MovieChat Forums > The Human Stain (2003) Discussion > A film about race and class, dominated b...

A film about race and class, dominated by rich white actors


There was no rhythm to this film. The cast didn't gel. The movie never got its groove on, even though individual performances were wonderful. (Harry Lennix and Anna Deveare Smith were brilliantly self-contained.) It felt like a series of monologues, not a cohesive film.

Perhaps an American should have played the main role, or at least someone with closer connections to the pain of race in America. Hopkins seemed way too far removed.

I believe that a good actor can transcend race, class, ethnicity. A good actor can play a character with whom they personally have very little in common. But for some reason, in this case, that leap didn't happen.

Why didn't they cast a very light-skinnned brotha? Why cast whites to play other races when there are plenty of quality "non-white" actors out there? I suppose that Hopkins' name would guarantee sales.

This was a film about race and class, dominated by rich white actors. Unfotunately, it showed.

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I agree.

Thank god they chose Wentworth Miller. I'm not sure it was his first film but he did a fantastic job. He was very firm about portraying his character truly, bringing his own mixed background into his performance.

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Wentworth has a little African American in him, plus a dozen other ethnic groups. I read his bio online years ago.

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[deleted]

I agree. There are actors (Alfred Molina, Cliff CUrtis) who can jump perfectly into another culture's skin. Anthony Hopinks ain't one of them. Not only was he not believeably black, he wasn't believeably vibrant or athletic or sexy or any of the other things that Coleman's supposed to be. Nicole Kidman and Ed Harris did their best but they couldn't quite pull it off either. Really I thought the best performances were the young Coleman and the young Steena.

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For me, this movie proved that there is no "mis-casting" that actors can't overcome-- great performances, across the board, imo.

-Bryan

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I really have to agree with the first comment that the film had no rhythm - the pacing was definately off with the flip flopping w/Coleman past and present - it was hard to know if he was thinking of these moments or just part of the editing - there were also times when things were said for shock value like when Nicole's character is talking about her abusive husband and mentions he happened to put her in a coma for 2 days or about her kid,s boxes of ashes under the bed - there was so little connection between the characters these moments seemed to float into the air - also at the end when Coleman confesses his secret it had no impact - for all that is shown of the past, he lost his girlfriend because of his race but how else did it effect his life besides deciding to loss contact w/his family? I could not detect any remorse on Coleman's part on how he had lived his life so did it really matter at that point besides it needing to be done for some dramatic moment - w/the acting, though Anthony Hopkins has not always made the best film choices he is always interesting to watch and does command the screen - now with Nicole Kidman she seemed to be trying too hard to be tough and damaged - besides the irritating slowed down way she had of speaking, it was hard to believe her cleaning floors and milking cows - her looks are very hard to hide like Halle Berry in Monsters Ball - hopefully she will not make the same career choices as Ms. Oscar Winner Berry though lets say Human Stain did not help much.

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First of all, let's drop the 'rich white actors'. I have seen pure white skinned people who had black in their family tree.

This would have been a great film if they had stuck to Roth's book. It was sort of an "Imitation of Life" but on a man's side.

The acting was superb, but nothing could save this movie. The screenplay was just all wrong.


"For nothing is lost, that cannot be found....if sought."

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[deleted]

Many people are ignorant when it comes to this, but NOT everyone from Africa is black. There are people who look lighter skinned than some "white" people. I know, I've known a few.

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[deleted]

Mariah Carey definately looks a lot more Caucasian than many of the Middle Easterners who are classified as white.

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1. mariah carey is hispanic and white.
2. yeah not all africans are the dark as a black hole. but that was due to a lot of mixing with romans, spainards, greeks, turks, and some french people over last 3000 years or so. when talking about african americans most of them come from the ivory coast and most black in that area didn't see white people unll the 1500's. and most of the ones that did see white people it was though bars at first. most blacks slaves or free didn't have a choice in haveing a mixed child. if a white guy wanted some from a black girl. he got it.
3 there was some discontiveness for nicole kidmans charater, because she didn't want to think about her kids being dead that is why she worked three jobs. i wouldn't want to have my kids in a two tiny shiny brass boxes under my bed. to think those where her only posations. i think that she was telling colemen so he would leave her and not get involed.
4. there is a differce between young and old coleman. that could be attributted to just getting older and living 40 years with this secreate. he had lost his about six monthes or so then he met faunia. and it was like he was reliving his 20's again.
5. hopkins was great for the part because he is white. you don't think that maybe he is anything differnt then what he is. then when to coach says to say that your colored. then you go, what? you look at wentworth miller and then wow this movie is about somthing totally differnt then what i though it was. hopkins' name does sell alot of movie tickets though. i rented the trial cause his name was in bold on the cover. the man was only in the movie for 5 min. hopkins owe me 2 bucks and 2hrs of his time that i my friter a way.
6. the reason why there isn't a big reacton for faunia is that times have changed. she loves him regardless.

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1. Mariah is black latino and caucasion.

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Theoretically, we are all triracial. Or perhaps, bi-racial. Very few people are pure-anything. It is clear that we have different features.

In that case, Mariahs' features are clearly white or caucasian. How she identifies personally is her beeswax.

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I have to disagree! Their is no way that someone can look at her and think she is just white. Her eyes tell all. Plus her high cheek bones are a dead giveaway. She looks more "black" than wentworth miller and he is half black!

