Part of the reason David Ruffin was fired by the Temps was because he started to demand that the group's name be changed to David Ruffin and the Temptations.
Does anyone out there think that his demand was justified? He did, after all, sang lead on most of the group's hit records during the 60s.
No and I am glad it never was changed. Sure David sang on a lot of the songs but so did Eddie so would he have a right to change it to Eddie Kendricks and the Temptations? And especially since the group came about before David even joined. I don't think David really had a right to even suggest it. I LOVE the Temptations though they are my favorite group and I am glad it stayed just the Temptations.
shareNo, the name of the group should not have been changed. I don't know if DR sang the most or not. I never counted. I do know that each of them had a great voice which can be heard in most of the songs. They covered the range of male voices from basso to high tenor. One of the things I enjoyed was wondering who was going to be the lead on a new release. My personal favorite was Eddie Kendricks.
I think that Smokey Robinson's name was put in front of the Miracles because no one else did any lead singing in that group. And, the word at the time was that Diana Ross wouldn't ALLOW the other two Supremes do any lead singing.
Does anyone remember a t.v. show from about 10-12 years ago called the 25th anniversary of Motown? I wish they would play that again. I tried searching it on this site but couldn't find it. I probably have the title wrong. I enjoyed it so much and would really like to see it again.
One of the best concerts I attended in the 70's was the Miracles "farewell concert". It included Aretha Franklin, Al Green, et alia. The Miracles performed last and tore the house down. Great, great, great! Unfortunately, I never saw the Temptations perform live.
Thank God for "click to ignore".
DR did sing the lead on the majority of hit songs by the Temps during the 60s. He was also the front man of the group during all of their performances, which is why I thought he deserved specific name billing.
Actually "Motown 25" aired in 1983 nearly 30 years ago, and I think no one over 30 could forget that show, as it was a classic. It marked Michael Jackson's debut of the "moonwalk."
Please click on
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0250595/board/threads/
for the 1983 television special "Motown 25: Yesterday, Today, Forever".
How dare you ask that question. :)
No one is bigger than the group, even if no one came out here to see Otis.
I apologize for grammatical errors- a side effect of IMDbing on my iPhone.
"No one is bigger than the group"
Yeah, that's what Otis said to David. But the irony of it all was that if "no one is bigger than the group," why was it that when the group first started they were named "Otis Williams & The Distants"? Otis was a hypocrite.
But the group was NEVER named Otis Williams and The Temptations.
shareYou're entirely missing the point, ebbshoney.
shareNobody's going to agree that the name of the group should have been changed to David Ruffin and the Temptations. David Ruffin was probably one of the most dynamic vocalist of his era and this is coming from a 20 year old, but David wanted the group changed to his name for the purpose of ego. David was not an orginal member and had a different contract than the group. It's almost like Johnny Gill coming into New Edition and wanting the group to be called Johnny Gill and New Edition because he was the better vocalist. I just want to clarify I'm not comparing the groups, just the scenarios. Otis was not wrong for telling him that the name of the group should remain The Temptations. I was not missing the point when I said that if Otis Williams, who founded the group, didn't get top billing neither should someone who joined the group after it was already established. After David Ruffin left and Dennis Edwards joined the group, do you think the name of the group should have been called Dennis Edwards and the Temptations?
shareDude ... all I'm saying is that it was hypocritical for Otis to make the statement to Ruffin that "No man is bigger than this group" in regard to individual name billing. When the group first started out as the Distants, Otis obviously thought he had more stature than the other group members.
But Otis knew that he could have never made the demand for specific name billing with the Temps after they became successful, because he knew that he didn't have leverage to do so. The truth is that he was the most dispensable member of the Temps, and he also knew that if he made this demand for a name change, Gordy and Motown would never have acceded to it.
By contrast, Ruff was the group's most indispensable member. This was evidenced by the fact that he sang lead on the majority of the Temps' hit records during his tenure with the group. And contrary to Johnny Gill w/The New Edition, the Temps became successful and established only AFTER Ruff became a Temp.
I'd like to point out too that after Edwards replaced Ruff, Motown intentionally changed the group's vocal arrangement. Unlike Ruff, who exclusively sang lead on most of the Temps' hit records during the 60s, Edwards shared lead vocals with the other group members on most of their songs during the 70s. In Ruff's case, there was justification for a name change. He was 'the man" and the heart of the group.
I completely agree with you and I also think your New Edition example is perfect, I get exactly what you mean as I've thought the same thing.
