Did Donnie have to die? - Donnie Darko (2001) Discussion

[–] hal-9010 9 years ago

I am not sure Donnie ever understood his true part in the whole thing.

He is laughing hysterically in his bed because he now know that he brought balance back to the universe, and therefore he saved his mother, his sister, Frank and his love etc... he is not alone and by dying himself he also know that the future would not repeat itself as he was the catalyst to it all - or so he thinks. Remember in his counseling sessions his two primal emotions are love and a fear of dying alone. In the end he saves his loved one, and so as he dies right then he knows he is not alone. His sacrifice is ultimately to him also his salvation.

My answer to your question is; no, it would not matter if he died or lived. The universe was saved and could then go in any path it "wanted". However for Donnie and his divine knowledge, death was the relief her needed.

___________
** I am normally not a praying man, but if you are up there, please save me Superman **

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[–] imamaniac 9 years ago

Nice spoiler for people who haven't seen it. I'm not one of those people but still...have some decency.

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[–] tjejen 8 years ago

Dude. If you haven't seen the movie, DON'T GO ON THE MOVIE'S DISCUSSION BOARD!!! It's that simple. You can't ask people not to discuss it when the whole point of the board is to do precisely that. Jesus.

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[–] imamaniac 8 years ago

I already said I wasn't someone who hadn't seen it. I just don't think it's nice to spoil the ending for those who haven't and you can discuss a movie without giving away it's ending.

As for not going on a movie's discussion board if you haven't seen it? Well I generally follow that rule myself in case people do the above. Now relax your panties.

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[–] starlit-sky 8 years ago

imamaniac, I completely agree with you. Proper thing to do is not to use a spoiler in the title. It is incorrect to assume that only those who have seen the movie would enter the message board.

I just read another post on this thread where another user said something like "this movie is 15 years old, if anyone has not seen it it's their fault". That's an irrational argument. It doesn't matter how old the movie is, it only matters how old the viewer is. Somebody born in 2001 would be 15 years old now, and may see it today.

Anyways, IMDB is full of inconsiderate a-holes. And I think IMDB needs to do a better job policing the spoilers. The title of this thread is definitely a spoiler and against the rules. I would hate the idea of spoiling such a great movie for those who have not seen it.

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[–] rectorofdark 7 years ago

I don't think so. I wouldn't agree on Both of you. I also read on this board. However, I do this AFTER i watched that movie. If you already know that spoiler was everywhere, specially on this generation.. you already know that you can read any spoilers anywhere and you MUST be aware of that every time. You can control your hands and fingers don't you? You click this board? So it's your fault that you've got a spoiler. The best thing to do here was.... WATCH it first BEFORE going here, or avoid searching that movie that you might get a SPOILER. You can't please everybody, and you can't control the people who already watch this and have some questions like me.

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[–] Markor13 8 years ago

It has nothing to do with people not coming to a message board if they haven't seen a move, most people when they ask a question if it contains a spoiler they only ask part of the question in the title and then you have to click on the title to find out the rest of it. Anyway not trying to start an argument just proving a point that anyone is welcome to a message board and most people are considerate enough to not put a spoiler in a title.

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[–] beauferchaud 8 years ago

Plus this movie is almost 15 years old. If they haven't seen it then that's their fault. On a side note, everybody knows the famous Star Wars spoiler even if they haven't seen the movie. People need to know that when they search the Message Boards there's going to be some spoilers. Enter at you're own risk, bitches.

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[–] Stef_antique 8 years ago

Do not blame those that discuss the film on the movies message board. Actually makes you look like an absolute *beep*

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[–] imamaniac 8 years ago

You seem sweet. I wish you many film spoilers in your immediate future.

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[–] tjejen 8 years ago

I don't think it was a coincidence and that his part in the whole thing is just an accident. On the contrary, he's the one who causes it all by looking into the future, escaping death and putting the universe in imbalance. Ms Sparrow had the same powers as him but chose not to use them. The difference being that his destiny was to die, while hers was to stop him.