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Same cheekbones as Joss Stone, Jenna B. Angie Harmon, Lindsay Lohan and many others. High Cheekbones are very prevalent amongst hispanic and Native American women as well. The "Wentworth Millers" of the world are theoretically half black. Recombination during meiosis scrambles the genes. And, the 'biological backgrounds of the parents are a second factor. Just becaUSE someone identifies as white, black or Chinese, doesn't mean that their gene pools are in agreement.

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I understand that, but there is no way that i could consider this http://www.poster.net/carey-mariah/carey-mariah-photo-mariah-carey-6205495.jpg
a white looking woman. Sure she looks like she has white blood running through her, but its also obvious that she is mixed with something else.

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Ok. We're back to characterizing the genetic process in 18th century racialistic terms. At least since Mendel, it is clear that heredity is transmitted through genes or alleles.

She nor anyone else has white blood running through her. Predictively, the chances that we will get beyond this impasse is slim to non. I believe that Mariah fits right in with Caucasians--as for as appearance is concerned. yOU see something else. Fair enough. I will concede this. Her voice doesn't sound like your typical Anglo Saxon. Very Husky.

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jesus! why do we have to keep going through this?
mariah carey "fits right in with caucasians" if you're a WHITE person and haven't lived as a black person raised around people who look like mariah carey---BLACK people---all your life.
people (white people) are all of a sudden so eager to discard what you want to call "18th century racialistic terms" and "thinking", not realizing that it is these so-called "terms" that have been the basis for forming/forging black people's community, family ties, etc. for GENERATIONS. when countless black people in the u.s. have grandparents and great-grandparents that look like mariah carey--people who are considered black and are culturally black because of upbringing, experience, etc.,--you can't turn around and tell black people that their cousins, siblings, family members who look like mariah circa 2005 all of a sudden aren't "black"! they are what they are.
and please don't misunderstand me. this isn't about mariah and how she might personally identify. this is about the countless "mariahs" in the black community who DO identify as black because they have black parents, are reared as black, are culturally black, etc. i don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that "blackness" in this country has never been about color or phenotype---certainly not after the history of rape and sexual abuse that occurred under slavery, jim-crow, etc.

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What is culturally black?

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Culturally black is when a person (of some african heritage) does not fit into the racial profile of how a black person is "supposed" to look, but has had the same experiences and cultural ties as someone who is. I, as a lightskinned African American am culturally black. Been call a *beep* been discriminated against, understand the depth of pain and oppression of our past that binds us in brotherhood and sisterhood (whether African, Carribean, American, or Hispanic); i.e. culturally black.

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Absolutely, euridycespike1. Being "culturally black" refers to the values, mores, behavior patterns that most black people share regardless of class background, region, locale, etc. It's those things that often draw a blank from most white people, unless they've been exposed to black culture extensively. It's the differences in how we worship, the foods we eat, how we rear children, speech patterns, our cultural expressions (art forms), our sense of a common history, even body language and gesture.
That overarching culture is shared by black people who vary in color and complexion. It matters not how light or white-appearing you are or how dark-skinned and "identifiable", the key thing is identity.

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Does a religious, family, state, occupational, personal interest such as environmentalism or animal activist supercede racial identity?

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not sure how to answer your question, but i'll try.
i live within this black skin which means constantly, without fail, others react to me as a black woman, bringing whatever "baggage" they might carry in their heads regarding that identity. does that mean that my racial identity supercedes my being a human being just like any other human being, with varied interests, feelings, hope, dreams, aspirations, sensibilities, etc? of course not.

nevertheless, i'm not niave enough to think that i am ever viewed fully as a human being in this society--a human being free of and apart from the label "black" that is consistently imposed upon me. that is not to say that every individual white person i encounter is racist. (certainly not true.) or that every single white person i encounter may cart that conceptual baggage around. (some---those who have struggled to interrogate white racism/privilege---hopefully do not.) when the "default" identity for "human being" is unfortunately coded as "white", these things go with the territory.
hope that makes sense...

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savvygal:
___________________________________________________________________________
not sure how to answer your question, but i'll try.
i live within this black skin which means constantly, without fail, others react to me as a black woman, bringing whatever "baggage" they might carry in their heads regarding that identity. does that mean that my racial identity supercedes my being a human being just like any other human being, with varied interests, feelings, hope, dreams, aspirations, sensibilities, etc? of course not.

nevertheless, i'm not niave enough to think that i am ever viewed fully as a human being in this society--a human being free of and apart from the label "black" that is consistently imposed upon me. that is not to say that every individual white person i encounter is racist. (certainly not true.) or that every single white person i encounter may cart that conceptual baggage around. (some---those who have struggled to interrogate white racism/privilege---hopefully do not.) when the "default" identity for "human being" is unfortunately coded as "white", these things go with the territory.
hope that makes sense...
_____________________________________________________________________________





No...this doesn't make sense. I think you are trying to say that you would not like to be labeled as "black". Which is understandable. But a few postings ago you said you consider yourself "culturally black". So your saying that you are light skinned and have adopted the "black culture", but feel wronged when society labels you as "black". This is circular thinking and, in essence, you have just perpetuated the very thing you despise, and get this, onto YOURSELF. You are your own executioner. Since when does the definition of a human being mean "white"? That's just simply not true. Albeit there are people that think that way, but it's not the prevailing notion of society in my opinion.

You can't have it both ways. This society will never get over the hump of labels if you, and others, don't shed the way you think. You have to feel equal, no matter how certain people in society treat you. Everyone in society as an equal opportunity. The more people insist that they do not, and then blame someone else, a group, or society for their position in life, will never succeed and will often pass this practice on to their children/family. and it is perpetuated by all races and colors (all meaning ALL, not just black and white). The same way that racism is passed on by parents and environment, the feeling of inequality is also passed and learned.

