I liked Michael well enough but

I completely agree with you that it is very hard for me to understand why Michael would be a favorited character. I can see very good reasons for favoriting anybody else on the cast, but Michael is very hard to make a case for in my opinion.

However, I think you may be being a little too harsh on Michael here. I wouldn't say that Michael has few morals so to speak, I think this all stems back to, as has been discussed by others and yourself, to immaturity. Your list of Michael's not-so-greatest hits is great btw, though hardly covers all of Michael's abhorrent actions in my opinion, and yes Michael's faux pas' do appear to stem from extreme selfishness, though extreme selfishness is a hallmark of immaturity just as much as not having morals.

For example, as to one of Michael's worst offenses, after he took a step back of course he regretted saying that Justin should have died, and he obviously didn't fully mean it when he said it. I think that shows that Michael does have a heart in there, he just has the emotional maturity of a 14 year old girl (or even younger). Young girls are notorious for lines like "I wish you were dead!" though they don't fully mean it, they are just immature and can't see beyond their own wants and desires to the bigger picture without being shown the way often due to their lack of maturity, but it doesn't mean they have few morals. And being embarrassed by your mother, yes as an adult that is just plain awful, but for a prepubescent teenager that is how they all usually feel.

To me it seems like most of Michael's faults can all be traced to an immaturity that is on par with that of a junior high or early high schooler. Some people do find immaturity endearing, and some, like myself, find it very unattractive and highly annoying. That may lie at the heart of the difference between those of us who love/can't stand Michael in my opinion.

Responce to Sunikota, post Nov 9 23:16:36
(Because these posts won't go where they're supposed to)




So Ted and Emmett were also "spiteful and immature" because they didn't react in the way they should have in regard to what Michael said about Justin. So what would have been the proper responce toward Michael by the others when they learned what he said?

And according to this poster, Brian can say things and not mean them yet everything Michael says Michael means. Guess it's another case of one rule for Brian and another for everybady else. And why does Michael actually have to say he didn't meant it for that to be the case. Does this mean anytime someone says something, that they do indeed mean just that unless other wise stated. If one is going to go on that, then what of Brian never having said he didn't mean all the things he said either. But perhaps since he is Brian, he is exempt from this as well. Also interesting is the idea that saying you wish someone dead means deep down you really want that person dead.

Hard to believe anyone can fault Michael for embarrassing his mother one time, when she practically made a hobby of embarrassing him. And the reason Debbie was there in the first place was part of another attempt to embarrass Michael.

As for Michael's harassing Melanie being in her best interest in his mind. Presumably meaning she didn't need his help. Think the program did a fairly good job of showing that Mel was not taking care of herself or her baby as she should have been. And didn't Mel indeed collapse with only Michael nearby to help? Had Michael not been "harassing" her, who knows what might have happened. Only "in his mind"? I don't think so.

Sounds here like Justin and Michael agreed to not talk about the cancer,followed by Michael almost instantly going to Brian and telling him that they knew. But the actuality is it slipped out during a crying jag. Since mentioning that Justin knew was an accident, don't see how Michael's respect or lack of it for Justin as Brian's partner is a factor. It's agreed that Michael did regret it and told Brian off for kicking Justin out. And if we are to go by the posters own rules, Michael always means what he says unless he specifically states otherwise. Therefore, it should also be agreed that Michael was truly sorry and did make a successful effort to fix the rift he caused between Brian and Justin. Yet his actions here are only considered to be efforts to "try to redeem himself". What would Michael have to do to actually redeem himself in this case?

Think your definition of few morals as it applies to Michale is unsound. True Michael doesn't think through his actions clearly. But that has to do with being impulsive, over emotional, even immature. But it has nothing to do with having few morals. And you say that Michael is selfish and only thinks about himself, but fail to see how anything in the above examples demonstrates this.

Are there better people to favorite? Brian did help people from time to time. But he was far more often the real selfish one in this universe, refusing for years to give his partner even the smallest of assurances that they had a secure relationship. And treating his best friend as an all purpose driver, sounding board, and companion who was to be at his beck and call. So many other people look over Brian's bad habits because he is beautiful. I do not. Justin, who tolerated Brian's distant attitude, then going in the opposite direction and publically cheating on him. Only to go back to Brian and the same distant attitude. Nothing to admire there. Emmett is intertaining, had some of the best lines, and didn't allow himself to be eclipsed by anyone. But there's really not quite enough of a whole person. Mel and Linds. Please. Debbie is a possibility, but found her equally annoying and admirable. But maybe. Ted would be a candidate had he not gone to work for Brian. Prior to that he had his own sense of himself despite his poor self image. Alas, after he came under Brian's thumb, the dynamic was ruined. Ben did come in to himself as a character to a small degree outside of being Michael's boyfriend. But I have this prejudice against people who eat no, or very little meat. So no, there are not better people to favorite.

Not sure what is meant by Michael treating Brian poorly or pouting because he ( Michael) never got his way. Michael rarely did get his way as far as Brian was concerned. And nearly every character on the show effected a pouty manner at one time or another, but it might have seemed to come from Michael more often because he had cause to complain more often. And any bad treatment Michael handed out to Brian couldn't compare to what Brian did to his best friend. In the very first episode Brian ditches his Michael, his practically permanent designated ride, to go off with an then anonymous trick. And this set the tone for Brian's treatment of his friend most of the time for most of the series. I always questioned why Michael put up with Brian.

As for Michael being rude to Justin, why wouldn't he be? Justin came along and moved into the boyfriend role Michael had long wished for. To think Michael would react any way than how he did is contrary to human nature. When much of this jealousy dissipated in season two, Michael and Justin got along for a time. But then Justin went and cheated on Brian, which of course caused Michael to come to his best friend's defense. And from mid season three til series end, Michael and Justin got along quite well.

With the exception of the fundraiser where Michael told Debbie she was embarrassing him, I never had a problem with how he spoke to his mom. Debbie was often out of line with her remarks and interference in his life. So there's no sympathy for her here.

Agree that Michael wasn't the only real choice for a father Mel and Linds had. Rejecting Justin because if his young age didn't make a lot of sense. And no reason was given at all for deciding against Ted or Emmett. But while it's true that choosing Brian might seem ideal and assure that the children would be related, it would never fly with Melanie. Melanie disliked Brian, resenting his hold over Lindsay and his continued presence in their lives. And this continued presence was due to his being the father of Gus, a condition that was forced on Mel by Lindsay. Melanie would certainly not want to have this happen a second time with her own child. The only thing that made no sense was that she'd actually consider it at all.

See you've finally managed to say something about Vince that didn't involved Michael, which is far more than anyone else has managed. But it did take a bit of coaxing on this end. Also noticed that neither you nor others who say they like Vince feel compelled to speak of him much on the UK boards.

Love him or hate him, Michael is discussed with some frequency on this and other US qaf forums, but very little is said about Vince on the UK boards. Viewers might like Vince, but his character doesn't really interest them much at all.