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[–] Markor13 8 years ago

I don't think he could have lived, I look at it like if he lived the world would have never balanced out.

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[–] emvan 8 years ago

As I understand the movie, two thinks are required to nullify a Tangent Universe and restore the Primary Universe. The Living Receiver needs to send the Artifact through the wormhole to the start of the Tangent Universe, and some act of free will needs to happen in conjunction with that in order to send the Primary Universe off on a different path.

Although I don't think it's necessary, in most cases it will be the Living Receiver themselves who makes a free choice at the moment the Univeres diverge.

But that act of free will could be anything. It just has to connect to the metal artifact. You could send a wedding ring back in time, with the result being that your self of 28 (or whatever) days earlier chooses to propose marriage rather than not (realizing that they were fixing the Tangent Universe at the same time).

That Donnie's choice was to sacrifice himself was unique. And necessary. And the thematic point of the movie and the source of its poignancy. Wishing that Donnie could have survived is a little like wishing that Boo Radley could have saved Jem and Scout without leaving his house. It's much happier on a surface level, but at the deeper level, that someone is willing to pay a great price to accomplish something good is ultimately more uplifting, because it tells us how good people can be. That it makes you cry instead of smile with relief is what makes it great.

Prepare your minds for a new scale of physical, scientific values, gentlemen.

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[–] soggybottom 8 years ago

No, he didn't have to die, and as a matter of fact, he didn't even die!

When you travel back in time, there becomes 2 of you (like Frank).

So when we see him dead at the end of the movie, don't forget that there's another one of him, and you'll find him alive and well on the golf course.

That's why he's laughing at the end. He was so afraid of having to die alone the whole movie, and as it turned out, he didn't have to die at all.

Alright Donnie! Now go re-introduce yourself to Gretchen and get yourself some!!!

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[–] kukident 8 years ago

The time-travel Frank was not "real" as you should know - he was only in Donnie's mind. The Donnie from the universe we see in most of the movie did not time travel, only the part of the plane was time-travelled by him - and otherwise the universe would be in imbalance again.

Donnie did not have to die though.

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[–] soggybottom 8 years ago

Interpret it however you like Kuki, but I like to think that bunny-Frank was real. How else would Donnie have known about Frank's bunny outfit? The Halloween party hadn't even happened yet. And did you forget when bunny-Frank introduced himself? He said he came from time-travel (and this was the first time the topic was brought up).

I guess you're saying that he's some kind of a psychic, which is possible--I guess. Anything's possible in this movie.

I AM glad that you agree with me that he did travel back in time at the end, so if it's possible for him to do it, would you agree that it could also be possible for others to do it (like gee, I dunno--Frank?)

Anyway, back to my main point, when you travel back in time, there becomes 2 of you.

So what became of the other Donnie in your interpretation?

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[–] kukident 8 years ago

Sorry to disappoint but I said that he did not travel back in time, the plane engine was the only thing sent back.

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[–] soggybottom 8 years ago

Then how could he be sure that it would go exactly where it needed to go if he wasn't right there with it? Is this some sort of "smart" plane engine that can figure this out on all its own?

And we clearly see him laughing at the end as if he knew what was happening all along. I take that as him thinking "Ha-ha, the time-travel worked, and I'm going to survive this after all!" Who would laugh if they knew they were about to die?

Had he NOT gone back in time, he would've been like everybody else, as if he woke up from a dream and wasn't sure what to make of it. But his reaction is totally different, showing that he knows a helluva lot more than everybody else in town.

Anyway Kuki, let's go along with your interpretation (since you could very-well be right). Would you at least agree with me that he SHOULD have traveled back in time?

That way there would've been 2 of him, and he WOULD have survived.

I should've been Donnie--I would've done this thing right! When you get a hot chick like Gretchen, you don't just give up on that winning lottery-ticket without putting up some kind of fight!