Now I know you've heard that line thinking before. but hear me out. A buddy of mine in high school went to MIT and now makes more money than I probably ever will, he is black. Another buddy of mine, my best friend actually, is addicted to weed, has two kids that he doesn't provide for, steals, and is basically homeless. He is white, he will go nowhere in life. We all have something in common. Same school, same town, same friends.

Every race, creed and ethnicity have a sub group that ultimately tries to hinder the progression of A) it’s own group and B) society -- be it intentional or accidental. They are bigots, criminals, and well intentioned “activists” that really hurt progression as much as they TRY to help it.



On a personal note, I think society should only label people's skin when actually describing the physical characteristic of someone. such as, "the guy that stole my baby was tall and white or black or Hispanic or Asian or Arab, etc.." If you think that is wrong, then you are naive and are one of the people that does not have enough common sense to live happily with your diverse neighbors. Plus they may not find your baby cause they are looking at 1,000 people instead of 100.



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go back and read the sistah's comments. her analysis is clear and cogent. unfortunately, you just didn't get it.
not to mention that the pedestrian, saccharine, trite "color-doesn't-matter" fluff you're talking is about as removed from the "real world" as you can get.

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well said, 'piquedninny' LOL (and LOL again) but truly, well said.

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No. It comes across as more 'you cant understand, whitey' black ideology. This black 'baggage' you speak of, could you be more specific?

Is that the 99% of blacks voting for Obama because of his skin color? See, black people can use words like 'my brothas and sistas' and openly speak about, 'black people need this...', or 'my black people need...' the whole time they are moaning about white privilege of course. Everyone knows they are voting as one block because of skin color..but nobody mentions it.

White people can do none of that. Openly speaking about anything 'white' gets you labeled a racist and prompts Al 'Tawana Brawley' Sharpton or Jesse 'Hymietown' Jackson to picket your childrens school, your place of work, and demonize you into silence...with sistas like above high-fiving and daring you to say something about it.

Its the same black 'baggage' that refuses to talk about weekly 'mob' attacks by sometimes as many as 300 black 'youths' (code word in the news for blacks) on innocent people, setting a 16yr old white boy on fire while yelling, 'thats what you get whitey' (happened during the Trayvon fiasco), 70+% out of wedlock births, no fathers in the family, 12.8% responsible for epic portions of crime, murders, etc.,....ALL THIS while calling white people 'cowards' (like Eric Holder did) for not talking about race!

Its pathetic and a tool used to silence. So preach on about white privilege sista! No one can disagree with you or of course its racism! Nice!

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QUOTE - VOXIC

Savvygal:
___________________________________________________________________________
not sure how to answer your question, but i'll try.
i live within this black skin which means constantly, without fail, others react to me as a black woman, bringing whatever "baggage" they might carry in their heads regarding that identity. does that mean that my racial identity supercedes my being a human being just like any other human being, with varied interests, feelings, hope, dreams, aspirations, sensibilities, etc? of course not.

nevertheless, i'm not niave enough to think that i am ever viewed fully as a human being in this society--a human being free of and apart from the label "black" that is consistently imposed upon me. that is not to say that every individual white person i encounter is racist. (certainly not true.) or that every single white person i encounter may cart that conceptual baggage around. (some---those who have struggled to interrogate white racism/privilege---hopefully do not.) when the "default" identity for "human being" is unfortunately coded as "white", these things go with the territory.
hope that makes sense...
_____________________________________________________________________________


Voxic:


No...this doesn't make sense. I think you are trying to say that you would not like to be labeled as "black". Which is understandable. But a few postings ago you said you consider yourself "culturally black". So your saying that you are light skinned and have adopted the "black culture", but feel wronged when society labels you as "black". This is circular thinking and, in essence, you have just perpetuated the very thing you despise, and get this, onto YOURSELF. You are your own executioner. Since when does the definition of a human being mean "white"? That's just simply not true. Albeit there are people that think that way, but it's not the prevailing notion of society in my opinion.

You can't have it both ways. This society will never get over the hump of labels if you, and others, don't shed the way you think. You have to feel equal, no matter how certain people in society treat you. Everyone in society as an equal opportunity. The more people insist that they do not, and then blame someone else, a group, or society for their position in life, will never succeed and will often pass this practice on to their children/family. and it is perpetuated by all races and colors (all meaning ALL, not just black and white). The same way that racism is passed on by parents and environment, the feeling of inequality is also passed and learned.

Now I know you've heard that line thinking before. but hear me out. A buddy of mine in high school went to MIT and now makes more money than I probably ever will, he is black. Another buddy of mine, my best friend actually, is addicted to weed, has two kids that he doesn't provide for, steals, and is basically homeless. He is white, he will go nowhere in life. We all have something in common. Same school, same town, same friends.

Every race, creed and ethnicity have a sub group that ultimately tries to hinder the progression of A) it’s own group and B) society -- be it intentional or accidental. They are bigots, criminals, and well intentioned “activists” that really hurt progression as much as they TRY to help it.



On a personal note, I think society should only label people's skin when actually describing the physical characteristic of someone. such as, "the guy that stole my baby was tall and white or black or Hispanic or Asian or Arab, etc.." If you think that is wrong, then you are naive and are one of the people that does not have enough common sense to live happily with your diverse neighbors. Plus they may not find your baby cause they are looking at 1,000 people instead of 100.


