, including piercing the hands of women and hanging them on their boats."

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Furthermore the Japanese were forced to attack Pearl Harbor. If you use that as an excuse for attacking them Roosevelt used it as an excuse too..and concocted it. Only thing now we know who was behind all that and why it really happened.
The japanese had no option but to attack Pearl Harbor. It is pitiful that the US government sacrificed so many americans to this end....

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The 13th century!? Japan had 100 feudal civil wars going on at that time! (Bushido Shogun) you're going to compare that to the 19th century? that is no excuse for them attacking China. Why were the Japanese justified by attacking Pearl Habour? don't forget with your ignorant eye, the Japanese attacked Korea, Russia, China, Taiwan, all of south Asia and the US, what was their justification in doing that, are you Japanese, I have friends that are and they admit full well Japan was at fault.
What the Japanese did to civilains in WWII was 100x worse than what any Chinese soldier did to a Japanese civilian "7 centuries" ago, ever heard of the rape of Nanking, comfort women, Japanese rape police force, officer killing competitions, the labratory experiments at Unit 731 carried out on civilians and animals; freezing people, vivisections, pressure tanks, bio-chemical live testing, drownings, animals killing live people, infant murder etc..
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THIS! you need to re-examine your "moral values" if you dis-regard this info.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099757/

This all started with Commodore Matthew Perry, if you know anything about Japanese History.

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Erm do you have ADD. What does internal war have to do with Chinese attacking. Yes of course they had civil wars. The US had a pretty bloody war too. It was actually much worse than any the the japanese have ever had. Perhaps in your twisted logic that would justify Canada perhaps invading the US? Are you insane or just stupid?

The bottom line is the Chinese started this first and yes they did things just as bad to civilians then. The japanese did not forget this and they were waiting for revenge. Until the Chinese invaded the japanese had not started one international conflict.

As for Pearl Harbor do some research first. You are lazy. The documents have been declassified. The US had broken the Japanese code in the Pacific. We sent false communications alerting bases to prepare for mass assault on Japan. The japanese took the bait as Roosevelt hoped and decided to attack preemptively rather than wait out the threatened american invasion. We had all the japanese communication and NEW they were attacking and exactly WHEN and Roosevelt and joint chiefs let them destroy Pearl Harbor and kill numerous soldiers just so they could get popular opinion behind the war.
This was all on TV even. i cannot believe how many people are still going on information from 50 years ago. Get off your fat lazy but and do some reading before you make yourself look like an idiot.

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Actually that was all documented previously. McNamara isn't the first to reveal it. He did try to spin it regardless I think.
My biggest problem with him was he asks the questions "is this moral?" and then goes on to answer the question with saying that there are no laws against doing that in wartime and that he would not order anything illegal.
Does this man know the difference between moral and legal? Perhaps not.
To me he is no different than the nazis. If you put up a nazi and interviewed them they would say the same thing "what i did was perfectly legal".

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