MovieChat Forums > Mansfield Park (1999) Discussion > Lesbian subtext between Fanny + Mary IS ...

Lesbian subtext between Fanny + Mary IS in the novel text


In 1814 England, it was not an option for Jane Austen to write her version of Brokeback Mountain....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCOtanyEqAQ

....so she wrote Mansfield Park instead:

http://sharpelvessociety.blogspot.com/2013/02/following-clues-to-lesbian-vibe-between.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-rYHTEFo6w

(start watching from 1:10 forward in that clip)

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It must be a "subtext" because I read every word of the book and never got that impression.

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If you read my posts first, and then read the novel, you might be surprised at what pops out at you.

THanks for responding in any event

ARNIE

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Well in the film it is quite implicit in one scene, when Mary helps Fanny to undress.
For one moment I expect that she kisses Fanny on the shoulder (for beginning).
Greetings from Lisboa – Portugal

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I love Austen very much, and I love her books more than any other books in the world. However, I think some people are getting way too obsessed with Austen and her genius that they simply insist on dragging her to this era and completely remove her from own era's morals, ethics and opinions. They simply can't accept that she may have thought differently from them. And so they start finding "hidden meanings" and "clues" and come with the most outrageous interpretations.

What makes me wonder is, if they think Austen so cleverly hid her meaning so well, what do you think was the use of writing it in the first place. No one in her era understood these hidden meaning. Did she write it thus, so that people would discover the "hidden meanings" two centuries later?

Maybe you should try to really read Austen's words and listen to what she's trying to say for a change, and stop looking for a stray sentence here or there to justify your crazy interpretations.

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they simply insist on dragging her to this era and completely remove her from own era's morals, ethics and opinions...No one in her era understood these hidden meaning.

To claim that Austen's generation had no knowledge of same-sex attraction and activity is off the mark. Especially in the upper classes, this was a known part of ordinary life, from what young men experienced when sent off to school with other boys to the "passionate" friendships women could form between themselves, exalting each other with poetry and flowers, and caresses.

Part of the reason for these outpourings was because the sexes were so divided, and thought to be completely different from each other. They really did inhabit different worlds and activities. In that very regimented world of gender isolation, it's completely natural that affection and tenderness found outlet in the people who surrounded you almost exclusively....those of your own sex.



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I think this is the right answer. In addition to the kind of soft-focus "lesbianism" surfacing as a result of gender segregation and sublimated same-sex sexuality, there were actual lesbians as well. Given that marriage in the upper classes was still significantly about semi-arranged marriages focused on dynastic and financial advantage and not romantic love, even a lot of heterosexual marriages were about producing an heir and a spare and not much more. So its likely that upper class closeted lesbians would have been more present in society because escaping marriage wasn't really an option socially or financially.

So you probably had both "frustrated" single women with no/limited sexual outlets and women who were lesbians circulating in the same circles operating in a highly gender-segregated world. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that resulted in a certain amount of sexual intimacy, in addition to there probably being secretive and covert networks among actual upper class lesbians, too.

I haven't read the books, but the relationship between Mary and Fanny seems not unlikely to have been one where same-sex relations of some kind would have resulted. A true upper class woman like Mary who was possibly a lesbian would find a woman like Fanny, who lived in but was not of the upper classes and thus had fewer options for both marriage and sexual outlets, an ideal potential lover. You could also argue that Mary's willingness to marry the second-in-line heir who wanted to become a clergyman wasn't just a conniving path to the inheritance, but a desirable least-worst path for a woman who preferred the company of women since it would likely be less sexually demanding because Edward was something of a weaker personality overall.

It was also normal for higher class women to have less fortunate women of higher class as essentially paid companions. Such a situation being taken advantage of as a covert means of carrying on same sex relations by seems likely.

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I think you see what you want to see and have your own agenda.

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