Voxic i so whole heartedly agree with everything you have written. Have faith please and know that there are overwhelmingly many who shares you view, only few who come to an Imdb board.

I am myself of mixed race and i have grown up around a loving african mother and a loving european father, and i can only say that i agree alot with your views.

To savvygal, i think your misinterpreting what Voxic is saying, his point is not to label the black community racist, i love the fact you dislike labels(as do i), it is that every community is racist.

I am happy to see that some of my own views are also expressed here, i believe the whole blaming racism is moronic, it is a self destructive circle of evil, i believe that it is no longer racism that is the problem but rather the belief that everyone is a racist now a days, and when you believe it, it will seem real to yourself.

Well it is good to see open discussion and i just wanted to voice that i agree with your views Voxic and you should know that many do.

And lastly, my native language is danish, so my english may or may not be completely perfect, im getting there.

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@ trolderikbuhl



I knwo this is late, but thank you.





















________________________
Dags? Yeah, I like Dags

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voxic  well said.

The beauty is I'm learning how to face my beast ~ Blue October

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[deleted]

you speak truth, savvygirl, but they will not hear.

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[deleted]

I don't think a "light-skinned brotha" would have worked. The character had gone through his whole life, including a stint in the navy and a lengthy marriage, without being found out. And for the first half of the movie, we didn't know he was black (unless you had read the book). For the shock factor, and for the believability of the back-story, he needed to either be white, or be an unknown "light-skinned brotha" who we didn't know was black.

He made me sit in front of a plateful of yams for a good thirty, thirty-five minutes.

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There was no rhythm to this film. The cast didn't gel. The movie never got its groove on, even though individual performances were wonderful. (Harry Lennix and Anna Deveare Smith were brilliantly self-contained.) It felt like a series of monologues, not a cohesive film.

Perhaps an American should have played the main role, or at least someone with closer connections to the pain of race in America. Hopkins seemed way too far removed.

I believe that a good actor can transcend race, class, ethnicity. A good actor can play a character with whom they personally have very little in common. But for some reason, in this case, that leap didn't happen.

Why didn't they cast a very light-skinnned brotha? Why cast whites to play other races when there are plenty of quality "non-white" actors out there? I suppose that Hopkins' name would guarantee sales.

This was a film about race and class, dominated by rich white actors. Unfotunately, it showed.
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The whole point of this story is to point out the social idocy of labels. The story needed to have a "white" guy who had a "black" heritage. Because it really tries to point out some of the moronic prtactices of still requiring that people select a color on a questionaire. Also, it tries to convey that "what if" questions.

If you read any Philip Roth novel you know that he is a king of "what if". In this case, "what if a white guy had a black family."

So really, its hypothetical look at the effects of racial biggotry in society. The main character would not have been able to lead a normal life, no matter what "color" he decided to tell people he was. If he told the whites that he was black, he would become an outcast, if he told the black people that he was really black, they wouldn't beleive him without dragging his family everywhere he went to prove it. It was a lose lose situation. He had to make a choice. Whether he made a right or wrong choice, now there's the topic.

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oh, please!
how many times do black people have to scream to high-heaven that black people like coleman silk are not an anomaly in the black community? and still some of you continue to trot out this ill-informed nonsense about how black folks wouldn't "believe him without dragging his family everwhere he went to prove it"
does allison davis, jr. who worked on the film as a consultant have to "drag his family" everywhere to prove his blackness to other black people? do the countless light-skinned, often white-appearing black folks who have been part of the black community for generations have to "drag their families" around to certify who they are?
please stop holding forth on subjects that you obviously know nothing about. when in doubt, ask somebody who knows.
phillip roth himself wrote this novel based on his own personal experience. (roth dated a fair-skinned black woman in graduate school whose family was indistinquishable from white.) this "phenomenon" is nothing new, except to naive white folks who perpetuated this fallacy of "race" from the get-go and now feign astonishment when faced with the physical embodiments of hypodescent rules and generations of "race-mixing" in this country

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oh, please!
how many times do black people have to scream to high-heaven that black people like coleman silk are not an anomaly in the black community? and still some of you continue to trot out this ill-informed nonsense about how black folks wouldn't "believe him without dragging his family everwhere he went to prove it"
does allison davis, jr. who worked on the film as a consultant have to "drag his family" everywhere to prove his blackness to other black people? do the countless light-skinned, often white-appearing black folks who have been part of the black community for generations have to "drag their families" around to certify who they are?
please stop holding forth on subjects that you obviously know nothing about. when in doubt, ask somebody who knows.
phillip roth himself wrote this novel based on his own personal experience. (roth dated a fair-skinned black woman in graduate school whose family was indistinquishable from white.) this "phenomenon" is nothing new, except to naive white folks who perpetuated this fallacy of "race" from the get-go and now feign astonishment when faced with the physical embodiments of hypodescent rules and generations of "race-mixing" in this country
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Ok, but you are talking about america.
In other countries, especially in latin america, people like wentwhort miller could never get a "black" status even if he carried his father around him.
He would be considered a white person, a white person, clearly proud of his black heritage, but white.

And about the people that think mariah carrey looks black. It was common sometime in the mexican gossip shows that she was called a "dumb blonde gringa", she has some exotic looks, but looks white mostly

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yes, of course we're talking about america. the film is set in america, dealing with a key aspect of united states history.
it's rather disingenuous to bring up what wentworth would be considered in brazil or mexico or venezuela or argentina. we're talking about light-skinned african americans who can pass for white. the context is not latin america, but the u.s.

