Not Pure Garbage


I don't understand how someone can judge something without even watching it fully through...

Great art is visceral--it should drag your mind kicking and screaming towards new frontiers. I'm not sure this movie is great, but it is visceral and it does have a "point."

The funny thing is that it's point (as far as I read it) is essentially conservative. Matthew is an observer of what can happen when parents raise their children with the idea that all social conventions and values are bad (or wrong). They defy any social or traditional conventions and laws with impunity. Matthew with his wholesome, traditional, American values is shocked by most of what these post-modern, French teens do, but he is coaxed along every step of the way for reasons that could be explored but I'm not going to here.

If critics had watched to the end they would have seen that he ultimately rejects this post-modern value system.

That's the "point" of this movie.

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The people that dont like the movie, and call it garbage dont understand the movie. All they see is sex an incest. But it's not all that, it goes much deeper than that.

After seeing this film for the first time yesterday, it's now one of my favourite film's.



I Am The Future Mrs Wolowitz

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Can you elaborate on how it goes much deeper?
I have tried so hard to like this film. A good friend of mine recommended it and I hated telling her that I thought it was garbage..but I did. I felt it was so beyond pretentious that it was unwatchable. Then they threw in the incest and that was a bit of a final straw for me. I am still trying to find out why I should appreciate this film but found nothing compelling. If anyone can attempt persuade me otherwise I would be glad to listen.

Voting History: http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=26598711

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I explained how I thought it went deeper in the OP, but I'll try to elaborate (an open mind is a terrible thing to waste!).

SPOILER ALERT :)

I view this film as essentially a critique on post-modernism. It helps if you know the philosophical implications of this. Long story short: the postmoderns hold that all values are created. There are different takes on why and how they are created, but that's what it boils down to. So, for example, the taboo of incest is a social convention: created by society.

I think many people on these boards get it wrong. The director isn't portraying the twins as psychologically perverse, but rather he's saying these kids have been raised as true post-modern children: ones who eschew all of the values society has tried to give them. We see this with his academic parents. France, and particularly french academies have been hotbeds of post-modernism from the end of WWII until today. Their father's poem is post-modern and Mathew's lighter speech is post-modern as well. And it's clear the way Theo belittles his father that these aren't exactly "rule-oriented" parents. They have raised their children to be this way because it's how they see the bourgeois world.

In comes Matthew: young, wide-eyed American kid with American values. He's attracted to their rebel-without-a-cause attitude. Here's a real woman! Look at the way that cigarette dangles from her mouth as she's chained to the gate in protest! He is given pause in the way they treat their parents, but that soon passes. The excitement of their unconventionality, their love of film, of rebellion, and of the sexuality of it all brings him back wanting more. This is basically the cycle of the film: they shock him, but they excite him and he stays... through his molestation, through the loss of his virginity in the kitchen, etc., until finally they rebel against the state itself. To Matthew, this is too much, he realizes this is wrong: this is a value too far.

The parallel to this is the plot line of the twins parents. Now, they're not in the film much, but when they are, you can see how they are visibly disturbed more and more by their children's behavior but let it go because this is how they've taught them to behave. Even when they find them sleeping together. They are appalled but cant bring themselves to condemn them, so instead they slink away in shame.

It's this shame of the parents and Matthew's rejection of their values that is the ultimate message of this film. And that's what I mean when I say its message is a conservative one. It says that "No, the post-moderns are wrong. There are some values worth keeping!"

Respect your parents. ;)

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Thank you for your patience and civility!

Well, most people realize that incest is taboo because the children resulting in incest have a whole slew of problems including retardation.

And thank you for clearing this up for me, I definitely appreciate the film more now. Still feel it's a bit forced but I don't hate it like I used to.

Voting History: http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=26598711

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It was clearly stated in the film that there was nothing sexual (in terms of penetration) when it came to the unorthodox relationship between Isabella and Matthew. It was more of a psychological obsession to one another. Also, they were twins and people do claim that twins can have weird and special bonds. It may be taboo, but keep in mind that it is only a work of art trying to convey a much deeper meaning.

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everything was a shock and awe for matthew.things he hadnt seen in his life ever.at the dinner table when all of them are smoking, you can see matthews reaction. he is awed by their behaviour.when isabelle introduces him to her father, the father sort of strokes her on the back and that is focused in-your-face with matthews awestruck face. does that mean the father and daughter have a sexual relationship? no. imo, these subtleties make the film deeper and good cross-over between cultures and how matthew finally draws the line at the end.

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"The people that dont like the movie, and call it garbage dont understand the movie".

Such a lazy, cliched observation. I guess you're the tender genius who can see in to the director's soul. In my opinion, this film is not entirely without merit, but in the main it is an excuse for some lingering shots of attractive young people's cock and fanny propped up with some cod philosophising.

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"Great art is visceral--it should drag your mind kicking and screaming towards new frontiers."

That's really just brilliant. I agree 100%. Well said.

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That is an extremely beautiful quote. Is it yours? I love it. Perfect for this film and Bertolucci in general... I find he is a master at giving a fair/unbiased look of "taboo" subjects. I also find incest very disturbing, simply because... hmm. I cannot understand it. But I really love this film and its one of my favourites. I wonder if in the film version.. if Theo and Isa were incestuous... It seemed like they were just completely devoid of fear of what others think of them. Sleeping together, etc... is not sexual. They were two halves of one person and I really saw that in the scene where Theo touches Isabelle after she has sex with Matthew. It was almost like he was experiencing something for the first time too...

I didn't see incest in the film version at all really... It was almost as though they were just one person and Matthew's mind separated that person in two genders... But I know that's not how it is, it just gave me that impression.

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[deleted]

Why yes it is. Thank you! I actually had forgotten about it. Perhaps I'll write it down...

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I enjoyed this movie because it's different and kept me wondering why these twins did such strange things...

pack your panties Sammie, we're hitting the road...

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This movie has less to do with what post-modern French teens do and more to do with every individual's/group's/society's dreams (ideals) and confronting the actual reality.

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the people who judge this movie are the people who see human natural body as a embarring thing and who only see incest.
i never understand ,why are the people so afraid of sex or human body?

and there is no incest in this movie ,Theo and Isabelle love each other as like the little children.for them there is nothing wrong about being naked while they are together because they were born together,they spent 9 *beep* month in their mother belly together,they came to life naked and together ,so they just want to continue to stay in that way

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Well said. We only feel shame, because it's ingrained in our lives/society. Surely those tribes who live in tents/teepees don't care about nudity and are banging around each other all the time, because that's how their village is constructed. One's not better than the other.

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