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[–] kukident 8 years ago

The official explanations added in the DC minimise the room for interpretation a lot. These explanations are not contradictory so they can be taken as

First of all, did he time travel? According to the philosophy of time travel pages this is said:

The Living Receiver is chosen to guide the Artifact into position for its journey back to the Primary Universe.

You asked how it would have been positioned correctly. I dont know why this is even in question, he positioned it during the storm - above his house - and sent it back. he would not have to be there on the primary universe for this to work correctly and also this sentence shows that he only sends the artifact back (not himself or anything else).

The Living Receiver is often blessed with a Fourth Dimensional Powers.

These include increased strength, telekinesis, mind control, and the ability to conjure fire and water.

He burnt the house, he flooded the school, smashed an axe into the bronze school mascot which - according to the people looking at it is not humanly possible. Not sure if any of this fits the description but it seems to come close, right? What he definitely seemed to have done was that in the end he used telekinesis to rip the turbine from the airplane. Also the quote says "often includes" which is not the same as "always has" - so even if he only has some powers it still fits. And it seems like he did sent back the artifact - again not himself, he was not even close to the portal.

The Manipulated Dead are more powerful than the Living Receiver. If a person dies within the Tangent Dimension, they are able to contact the Living Receiver through the Fourth Dimensional Construct.

You said Frank was time travelling - well then why does nobody see him and why can he be behind the mirror? It makes more sense that he haunts him somehow, and somehow the haunting happens before Frank dies in the TU - which makes sense if this was all guided / fate / predetermined.

When the Manipulated awaken from their Journey into the Tangent Universe, they are often haunted by the experience in their dreams.

This is not true for Donnie, he is a Living Receiver, not a Manipulated. When Donnie was sleepwalking to the golf court in the beginning, he was guided by Frank. This means the TU already started beforehand, and this is why Frank could haunt him. Frank saved Donnie's life in the TU. But in the PU nobody saved him. We dont know what Donnie remembered when he woke up or if he remembered anything at all - it is not explained and no hints are given.

From what it seems, he practically ended his own life (which was originally saved only in the TU), by sending the artefact back in time and closing the tangent universe. He did this to save Gretchen, which he loved, which was this "Ensurance Trap" as explained according to the philosophy of time travel book.

The question is what he was thinking when he woke up laughing. I think it was really stupid that he died because it made everything pointless. Gretchen's mother is still in danger, (and maybe she herself now as well!), bad people are still doing their thing.

The only explanation why he chose (there is no indication at all that he had to die!) to die would be something like that he is "not afraid to die alone anymore because he accepted god" religious mumble jumble which is cringey and silly. The Philosophy of Time Travel also has a similarly stupid ending in the book:

Ancient myth tells us of the Mayan Warrior killed by an Arrowhead that had fallen from a cliff, where there was no Army, no enemy to be found.

We are told of the Medieval Knight mysteriously impaled by sword he had not yet built.

We are told that these things occur for a reason.

This does not explain why Roberta Sparrow survived it. This seems like lazy writing to me.

The ending is sad for no reason. Donnie wanted to rescue gretchen and the others and for that he dies? And robert sparrow became nuts after she survived? What kind of unthankful evil "god" would do that, if this was meant to be a religious ending.

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[–] soggybottom 8 years ago

Thanks Kuki. That was actually a really-great post (not at all what I expected), and I admit that I'm wrong and you're right on pretty-much everything.

Boy, one thing that I can always count on in these boards is for someone to shoot my ideas all to hell and make he hate the movies that I'm really trying hard to like.

This means the TU already started beforehand

Well, I always thought that it started when the random jet engine came down, and that's why Frank came back at the exact right moment in time to save him (in his futuristic bunny outfit) and guide him on his journey, but since you shot that idea down, what do you think started the Tangent Universe?

And let's don't even get started on the goofy theory that the only way to save the primary universe is to drop a jet engine onto your house 4 weeks into the future from an alternate (tangent) universe to make up for ANOTHER jet engine which had been previously dropped onto your house by some unknown force. I've heard of "suspension of disbelief", but this is throwing any shred of possible belief completely out the window!