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oh, please!
how many times do black people have to scream to high-heaven that black people like coleman silk are not an anomaly in the black community? and still some of you continue to trot out this ill-informed nonsense about how black folks wouldn't "believe him without dragging his family everwhere he went to prove it"
does allison davis, jr. who worked on the film as a consultant have to "drag his family" everywhere to prove his blackness to other black people? do the countless light-skinned, often white-appearing black folks who have been part of the black community for generations have to "drag their families" around to certify who they are?
please stop holding forth on subjects that you obviously know nothing about. when in doubt, ask somebody who knows.
phillip roth himself wrote this novel based on his own personal experience. (roth dated a fair-skinned black woman in graduate school whose family was indistinquishable from white.) this "phenomenon" is nothing new, except to naive white folks who perpetuated this fallacy of "race" from the get-go and now feign astonishment when faced with the physical embodiments of hypodescent rules and generations of "race-mixing" in this country

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Of course I don't literally mean that he would have to drag his family around, you moron. I was trying to say that if he claimed he was white, he would face discrimination among the whites becasue his family was black. If he claimed he was black, he would face discrimination in the black community becasue he looked white. Mixed people, for example, face large amounts of disrimination from both races based on their skin color. Why else would he make the comment about NOT going to Horward University and being with his "people"? He knew he would not be accepted as black around black people. He knew he would not be accepted by the whites if his family was black. The point I was trying to make is that the fact he needs to "claim" to be a certain race is fundamentally wrong. THAT's what needs to change. And I think there are people out there that don't ever want it to change, and I think ALL races have people that don't want it to change.

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who told you that "mixed people face large amounts of discrimination from both races based on their skin color"? did you hear this from the "mixed children" of white mothers, raised in predominately white communities, often estranged from their black roots and often acculturated to feel uncomfortable around blacks?
or have you heard this from the countless "mixed people" in the black community, some the product of interracial marriages and others just fair-skinned black people who often appear more "mixed" than so-called biracials? have the countless allison davises, adam clayton powells, sharon pratt kellys and countless others who grew up "light, bright and dayum near white" in the black community "not been accepted by black people"?
you cite howard university and the fact that young coleman made the comment about not going to howard and being with his people. (it never occurs to you that this might just be one more example of coleman's self-hatred and discomfort with his own "blackness" rather than based on anything in reality regarding actual treatment he would experience at howard) instead, you immediately leap to the assumption that that statement suggests that "he knew he would not be accepted as black around black people". obviously, you know very little about howard university. does the name mordecai johnson ring a bell for you? does the fact that howard (washington, dc. in general) has been for GENERATIONS a bastion of light, close-to-white looking black folks like coleman even dawn on you? do you know how ludicrous you sound suggesting that at howard, of all places, light-skinned black folks would be ostracized and considered out of the norm? you are abysmally ignorant on this topic, as are most whites (i'm assuming you're white because no black person would be this clueless about the acceptance and presence of light-skinned black people, biracial or otherwise, in the black community) who speak with authority regarding things they no nothing about. the black community has long had its "coleman silks", long before a generation of white women, from the 80's on, began having "biracial" children en masse.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

no, voxic, wrong again. i don't assume that you know nothing about "another race" because you're white, but based on your statements which strike me as severely misinformed and off-base.
i'm not trying to get into a flame war with you. i sense that you're young and impassioned and more than likely have your heart in the right place (more than i can say for a lot of whites who post on these boards.) having said that, you are presumptuous in thinking that your experience alone can give you insight into the dynamic of race in this culture. (although, i must admit that i am encouraged by you recognizing the fallacy/shortcomings of that tendency.) yes, your "convictions" may be strong and your sense of outrage about racial inequality/racism genuine. but failing to understand why those "racial labels" were generated and clearly understanding how "race", racism and white privilege function within global white supremacy keeps you from being the staunch, proactive anti-racist activist i sense that you may evolve into. (and no, i have no issue with a "white guy having an opinion about the white community". but the whites whose opinions i respect are those whose "opinions" are deeply rooted in intense, rigorous, passionate interrogation of racism and white privilege, not just those with knee-jerk responses and "good intentions".)
as much as you might think that "all the older people" dying off will somehow resolve the race quandary, unfortunately, white supremacy and racism will live on, until people, black AND white, obtain the tools and theoretical armament to vigorously contest it. although i suspect you'll come back at me with more expletives and anger, my suggestion to you is that you do some reading in the field of white privilege, the historical construction of "race", etc. if you haven't read peggy mcintosh's landmark "white privilege:unpacking the unvisible knapsack", that is a great place to start.

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savvygal:
<
not sure how to answer your question, but i'll try.
i live within this black skin which means constantly, without fail, others react to me as a black woman, bringing whatever "baggage" they might carry in their heads regarding that identity. does that mean that my racial identity supercedes my being a human being just like any other human being, with varied interests, feelings, hope, dreams, aspirations, sensibilities, etc? of course not.

nevertheless, i'm not niave enough to think that i am ever viewed fully as a human being in this society--a human being free of and apart from the label "black" that is consistently imposed upon me. that is not to say that every individual white person i encounter is racist. (certainly not true.) or that every single white person i encounter may cart that conceptual baggage around. (some---those who have struggled to interrogate white racism/privilege---hopefully do not.) when the "default" identity for "human being" is unfortunately coded as "white", these things go with the territory.
hope that makes sense...
>


You seem quite impressed with your ability to repeat "white privilege" over and over again, whether there is the tiny problem of it having absolutely no meaning in modern America or not. Have you never stopped spouting the same tired, self righteous cliches long enough to realize the complete hypocrisy of your own argument? Have you never once considered that blacks harbor just as much "conceptual baggage", as you put it, as whites, and perhaps blacks might need to "struggle to interrogate black racism" just as much as anyone else? No, probably not. Hypocrites seldom like self analyzation.