It was not really hypocritical of Otis simply because the name of the group was never Otis Williams and The Temptations. So there was no chance for Otis to be hypocritical as that had happened years before David even came along. People change, conditions change. Also as it was said David was not there from the beginning and if Otis honestly felt David was using the group to get his solo career off and going, then it's understandable for him to not want the name change since he was a newer member and in his eyes someone who has only HIS best interest in my mind. And this is coming from someone who thinks Otis WAS hypocritical, overbearing, and just flat out wrong at times. But not all of the time, not on this issue.
As to the title question...no, end of story. That just doesn't make sense.
No, because it's unfair to Paul Williams and ESPECIALLY to Eddie Kendricks.
Besides, the idea of the group was that it worked as a unit, not as a lead singer with backup like The Supremes or Gladys Knight & the Pips.
Then why did Ruffin sang lead on most of the Temps' records, particularly the ones that became major HIT records? Also, why was Ruff always the front man, with he other four Temps serving as background singers, as evidenced by this film clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyaJnbQfcX8
Although I thought Paul was a talented vocalist and dancer, I personally think his singing ability was overrated. Eddie sang lead on a few hit Temptation records, but just tell me one hit Temptation record that Paul sang lead on.
RUffin sang lead on most of the group's singles during that 1965-68 period because the producers and record label wanted it that way. It is important to note that he did not sing lead on all of them - Between the release of "My Girl" at the end of 1964 and Ruffin's firing in June 1968, Eddie Kendricks sung lead on two of the singles (both hits), Paul Williams on one ("Don't Look Back", not a pop hit but a popular tune with the R&B audience), and the B-sides were always up for grabs.
Also, Ruffin was not the group's frontman. In concert, the leads were more evenly distributed, with Paul, Eddie, and Melvin singing their specialties (Paul's renditions of "Don't Look Back" and "For Once in My Life" would stop the show in ways neither Ruffin nor any of the others ever could).
Hit Temptations records that Paul sung lead on would be the ones where he, Dennis, Otis, Melvin, and Eddie shared the leads by each taking a part or a line - "Cloud Nine", "Run Away Child, Running WIld", "Don't Let the Joneses Get You Down", "I Can't Get Next to You", "Psychedelic Shack", and "Ball of Confusion". It is also important to point out that Paul's performance of "For Once in My Life" on the TCB television special in 1968, which was almost definitely the highlight of the program.
I have heard different things about this and one of them was that the name change was not really David's idea. Increased marketing is the best reason for such a thing but I could never really see any advantage to changing this group’s name. One of the best things about this group was hearing the different voices at key moments when just the right songs permitted shared collaborations. “Runaway Child Running Wild”, for example featured all the voices being expressed.
shareIn response to the above question, let me answer it quite emphatically:
Not just no, but HELL NO!
David Ruffin was not a standout member of The Temptations, as every member of "The Classic Five" was a star in his own right. Sure it's true Ruffin sang the fair share of leads, but so did Eddie Kendricks. Paul Williams sang at least one or two leads on earlier Temptations songs, such as "I Want A Love I Can See". It took every member to make the group an outstanding troupe. If the group had changed their name to "David Ruffin & The Temptations", it would have been a major mistake. There were no stars in this legendary group, as every member got to display their vocal talents evenly.
Larry Appleton: "I have..."
Balki Bartokomous: "Oh, God!"
Larry Appleton: "...a plan!"
Those shared collaborations (coincident with Dennis Edwards joining the group) were Norman Whitfield's direct rip-off of the style of Sly and the Family Stone. And as long as I'm on my soap box, I think Sly is tremendously underrated. His group's innovative style influenced not only the "later" Temptations but really led to entire forms of music such as disco and eventually rap/hip-hop. And yet what he's best remembered for now is being late for or a no-show at concerts.
shareThe reason for the name in front of the group was Berry Gordy collecting fees for both the names and the groups. In the case of The Supremes, he was preening Ross for her breakout career and also getting the double fee.
As far as Ruffin, what I glean from the movie was that his head was kind of inflated on thoughts of himself being "The Temptations". As we saw, they did just fine before and after him.
Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...share
Well, they didn't exactly do "fine before him." The truth is that when the Temps first started as professional singers, they had struggled for two years trying to get a hit. It was only after Ruffin joined in 64', replacing Elbridge Bryant, that their fortunes changed. But yes, I do admit that when Edwards replaced Ruffin the group didn't miss a beat.
shareWhat I mean is that they got to Motown without Ruffin.
Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...share
But Dude ... they didn't become successful until AFTER Ruffin joined the group. As I said before, after they were signed by Motown they struggled for two years trying to get a hit record. The frustration over their initial misfortunes were so great that it caused friction within the group and incited Bryant to physically attack Paul Williams backstage during one of the group's performances. Bryant was immediately canned, and Ruffin replaced him that very night and the rest of course is history. (This was all depicted in the movie.)