Are you with me on this one Kuki? What drugs was the writer on when he came up with this stuff?

And where can I get some?

The question is what he was thinking when he woke up laughing.

Well, he was obsessed with sex the whole movie, so maybe he was laughing over the fact that he was able to get a little nookie in the Tangent Universe?

The ending is sad for no reason.

Well, if you go by the assumption that he saved the world (which I'm guessing you do), it's actually a happy ending? And since Donnie has now solidified his place in heaven as a savior, there's no reason for him to go on living in this hell-hole of an existence any longer. He has successfully completed his mission in this life and is ready to move on to the next one.

But I'm totally in agreement with you on this that he shouldn't have to die just because God pulled a nasty trick on him with the whole "Let's throw a jet engine out of the sky onto this dude and see if he does the right thing to save mankind" nonsense.

I'd be all "Come on God--Let me go back to earth and bang Gretchen a few more times! I've earned it!!!"

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[–] kukident 8 years ago

First of all, I gotta admit I didn't come up with those explanations all by myself, I thoroughly read the pages of this philosophy of time travel book but still needed some additional help from donniedarko dot org dot uk, which tries to explain it as "official" as possible.

what do you think started the Tangent Universe?
No one gives an indication on that right? The book says the following:

Death comes to us all. The Fourth Dimension of Time is a stable construct, though it is not impenetrable.

So someone tried to time travel, maybe using a machine in the future and that corrupted something? Or it just happened randomly? Also I am pretty sure it is supposed to be called "Fourth Dimension of Spacetime" otherwise it sounds like dimensions 1-3 are time dimensions, which does not seem right and is probably not what the author meant.

And let's don't even get started on the goofy theory that the only way to save the primary universe is to drop a jet engine onto your house 4 weeks into the future from an alternate (tangent) universe to make up for ANOTHER jet engine which had been previously dropped onto your house by some unknown force. I've heard of "suspension of disbelief", but this is throwing any shred of possible belief completely out the window!
Yea, no one explains us where this jet engine came from. It is supposed to be an "indication" that a TU formed. From what I understood from the interviews with the director/writer, he came up with these explanations AFTER he decided there would be a jet engine out of nowhere etc etc. This is probably the reason why some things seem not logical or not as perfectly thought-through: he started with some interesting ideas and then tried to glue them together afterwards. A difficult task!
An important thing to consider is that if that thing didn't fell on his house, and it only did because and after the TU formed, donnie wouldnt have been in danger. Which means he was not doomed at all, he was not supposed to die, there was not supposed to be a cause of death out there, at least not in the real world (PU).

Back to the question of how sending the jet engine back makes sense:

The Living Receiver is chosen to guide the Artifact into position for its journey back to the Primary Universe.

This says "BACK" to the primary universe. I think this is bad wording. I woul understand it the way that "back" means it "came from" there in the first place. Clearly not the case. Instead they probably mean "back in time".
Otherwise it contradicts:

Artifacts returned to the Primary Universe are often linked to religious Iconography, as their appearance on Earth seems to defy logical explanation.

And also later it says "send back in time" regarding the artifact, so it is really just that.

Ok, so a duplicate jet engine falls on Donnie's house in the TU, no logical explanation exists for it being there, Donnie has to send it back to safely close the TU (because it is totally not cool to have artefacts in the TU, but you can totally have magical random duplicates in the PU, derp), he sends it back, now it is there and all is good (except Gretchen's father might still kill her mother and no one protects her, donnie dies for no good reason, etc etc, but hey the world is saved right!)
Yes it sounds like absolute bollocks. And the explanation for this is basically given on the last page:

Ancient myth tells us of the Mayan Warrior killed by an Arrowhead that had fallen from a cliff, where there was no Army, no enemy to be found.

We are told of the Medieval Knight mysteriously impaled by sword he had not yet built.

We are told that these things occur for a reason.

Sorry, Mr. Writer/Director, I only believe things if there is a logical explanation for them, not just because somebody told me "it occurs for a reason". This sounds like a very religious approach to me.