If you haven't even confronted those minor issues, you certainly haven't tackled the institutionalized self pity and progress retardation perpetrated by black community and political "leaders". You speak incessantly about "white privilege", yet seem unable to dissect black Americans own contribution to their situation. Last I checked, "white privilege" died out quite a while ago... although, I'd still like my own water fountain :(.

The reality is, any oppression still existing today which allows what you charmingly term "white privilege" is really more aptly named "racial self oppression". If anything, we're facing "people willing to work harder than everyone else 'privilege'". Then again, it's easier to just say "the white man kept me down" and not have to take any further self responsibility. The problem is, that excuse doesn't work any longer. In modern America, the only limiting factor to success is laziness, self oppression and the idea you're not in control of your fate. All of those limits to success are up to the individual to choose whether to prosecute their elimination, or to hide behind them. Success and lingering racism are two separate and unconnected things. Racism can either be slightly annoying or a reason not to try, but it's certainly not preventing achievement. Unless, of course, you consider "racism" not being handed success for free and without effort.

Is it any wonder that black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean who come to America are far more successful in achieving a higher education and pulling down a higher median household income than blacks who are born in America? Hmm, I wonder... is it because the black immigrants haven't been taught practically from birth by leaders in the black community of America they aren't responsible for their own fate? That the immigrants have been taught how hard you work is far more important to success than the color of your skin instead of "white racism and privilege is keeping us down"? Or do those awful white people sit around going, "Here comes a black American! QUICK! To the discrimination-mobile! Oh, you're from Africa? Please accept my apologies, and welcome to the exclusive club my good man. Would you like a country club membership sticker?"

You certainly can't make the argument that African immigrants are some how from a more "advantaged" background. Some secret fraternity of "white racism" hasn't impacted Afro/Caribbean immigrants from achieving educational and financial success. Point of fact, Afro/Caribbean immigrants on average stay in school longer than whites, and there lies the secret to their success: effort. The real "privilege" in America is that of people willing to work for it. The median household income of Americans breaks down as such:

$33,500 for black Americans
$37,600 for Hispanics
$40,000 for black Caribbeans
$40,300 for black Africans
$52,000 for white Americans
$64,000 for Asians

Opportunity is available in America equally for those willing to put forth the effort necessary to achieve it, so try and come up with something a bit better than that old notion of "white privilege"... it's so terribly antiquated. I think the ridiculous idea that blacks can't succeed "because those awful whites won't let 'em" would be news to Stan O'Neal, Chairman, CEO and President of Merrill Lynch, to Robert Johnson of BET, to Colin Powell, to Condi Rice and to the 49% of black Americans who are middle class or better... just to cite a few famous examples and some well timed statistics. The other 51% have only themselves to blame... if they'd get off the self pitying, Democratic handout plantation and take some responsibility perhaps opportunity would appear. That certainly isn't to say every black can have a ****ing Ferrari and a Learjet on standby... I think a good majority of poor whites would like to know more about this "white privilege" and where they can get some. If anything, there is more "Asian privilege" than anything else... and that's simply because they're willing to put in the effort us lazy whites and blacks aren't.

As far as "blacks having no racism towards mixed races"... do you get all your knowledge of the black community from watching movies like "Barbershop"? You seem to imagine all American blacks as part of some "uplifting, brotha and sistah" utopia. Of course they harbor racist views, towards mixed races, white races, Hispanics and so forth... just like every other race out there. Racism is usually closely connected to ignorance, and blacks certainly aren't immune to that by any means. Blacks are just as guilty of ignorance and racism as any other race. Or are we supposed to follow the old "white guilt" maxim that "now it's our turn" and ignore that racism is just as strong in blacks as it is in whites (and other races for that matter)?

Good racial relations aren't just "white folks job". Frankly, we have far bigger problems in this country than racism. I could really give two sh*ts what some ignorant white trash thinks about blacks or what some ignorant black trash thinks about whites, what ignorant latino trash thinks about whites/blacks and so forth and so on. Really, we have bigger problems. I experience racism from blacks all the time as a white... I'm not damaged. They call me white boy, I call them black boy, they call me honky, I call them n***er see, it works out. Everyone is fine. When we have a crumbling educational system, institutionalized political corruption that makes Tammany Hall era New York look squeaky clean and political divisions in America that makes segregation era America look unified... yeah, I think we have bigger problems than what prejudices people hold, and probably will hold, until the end of the bloody world.

You people really need to find a better hobby than talking about the "tragedy of racism" because you think it makes you sound all "concerned and socially conscious". The biggest problem with racism we have is whites being so scared of being called "racist" they won't even discuss issues involving someone of another ethnic group, whether those ethnic groups are completely wrong in their viewpoints or not. Without honest and thorough discussion ignorance stays the same and nothing ever changes, whether it be racism, immigration, affirmative action or any other issue that happens to involve someone of another skin color. Now, _that_ is a tragedy.