But the fact is that the Temps did not become successful until after Ruff joined the group. Even though they did manage to have Motown sign them before Ruff, it's most likely that had it not been for David Ruffin, Gordy would have dropped the group from the label because of their lackluster record sales.
While I haven't read the entire history of all the behind the scenes politics of Motown at the time(my apologies to a previous poster whose post I only skimmed regarding Berry Gordy's collecting money based on the name), I've always wondered if one of the reasons (if not the primary one) David Ruffin didn't get top billing was due to his poor behavior as time went by. From what I've read about Ruffin he was initially a nice guy when he joined the group and then after they became successful he turned into a jerk - riding in a separate limo that had his trademark glasses painted on the side instead of the group limo, started missing rehearsals and shows, became a drug addict (perhaps the reason why he missed those rehearsals?), etc. He also reportedly clashed with Berry Gordy over wanting an accounting of his money and the group's money.
This kind of behavior may very well have been a factor in not giving him top billing (though we can't really fault him for wanting to double check his money). Now if Ruffin hadn't turned into such a jerk he might have, not saying definitely but might have had a more sympathetic response to his request for top billing.
Or not. I'm just tossing an idea out there.
[deleted]
David Ruffin was very talented....HOWEVER,
David Ruffin didn't deserve top billing b/c it takes more than talent to sustain that and he wouldn't have been able to handle it. He couldn't even get show up to performances. He didn't want to put in work to back-up his talent and he fell victim to his own damn ego. Missing rehearsals & performances for coke binges? Tf?
Talent does not equal professionalism. And talent does not make you invincible.
Also, in another post you mentioned the fact that other great singers died b/c of drugs....So?
~~You can't fire me!~~
Nope.
When David joined the group, they were already branded by Motown as the Temptations. During those years a lot of groups named the lead singer with "and the..." ex: Diana Ross and the Supremes, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Martha Reeves and the Vandellas and the list goes on. David Ruffin, although he did have 'the voice' but he also had a big ego.
A lot of that was explained in David Ruffins Unsung episode. I hope TVOne shows it again soon.
If anyone has seen the Jacksons American Dream series (which I'm sure almost everyone on this board has, lol) Joe Jackson stated how displease he was with Diana Ross when she introduced his sons as Michael Jackson and the Jackson 5. His claim was there wasn't any 1 star in the group. This was a similar statement made by Melvin after David took to the stage to perform Aint too proud to beg.
If anyone in the Temps were to named, IMO it should have been Paul Williams. He had sung a few leads, did choreography (before Cholly Aikens was hired to train them) and he was there when they first went in to Motown for the audition. In other words, he brought more to the table than what Ruffin did.
When life gives you lemons, make apple juice and let the world figure out how you did it!
Not at all, else:
Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones
John Fogerty and Creedence Clearwater Revival
Jim Morrison and the Doors
The Lennon/McCartney Band
Peter Cetera and Chicago
Danny Hutton and the Three Dog Night
Levi Stubbs and the Three Tops
While some groups went that way, I think most STARTED with the Joe Public and the Rest mode. Once exception of note was The Supremes changing to Diana Ross & The Supremes.
Anyway, the rest of the group was right in telling him no, especially since he came upon the scene well after they formed. (bringing them greater glory or not)
"Once exception of note was The Supremes changing to Diana Ross & The Supremes."
And that alone would have been enough to justify the name change and give Ruffin specific name billing. The Supremes were after all the de facto sister group to the Temps. If Gordy could do this for Diana, he could have done so for Ruff.
You wrote a great post. You are obviously knowledgeable about music.
I once saw John Kay & Steppenwolf in concert. I think they started using that name because there had been a bogus version of Steppenwolf touring without original frontman John Kay.
The Animals became Eric Burdon and the Animals in 1966 after the other original members had left the band.
I don't think the Tempts should have changed their name to David Ruffin & The Temptations. Sure, he sang a lot of hits and was very popular. But other group members sang lead vocals and made other contributions. Diana Ross was pushed to the front of the Supremes because of her personal relationship with Berry Gordy.
I'll add my .15 and say it wouldn't of worked and I think the group itself would've broke up eventually over it,...and you Know why?
As Great a Talent as he was, he was a head case and make him the Leader of a Group and you have a Group being lead by a Head Case.
If he were Top Billing over the rest of the Group that would mean he Ran the Group,..which he would've,..into the Ground.
A Once in a Lifetime Lead Singer, doesn't make you a Leader.
Diana Ross was pushed to the front of the Supremes because of her personal relationship with Berry Gordy