On the other hand, Richard Kelly (director/writer) does not strike me as particularly religious, he rather seems like a typical "progressive" (no offense), e.g.: https://twitter.com/JRichardKelly/status/635314012121468928

Also looking at the depiction of religious people in the movie it does not seem like he is too fond of zealous believers. For example the teacher who teaches about fear/love and is a terrible person in general. On the other hand he brings so much "god" and religion into the writing that it makes me think he still believes in god (catholic?) even though he might not be going to church etc.

But most importantly, for all we know this "god" or "divine force" could just have created the TU, steered the Manipulated Beings and practically killed Donnie, only for the sake of converting him beforehand. As the psychologist said: he is an agnostic, he doesnt accept god. As if he had to. And the whole "dying alone" thing. It is like this divine being is pressuring him to accept its existance for the sake of Donnie not being alone when he dies. Utter bollocks. What kind of sick divine being would be so needy that it would torture all those people and murder Donnie for the pure sake of having a +1 believer. You know who is really lonely, sad and has emotional problems? This divine being. I mean seriously now! Just thinking about it makes me mad at that "god". Now if this is what the writer/director meant to portray then - that is just weird.

You know how I would have ended it?
He wakes up, laughs like he does, but then walks out of bed (no Frank involved) feeling like he should (rather be safe than sorry). He would go to R Sparrows house and say some words to her. She would , next to other things, tell him she feels like she is passing away and will then die with him being around her therefore not dying alone. This experience and the whole TU story would mark Donnie's transcendence from being an angsty teenager into not having fear (enough death experiences in TU and PU) and would have gotten over his sexual issues (since he lost his virginity in the TU). He would have less emotional issues. Now he can befriend Gretchen again although they both dont really know much of the TU anymore and one can assume she ll be protected from her murderous stepfather. He will of course also not be as bold and cool as in the TU, since he has no "powers" anymore and no one feeding him the feeling he did (Frank). To me the whole TU story is a metaphore on being a teenager and becoming an adult: the whole insecurities, inferiority towards bullies, trying to be smart towards teachers that are dumb (and also to teahcers that are smart and failing in that case :) ), being interested in relationships, and a lot of fears and anxieties. So killing him at the point he could have entered the path of becoming an adult seems stupid to me.

To summarise, the whole story to me is about teenage angst, insecurity, weird school experiences, and so the death at the end simply makes no sense and is sad for no good reason. I like my ending much more because it would also tie up R. Sparrow's story in the PU, otherwise she would be checking her mailbox for.. well... for nothing, till she dies. No one will send her anything in the PU. If this is about a divine being, this divine being is manipulative and evil.

Now let us get to some excerpts from interviews with richard kelly:

Did Donnie make the choice to go back into his room and die when the airplane engine hit?

Well, the film is about what happens when he decides to get out of bed. You saw what happened when he got out of bed.

What we saw when he got out of bed was what the manipulated beings did to force him to save the world. The deaths were part of this. This had nothing to do with Donnie's actions. And he read the goddamn book, so he should know! Imo, R. Kelly is contradicting himself here.

What was Donnie's journey supposed to convey?
I think in the end it's all about meeting the girl, getting laid, saving the girl, sacrificing yourself to save the girl (laughing). Studio executives can understand that.

And leaving the girl with her single mom, an abusive killer-stepdad out there and no guarntee she will be safe in the future. *golf clap* for this explanation. I hope he was being sarcastic here. This also means he means Donnie died - there is no duplicate time-travel Donnie out there in the PU.

What message did you intend to have people get out of this film?
Ultimately the film is critical of the public school system. That's probably me saying the public school system sucks.

I think he got that point through very well, but the whole divine being, and mystery stuff part failed substantially.

so maybe he was laughing over the fact that he was able to get a little nookie in the Tangent Universe?
Lol, sadly this is a more plausible explanation than any of the smart endings the writer could have gone with.

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] MuffCabbage (399) 3 years ago

You're a tool

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