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To krdt:

While you meade some great points I have a feeling you do not know what "white privilege" is. You seem to look at that term as an ecomonic position. While I do feel this is an old-timey term and we probably are different ages, I understood white privilege to be the freedoms that "whites" experience just because they are "white"-----class,education,financial status usually have nothing to do with it. For instance, the freedom to walk around a store and not be followed or suspected of stealing, freedom from unnecessary police harassment, freedom from being charged higher interest rates and finance charges on an auto loan, freedom from being undermined at your job even though you are more articulate, competent, and hardworking than your white co-workers and subordinates etc. I have experienced all of this and many of my Latino friends have experienced this as well (These are just a few examples, and thankfully they are becoming less common) but I do not condone racism from any group.There are just some things in America that people of color face that whites do not and vice versa. It does not matter if your ancestors came over on the Mayflower or you just came over from Croatia. Sometimes when you are in a situation people will assume that the white person is just smarter, more honest, better educated etc. If I may give you a brief story about an incident in jr high that made me aware of how some peoplel place their racial perceptions on others. For a history class project we had to do a presentation on our family geneaology. This was before the internet! The class was predominately white, and a girl who gave her presentation discussed her family's Venezuealan heritage and told us some common expressions in Spanish. (The girl was a Black Latino)Our teacher kept cutting her off and acting like she did not believe the girl was of Spanish origin and stated she had vacationed in Mexico and saw no Blacks there. What one had to do with the other I do not know, but I speak Spanish and I informed the teacher that some expressions are more popular in Central and South America and not Mexico and vice-versa and she did not believe me. Now when a guy who was white came to do his presentation,he presented some rocks and dicussed his Cherokee heritage with little detail. Although he was blond and green-eyed and it was possible he had Cherokee heritage but his presentation was not well-presented, and the teacher did not contradict him or say he did not look like an American Indian! I could not understand why one would believe the guy was AI even though he did not have the "traditional look" but could not believe the girl was Lat. because she did not have a "traditional Latino appearance"Go figure. I guess my point is that you can't always think you know everything about a person and appearances are often deceiving as we all know now. Personally, I appreciate honest discussions and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
On another note I did not enjoy the movie---the pacing was off and the movie dragged to me. Anthony Hopkins was good though ---as usual.

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bocabonita_amh:

"For instance, the freedom to walk around a store and not be followed or suspected of stealing, freedom from unnecessary police harassment, freedom from being charged higher interest rates and finance charges on an auto loan, freedom from being undermined at your job even though you are more articulate, competent, and hardworking than your white co-workers and subordinates etc. I have experienced all of this and many of my Latino friends have experienced this as well (These are just a few examples, and thankfully they are becoming less common) but I do not condone racism from any group.There are just some things in America that people of color face that whites do not and vice versa"

Granted, these such things exist and most likely will exist while diversity and things 'we don't understand and therefore dislike' continue to be. Your points are no doubt valid, and in that I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was illustrating. I'm not arguing that racism from whites/blacks/latinos/etc. doesn't exist or that some races aren't treated differently or better in certain circumstances (and you can't say any one race is _always_ treated better, we have too much diversity in America to argue that consistently), simply that being white isn't any guarantee of success by any stretch of the imagination. That is what I would define "white privilege" to be. That any notion of "white privilege" as something preventing achievement, for any race, is really just a self imposed crutch, and while preconceptions based on race are something that likely shouldn't exist, they do. As I said in my previous post, racial prejudices can either be something annoying and unfair, or a reason to not even try in the first place. Certainly, there have been non-whites undermined at their job even though they are more articulate, work harder and so forth. On the same note, however, how many whites that are better educated and higher qualified have been passed over during the hiring process because of affirmative action? Let me clarify the above statement: I disagree with _any form_ of affirmative action. I think it's a racist policy at it's very core and an extremely dangerous precedent to set. If you can tell someone who they _can_ hire based on racial qualities, you can tell someone who they _can't_ hire based on racial qualities. Isn't the whole point to get past that petty nonsense? Besides that, how do we ever expect to eliminate prejudice when you have programs saying someone of this color should be hired and someone of that color shouldn't? Anyway, I digress.


I agree that police harassment is certainly a problem, certainly unfairly targeted toward non-whites, as I have plenty of non-white friends who can attest to such. At the same time, black/latino/etc. officers have treated whites differently as well, although I'll agree, not nearly as consistently as the other way around. There again, I never said there aren't problems from all races, preconceptions and prejudices are born from lack of understanding and ignorance... if you figure out a way to fix those little issues, by all means, let me know. These minor and, in some cases, major discriminations are by no means just non-whites job to bear. I know a white man that works under two black women who is constantly picked on and discriminated against because he's white. There are plenty of black/latino/etc. bosses that show favoritism towards their own race when hiring or in giving promotions. I've on many occasions experienced discrimination for no other reason than I'm white. As a recent example, I was attempting to change the pension check that my grandfather, who is quite senile and can't manage his own business anymore, receives from being mailed to him to a direct deposit into his account. I called the pension department and spoke to a black man, who on each successive call demanded more and more ridiculous paperwork. Each time I'd call, feeling sure I had met every _possible_ requirement, he'd dream something new up that "just had to be done". Finally, after several weeks of needless delay, and when he requested I send the trust account paperwork for "our lawyers to review and decide if it's properly worded", I realized he would continue adding requirements as long as I continued trying to get it done. I called and managed to get a supervisor (who I'm pretty sure was white, either way, someone who doesn't hate a person simply because they _are_ white) and discovered that a simple form was all I needed to fill out and fax back. It could have been done in one day. Annoying, but certainly not the end of the world. This sort of racism exists in _all races_. I've experienced numerous such cases of petty/annoying discrimination based on nothing more than a general hatred of someone that is white. Is it unfair? Sure. Does it prevent my functioning in our society? No. The truth of the matter is, very little major discrimination exists anymore. If you have the slightest bit of tangible evidence you were paid less or charged more, not hired or fired based on your race or religion you can throw a rock in any direction and find an organization that'll help you pursue your claim (in most cases, free of charge).

So, what is "white privilege" then, if not economic? If being white doesn't guarantee you a spot at the head of the line, how can it be called "white privilege" at all? These discriminations exist in all races and all walks of life, some endure more, some less, but no one is completely immune. If it's not preventing success, achievement or a better life, what is it? It's annoyance, it's unfairness. It's something we might wish didn't exist, but it does, because we live in the real world. Only in some idealistic, perfect world utopia would we be free of such things. More than likely there isn't a single human on earth that hasn't experienced discrimination of some sort based on their religion, race or class. That's just it in this country, we're so terribly sensitive. I think we've forgotten what _real_ hatred and racism is. You know life has gotten a little too easy in a country when being "offended" is the worst possible thing that can happen. I think many people look for and find racism where there isn't even any to begin with. In many cases the perception of racism is actually worse than the racism itself, and the preconception of everything being racist stops someone from trying far more than any real, tangible racism does. Sometimes people don't like other people and it doesn't have a *beep* thing to do with their skin color.

That's certainly not to imply that all racism/discrimination is imagined, or that we should just accept that racism is a part of life and just pretend it doesn't exist... not at all. However, as you said, it's becoming less common all the time. So, even if you don't define white privilege as an economic issue, it's hard to argue there is any institutionalized or widespread generalized discrimination anymore. Really, we're dealing with individual racism and ignorance, and I think it's quite unfair to just generalize and say "white privilege". There is just too much diversity of opinion to say any one race is, or has any real "privilege". You could put 10 whites in a room and likely get 10 completely different people and opinions, as with most any race. That's another charming pastime in this country, we love collecting and using our labels. If we can slap a label on something we avoid having to honestly and openly discuss it. It's so much easier to just say "white privilege" or "racism" and not have to give any further explanation or discussion (I'm not implying you did that, as you actually explained your definition of the term rather than "you're just wrong!" without any basis or explanation). The issue stays at a stalemate.

Whites are so mortified of even the hint they might be called a "racist", and these labels end up having to suffice for real, open debate. Many whites simply say what is "accepted" by politically correct society at large and then harbor their true opinions in private... whether they're racist in nature or not. People of color, non-whites, whatever happens to be the new politically correct label, in many cases, know full well that whites are afraid of confronting these issues and take advantage of it. So both groups, whether intentionally or not, end up hiding behind these labels and terms rather than actually confronting the real problems. That, to my mind, is more of an issue than the actual racism itself. Irrespective of who is right or wrong, if people don't openly and _honestly_ discuss their opinions and find reasonable compromises instead of just saying what's accepted by PC society, it's pointless to even discuss it. When double standards abound, on both sides, it's pointless to discuss it. When you're practically expected to be ashamed of being white, and when even the hint that you're, heaven forbid, _proud_ of your race/culture/history as a white is almost tantamount to admitting you're a Nazi... gee, doesn't that create animosity in and of itself? Until all races can admit equally their own culpability in the situation, of which we all have our own fair share, instead of just throwing around or hiding behind labels and baseless opinion passed off as fact, nothing will ever change. We as a society need to attempt the elimination of that small bit of racism left which is truly a problem and/or dangerous, recognize what's simply trivial ignorance or annoyance, and get on with our bigger problems.

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Title: Skin Tone Study Reveals Preference for Light-Skinned Employees
Date: Sunday, September 24, 200
http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/bawnews/skintonestudy925

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krdt, you nailed it.

The beauty is I'm learning how to face my beast ~ Blue October

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I completely disagree with your post. It was a well crafted screenplay, brilliantly executed by the entire cast. It most certainly portrayed the 'pain of racism' in American Culture in a way that resonates most personally with blacks, jews and whites.
The lead played by Hopkins was a very poignant exposure of the actor's vulnerabilities as was illustrated in his earlier works - 84 Charing Cross Road and Shadowlands come to mind. His performance was only bested by a hugely well casted Nicole Kidman. I have never seen her so lovely and genuine.
The musical score was hauntingly melancholy and yet also familiar. One wanted to know these characters and hear their stories.
As far as rhythm - well it's not Moulin Rouge or Chicago. It's a human drama. Life is messy and emotional, painful as well as full of joy. The fact that there are secrets in most families and people helps us relate to this story.
The casting was very credible. Wentworth Miller is mixed race, btw.
Yes it was *also* about race and class and political correctness and how it's become out of control. Too bad you were 'spooked' by this - it was the intention of the film to portray these concerns in our human life.

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Miller is of African, Jamaican, English, German, French, Dutch, Syrian and Lebanese descent.
(IMDB info)

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Miller is not half black, he is about 1/4 black but he identifies himself as half black, which is cool.

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Although at first I questioned the motives and veracity of a white writer appropriating this subject matter, after seeing the film AND reading the book AND also hearing / reading other people’s reactions to both, I very much appreciate Mr. Roth’s courage, vision and artistry. This film and book cast light on an area of black life about which many white people are purposely or circumstantially uninformed. (Note the many IMDB posts by folks who don't understand race and it's relation to skin color. )

In order to get us past our squeamishness about race and class, Mr. Roth had to cloak blackness and poverty in a fluffy white shroud. Any work of art that can start this kind of dialogue between people who wouldn't normally engage in it is worthwhile.

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[deleted]